Working in India [Archive]

scameron77

6th Apr 2006, 21:54

Kingfisher: Co-Pilots / Trainee Co-Pilots:

ATR 42/72

Current Medical CPL, FRTO, COP/RTR and IR with multi engine and minimum of 25 hrs on multi-engine aircraft. (10 hrs could be completed on an approved multi – engine simulator). Pilots with prior flying experience on multi engine aircraft preferred.

From their website, at last, breath of fresh air, not outrageous demands for that first jet job. Has anyone looked into it? I'm guessing the low hours totals are maybe to get Indian nationals into the aircraft opposed to foreigners?

The COP/RTR are Certificate of Proficiency/Radio Telephony something (having 14 JAA ATPL's done may supersede this requirement, anyone with any experience?)

Worth a debate anyway

zooloflyer

6th Apr 2006, 22:09

You checked out the news section?? The boss in white with all those Indian beauties surrounding him...looks very interesting!!

http://www.businesswireindia.com/attachments/Dr_Vijay_Mallya_and_Ministers.JPG

Phileas Fogg

6th Apr 2006, 23:32

And if you are not Indian then how do you intend to get a work permit ahead of all the Indian wannabees?

scameron77

7th Apr 2006, 03:43

That is something I haven't looked into, is there a surplus of qualified pilots in Inidia like in the US and UK? Maybe that may influence their recruitment plus also the low hours requirement.

Do you have any experience of the Indian air industry or visa situation? Talk about shooting the messenger.

divinesoul

7th Apr 2006, 06:29

hello all

As per Indian law no foreign f/os are allowed in India.the shortage is only for capt and TRE and TRI.The requirement u see on the ad is only for Indian nationals not for low hour foreigners.Oh by the way its raining new carriers in India god only knows when the bubble is going to burst.Similar thing happened in 93 and only 2 airlines survived(Jet airways and Sahara) rest all folded up very quickly.

RoyHudd

7th Apr 2006, 07:59

A nice piece of democratic legislation there.

This means effectively single-pilot ops for many A320 flights, with the local Captains being new to the A320 in many instances. Crikey!
Indian airspace is chaotic (antiquated HF comms, overcrowded VHF, ill-equipped ATC) and weather conditions can be very tricky. To say nothing about the state of the airports themselves.

Think I'll take the railway, myself.

(Not a pop at the Indian people, by the way. Absolutely charming folk...but their aviation world is seriously flawed and needs overhauling quickly and thoroughly, before too many "events" occur)

scroggs

7th Apr 2006, 09:44

This isn't really the place to debate the democratic bona fides of the Indian government. For good or bad, their rules are currently that only a few aviation jobs are open to (experienced) foreigners. Funnily enough, the EU and the US, with vastly larger aviation industries, also make it difficult (though not totally impossible) for non-nationals to enter the jobs market. India is entitled to set whatever restrictions she wishes. Live with it.

Scroggs

Phileas Fogg

7th Apr 2006, 16:56

The Indian government are as they are because that is how the British taught them to be 50-60 years ago, OK they're still living by a text book that may be 50-60 years out of date but stiff upper lip and all that.

A Captain requires 100 sectors of line training in India thus any need for F/O's is put on the back burners, for several months both seats will be occupied by Captains!

jamesiek

8th Apr 2006, 18:06

Scroggs,

Are you basing that on written terms and conditions or are you just guessing, in a sort of retaliation at the way they treat us. Surely some written contractual evidence should be used when making such a bold claim???

scroggs

8th Apr 2006, 18:54

What are you talking about? EU residence and employment legislation is not in some contract, it is law. All countries apply some restrictions to who can and cannot live and work in their territories. Some places are more welcoming than others if they need skilled foreign labour (the Middle East, Africa, some parts of Asia), but the more developed an economy is, the less they need people from outside their country taking their jobs.

Scroggs

Phileas Fogg

9th Apr 2006, 00:05

Every country has it rights to who it may offer foreign work permits to and who it may not.

There is enough of a problem with Indian call centres taking over what were previously UK/EU jobs of people answering telephones, you guys would shout from the rooftops if the Indians came to take over the pilot jobs also.

So what right do UK/EU pilots have to go and take the jobs of young Indian wannabee pilots? None whatsoever!

LeNautilus

9th Apr 2006, 02:19

dekka007

9th Apr 2006, 03:24

Does the Indian National rule apply to the SFO positions with higher requirements or only the FO. Cannot believe there are that many nationals sitting around with the SFO requirements under their belts? or perhaps there is.

Left Wing

9th Apr 2006, 03:41

Hello!
I've read in the last Orient Aviation Mag that according to Indian laws, it is compelled to have at least one Indian flight crew in the cockpit.
I understand: either Indian F/O and foreign Capt or foreign F/O and Indian Capt. This is different from no foreign F/O allowed.
Do you know which version is true?

No Foreign FOs...at all.
One pilot must be Indian; could be Capt or TRI / TRE. for eg if TRI is foreign then the Capt must be Indian and vise versa

Only type rated with 500hrs as PIC & TRI; TRE can get jobs in India.

Indian govt keeps the right to place its own citizens as FO before it allows intl' FOs to take local jobs.
Kingfisher is trying to change ths law..it will never happen.

If an Indian applied to LH he would not get a job, same goes for the local German kid who applies to Jet airways/ Kingfisher etc ect

guimaraes

10th Apr 2006, 10:11

Ok,but I read on some website that India will need about 5000 pilots until 2009. and their flight schools have capacity of producing only about 100 new pilots a year.

scroggs

10th Apr 2006, 11:48

Then there's a great opportunity for the flying training industry in India!

India operates one of the world's largest air forces, which retires several hundred highly-qualified pilots every year. They are quite likely to form the vast bulk of India's new commercial pilots, and the nascent flying training industry will provide most of the rest. A few experienced TRI/TREs from outside the country will pass on their expertise to the new generation of Indian trainers and, in a relatively short time, India is likely to be self-sufficient in commercial pilots again.

Despite some of the preconceptions at work here, India has quite a well-developed and sophisticated economy which is able to respond to industrial developments quite rapidly - including those in aviation. The commercial aviation sector in India is tiny compared to the size of the country, and its likely expansion rate will probably be more or less within the capacity of the associated (and proportionately expanding) training infrastructure. Where there are imbalances, India will (as have many other countries) import the highest-qualified, most experienced help it can get. These highly-experienced individuals will add value by training many Indian nationals to enter or progress within the industry. There is little point in India taking on foreign junior FOs who do little more than occupy a seat that could be taken by an Indian, and effectively remove money from their economy.

Don't get distracted by the huge poverty that is the traditional view of India; that certainly exists, but there is a vast, modern economy developing within the country that neither needs nor wants help from other nations.

Scroggs

scroggs

10th Apr 2006, 13:05

Oh dear. :hmm:

You haven't checked your facts at all, have you? :rolleyes:

Scroggs

Jagbag

10th Apr 2006, 13:50

Scroggs has summed it up pretty well !

The indian aviation industry still needs some channelising and systematic planning. The DGCA FID are trying their best to provide it.

Also there have been a few major incidents involving expat captains which has caused a lot of embarrassment to the companies which hired them and in one case a company has been sold.

60 to 70% of Kingfisher is ex Air Force all doing well with little or no problems. One of the main reasons Indian F/Os are taken is they are much cheaper than expats. Also an Indian F/O is more used to the Indian environment which will take some getting used to for an expat.

For the foreseeable future I doubt if any policy change will happen.

bafanguy

10th Apr 2006, 16:45

Is one to take from all this that India has an ample and adequate supply of FOs to meet the needs of the growing airline industry there and the only need is for experienced captains ?

I can see why the country wants their own citizens to gain experience as quickly as possible and fill the captain spots. But with the airline industry being an economic entity, allowing airplanes to go unflown for lack of pilots would compel companies to take expat FOs if that's what it took to make the system work.

Just curious...

scroggs

10th Apr 2006, 17:01

Look, there just isn't going to be a market for expat FOs in India! There is in China, the Middle East, and a few other places, but most countries want to be able to provide for their own needs and will work very hard to do so - it's not easy to tell your countrymen that some of their highest-paying jobs are going to foreigners who otherwise have no right of residence or employment!

Scroggs

bafanguy

10th Apr 2006, 17:52

- it's not easy to tell your countrymen that some of their highest-paying jobs are going to foreigners who otherwise have no right of residence or employment!
Scroggs

The same can be said in every country on the planet....yet....

scroggs

10th Apr 2006, 18:21

And your point is what exactly? The USA and the EU are two of the most protected industrial economies in the world. We apply stringent restrictions on who can work and live in our countries. Other countries are entitled to do the same. Fortunately many don't, or those British, European and American pilots that work in many, many countries around the world would all have to go home.

Scroggs

no sponsor

10th Apr 2006, 18:26

Scoggs has it spot on. There is a growing middle class in India, and within the next 5-10 years, it is going to feed strong growth in Indian aviation. The vast middle classes are highly educated and will work for fraction of the cost of a similarly educated individual in the developed western world. However, costs are rising and salaries increasing. My company gives salary increases to our Indian employees at not less than 20% per year. This is unsustainable.

If the bubble does burst, I think you'll find more Indian pilots moving to the traditional stamping grounds of expat pilots in the Middle East and Asia-Pacific. Inevitably, some will come to Europe too. Even if the bubble doesn't burst, young f/o' will quickly work out there's better money to be made at SIA & EK. All in all, things should get even tougher for wannabes...:sad:

bafanguy

10th Apr 2006, 18:58

And your point is what exactly?
Scroggs

...yet countries continue to do what they have to do to keep the airplanes moving inspite of how hard it is to give away good jobs to "outsiders"; that all.

If India doesn't have to hire expat FOs, so be it. I would guess that expats have been considered a necessary evil in the eyes of locals as long as countries have been doing things which required people their own country couldn't produce fast enough.

If India can get by entirely own their own people, more power to them. But, ultimately I'd place my bets on the motivation of the Almighty Dollar having the final word. When/if India ( or any other country ) couldn't get the job done with local talent, I rather doubt hurt feelings would count for much.

Not picking a fight...just thinking out loud. Just an interesting subject...

scroggs

10th Apr 2006, 20:04

The aviation industry in India is tiny. I mean by that that, compared to the population, it is almost non-existent. There are probably more airliners in Luxembourg than there are in India! The infrastructure just isn't there to support that rapid an expansion that they'll run out of people. With a population four times that of the USA, believe me they have plenty of people! Only a very few need to be qualified to fly aeroplanes, and it looks likely that they can generate the majority of those themselves - and they can send potential pilots to schools in other countries, who will be only too willing to provide the training India requires.

I don't think there will ever be a large market for expat pilots in India.

Scroggs

Phileas Fogg

10th Apr 2006, 22:31

I think the point that Scroggs, and indeed I, has tried to make is that unless one is an Indian national one hasn't got a cat in hell's chance of getting a RHS job in India.

Perhaps Scroggs may back me up on this but if the subject matter is to turn to an Indian flight safety issue then perhaps it belongs in a different forum to this one.

There is a distinct smell of sour grapes in the air!

bafanguy

10th Apr 2006, 23:41

There is a distinct smell of sour grapes in the air!

...not in the least...

Left Wing

11th Apr 2006, 02:26

RHS will forever remain closed to expats=sour grapes or Indian pickles.

There are close to 500 Indian kids right now in USA & Aus comepleting their CPLs, both the countires have relaxed the visa rules looking at the huge potencial for local FTOs.

Scroggs, you seem to have put a lot of research into this; you have more info on hand than most CEOs running the airlines in India...

Phileas Fogg, agree Flt safety will an issue as low time FO and low time Capts will be flying in some kick azz Indian monsoon in the next few mths, most new airlines this will be real test of their safety detps.

bafanguy, watch this space ..how fast India becomes a full local crew...you will be shocked...:ok:

Jagbag

11th Apr 2006, 10:54

There are rules preventing less than 500 hours total on type experience in the cockpit.

New abinitio F/Os have to go thru approx 50 sectors LOFT before release.

Some on this thread think they "invented the wheel" and the indian aviators were born yesterday!

Please get rid of that attitude if you ever want to fly an Indian carrier. Thick heads is something not wanted in the cockpit environment.

Simple advice - take it or leave it.....

scroggs

11th Apr 2006, 11:46

Scroggs, you seem to have put a lot of research into this; you have more info on hand than most CEOs running the airlines in India...

Not really, but I do fly into India occasionally (Delhi and Mumbai), I watch what's said within Pprune, in Flight magazine and elsewhere, and I have a couple of contacts within the Indian industry. Just reading the News part of Pprune or Flight would give anyone enough information to understand that India will not be an open market for pilots. It's hardly an industrial secret!

It is painfully obvious sometimes that some wannabes only ever look within the Wannabes section of Pprune for their aviation information, and ignore the vast amount of knowledge available elsewhere in this site - not to mention other sources. Only yesterday within this forum, one of your number commented that he failed an interview because his knowledge of the industry (and even his potential employer) was inadequate. There is no excuse for this; information is very easy to come by. If you are adequately informed you will find it much easier to make sensible judgements of where to concentrate your energies when looking for a job - and to have the knowledge to impress your target employers.

I don't know :hmm:. You can take the horse to water....;)

Scroggs

Left Wing

11th Apr 2006, 12:03

Please get rid of that attitude if you ever want to fly an Indian carrier. Thick heads is something not wanted in the cockpit environment.:ok:

well said ! this goes for any carrier if you want to work as an expat in some one else's country.

scoggs, what a fresh approach..and then there are some guys to who come to India on ID tickets without a visa and claim their UK/USA citizenship give them the right to do so....

in short use the internet for research and not for free porn !

bafanguy

11th Apr 2006, 12:30

.
bafanguy, watch this space ..how fast India becomes a full local crew...ok:

As it should be. It's their party so THEY get to say who is invited. No reasonable person could hold any attitude of "entitlement" to a job in someone else's country...period...end of discussion.

For the entire 35 years I spent in domestic US airline flying, there was talk about the looming "pilot shortage" here; what a joke !!

I just think it's interesting to see how countries like China and India will handle what appears to be a legitimate need for more pilots than they have available to support their proposed operations. They may not be able to produce "experienced" pilots as fast as they need them not matter how many candidates they send to flight schools.

It'll be fun to watch.

Phileas Fogg

11th Apr 2006, 12:41

It's quite laughable the many international airline Captains and wannabee international airline pilots/Captains haven't got a clue regarding immigration issues and what happens when they have a passenger immigration issue on board?

So many Americans, let's say, who flew in/out of Heathrow for Delta for 15 years believe they have EU rights because, in their opinion, they have already worked in the EU and likewise so many nationalities, without so much as a type rating nor 500 hours on type, apply for jobs in such countries as India. Don't they realise that the airline has to justify their qualification(s) on type to receive their work visa and licence validation etc. for that particular position and if one ain't got the qualification(s) then one ain't going to get the work permit, the validation nor the job!

scroggs

11th Apr 2006, 13:26

China's problem is more pressing than India's. China has quite a well-developed and sophisticated internal airline system with all the associated infrastructure. The country is embracing capitalism rapidly (it was always a trade-based society, even in Communist years), and its economy is expanding at a tremendous rate. With several very large commercial centres up and down the Eastern and Southern coasts of the country, there is already a pent-up demand for air travel - it needs little extra encouragement. China has decided to order a lot of aircraft for delivery in the near future, and it can't crew them from its own resources as things stand. China also has a reasonably well-developed relationship with expatriate expertise in a number of fields, and is quite comfortable with the use of expat pilots. Of course, the lack of a democratic government and thus any risk to politicians in upsetting the populace may play a part here..!

The nature of Chinese and Indian politics and commerce are quite different, and the actions of one can't be easily read across to the other. China will accept expat pilots - at least for the forseeable future - India will not.

Scroggs

bafanguy

11th Apr 2006, 14:12

So many Americans, let's say, who flew in/out of Heathrow for Delta for 15 years believe they have EU rights because, in their opinion, they have already worked in the EU

A patently absurd statement....

And as for the "immigration" issues, if people aren't familiar with them it's because they didn't NEED to be familiar with them. But, circumstances change.

When they have a need, I guess they'll learn them....just like YOU did when you found the need.

scameron77

11th Apr 2006, 14:53

I started this thread to enquire as to if it was viable for me to pursue this Kingfisher vibe, the concensus seems to be no. Fair enough.

I'd also add that any pilot doing training in another part of the world (ie. Me UK citizen - training in the US) has probably delt with embassies and also looked into what their options are to stay and earn in that country unless they have a deep rooted hatred for that country (here its generally the Italians who can't wait to get back to Europe).

How do find out? . . . as Bafanguy correctly pointed out we look into when we stumble across it in our day to day lives. How much for a kilo of Mongolian Yaks Cheese? I dunno, but if I was going to open a pizza restaurant in downtown Ulaan Bator then you can bet your little behind I'd be up to speed.

Surely the whole point of PPRuNe is that the uneducated masses are enlightened by the few in the know already and they aren't castigated for doing so.

As for questioning Scroggs, to be honest the guy reads almost every post on here, over the past few years I bet he's seen every rumour/opportunity/fact/figure/lie and gleened the relevant info (despite all the bollocks and threads decending into name calling and personal vendettas around the 6 post mark). If he isn't in a position to say what HE thinks based on that, then who the hell is!

What I find laughable is how many people forget this and have a go.

By no means is this a suck up session to a moderator, I don't always agree with everything he says. However if I was on Who Wants to be a Millionaire? and Chris Tarrant asked 'Whats the chances of getting a F/O job in India?' I know who I'd use as my 'phone a friend'.

Phileas Fogg

11th Apr 2006, 15:25

A patently absurd statement....
And as for the "immigration" issues, if people aren't familiar with them it's because they didn't NEED to be familiar with them. But, circumstances change.
When they have a need, I guess they'll learn them....just like YOU did when you found the need.

Then why do I receive umpteen FAA/N. American applications weekly, if not daily, for JAR licensed EU positions?

Actions speak louder than words as they say!

bafanguy

11th Apr 2006, 18:03

Then why do I receive umpteen FAA/N. American applications weekly, if not daily, for JAR licensed EU positions?
Actions speak louder than words as they say!

Well, I certainly cannot account for people's inability to read a job posting if the license requirements were clearly stated.

However, these applications are by no means an indication of an attitude of entitlement to the job or the right work work in your country on the part of the applicants.

The incredible absurdity of your original statement regarding American pilots considering flying into an English airport as having "...UE rights..." stands firm on its own lack of merit.

Just throw away those applications that don't fit your requirements.

Phileas Fogg

11th Apr 2006, 19:19

Bafanguy,
Written applications were/are just part of it, once EST reaches 0900 the phone starts ringing, one asks specific questions as to does one have a JAR license to which a regular reply will be 'sure, I've got an ATPL' and when one asks regarding EU rights a regular answer will be regarding Delta Airlines for 15 years or similar.

I don't imagine these things, I talk to these people (I was about to call them something else) on a daily or weekly basis, many haven't got a clue regarding EU rights and that is fact.

Should you continue to disbelieve me then by all means post an EU/JAR job ad on climbto350.com and ask that they specify how they have EU rights when applying, I get the impression that you'll receive one hell of a shock.

P.S. You'll have to refer to it as European Union in your ad though because many don't understand what EU means!

scameron77

11th Apr 2006, 20:58

Kingfisher F/O thread + tangent = Start a new thread!

Left Wing

12th Apr 2006, 02:34

Still want to discuss FO in Kingfisher and FO jobs in India???:confused:

Jamborjp

12th Apr 2006, 03:47

Does any one know if Kingfisher would take Non-Resident Indians for the Second Office Position???
I'm a CFI in the USA with about 1000hrs Total Time 50 Multi......looking for something that first Airline job anywhere in the world....please give me some advise!!!

scroggs

12th Apr 2006, 06:15

You should talk to Kingfisher. I would have thought that so long as you have an Indian passport, you'll be in with a chance.

Scroggs

Jagbag

12th Apr 2006, 07:27

I agree with Scroggs.

Left Wing

12th Apr 2006, 08:04

Jamborjp
Indian passport is a must, DGCA India law FOs must be of Indian citizen ...green card holders are ok to apply as far as passport is Indian.

There is no SO position you are recuited as an FO.
Fly 100 sectors as observer do the radio & paper work (lots of it) pop quiz by the Capt on each flt. Then LOFT and released as FO in total 2-3 mths from type rating.

If you have a 1000hrs you will have no problems. Visit the DGCA web site to ensure you meet all the requirments.

100PIC
300nm x country
25hrs multi
nite check on multi by FAA examiner..
Log book stamped and letter of check ride from your FAA examiner with his rubber stamp.

scameron77

12th Apr 2006, 08:47

Can't hurt to apply. Especially if you have an Indian passport and can give an address in downtown Chennai or Mumbai for correspondence.

Give it a go and see what happens, you also may want to tell them you have all the requirements needed, then if you get invited for interview fly home 3 weeks early and book yourself onto a course to attain the COP/RTR.

All I would suggest is to post your experiences on here so other wannabes who meet the criteria can gain from it.

Also, this thread was started to adivse fellow wannabes about the opportunity with Kingfisher, subsequently it has been determined that as a non-Indian this and other Indian-subcontinent jobs are closed to felow EU/US nationals. OK, so I'll get the red marker pen out and scrub out India from my shiny mercator projection (can you guess I've recently sat Gen Nav).

What I was suggesting in my last post is that if the particular visa/immigration policy of a soverign state is to be questioned, debated, herranged or complimented then maybe a new thread should have been started in another forum, rather than adding to a thread in the first job/opportunity forum. I just feel this one has been 7500ed and should have been left (after establishing it was for Indian nationals only) that any further posts should have been advising on the recruitment process, experiences of those attending, etc. in the same way that the CTC, BA CityExpress threads progress.

bafanguy

12th Apr 2006, 15:38

Still want to discuss FO in Kingfisher and FO jobs in India???:confused:

Excellent idea !!

scameron77,

Good luck on that elusive first job. Here's just a thought: Just imagine how much confusion could have been avoided had the Kingfisher FO job posts contained a simple statement like "Indian labor and immigration law prohibits employment of any first officers unless they are Indian citizens; no exceptions are allowed."

When a job post goes on the internet, the entire world reads it. If the post doesn't say what the writer intended, only confusion can result as demonstrated by this thread.

There are lots of young people like you who are hungry and in the hunt so it's natural they would be applying everywhere they saw a possibility. Since no one can be expected to be walking around with an intimate knowledge of Indian labor/immigration law, Kingfisher could've help you out a lot with one simple sentence.

Phileas Fogg: I visited my sister-in-law outside Hull last month...and I have an ATPL. Can you give me a job????

yyzdub

12th Apr 2006, 16:14

Expat F/O’s in India:

I’ve heard from one of the many horses mouths that the Indian DGCA along with the Ministry of Home Affairs is evaluating lifting the block for foreign expat F/O’s so much so, that they have stipulated what the forecasted minimum requirements will be and the projected allowance date sometime in May or June 2006.

I don’t mean to throw a spanner into the works here with the previous responses but thought I’d let you know what I’ve heard, regardless of the countries possible ability to sustain its own needs.

Left Wing

13th Apr 2006, 02:45

yyzdub, very true. Jet & Kingfihser have been lobbying for it for a long timem as 9W have had cancell more than 20 flts due to the shortage. IT is unable to expand.

Dont know how far they will get.

Jamborjp

13th Apr 2006, 04:03

Thanks LeftWing
I'm not a Indian Citizen, I am a Kenyan Citizen...but my family is Indian. Seems like they will not take me as an FO. I wonder if I can get an Indian Citizenship through me family??? do u know if that can happen???
I think I meet the requirments I have:
1000TT
900 PIC
50 Multi Time
170hrs x-country
600 Instruction given

Jagbag

13th Apr 2006, 16:25

JJp

Try and look thru these pages, you might find an answer

http://www.mha.nic.in/oci/oci-main.htm also refer

http://www.immigrationportal.com/showthread.php?t=145132

hope that helps

Ravian

15th Apr 2006, 18:02

In the recently concluded April session of DGCA exams:

Total number of applicants was 2800
About two thirds of those appplicants took CPL papers
about a third took ATPL papers
negligible number of applicants for PPL, Helicopter etc.

Draw your own conclusions, gentlemen. (Should be easy around here ;) )

Cheers

R

p.s.: All rumours regarding hush-hush plans to change DGCA regulations have to be tempred by a real knowledge of the speed of Indian bureaucracy.

pps: The 'Kaw Committee recommendations' (google it) contain nothing about 'Foreign F/Os'. If one were to assume the committees recommendations are evaluation-execution priority for the legislators/bureaucrats, then... (draw your own conlusions once agian.)

ppps: this is one of the most fun threads I've read in a while!!

Left Wing

19th Apr 2006, 12:17

There was a lot of talk of Jet & Kingfihser putting pressure for expat FOs, well here goes.

For now DGCA India as allowed type rated FOs on turbo props on the same contract as expat capts.....Guess this will be applicable to jet rated FOs very soon.

:O :O :O so go ahead and flood into the ripe FO market.

BTW would like place a large order for humble pie...

iamanaussiemavrick

1st May 2006, 10:11

HI,

I am 17 now and finished 12 years of schooling. I was planning to do CPL training both theory and practical in Basair aviation college, Bankstown airport,sydney,australia. After that i would like to work with some airlines,as opportunities are in india i would like to work in india.

Can you tell me whether my decision to study in australia than in India is good.

Also what will it take to work for bigger airlines like Emirates,singapore airlines. Is it possible for me as i am indian citizen.

Longing for all yours reply.

Regards

Kanak Chandramohan
ph:00919446922825

Left Wing

1st May 2006, 11:27

www.air-titan.com talk to these guys in Cochin very good set up.

BroomstickPilot

1st May 2006, 21:04

Left Wing,

Do you please know whether licences obtained at Air Titan would be issued under the DGCA, the FAA, Jaa or some other examining authority? I have looked at their website and there is no information about this and no 'Contact Us' button.

I notice also there is no mention of the ATPL or ATP.

Whatever happened to the Indira Ghandi Flying School? Or was that a military outfit?

Broomstick.

dxbpilot

1st May 2006, 23:27

Amazing time to start your pilot career especially with the indian passport ! maybe you should give a couple of operaters in india a call and find out exactly what they want as alot of them are taking very low time pilots.

good luck !

dxb

Ravian

2nd May 2006, 20:34

Broomstick,

the air-titan 'contact us' is right there on the home page!

[email protected]; look up the phone numbers under 'contact us' if you need them.

the Indira Gandhi Rashtriya Udan Academy can be found here: http://www.igrua.gov.in/

All Indian flight schools will train you towards a DGCA licence.
------------------------------------------------------------------

iamanaussiemavrick,

Do your training in Oz - it'll be much much faster, and (dare I say it out loud) much better quality. Training at Igrua may be an exception quality-wise, but even there a CPL course will take upwards of two years.

Cheers

R

Left Wing

3rd May 2006, 05:44

Indira Gandhi Rashtriya Udan Academy is close to death, no flt inst as all of them were grabbed by the airlines. Govt owned hence will not pay top dollar for expat inst.

All flt schools in India will only issue a DGCA CPL and ICAO approved ATPL which is accepted world wide...

iamanaussiemavrick, get your DGCA medicals & papers cleared first all the best !

kaptain

3rd May 2006, 15:56

I apologise if i am writing this in the wrong section.... but please i need some advice and info...

I hold an Australian CPL/ME as well as a Malaysian CPL/IR/ME/FROZEN ATPL for Aeroplanes. In addition, i have a bachelor degree in Aviation Studies from Australia. I am an Indian national.

These are my flight times:

Total Flight Time 328:30
Total Night Flight 17:40
Pilot in Command / P1 U/S 082:37
Night Flying PIC/ P1 U/S 06:06
Twin Time (M/E) 049:18
Total IFR Time 30:03
IFR Time PIC/ P1 U/S 04:05

Currently endorsed on Twins (Partenavia (14hrs) and Piper Seneca (35hrs)

I would like to convert my licences to India for issuance of indian CPL/IR/ME/FROZEN ATPL so that i can apply to airlines in India.

Can anyone who has done similar things or anyone who has done a conversion help out on:

What are the things i have to do to convert.... in order? I mean what should i do first now? After that what?

I can come down immediately once i find out what i need to do to gain those and the full costing as well as duration.

Also any ground course for the written exams which are exam oriented?

What abt accomodation?

Kindly let me know as soon as possible. Thanking you very much in advance.

Regards,

ant1

4th May 2006, 08:58

Someone just told me that Lufthansa was supplying many Pilots to India so no real shortage.

Anything true about this :confused:

Left Wing

5th May 2006, 03:02

LH went to Jet with this offer ..did not go thru. Jet did manage to get cheaper pilots from Olympic Airlines

ant1

5th May 2006, 18:24

Thanks for the answer. What was the deal with Olympic Pilots?

Dr Rumack

6th May 2006, 09:21

Hi to everyone!

And what do you think about the possibility of pay your own line training in one of these companies in order to get an HT with no restrictions and type hours???

Would it be any chance if you speak with them about this option?

Don't you think that is better go and speak in person with them instead of send a lot of mails as eveybody do?

Thanks

iamanaussiemavrick

9th May 2006, 04:56

Hi,

I am going to do CPL training in Australian and my ambition is to become a professional airline pilot for big airlines like Emirates or SA.

Can anyone tell me about the job opportunity i have with just CPL+Instrument Rating.....in INDIA with Air India/Indian or with any other domestic airlines like Jet Airways, King Fisher, GoAir, Air Deccan, Spice Jet,

Longing for all yours reply

Regards

Kanak Chandramohan

e-mail: [email protected]
ph: 00919446922825

Jinkster

9th May 2006, 09:13

From the research I have done, if your an indian national then I imagine quite high.

Good luck!
:ok:

Aussie_Pilot

13th May 2006, 10:08

Alex 009

15th Jun 2006, 08:25

I know at the moment that the Indian airline market is currently exploding, with every national from the country with a CPL applying to the numerous jobs that will occupy the RHS of an A320/737/ATR 72, but what is happening with regards to all the instructors from the flying schools? From what I hear from a few Indians on my course is that most of the instructos have left there jobs to step up to something with a turbo prop or fan engine. So how easy would it be for A. An indian national to get instructor work there, and B. for a foreigner with a JAA, CASA etc instructor rating with command multi engine instrument rating to gain a job instructing?

Left Wing

19th Jun 2006, 03:35

A. Indian nationals dont even apply for inst jobs as they are grabbed by the airlines as soon as they get an Indian CPL some are even flying ATRs with out multi engine rating.

B. There are no quality flt schools other than www.air-titan.com they will hire xpat inst if you have 750 hrs of inst time.

Its amazing the Indian govt is issuing AOCs to airlines every day and the approval for an FTO takes 1 yr...besides the red tape to convert your intl CPL to Indian CPL:ugh: :mad:

If you have some kind of turbo rating start hunting for corporates in India as all those pilots have joined the airlines as well

BroomstickPilot

19th Jun 2006, 09:14

Thanks, Ravian.

RAJA_CANADA

22nd Jun 2006, 05:46

hellooo.. everybody.,

I`m just starting my pilot career from scratch., meanwhile i`m bit more curious abt pilots job market in india., and how easy to get.,

As you guys are experts and professionals in everybodys` dream job please say your opinion .,

it`ld be more helpfull for me and somebody like me with great aspires

I appreciate you for your time.,

Thank you & GREAT TAKE-OFFS AND SAFE LANDINGS

dxbpilot

22nd Jun 2006, 06:24

hey canidian !

i'm guessing you have a indian passport?

iamanaussiemavrick

22nd Jun 2006, 06:28

Hi,

Go to South-East Asia Forum..It's the place for u to be...

Also go to www.indianpilots.com (http://www.indianpilots.com)

Have u started ur training..

Can i know more about u..

Regards

Kanak

Left Wing

22nd Jun 2006, 09:25

RAJA_CANADA,

Indian citizen & passport..jobs no problem...

if not none of the above..

RAJA_CANADA

27th Jun 2006, 06:38

hi., what abt dual citizenship.,

b`cas i have dual citizenship for both canada and india.,

do you guys think it`ll affect any of future career.,

pls help me out.,

THANK YOU SO MUCH

RAJA

purr

27th Jun 2006, 15:14

there have been expat fo's in the rt seat all of them were married to indians i think.:E

JAJAJA

28th Jun 2006, 11:55

Hi, does anybody know when this law is going to change?
Because Indian has a shortage of Captains and F/O (copilots), so they will need expat pilots to continue the normal operations.

Flying Roo

21st Jul 2006, 01:21

Hello all

Just need an input from all the experienced people in the industry. I am palnning to enter the world of aviation at 33 therefore by the time im 34 i will be fully qualified for an entry level position in India. I am an Australian resident\Overseas citizen of India.

My questions and concerns are:

1. Is it too late to join the industry. Does age play a significant role in getting employment in India?
2. Can an OCI\NRI apply for entry level positions in India?

Any comments would be appreciated

Bobs-Your-Uncle

27th Aug 2006, 21:34

India.

Ok I'm gonna ask this question and hope to get some kind of structured and balanced replies.

I've been looking at India and Asia for a first flying job. It does seem that India has a booming economy. Lots of new low cost carriers starting up. I think that some of the new ones that buy odd types like Embraer or Bombardier get their training costs paid for by the manufacturer and therefore don't have huge training costs.

Are any of the carriers in India likely to employ non Indian nationals? I've researched it a bit and there seems a mix of those that will and most that won't. Are there any non Indian nationals that have moved out there with a JAA licence and got a good job and can give us lot back home a "heads up" and feedback?

Cheers/Bob

Lucifer

28th Aug 2006, 00:52

Absolutely no way whatsoever at a low experience level - the Indian airline industry is so up to its neck in unions that it has been unable to merge Indian Airlines and Air India for over a decade, let alone employ foreigners. You could get lucky through an agency as they are so desperately short, but otherwise no.

Try China - where the people are so powerful that they run the country...but are actually not allowed a "real" union...(and love capitalism...)

Never Down

28th Aug 2006, 06:57

Lucifer, is not true.
I try hundred times to contact, and no job offer......

RMP2

28th Aug 2006, 13:21

My friend has been hired in India to fly the A320 as F/O, he has no Indian passport nor Indian license. He had a FAA type rating with no hours on type. I am also in the process, just waiting for the security clearance. The airline prep. us for oral and written tests with the DGCA, so we get one year license validation to fly Indian registered aircrafts....

AF036

4th Sep 2006, 11:18

Hi, I'm very new here!
I'm a non-experienced pilot (newly graduated) within the JAA.
I hear a lot about Asia and especially about China and India.
These countries are developing so fast, their airlines do the same and they will be in need of lots of pilots I guess.
So may I ask does anyone have some tips about how it is to work there?
Air Deccan, Kingfisher, Jet Airways, SpiceJet...
and is it possible to find a 1st job there?
thanks in advance!
Julien

bear11

5th Sep 2006, 15:32

I suggest you look under "rest of the world" forums and check under "South Asia and the Far East" which covers India.

The not-good news is that they are currently taking experienced expat Captains only.

Aussie

6th Sep 2006, 01:28

Mate, im pretty sure that they have now opened it to expat FO too.

Aussie

AF036

6th Sep 2006, 07:57

tx guys,
I didn't know there was a dedicated topic..

bear11

6th Sep 2006, 08:57

The fact that Indian carriers have advertised for expat F/Os does not mean they're legal yet! An expat mate who flies down there checked it out last week with his Indian manager - he was told that they were waiting for approval, expected in "a few weeks". That's an Indian "few weeks" by the way, because they've been waiting for permission a few months so far. The Indian guy said that when it does come in, it will not be for raw F/Os, and they will have to have a type rating as a minimum. And don't forget security clearance will take 6 weeks typically, and possibly a lot longer depending on the airline.

Indian pilots on pprune have pointed out (politely, mainly) for some time now that there are no jobs in India for low hours, non type-rated, non-Indian pilots - you may not like it, but that's the way it is.

don_salvatore87

10th Sep 2006, 21:18

I live in Sweden, currently training at Swedish pilot Academy in Gothenburg, my mom is indian and I speak fluent hindi, do the indian carriers require their future first officers to speak the native language?

alexb757

23rd Sep 2006, 13:27

Some interesting posts here.
No foriegn pilots, at least no ex-pat FOs. Really? Remember the saying never say never??
Well, in case no one has noticed, Jet Airways is looking for exactly that. OK it does not say locals (or nationals) and the hours are somewhat low. But then why would they advertise openly on flightglobal.com which has international coverage???
All they ask for is min 1000 hours (subject to govt approval) and an appropriate type rating - but does not have to be in an aircraft on their fleet?!
According to their big expansion plans, not only are they in need of all the TRE/TRIs/Line Captains etc but also ex-pat, experienced FOs for THREE-YEAR contracts. Doesn't sound like they are pitching for locals here and if not, there must be a reason.
What do you think that is?
Also, with foreign licences, you don't always need to convert. There is a thing called a validation, usually given for a year or so and sometimes indefinitely. I've twice worked overseas for non-EU airlines and was able to get a validation but then I had the ratings and time on type.
So, what it may boil down to is that the DGCA might be warming to EXPERIENCED ex-pat FOs with several thousand hours, several type ratings and an ability to upgrade quickly. As RMP2 has stated before, there are always exceptions to the rule provided you have something to offer that they clearly need.
Comments, please...................

alexb757

23rd Sep 2006, 13:49

In case anyone doubts it, this is the ad mentioned above and it does not sound like a position for a low-time, non-type rated Indian national, does it?
The aviation business is becoming ever more global so this should not come as any big surprise. After all, what goes around, comes around eg. US/UK/EU outsourcing of jobs to India and other countries. Now it would seem the boot is on the other foot.

First Officers - ATR 72-500, B737 NG, A330 / 340 and B777 Posted9 Aug 06Close date6 Feb 07LocationIndiaApply for this Job
Job DescriptionWelcome to Jet Airways - India’s largest and most preferred airline.
Our fleet consists of 43 classic and next generation Boeing 737-400/700/800/900 aircraft, 3 Airbus A340-300E aircraft, 1 Airbus A330-200 and 8 modern ATR 72-500 turboprop aircraft. With an average age of 5.1 years, we have one of the youngest aircraft fleet in the world. Jet Airways’ operates over 320 daily flights to 48 destinations that span the length and breadth of India and beyond including London, Singapore, Kuala Lumpur, Colombo, and Kathmandu.
This is just the beginning of our journey as we plan to conquer the global skies with our vast expansion plans resulting in rapid growth of our route network all over the world and doubling of our fleet size by the end of 2010. Commencing October 01, 2006, we will be setting a European base for A330/340 and beginning of March 2007 for B777.
To spearhead the airline’s expansion plan, we are looking for dynamic and ambitious Pilots to fly the world’s most modern and advanced fleet of ATR 72-500, B737 NG, A330 / 340 and B777. We have career opportunities for TREs, TRIs, Line Captains and First Officers for all the fleet types. So if you are ready for an exciting and challenging career - Come and be a part of the winning team!!!
Minimum Qualification:
First Officers - * 1000 hrs Total Flying Hours plus a current type rating.
Note : (* ) Subject to Government Regulations
We are also looking for pilots above the age of 60.
Terms of Employment:
• Three year renewable contract for all positions / categories of employment
• Besides a high flying career, we offer competitive remuneration package which commensurates with international standards.
• Pick up and drop facility for all flights.
• Schedule –
India Based :
B737/ATR : Scheduled on 8 weeks ON 2 weeks OFF basis
Wide body : Scheduled on 6 weeks ON 2 weeks OFF basis
Europe Based (only wide body):
28 days paid leave in 12 months (Pro – rated for any part of year)
• In India, we provide a fully furnished 2 bedroom apartment or $1800 as accommodation allowance.
• For European base, pilots will remain on their home of records and Jet Airways will provide them with low cost ticket to reach the departure airport one day prior to the assigned flight duty. In addition, they will be provided with one over night stay in the respective crew hotel. At the end of the flight duty the pilot with return to their home of records.
For any additional information about Jet Airways please visit our website i.e. www.jetairways.com

Ravian

24th Sep 2006, 02:08

Times of India
[ 22 Sep, 2006 0005hrs ISTTIMES NEWS NETWORK ]

NEW DELHI: In a bid to tide over the pilot shortage issue in the market, India has decided to scrap the norm that mandated domestic airlines to have at least one Indian pilot inside an aircraft cockpit.

Effectively, domestic airlines can now have only expat pilots steering an aircraft in the domestic skies.

However, airlines have been permitted to avail of this facility only as a stop-gap arrangement till such time as their trainee Indian pilots are awaiting certification and authorisation from the DGCA, sources said.

"In all such cases where both captain and co-pilot are expats, airlines must have an Indian trainee pilot in cockpit for supernumary training. As and when this Indian trainee pilot completes his training, the expats can be phased out," a government source said.

This, sources said, will help the airlines meet their immediate need for trained manpower. "While helping the airlines move ahead with their expansion plans, this new norm is also aimed at protecting the interests of Indian pilots," a source said.

With the boom in air travel, over a dozen start-up carriers are mushrooming across the country, leading to a shortage of trained pilots in the country. India's two state-owned carriers — Air-India and Indian Airlines — alone are facing a shortage of around 150 pilots. In order to fill the gap, airlines are now hiring expatriate pilots for operating planes.

According to industry estimates, at least 4,000 additional pilots would be required in the Indian skies over the next five years. The shortage of trained pilots has led to a massive poaching exercise with airlines offering huge salaries to woo pilots from rivals.

This had earlier forced the government to hike the retirement age for pilots from 60 to 65 years, and even knock on the doors of Indian Air Force for help.