New FRI

[Prat At The Back]

Any word on a new FRI. I heard a couple of colleagues discussing this topic yesterday and was wondering how the lords and masters view the current aircrew exodus. How will they put an end to it. Is it just Sqn Ldrs they need or what?

[Roland Pulfrew]

I understand that FRI 3 is on its way as an attempt to stem the outflow of trained pilots. I believe that it will be carefully targetted so I would guess that you can expect it to be targetted at FJ and Helo mates and probably at Flt Lt rank. Sadly I am probably too old for this one :{ But then again this is a Rumour network and what do I know!:E .

[Prat At The Back]

Yep, that makes sense. Although on a not so recent trawl of SO2 jobs at Gp, PMA were appartly delighted that all posts were manned. Then someone advised them that 35% of those jobs were gapped with some mates having 2 or 3 portfolios.

[NoseGunner]

If anyone has any news/rumours on this can they post, please. Life-changing decisions to be made!

I'm assuming this is for 1 Apr 2007 onwards when the current system is due to end?

Thanks

ps in the spirit of PPRuNe I should add: My jets better than your jet, I'm more important than you, the army and navy are wothless and you dont have an opinion cos you dont know what I know.:hmm:

[NoseGunner]

Yep - but there is already a system in place for people with exit dates before 1 Apr 07 (£50k gross/£30k net). If your exit date is 1 Apr 07 or later you will currently get nothing for staying in, if I recall correctly.

Although we all know that if you work it out you will be much better off in the long run if you leave, there is a big temptation for people to take the easy option of do nothing - get 30 grand in your bank account.

[The Gorilla]

And don't forget of course, that if you are on an FRI now and they decide not to renew it you have three months to accept the change of conditions. If like me you decide not to, they cannot stop you from leaving at the end of that three month period. Not a lot of people know that!
Handy if you should have a job lined up..
:D

[Axial Flo]

Gorilla,
That is a very important bit of info. Where is it written down? If true it will directly affect my decision process in the next few months.
Flo

[Stressless]

FRI might be on the cards for FJ and blue coloured helicopter crew but in the green machine there are more aircrew than they know what to do with and that's not getting any better.

[NoseGunner]

On a general FRI point, I've never believed in paying everyone the same whether front seat/back seat/FJ/rotary/multi. Its expensive madness. If you're short of rotary mates for the next few years then rotary mates get the bonus, if you're short of navs(:eek: ) then they get the bonus. Everyone else just get on with it. Don't pay knackered 48 year olds who are never going to do anything but stay in. It aint rocket science. So why do "they" do it?

:)

[Lima Juliet]

FRI 2?? It is £50k gross but it's only £29500 net (40% income tax and about £500 in NI contributions - that appeared on the following month's statement; sneaky b@stards!).

Still it made sure I had enough money in my account for the crowning turd in the waterpipe that is JPA...:ok:

LJ

[buoy15]

Nose Gunner
True, the knackered 48 year olds, as you put it, are the experienced and probably taught you all you know.
They have to remain there for the distance to get the pension - it's too late for them to aspire as CAS
Please explain your petulance and arrogance - are you destined to be a future CAS or a knackered 48 year old ?
With your attitude, I wouldn't even risk money on you achieving your 48th birthday
Tesco are recruiting people over age 48, paying differential rates, depending on the job, which must be a safer option for you in the longer term:8

[The Gorilla]

Axial Flo

Check your PM's.

TG

[South Bound]

Buoy15

didn't think NG was being either of those things, just articulating the simple financial certainty that FRIs must be focussed on those to whom it will retain, where retention is in the best interests of the Service. I am sure we all think we are worth a nice big handout, but if our individual specializations are not causing problems, why pay us to stay if we are going to anyway?

[NoseGunner]

Buoy

Southbound got my point, a few more chill pills required for you, I think!

Not only knackered 48 year olds but knackered back-seat 48 year olds taught me a fair bit! And of the 2 CAS/old git options I will probably expect to be a knackered 48 year old waiting for my 55 point - and certainly wont expect the treasury to give me a "retention incentive" at that point!

And are you saying that from my last post you think I will die early? Doesnt sound good.:uhoh:

And.......breath out......relax :)

[LFFC]

I will probably expect to be a knackered 48 year old waiting for my 55 point - and certainly wont expect the treasury to give me a "retention incentive" at that point!
NG

We all understand where you're coming from, but I think you missed something. Most 48 year-old, flt lt aircrew already have a massive retention incentive - PAS and the new AFPS05! Together, these give the lucky recipients a pension at age 55 that (in many cases) betters a wg cdr's.

The problem that now faces PMA is to encourage younger career spine personnel to stay. However, because there are strict limits to the number of PAS that can be signed on, we have developed a demographic bulge of aircrew that prevents us from keeping younger guys by offering them PAS.

I'm really not sure how they can get themselves out of this one - other than by reducing PAS pay and redirecting that money to career spine aircrew. :eek:

[NoseGunner]

Yep - we all agree, but we keep saying things like I agree more!

The thread is about FRI, not PAS or retention. Apologies to the OP - it seems to have gone a bit off track. So, does anybody have any info on the plans for FRI?

[ProfessionalStudent]

Apparently, all pilots are going to be paid a King's Ransom annually, just to keep us in the mob...

Or b)...

[South Bound]

There is an interesting argument that goes...

... if it costs £X million to recruit and train a pilot and we are getting Y years service out of them on average before they disappear off to the airlines, and we want some of them to stay on for another Z years, then anything less than X/Y per year is a bargain. Hmmmm, if you believe the blurb that it costs at least £3M per pilot and we get 16 years out of them (which we don't!), then the financial argument says anything up to £187500 PA is a good deal, especially when the crews are already effective, don't need to do 3 years training/holding/growing up...

Not that I think that is a good idea....:ok:

[LFFC]

NG
The thread is about FRI, not PAS or retention.
I'm sorry, but I thought the "R" in FRI stood for Retention! The fact is that they are all very closely related and you can't talk about one thing without mentioning the other.

It hardly makes sense to offer someone an FRI at age 36 then not offer him PAS at age 38/40. But at the same time to have a large, ageing team of PAS who are not being replaced due to their high cost.

[16 blades]

anything up to £187500 PA is a good deal

Gets my vote!

:E

16B

[ethereal entity]

I find myself in a relatively unusual position. I joined to serve my country and will continue to do so as long as I can...I have no desire to leave the service of our country (although I would love to have words with Tony Blair...didn't we used to execute traitors?). I will stay in at my option (if they'll have me) regardless of an FRI or not. However, I know from speaking to virtually everybody I work with that I am in a minority of not much more than one. I May leave (and emigrate) after 5 yrs as PA however (if I get it!), ...just as soon as the pension is sorted, if I see no light at the end of the miserably dark and foreboding tunnel that New Labour are driving this country in to. For the rest of you out there wondering whether to stay or go, what would sway it for you?
We all should understand that a caring environment and an honest Gov't are not realistic, so please be mercenary...how much for how long?

[Prat At The Back]

There is an interesting argument that goes...

... if it costs £X million to recruit and train a pilot and we are getting Y years service out of them on average before they disappear off to the airlines, and we want some of them to stay on for another Z years, then anything less than X/Y per year is a bargain. Hmmmm, if you believe the blurb that it costs at least £3M per pilot and we get 16 years out of them (which we don't!), then the financial argument says anything up to £187500 PA is a good deal, especially when the crews are already effective, don't need to do 3 years training/holding/growing up...

Not that I think that is a good idea....:ok:


From crewroom chit-chat this post is not far from the truth. A six figure sum is being mentioned. Apparantly some big wig to do with the Trg side of aircrew has submitted some fairly bold facts.....

Watch this space.............

[ProfessionalStudent]

I think I might wet myself if they offer me 6 figures to stay in...

[South Bound]

Personally I will hide in a corner and cry like a small girl if they offer certain aircrew that much cash. Not that I can't see the financial argument (perfectly logical really), but I WANT SOME!

Me me me, self self self. Going down to the bottom of my garden to eat worms...

:{

[16 blades]

A six figure sum would have me running straight to PSF (sorry, "HR") screaming "where do I sign?" - and I have given SERIOUS consideration to PVRing recently....go figure, it works.

Of course, If it turns out that the 'careful targetting' means me missing the bracket by a gnat's cock, that will just be another big 'push' factor......so be careful about your 'careful targetting'......

And it would HAVE to be a six figure sum AFTER tax...not the usual con of the Treasury giving with the left and taking with the right.

16B

[South Bound]

Ah yes, but careful targetting could lead to increased departures in other areas leading to more careful targetting until it goes around in a great big circle and all the aircrew get a payrise!

Personally I vote for UAVs....;)

[the heavy heavy]

guys,

6 figure sums! good luck to you.

If it's true i'll be choking on my first class curry's for the next 20 years! (my new imporoved retirement date:mad: ) Seem to remember the same figures/logic being talked about in the mid 90's when i was digging my escape tunnel out of QRA. Didn't quite happen :{

fingers crossed. :ok:

[BootFlap]

I have a cunning plan! They could tell us we are getting a new FRI, paid through JPA, send us all out to Iran for the next installation of Blair vs The Rest, see how many of us come back and then cancel it as we will have lost that many aircraft we have no need to retain aircrew! Obviously all written with tongue firmly in cheek........................... although?

[LFFC]

I wouldn't get too excited guys. Although the current figures allegedly show us to be quite badly short of pilots, when the required number is revised downwards in the next set of figures released (FY06) we'll probably magically be about in balance. I expect the same thing will happen next year too until we've reached that new, downsized, RAF in a couple of years time.

It's only then that the real problem will start - when they can't stop the outflow but want to maintain a constant number of pilots. But of course - by then it will be far too late to do anything about it! It probably is already actually!:sad:

[Jambo Jet]

LFFC is right. There is nothing to get excited about. I dont reckon Innsworth are too fussed right now.

I have an offer of PA and when I rang up and asked the DO if I could extend it, he was not too keen at first but eventually gave me an extra 3 months to decide, and he was not that bothered really. If they were really that concerned would they not be chatting to the guys nearing their IRD desperate to find out what they intend to do ? Or outlining options available to those who decide to stay in as an incentive.

With all the upheaval right now my head says "leave", my heart "stay" and the wife is just pissed off that I cannot make a decision.

6 figure sums would be nice but can anyone really see it happen? No chance.

[LFFC]

If they were really that concerned would they not be chatting to the guys nearing their IRD desperate to find out what they intend to do ? That's the real problem. They have to let young people leave because that's the cost-effective way of doing things. Rather that than make us PAS aircrew redundant! Just think how much that would cost!

[Prat At The Back]

No further rumours of a 6 figure sum, the talk now is of a salary package in line with military doctors. circa £90k.

Anyone?:confused:

[Elmlea]

I'll happilt wait with bated breath for anything like that; although I would assume that any massive salary packages are best reserved for those around or beyond their IPP, rather than those of us with a handful of tours until then!

Edit; where's this "talk" coming from? There's more talk of ATPLs than retention round my way!

Not that I can't see the financial argument (perfectly logical really), but I WANT SOME!

I can't see the financial argument at all. Everyone quotes these mythical "it costs £4M to train a fast jet pilot" lines, but where does that figure come from? I'd bet it's more a case of the training system costing IPSx£4M per year to run, rather than there actually being a cost of £4M for everyone we shove into IOT. So if you need an extra couple of pilots, you don't actually have to pay an extra £8M; you just make a couple of training courses 12 people instead of 10. The only extra it's costing you is the pay and benefits for your extra officers.

[ethereal entity]

There is a new FRI on the way, according to a very good mate at PMA who is involved in the process. No detail on how much or who it will be targetted at, but he says it is definately coming - probably to be announced in the near future, as people are now making their go/no-go decision based on the fact that they will not be getting an FRI post Mar 07.
If they wish to retain people who are coming up to option decisions now (1 year left until IPP), then they need to let people know if there will be an FRI for them, or accept that they will lose them. I know lots of blokes who will miss the current FRI (some by weeks), who are going to leave - a few won't stay for all the money in the world, but I know at least 3 (very experienced front-line QHI's), who have said that circa 100k would keep them in, but less probably wouldn't - this is not a demand, as they are all prepared to leave, but the RAF must accept that if it wants to keep people such as this, it may have to stump up some cash.

[Biggus]

This is a very thorny subject, and without defending them, PMA will never be able to please everyone. On the subject of FRIs, the amount offered will never be quite enough for some people, it won't be across the board, and inevitably somebody will miss the qualifing date by a few days and be pissed off. If 33+ yr olds are targetted then, for example, there will be 29 yr old ME captains/co-pilots who are attractive enough when the airlines are recruiting heavily and might well leave on the basis there may not be a glut of jobs when they get to their 16/38 (or 18/40) point. Airline recruiting has been cyclical in the past - whether that will remain the case, who knows?

Increasing pay (flying pay) will reach everyone, across all ages, but is it too expensive? Consider this, if pay goes up by £10,000 a year (over current levels) at say 38, then somebody staying in to 55 will get an extra £170,000 compared to today - look at it as a £170,000 FRI (£100,000+ after tax) but spread over 17 years. The above example was post 38, but flying pay could be increased as far back down the age bracket as the RAF wants to retain.

Unfortunately, increasing pay as per the example above means that when the RAF does not have retention as a priority then it is still paying out the money - but then that is where the retention at 38 (40) quota should manage your manning levels!

Of course increasing flying pay will further increase aircrew/non-aircrew friction, "you should have worked harder at school2 jokes, etc........

[BEagle]

Well, it seems that the chickens are coming home to roost just as I warned...

Contractorisation only works in the short term, it is unsustainable unless the contractor has a guaranteed supply of staff. Which they haven't - they rely on a few people staying with them, but seem blisfully unaware that there is no-one there to replace them when they ultimately retire.

So - the prick who dreamed up the idea doubtless got his promotion and probably his 'K' some years later, but everyone else has to pick up the pieces.

Take the UAS world, for example. In the big picture, it costs cock all. It was an ideal way for new QFIs to learn their craft and gave them a bit of a break from the front line. Their enthusiasm attracted many undergraduates into the RAF who would otherwise never have considered it. But no, some Air Marshal who knows the cost of everything and the value of nothing has to decide that He Knows Better. Now there are fewer QFI opportunities, fewer 'rest tours' from Bliar's wars - so more pilots decide FIIQ, pull the B&Y and off to the airlines they go.

Then someone realises that Houston - we have a problem. Sorry, too late. Even squillions of short term cash won't overturn the descent of a once proud RAF into its own high speed spiral dive of destruction, the warning signs of which were there for all to see some 4 or 5 years ago. But the self-perpetuating pillockry were more interested in their next promotions and turned a blind eye - and now it's time to recover. Hauling back on the control column by offering huge bribes won't work - the spiral will just tighten further.

The solution - take a long hard look at the way things were 10-15 years ago, clear out the bull****, tedium and general crap which has crept in ever since, abandon the creeping cancer of contractorisation such as MFTS and FSTA, for example, and get back to an RAF with the high standards of the past.

But I fear it'll all be too late.

Look at the nonsense of JPA and all that goes with it. The last straw for many, I'll bet.

[Mmmmnice]

NoseGunner - as a 48+ (but not knackered) I do not see much point in firing more money at me, but........I can leave at 6 months, or less, notice and then there would be a bit of a short-term scrabble around to find out who is going to keep the younger monkeys on the straight and narrow!
But please feel free to confuse me by firing more moolah my way!!

Beags - you missed LEAN and all that jazz - I don't feel I'm quite in a 'spiral to destruction' but the old sense of humour is tested daily to its limits

[Pristina]

Will you need the money when wearing the army air corps green?:oh:

[Al Fresco]

In short, in the last year or so I haven't spoken to one person who intends to stay past their pension point, and quite a few are seriously considering their option.

I think this is largely due to a quality of life issue - something the Gov't seems to think Forces personnel are immune to. In the longer term more thought needs to be given to improving this issue. A handful of people will stay in 'come what may' because they are exceptionally loyal (or can't be arsed to leave!) but most will only take so much being messed around before they leave. The Forces have to move with the times; fewer people stay in one job all their lives, and if people want to change careers they switch on the internet and all the opportunities in the world open up. If the RAF wants to keep its people it needs to make itself an attractive employer - simple fact.

I think an FRI would work in the short term, as it did a few years ago. No doubt the real size of the problem is being masked by a shrinking Air Force that doesn't need to make redundancies across the board because people are leaving anyway! When the RAF tgt size is hit in a couple of years and the PVRs and Options are still rolling in then it may well be too late to do anything about it.

I heard third hand info the other day that in the Danish Air Force a massively unpopular move from Aalborg to Skydstrup (sp?) caused half the sqn Engineers to leave, and now the F-16 force is barely operational because the jets are unserviceable and the pilots are getting about enough hours a month to stay current. There's a lesson in there if the RAF looks hard enough.....if people aren't happy in their job they will leave it!

[Kim Il Jong]

I've heard that the retention of pilots per-se is not the most pressing issue, the issue is that the overwhelming majority of sub-38 yr old Sqn Ldrs are taking their 38 option. (understandably) It's the Flt Cdr/HQ jobs that are suffering more than the pilots-in-cockpits situation. Apparently.

[FFP]

I think times have changed to the extent that you can't rely on showing Top Gun on ITV and getting a flood of fodder thro OASC. Those considering a career in aviation are more savvy these days and whilst there will always be a cohort of youngsters intent on flying the latest whizz jet, others are realising that Mil life brings with it more time away, fighting someone else's war for less money than their counterparts.

The MOD needs to become an attractive employer. And it's not at the moment.

Are we likely to see a flood of F/L promoted before their time to fill a gap ?

[StopStart]

Or there's crazy fools like me that accept PA :bored: I just like going on det :\

Fairly confident though that if there is a new FRI i will, for some reason, miss out. Probably by one day knowing my luck

:{

[Biggus]

Reference sub 38 yr old Sqn Ldrs leaving at their option point, rather than try to maintain a failing system, I can offer the following solutions to this problem:

a) Promote less Sqn Ldrs to Wg Cdrs, so the Sqn Ldrs who stay in at 38 do more time in Sqn Ldr posts. We already have far more Wg Cdrs than we need (about 1,200 I think?)

b) Look at all the jobs done by Sqn Ldrs and work out how many could be done by competent Flt Lts (probably about 80%+). Rank creep has been getting into the system for years!

c) Promote Flt Lt aircrew (all officers) to Sqn Ldr on the basis of time. The engineers virtually do this already - or they used to. About 90% of engineers used to make Sqn Ldr, all you had to do was look in the RAF list and find there were more Sqn Ldr engineers than Flt Lts, an inverted pyramid - I think it was a way of making up for their lack of flying pay, a retention/recruitment method?

It only took me a couple of minutes to come up with those solutions - who knows what I could achieve if I were a senior officer and given more time to think about it .........

In case you hadn't noticed some of the above was tongue in cheek - but not all of it.........

[navibrator]

On a general FRI point, I've never believed in paying everyone the same whether front seat/back seat/FJ/rotary/multi. Its expensive madness. If you're short of rotary mates for the next few years then rotary mates get the bonus, if you're short of navs(:eek: ) then they get the bonus. Everyone else just get on with it. Don't pay knackered 48 year olds who are never going to do anything but stay in. It aint rocket science. So why do "they" do it?
:)

As one of the 48 yr old knackers, I would fly tomorrow. I maintain my A1G1Z1 and could compete with the rest. Any change - goodbye airforce!

[bayete]

PMA can't be that short of experienced pilots.
I have been a volunteer for a change of commission to a PC for 3 years. When they finally offered the PC it was on 18/40 terms while I would remain on Pension 75 (16/38). Didn't make sense to me so turned it down but wrote a letter to PMA explaining that I would have accepted a 16/38 PC giving the RAF another 6 years of sevice for no more cost than anyone else on a PC, no FRI etc.
That was 3 mths ago and I have not heard back.

[bayete]

Just This Once-
Probably lost amongst all the please fill in this survey to let us know how we are doing A3 envelopes that I have in my mail slot.:ugh: :yuk:

[Mr Teatime]

Accepted PA staying in. Hate the niff naff but love the fg. If they want to pay me more great, it will help pay the mortgage. Aiming for 48 and not too knackered. Agree with the Sqn Ldr problem. All the Flt Cdrs I know are planning to leave at 38.

[StopStart]

Sweet - thought I was the only one ;)

[Hueymeister]

Rumour has it we are light of about 200+ career spine Sqn Ldrs, and the remaining ones will be the targetted beneficiaries of the said FRI. Anyone confirm/deny it?

[Mr Teatime]

If Sqn Ldr retention is the problem not too sure that extra money is the real solution. Make the job more interesting and give back some job satisfaction and quality of life and people will want to stay. Giving money makes it a push factor later when you take it away.

[Confucius]

Rumour has it we are light of about 200+ career spine Sqn Ldrs, and the remaining ones will be the targetted beneficiaries of the said FRI. Anyone confirm/deny it?

I'd say the raf were about 200 heavy on brown-nose bleedin' squabblers in the blunty branches.

Can't see that flying sqns need 'em anyway. All the sqns I've been on have run just as, if not more, smoothly without them hanging around making 'important' decisions.

What we do appear to be short of is experienced guys in their 40s, you know, the ones who wouuld've been around had they not taken the redundancy packages a few years back (and who can blame them). There's gonna be a big 'hole' when the current batch of 50-somethings put their feet up at home not work.

[Compressorstall]

Perhaps we have made it too competitive getting to Sqn Ldr. Having worked with the Army, they aren't all organising charity blindfolded canoe expeds whilst also being Mess Sec in the hope of making themselves stand out. Spending all that time doing secondary duties means that some of my colleagues are blind to what the rest of the RAF does, but they can write a cracking set of minutes...

[Hueymeister]

Competetive..I should Coco...1600 GD Flt Lts and 80 get picked up...not at all like the 'Majority' in the Army....

[Compressorstall]

It's not at all like the Army, but are we breeding generations who are afraid to stick their necks out? I derived great satisfaction from leading a flight on ops and I used to have a Boss who always told me that being in charge was 'not a popularity contest', but he used to mean popularity with those above since he adored being in charge and he would go out of his way to get the best for his blokes - that seems much rarer now, or perhaps I am too bogged down with my secondary duties to notice...

[Prat At The Back]

I heard that the chap who recently stepped down from posting Jnr ME pilots is honchoing a plan to introduce a focussed FRI and it has been approved at top level :D

[ethereal entity]

PATB

Do tell old chap...sounds like good gen - I have heard in deepest here that the FRI IS coming, and will be 'surgically' aimed, but have heard nothing more other than speculation as to the targets (seems to be CS Sqn Ldr's/RW/the odd fast jet mate depending on type) - any info may help inform my imminent decision!

[Axial Flo]

It would be a grave mistake not to target the PAS guys in their early/mid forties as well. They are just as likely to PVR as the CS Sqn Ldrs, taking their professional aviator experience with them.
If they (the PAS) go, we lose a large chunk of the deputy Flt Cdrs, FI's, QFI's, QWI's etc - in other words many of the people on the Sqns that enable the task to get done because their time is not devoted to being promoted.

[LFFC]

It would be a grave mistake not to target the PAS guys in their early/mid forties as well. They are just as likely to PVR as the CS Sqn Ldrs, taking their professional aviator experience with them.
If they (the PAS) go, we lose a large chunk of the deputy Flt Cdrs, FI's, QFI's, QWI's etc - in other words many of the people on the Sqns that enable the task to get done because their time is not devoted to being promoted.

Sadly, I think you'll find that PMA wouldn't be too worried about loosing a few PAS aircrew. The assumption seems to be that, if you're already PAS, you're bound to have swapped to the new AFPS05 and therefore have already got the biggest retention incentive available - flying, more pay, and a whopping big pension when you finally retire! Loosing a few of the current crop of PAS would reduce the huge pension burden and free up a few PAS slots for younger aircrew approaching their IRD.

I suspect that the people they are planning to target with a new FRI are those that have stayed on the old pension scheme (and are perhaps therefore planning to leave before age 55) and who possess the skills they need to keep.

What are the skills they need? My guess is mainly, but not exclusively, pilots and those with strong leadership and management ability (mainly sqn ldrs and those with potential for even higher rank).


One thing's for sure though - with all the stealth cuts (JPA) and budget squeezes that I see and hear about, they must be pretty desperate if they really are considering throwing money at the problem!

[goatmanni]

[quote=LFFC]The assumption seems to be that, if you're already PAS, you're bound to have swapped to the new AFPS05 and therefore have already got the biggest retention incentive available - flying, more pay, and a whopping big pension when you finally retire! Loosing a few of the current crop of PAS would reduce the huge pension burden and free up a few PAS slots for younger aircrew approaching their IRD.quote]

Don't assume old chap that all PAS mates have jumped to AFPS05. I for one wouldn't touch it - that decision is not solely based on the fact that I may leave before 55, but there are a number of clauses that make it unattractive.

[L J R]

There are quite a few PAS who DIDNT take AFP 05. I re-iterate goat's sentiments above.

[The Gorilla]

Has any body on pre Oct 89 TOS (Reserved rights) been offered PAS?
Have they accepted?

The benefits I receive monthly as a result of pre Oct 89 TOS and AFPS 75 make me VERY happy indeed!
:}

[Four Types]

It is the knackered 40+ types with no axe to grind, no career to push and no nose to brown that will grasp the nettle and inform, off line of course, the seniors that they may wish to reconsider some of there more irrational decisions. I never wanted to be 'Deputy OIC the Woodwork Club' so why should I do it just to get promoted. I would like to recount a scene from a fast jet crewroom some years ago:

Sqn Ldr Flt Cdr "I think we should be doing more lights-out night intercepts'

Knackered 40+ Spec Aircrew type "Why don't we see if we can get it right with the lights 'on' first?"

That, to me, sums up the requirement for PAS/Spec Aircrew/Wisdom of age knackered 40+ types

Four Types

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

Gorrilla,

Not wishing to gloat but I, like a few others, was on reserved rights, got offered PAS transferred to the new pension scheme and am now laughing all the way to the bank. Now looking forward to retirng at 55, travelling the world and living in the sun, some days I love my job:ok:

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[The Gorilla]

Always
That's excellent news matey! I was begining to think from some of the things I had heard on here that all pre Oct 89 TOS guys had been snubbed. Glad to see that isn't so in the loadie world!
TG

[Razordome]

Ah yes, but careful targetting could lead to increased departures in other areas leading to more careful targetting until it goes around in a great big circle and all the aircrew get a payrise!

Personally I vote for UAVs....;)

"Personally I vote for UAVs"

PLEASE REFRAIN FROM USING BAD LANGUAGE IN THIS FORUM. YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED.

[Razordome]

I have a cunning plan! They could tell us we are getting a new FRI, paid through JPA, send us all out to Iran for the next installation of Blair vs The Rest, see how many of us come back and then cancel it as we will have lost that many aircraft we have no need to retain aircrew! Obviously all written with tongue firmly in cheek........................... although?

So thats why we do not get DAS kits !!! It all makes sense now!:D

[ethereal entity]

My decision ( 1 year to go) really is imminent - I have recently got the PAS Offer that I wanted, but Mates on the outside can virtually guarantee an Airline job if I leave, and Mrs Entity is leaning that way. My decision must be made by Mid-Jul. Has anybody got any solid gossip? My Desk O is a nice chap and says that an announcement is 'pending' - whatever that means - any advice re: an FRI would be welcome. At the end of the day, it might be a bit mercenary, but a lump of cash would retain me (I might stay anyway - can't decide!).:confused:

[L J R]

As a fence sitter in Oz in a similar situation, I waited over a year for a 'review' into Aircrew retention (possible contracts, Spec aircrew, retention benefit, pensions etc etc et al.....). Only to be told that the Minister for Defence will set up a review committee that would embrace a larger issue (retention in all ranks & services). Needless to say the Aircrew review lost the plot..... and I finally left!.


Jump ship. The grass IS greener!

[flipster]

Don't believe a single word that PMA and DOs/posters tell or promise you about FRI, postings or PAS......................................................... ...............................................NOT A SINGLE FECKING WORD!!!

Trust me

[Prat At The Back]

OK Purely Hearsay,

The DO was in town today and the word on the street was that FRI is going to be very much aimed at SO2 pilots/qfis/qwis on the career stream and also but to a much lesser extent at pas pilots/qfis/qwis.

Now the figures mentioned, purely rumour, no guarantees (where have we heard that) were in excess of 100,000 after tax for CS Sqn Ldrs. And more like the 18K bonuses for those on PA terms.

I didn't speak to DO but thats what was talk of the crew room.

"Boss, any chance of a good write up this year please"

We need the information from PMA, like yesterday.

[Set Power]

Well it is a rumour network after all.....

Given the workload / frustration of Everyday life, an offer like this could still not keep me in...

Quality of life and personal beliefs are far too important when compared to working for these toothless poodles and incompetant 'gung ho' leaders. Too many corners have been cut recently and I for one believe it's spiralling out of control.

Time to go and start enjoying life, instead of dreading that next phone call...

Ta ra

[ethereal entity]

If this rumour is to be believed, then I am sure it will retain one or two Sqn Ldr's, depending on the term they are required to serve without having to repay it (more than 5 years - no chance). However, we all know that any 'targetted' bonus will be devisive, but how about such a sum to this particularly disillusioned bunch?

Or how about my mate Bloggs?

'Sorry Bloggs, but you just missed the promotion that you've been hoping for - but you might get PAS if you're lucky - don't worry old bean, you're a good chap and you nearly got picked up - it'll only cost you 100 Grand'.

Redress the promotion board anyone? How about a redress of the Stn Cdr because he gave the Mess Sec job to somebody else and you need it for promotion and the 100K bonus that will make your life a lot better. Do the secondary 'promotion' duties now go to Stn Cdr's favourites, or do the Promotion Board get to have a say, recommending those who 'nearly' made it last year?

By the way, lots of mates have left for the airlines recently, they all got jobs immediately (it is easy out there - and I'm talking fast jet and rotary mates - not multi boys with 1000's of hrs in a Tristar), and are all earning (with route/sector pay etc) at least as much as they were in the RAF. Add in the gratuity(especially if max commutation is realised, then divide by 5) and the pension over 5 years, and a 100K bonus for a 5 year bond is is about what you would get if you left and took the money that you had coming - and you'd be on a MUCH bigger salary ladder and in control of your life.

Hang on a minute...why am I struggling with this decision?

It's nice to know that the issue is (hopefully) being addressed, but the figures don't add up - these numbers (if true) are poorly thought out and far too small to retain intelligent people who want to leave . - Hello CAS!! You are giving us the money that you would have to give us anyway if we left. Just because we're not Air Officer's, doesn't mean we're stupid. Oh, and the PA Spine might be good, but it ain't that good.

The water's are clearing and the answer is appearing. Decision becoming easier with this rumour (if it's true)

[LFFC]

It's nice to know that the issue is (hopefully) being addressed, but...

No, a new FRI won't address the issue - it would just be a holding measure until (they hope) things improve. The last real attempt to fix things was a few years ago when people looked hard at the "push and pull" factors. They even tinkered with a few allowances etc to make things more attractive - but the stealth cuts disguised by the introduction of JPA seems to have blown all that work out of the water!

[Glass Half Empty]

By the way, lots of mates have left for the airlines recently, they all got jobs immediately (it is easy out there - and I'm talking fast jet and rotary mates - not multi boys with 1000's of hrs in a Tristar), and are all earning (with route/sector pay etc) at least as much as they were in the RAF. Add in the gratuity(especially if max commutation is realised, then divide by 5) and the pension over 5 years, and a 100K bonus for a 5 year bond is is about what you would get if you left and took the money that you had coming - and you'd be on a MUCH bigger salary ladder and in control of your life.

Don't ever believe that working for an airline gives you control over your life. The only control is to have your own business and even then you will work all hours but at least for no other b*ggers benefit!!

[ethereal entity]

Well, the time has come and gone, and the decision has been made. After 15 yrs of flying for HM Forces (and loved (almost) every minute of it )- I left the decision on whether to stay until the last minute. Spoke to my DO and a few colleagues in 'high places' this week, about the future, career progression (simply more time away, according to DO), and the FRI (A good one would have worked for another 5 yrs or so). All I got told was that the FRI situation would be 'clarified' in the very near future. Too late for me, I'm afraid - I told PMA that I would consider staying but wanted to know the deal - they are obviously not short of pilots or instructors - if you think they are , then perhaps you are mistaken. I will not accept my offer of PAS, and am taking my 4000+hrs and 600+ operational sorties and leaving - I sent the paperwork this morning, and arranged an interview with ThompsonFly this afternoon. It was easy, and am seeing Ryanair and Easy next month.

Maybe it's just me, but I genuinly think that the RAF wants to actively get rid of experienced pilots so it can pay less money to inexperienced guys who are much lower down the payscales, and damn the consequences.

Enjoy PMA - you reap what you sow

[itsonlyme]

Just a quick thought, will a new FRI actually keep pilots in the RAF? The reason I ask is that I have pvr'ed and will have to return £30,000 that I was given a few years ago as a retention bonus. Due to quality of life issues it's a small price to pay.
Quality of life will at some stage take precidence over a short term bonus. The civil aviation market is so strong at the moment that high caliber pilots are in demand and quality jobs with quality companies are obtained with just a little work and prep.
This isn't a moan or a gripe, I've been in the RAF for a long time and enjoyed most of it. However, at some stage the constant fighting against petty paperwork, rules and regs that are unflexible and overwhelming has to take it's tole. Careers outside don't have JPA or Ord Off or CSS or Sec duties or constant niff naff and trivia or fitness tests or tents in the sand or constant deployments or soaring divorce rates or ... oh well, you get the idea!
I'm sure that life outside isn't lush lush green grass but at least it's green and not brown.

[500days2do]

Why spend so much money on wargaming experts...???

5d2d

[Prat At The Back]

Its all so very quiet on the topic of FRI.

Anyone got any rumours? News? Etc

[serf]

Apache pilots to get £100000

[Hydraulic Palm Tree]

Sod it - I'm off, can't be @rsed even if it was £100K.

HPT

[Hueymeister]

Seriously, HPT, are you going? We both know a nice man in the UAE who'd snap you up with your background/experience. It's tempting me to go too. PA is a nice offer, but I'm just not sure it's what I want to do for the next 20 yrs.

[Hydraulic Palm Tree]

Yep, I'm off. UAE sounds great:}

[Hueymeister]

Latest (rumour) from a secret SH base near Basingstoke is that a number of guys have either PVR'd or exercised their 38 option recently. When will the announcement for the new FRI be made? (Not that it will benefit me, if the (rumours) as to its target audience are true:(

[brit bus driver]

And that target audience would be...:ugh:

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

We are about to lose a whole swathe of Flt Cdr's who have stated that 100 grand is not even close to being enough to keep them in, in fact 250 grand would not swing it for at least one of them.

I can't understand how there are not more pilots out there voting with their feet under the current "stretched but not over stretched" regime we live in:rolleyes:

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[Hueymeister]

Career Spine Sqn Ldrs I believe.

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

Not too sure which spine they come into but on the whole they are good guys we can ill afford to lose, and quite what the vacuam they leave behind will be filled with we shall have to wait with baited breath and fingers crossed to see.

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[rudekid]

ABIW

It will be interesting to see who will put their money where their mouth is, should a FRI come to fruition in the next twelve months. Both ways!

I hope it works, because we need to keep some good guys in!

RK

Stretched, but still wrinkled!;)