'What are your intentions'

[tmmorris]

Lining up for departure yesterday was told 'Message from ATC supervisor: cloud base now 900ft, what are your intentions?' Usually this is a veiled warning... isn't it?

Situation: the ATIS had just reported an improvement in the cloudbase from 900ft to 1600ft, which I discussed on the booking-out call. I was planning an IFR navex round some beacons and back for an ILS. Procedure minimum on the ILS is 200ft but as I am IMC rated I stick to the recommended minima of 500ft for precision approach. As viz was 5000, I was well within the IMC rating departure minima.

Any idea why I might have been asked this? I think I might have to phone the tower and ask! I don't think I was doing anything wrong (and was not greeted with 'please phone the tower' when I returned, either).

Tim

[Lock n' Load]

Were you departing VFR? If so, the call is standard in the UK when departing or entering control zones (Class D ones anyway) if the cloud ceiling (not base) drops below 1500'. If you were departing IFR, no idea why they'd make the call. We're not aircops!

[360BakTrak]

Was this at Oxford by any chance?

[tmmorris]

Not Oxford, but yes, departing VFR, though only because they'd refused an IFR departure when I booked out! (Presumably didn't want to have to stop the flow of incoming IFR arrivals to separate me, as I was wanting the northern SID and we were on a southerly, and I guess I would have had to be separated...)

Oh well. As I said, if I'd done something wrong I'd have expected to be asked to phone the tower, so Lock n' Load is probably right.

Tim

[Lock n' Load]

tmmorris said... "so Lock n' Load is probably right."

It had to happen sometime! :ok:

[Wee Jock McPlop]

LnL

When you were training me, you were always right!! At least thats what you said!! :E

[withins]

INTERESTING DISCUSSION, ALTHOUGH IF YOU WERE INTENDING TO DEPART VFR AT OR BELOW 3000FT AMSL IN C,D,E,F&G AIRSPACE THE DISTANCE FROM CLOUD CRITERIA IS "CLEAR OF CLOUD AND IN SIGHT OF THE SURFACE".
ie IT COULD BE 6KM BKN008 AND YOU COULD STILL DEPART VFR, ONLY IF THE VIS. FALLS BELOW 5KM WOULD YOU NOT BE PERMITTED TO DEPART VFR AND THEN ASKED IF YOU REQUIRE AN IFR OR SVFR CLERANCE ALTHOUGH IF THE WEATHER WAS AS ABOVE AND I KNEW THAT THE PILOT WAS A PPL OR WAS FAIRLY INEXPERIENCED I PERSONALLY WOULD, AS LOCK AND LOAD SUGGESTED REMIND THE PILOT OF THE CURRENT CLOUD AND CHECK HE WAS HAPPY TO DEPART.

ALSO IF HE WAS DEPARTING F&G AIRSPACE BELOW 3000FT AMSL AND WAS AN A/C OTHER THAN A HELICOPTER FLYING AT 140KT IAS OR LESS THE "CLEAR OF CLOUD AND IN SIGHT OF THE SURFACE" STILL APPLIES BUT THE MINIMUM FLIGHT VIS. CRITERIA IS ONLY 1500M!:bored:

[Lock n' Load]

Withins - the "what are your intentions" call is not a suggestion that the weather is below limits (though I seem to recall the MATS Pt 1 disallowing VFR departures and arrivals to aerodromes in Class D control zones when vis is below 5000'). It is simply a requirement to ask it when the vis or ceiling drop below certain levels, even though VFR flight is still permitted below those values.

[TATC]

below 3000ft VFR is still allowed with cloud ceiling 600ft or above if flying at 140kts or less and the aircraft is not a helicopter. ( MATS Part 1 terminolgy has replaced fixed wing aircraft with "aircraft other than a helicopter", I guess this is to include balloons which obviously don't have wings)

Doesnt the MATS part 1 also state that pilots must be asked their intentions when the cloud ceiling drops below 1500', because of the level and speed restrictions which permit VFR flight in such circumstances

You could have said when asked your intensions that you wanted IFR, but would probably have been delayed, or when airborne you could have requested an IFR clearance due weather. but that would make you unpopular with the ATC unit concerned, which in turn might lead to a less expeditous service in future.

[Dizzee Rascal]

Doesnt the MATS part 1 also state that pilots must be asked their intentions when the cloud ceiling drops below 1500', because of the level and speed restrictions which permit VFR flight in such circumstances

That is for operations from an aerodrome in a Class A/D.

I've got a question, hope you don't mind me hijacking the thread. You are an accredited MET observer and are working at an aerodrome in Class G, your official weather is 0700 RVR/0700 VV///. You get say, a PA28 call up with the latest ATIS information for a VFR departure to some where else. Clearly this is below the VMC criteria however; the MATS pt1 states that "the pilot of an aircraft is responsible for determining whether or not the meteorological conditions permit flight in accordance with visual flight rules". I would be very interested to know what others would do or have done in similar situations to this or indeed if others have had this situation!:uhoh:

[foghorn]

INTERESTING DISCUSSION, ALTHOUGH ...

You're burnin' ma eyes.

[withins]

INTERESTING? ALRIGHT - NOT REALLY THEN!. BUT I DO FIND IT SUPRISING WHEN I HEAR FELLOW ATCO'S INCLUDING THOSE WORKING AT AIRFIELDS WITH CLASS D AIRSPACE TELL A PILOT IN SAY A CHEROKEE WHO HAS BOOKED OUT VFR VIA A VRP NOT ABOVE 2000FT THAT HE IS UNABLE TO DEPART VFR WHEN THE WX IS 6KM BKN009 AND DELAY HIM FOR NO REAL REASON.:O

[squibbler]

Withins - notice you're new to the forum and probably new to computers. Typing in capital letters equates to SHOUTING.....so don't.

[withins]

SAY AGAIN!!!!!!!!!

sorry - is this better (I used to work in a library as well):(

[Chilli Monster]

BUT I DO FIND IT SUPRISING WHEN I HEAR FELLOW ATCO'S INCLUDING THOSE WORKING AT AIRFIELDS WITH CLASS D AIRSPACE TELL A PILOT IN SAY A CHEROKEE WHO HAS BOOKED OUT VFR VIA A VRP NOT ABOVE 2000FT THAT HE IS UNABLE TO DEPART VFR WHEN THE WX IS 6KM BKN009 AND DELAY HIM FOR NO REAL REASON.:O

Withins - may I suggest a quick bit of refresher reading?

VFR minima in a CTR(D) is 5km vis or 1500ft Cloud ceiling - cloud ceiling being defined as BKN or OVC. 6 KM / BKN009 would therefore require an IFR or SVFR clearance to be issued - not a VFR. "What are your intentions" is a pertinent request iaw MATS pt 1

Tim - when are you going to learn that when you fly from certain airfields "strange" things are going to be said. And as for refusing you an IFR departure - it's not ATC's responsibility to dictate the flight rules you fly under and they had no right to say what they did when you booked out. Might be worth mentioning to the club CFI so that it gets passed up the internal reporting chain.

[TATC]

That is for operations from an aerodrome in a Class A/D.[quaote]

you cant have VFR operations in class A airspace.

[quote]I've got a question, hope you don't mind me hijacking the thread. You are an accredited MET observer and are working at an aerodrome in Class G, your official weather is 0700 RVR/0700 VV///. You get say, a PA28 call up with the latest ATIS information for a VFR departure to some where else. Clearly this is below the VMC criteria however; the MATS pt1 states that "the pilot of an aircraft is responsible for determining whether or not the meteorological conditions permit flight in accordance with visual flight rules". I would be very interested to know what others would do or have done in similar situations to this or indeed if others have had this situation!:uhoh:


I know that for airfields in class D then the met vis at the aerodrome is taken to be the flight visibility for inbound/outbound aircraft and would therefor preclude VFR flight. I am not sure if the same rules apply to airfields in Class G, but I guess rationally they would and for safety sake they should.

[TATC]

Withins - may I suggest a quick bit of refresher reading?
VFR minima in a CTR(D) is 5km vis or 1500ft Cloud ceiling - cloud ceiling being defined as BKN or OVC. 6 KM / BKN009 would therefore require an IFR or SVFR clearance to be issued - not a VFR. "What are your intentions" is a pertinent request iaw MATS pt 1
Tim - when are you going to learn that when you fly from certain airfields "strange" things are going to be said. And as for refusing you an IFR departure - it's not ATC's responsibility to dictate the flight rules you fly under and they had no right to say what they did when you booked out. Might be worth mentioning to the club CFI so that it gets passed up the internal reporting chain.

below 3000ft IAS 140kts or less you can depart VFR if you are to remain clear of cloud and in sight of the surface - it could be broken at 800' and you can still go VFR so long as you can remain clear of cloud and in sight of the surface and not break the 500' rule

[withins]

Chilli monster - you are of course correct in quoting the 1500ft bit from the aerodrome services section of MP1, but so, you could argue is TATC. So sitting in a tower in class D airspace and faced with my cherokee scenario which bit of MP1 do you turn to, as one part says he can go VFR and the other says he can't! I would guess if you raised the point with other ATCO'S and/or LCE'S you might get quite a few different answers, slightly off the original posting but worth debating I think

[Chilli Monster]

So sitting in a tower in class D airspace and faced with my cherokee scenario which bit of MP1 do you turn to, as one part says he can go VFR and the other says he can't!
My version - not TATC's
MATS part 1, Section 2, para 4.2 (Effect of weather on operations - Class 'D' airspace). It's pretty non-ambiguous when you read it.

[I'm not joking sir]

So sitting in a tower in class D airspace and faced with my cherokee scenario which bit of MP1 do you turn to, as one part says he can go VFR and the other says he can't!

They're both right! MATS 1 doesn't say you can't go VFR it says:

4.2 Class D
4.2.1 ATC shall advise pilots of aircraft, other than helicopters, intending to operate under VFR, inbound to or outbound from aerodromes in Class D airspace, if the reported meteorological visibility reduces to less than 5000 m and/or the cloud ceiling is less than 1500 feet. ATC will then take the following action:

a) Request the pilot to specify the type of clearance required;

b) If necessary, obtain SVFR or IFR clearances from approach control.

4.2.2 Additionally, ATC shall not issue any further VFR clearances to aircraft, other than helicopters, wishing to enter the airspace for the purposes of taking off or landing at any airfield, situated within the Class D control zone, where the reported meteorological visibility is less than 5000 m. Procedures for operations into these subsidiary airfields will be found in MATS Part 2.

However if you then look at:

At or below 3000 ft amsl
Class F and G airspace Clear of cloud and in sight of the surface 5 km
For aircraft, other than helicopters, flying at 140 kt IAS or less
Class C, D and E airspace Clear of cloud and in sight of the surface 5 km

you'll see it is actually still possible to go VFR. If the cloud ceiling falls below 1500 ft then you're just following the book when you ask what clearance is required. If you happen to be able to go below 3000ft and cruise at less than 140kts then good for you, off you go.

[Lock n' Load]

So, summing up....
Assuming a Class D CTR.
If vis < 5000m and/or ceiling < 1,500 ft, ATC must ask the intentions of a pilot wishing to enter the CTR to land, or wishing to depart the CTR.

If vis < 5000m, VFR is not available to an arriving or departing aircraft (though it is to an overflight subject to his compliance with VFR).
If ceiling < 1,500 ft VFR is available subject to the aircraft being able to comply with VFR, and one would assume one wouldn't give a VFR clearance is the ceiling is so low as to preclude SVFR!

Clear as mud. :ok:

[tmmorris]

Chilli, I think I'm still finding out what the odd things are, and still scared of upsetting ATC by getting things wrong! The club is there on sufferance, after all. Still, there are plus points (like being cleared to land, 'one on', today, which saved a go-around)...

Tim

[Dizzee Rascal]

I know that for airfields in class D then the met vis at the aerodrome is taken to be the flight visibility for inbound/outbound aircraft and would therefor preclude VFR flight. I am not sure if the same rules apply to airfields in Class G, but I guess rationally they would and for safety sake they should.

Sadly, rationally they don't, I STRONGLY agree, THEY SHOULD!:uhoh:

[TATC]

So, summing up....
Assuming a Class D CTR.
If vis < 5000m and/or ceiling < 1,500 ft, ATC must ask the intentions of a pilot wishing to enter the CTR to land, or wishing to depart the CTR.
If vis < 5000m, VFR is not available to an arriving or departing aircraft (though it is to an overflight subject to his compliance with VFR).
If ceiling < 1,500 ft VFR is available subject to the aircraft being able to comply with VFR, and one would assume one wouldn't give a VFR clearance is the ceiling is so low as to preclude SVFR!
Clear as mud. :ok:

i was taught at the college that if cloud ceiling was less than 600ft then only IFR clearance could be issued because a pilot probably wouldnt be able to comply with the 500 foot rule and remain clear of cloud

[withins]

"If ceiling < 1,500 ft VFR is available subject to the aircraft being able to comply with VFR, and one would assume one wouldn't give a VFR clearance is the ceiling is so low as to preclude SVFR!

Clear as mud"

Although if working on a day with low cloud but good vis beneath, as does happen sometimes, and the wx is say 7km bkn005 does that mean although the wx is too poor to allow a SVFR flight (ie cloud ceiling is less than 600ft) does that mean somebody could "grope his way" out of the zone VFR using the "clear of cloud and in sight of the surface" argument.

Unlikely, as he would probably be breaking the 500ft rule of the low flying regs by sneaking out underneath the cloud. But could you stop him if he insisted on going apart from using the dreaded refusing take off phraseology listed in E(attach) pg7 of MP1 to cover your a :mad: e.

But if he still insisted on going would you clear him for take off? or use "GABCD there are no traffic reasons to affect your departure"

Lots of questions, but not many definite answers:confused:

[LordSven]

As an ATCO who has worked at a couple of GA aerodromes in class G airspace, I have myself, very occasionally, asked a customer "Gxx, the reported met visabilty is xxxm, which is below the minima for vfr flight, report your intentions". This is not to intimidate a pilot, or "police" the situation, it is to remind the (sometimes) inexperienced or (occasionally) overconfident aircrew of both the current weather and the vfr limitations. Just part of the duty of care and the purpose of the service; hopefully safe, orderly and expeditous! In this litigous world of ours, should anything happen to an unfortunate or unwary customer who got themselves into situation beyond their capabilties and I had not done everything I could to help protect their safety, then I would both feel and probably be held partly resonsible.