Flying Pay

[egdg]

I'm curious to know a couple of things about flying pay. If I get selected to fly as a fighter controller will I will get more flying pay than a Warrant Officer loadmaster who could have spent 30 years doing that job?
Seems a bit strange but a no-brainer if its true.

[ratty1]

I'm curious to know a couple of things about flying pay. If I get selected to fly as a fighter controller will I will get more flying pay than a Warrant Officer loadmaster who could have spent 30 years doing that job?
Seems a bit strange but a no-brainer if its true.

I think you will find that most Macr ALM's of 30 Years will be on the PAS now so I they will earn more than you even when you get flying pay. The difference is that your flying pay will stop when you go back to a ground job, as you are not Aircrew..........................:ok:

[fantaman]

The difference is that your flying pay will stop when you go back to a ground job, as you are not Aircrew..........................:ok:

Nice one :} :ok:

[c130jbloke]

Last 2 posts said it all really, topic over.

:bored:

[Anita Bush]

Why on earth do you want to be a fighter controller?
Is it to work in a hole in the ground with no windows or fly a race track in an aircraft ....... with no windows?

I'd love to be a Wg Cdr FC............... but I couldn't afford the pay cut!:ok:

[southside]

Apart from the fact that Commanders don't get flying pay

[Now a 'J' Bloke!!]

Southsh**e

Not your service chap!!!

Go play with your 'golden rivet'

More LAter;
'J' Bloke!!
:hmm:

Edited for red wine speeling

[Dogfish]

In this day and age why do we still have flying pay? I have never been paid extra for fixing the :mad: jets so why should you get more for flying them. Surely this is another hangover from WW2, a bit like parachute pay. I would have thought you winged ringers got paid quite enough for your services as it is. :\

[frodo_monkey]

Dogfish, my dear chap, I fear you are about to get bantered back to the Stone Age... :E

[Dogfish]

Bring it on :p

[ZH875]

If flying pay was to compensate for requiring higher life insurance premiums, then as a large number of grow-bags spend much of the working day flying a desk (Skiving off early for the rest of it), then flying pay should be stopped for those on ground tours, as extra life insurance premiums are not required for being earth bound.

If 'Desk' pay was required, the Blunties would be paid a fortune.

But as we all know, the RAF is run by aircrew for aircrew, and as that is unlikely to change, then you should either put up with it, or go back and do better at Skool.

Maybe flying pay is paid so that the occupant of a grow-bag can go private to have it surgically removed when leaving the services, thus looking less of a Tw*t in civvy street.

[ratty1]

In this day and age why do we still have flying pay? :\

Those of us on PAS don't get Flying pay..............:ok:

[ZH875]

Ah PAS, the officers that have been fitted with a Spine.

[ratty1]

Ofiicers?............Didnt you know NCA are invited to join these days?

[Ivan Rogov]

I've got to agree with the guys who want to do away with Flying Pay. That way they would need to increase my basic wage to encourage me to stay and I would get a better pension, oh that would cost more :{ . I dream of PAS.
I thought flying pay was to retain aircrew as it would cost more than that to train new ones all the time? I'm sure the bean counters make sure it is the best deal for the service.

[TURNBULL]

Didnt you know NCA are invited to join these days?
Yeah, never understood that one; not like there was ever a retention problem - massive exit to the airlines, etc. :confused:

[Axial Flo]

Dogfish, ZH875
Flying pay is officially there as a retention measure. Its very simple - if I don't get flying pay which brings my salary up to a reasonable level I sell my skills to the airline industry.
To quote a response to a senior officer a few years ago:
"Sir, you can't buy loyalty, but you can buy bums on seats."
PAS don't receive flying pay as their salary is considered to be increased to a level which will retain them.
Flo

[Dogfish]

I thought you got paid a retention bonus to keep you in? Ten grand plus I believe. As for the extra insurance I thought that SRIPs was there to help offset the extra premiums. When you get senoirs who only fly a couple of times a month how can their flying pay be justified?:rolleyes:

[ZH875]

But there are only a limited number of civvy aircraft seats for the bums who fly planes, therefore if all the bums in the RAF left to fill them, then the new bums would have nowhere to go, so would (if flying is so good and great) stay with their bum on a Martin Baker. so would accept pay at a level that a Techie can only dream off.

[ratty1]

Now you are starting to worry us with your obsession with Aircrew bums.........................:eek:

[Hoots]

I am not one to stir things up between air and ground crew as I used to be a ground tradesman myself, I also believe that both do need each other. Before I mention flying pay etc. I am very aware of the pressures that the ground crew are under these days, in particular due to the leaning process. Things are at an all time low, that includes morale, airframe sevicibility/availability and funding to HM Forces in real terms. Many individuals are eagerly awaiting the results of the Tranche 3 redundances, which affects mainly the aircraft trades. I know of several people who are awaiting these results, either to get the redundancy package or to leave regardless if not selected. Flying pay is an emotive subject, from being one who didn't get it in my previous life to one who now gets it I can see both points of view. Flying pay is there for a reason as were the retention bonuses, that not every one qualified for. I wanted to move on from my ground trade, even though I loved it and the thought of getting paid more was one of the many reasons to jump ship to NCA. We are very short of pilots and WSOps various so rather than complain about it why don't some of you apply for aircrew, after the roughly 3 years of training you too can be getting flying pay. This doesn't resolve the lack of aircraft maintainers and experience levels in that field, seems madness that we're getting rid of the people we should be trying to keep. Lastly, I read with interest that there was a whinge about Wg Cdrs getting flying pay, I can assure some of those doubters, Southside included, that certainly my boss does his fair share (including OOA) in these days of pilot shortages as well as putting in the many extra hours running the Sqn and doing all the admin that comes along with that role. I wish I had a magic wand to fix all the problems, but in these days of buget considerations, overstretch and even more leaning (cutbacks) what can we do. Well maybe one thing is to at least understand each others problems, so that if we are going to bitch we can do it in the appropriate direction and not at each other.

[Hoots]

Turnbull if there are no shortage of WSOps suggest you look at the RAF Careers website and youll see what trades are urgently required, like Gunners, Musicians, ATC, Fighter Controllers and WSOps. Dental and Nursing Officers also required. Can take a while to scroll through.
www.rafcareers.com/jobselector/
In an ideal world there would be retention packages for all.

[Two's in]

The response to the Flying Pay question is the same as it has always been. Show the individual in question the appropriate application form for Flying Pay. Now admittedly, it may not be called the "Flying Pay Application Form" these days, it's probably called something like the "Aircrew Selection Form", but it's all the same. Fill it in, pass the medical, pass the selection, pass the course, pass the operational training, collect the dosh. Simple, and works for any branch of the Services.

[grousehunter]

Ah but should that Navigator who sits very near me on the Mighty Hunter get more flying (danger?) pay? Now that I will never understand. True, as an Officer you should get paid more. However if flying pay is some kind of danger money, or incentive to stay then it should be equal for all Aircrew who fly regardless of rank.

[Oggin Aviator]

However if flying pay is some kind of danger money, or incentive to stay then it should be equal for all Aircrew who fly regardless of rank.
I was going to write a post about how SSP(F) is a retention measure and being Devil's Advocate say that (rightly or wrongly) the bean counters see a distinct hierachy in exportable skills amongst aviators, therefore pilots get the most, then Commissioned WSOPs, then NCAs. However, if I did write a post like this, I would immediately be charged with elitism and flamed massively. But then again I wouldnt really care as I am off for while with not much proone access so it wouldnt really matter. Anyway in order to prevent this happening I think I will just b*gger off back to the Fleet Air Arm forum on rumration.com and chat merrily with my chums, the finest military aircrew and support personnel this country possesses. However, the server running rumration is complete arrse (in 2 ways actually) and is particularly slow (unlike this top notch website), probably because it's core backbone runs off a pongo rumour forum which is typical of the way the pongos do their business - laborious and inefficient. So I think I won't bother with that post at all. Goodnight.
Oggin
(see, if I had submitted that post I would have inflamed NCA aircrew, the whole of the RAF and the Army, so its a good job that I didnt!) :}

[grousehunter]

Nah you wouldn't!!!! It was just an observation!;)

[Delta Hotel]

Well done Hoots for a clear and well argued post.

All 3 Services, and all ranks who fly aircraft, joined the aircrew cadre knowing the full score with regards to flying pay. All those who joined HM Forces who aren't aircrew, knew that they wouldn't get flying pay when they joined, so please stop having a 'chip' on your shoulder on the topic.

I think Formula One drivers get paid too much, but I understood that you have to be one in order to receive the benefits. If you want the cash, then do the job.......;)

[Autorev]

How many times does this need explaining......
Aircrew are not required to justify the flying pay they receive - they only need to spend it!
Stop paying me flying pay and I leave. Simple.

[Dogfish]

Thought so, all the usual tosh about working harder at school and 'I am all right jack'. Do any other Service professionals get extra pay for doing their primary job? I am given to understand that sub-mariners get extra dosh but what about all the other boat drivers in the RN? Surely driving a destroyer or aicraft carrier is every bit as demanding as flying a plane, so do you get extra? Always assuming you don't crash into the only rock for fifty miles that is.:{ Why do you Avian Master race types feel you deserve special treatment? If flying the winged equivelent of a formula one car is not enough to keep you interested then sod off and fly pissed up tourists to Benadorm in a winged double decker.

[Al Fresco]

Dogfish

Yes, they do. How about doctors, lawyers etc etc.

The simple fact is, that if you want to do 4 years training and get paid an extra £10 a day after this trg for the first four years, then crack on and join us.

If you think aircrew would hang around without this pay, when you could earn substantially more outside the Forces, then think again. By the way the FRI has been canned in the RAF - but not the Navy I understand! Some GR-7 pilots being paid more than others?? Feel free to correct me if I'm talking b@llox.

[cazatou]

Dogfish,

Extra Pay for doing their jobs?

Well, how about Naval clearance divers or Bomb Disposal in any of the Services?

As for you; well you have been specially selected to train as a Forward Air Controller to operate with deep penetration SAS Teams. You will be required to undergo a "Short Course" on "High Altitude Low Opening" (HALO) Parachute Techniques. In view of your objections parachute pay will not be granted; nor will hazardous duty pay or refund of any increase in your life insurance premiums.

You are recommended to seek a Solicitors advice regarding a will.

[Tourist]

Dogfish.
If I wasn't paid a lot more than you, I wouldn't be able to support my lavish lifestyle.
It's easy for you stupid ugly people, you have no idea of the pressures us important attractive people are under. I mean, my porsche is getting old now (practically last century!), and I havn't blown £1000 on champagne in one piss up for some months now. People are starting to talk! Take away my Junior Officers Unnecessary Purchase money(known as Flying Pay) and I would be rightly flung from my yacht club for resembling an oik like you.
I hope that clears things up......
........oh before you go, kindly clean my hire car and drop it off at MT....there's a good chap, chop chop.

[Autorev]

Yes thanks Dogfish. Jack is quite alright thank you very much...doing the job for the rate of pay published when he/she decided to become aircrew.
Why should aircrew have to justify it. They receive it, now get over it....

[Green Bottle 2]

The reason that they want to retain aircrew and so are willing to pay flying pay is that they have invested very significant sums of money in their training.

I do not have the exact figures, but consider for example each Chinook hour cost 14,000 pounds and an OCF will give Abo pilots say 100 hours - that equals 1.4 million pounds. Divide by 4 as you will be training 4 people at a time so the cost for the Chinook OCF is 300,000 pounds +. That is for the OCF alone; then add EFT, BFT and subsequently any post grad training and you have a significant investment.

So you want to retain an individual that you have invested so much money in and flying pay is one way of doing this.

You could remove flying pay and there would be an exodus - not just to the airlines so even when the airline industry saturates, there would still be an outflow. The training system could in no way cope with the numbers exiting - it struggles at the moment in many areas.

In short flying pay is a retention tool for personnel who have had a lot of money invested. It is not danger money and it is not a measure of a particular individual's worth in the military. Everyone in the military is there to support UK defence policy - aircrew are just one link in the chain that achieves that.

GB2

[toothytiger]

Original by Anita Bush
I'd love to be a Wg Cdr FC............... but I couldn't afford the pay cut!:ok:

I'd love to be a Wg Cdr Pilot.... but I couldn't afford the pay cut either!

Smiling DentO:)

[L1A2 discharged]

Dogfish,
Extra Pay for doing their jobs?
Well, how about Naval clearance divers or Bomb Disposal in any of the Services?
.
Caz,

may have missed your meaning on this one ... RN Clearance Divers do get extra dosh (loads), no other UK service EOD Operators or assistants do. The US Army get about £85 per month as qualification pay.

Hope this correct a misaprehension.

:)

[Dogfish]

I just love toys that don't need batteries....just wind them up and let them go. Less off the oik though if you don't mind. Remember to play nicely:p

[Tonkenna]

Some people just get paid more than others... can't see what the problem is. Flying pay... boring:zzz:

Tonks

[ratty1]

Now then please remind again me why I don't get flying pay. Thats it I am PAS......................:ok:

[Runaway Gun]

Mr Tonks, please send some of your boring flying pay to me Merci :)

[southside]

How many times does this need explaining......
Aircrew are not required to justify the flying pay they receive - they only need to spend it!
Stop paying me flying pay and I leave. Simple.

wouold you really leave if they stopped Flying pay? Would anyone else go if they took away flying pay?

[Tonkenna]

Sorry RG... I am PAS as well, so don't get any;)

As for leaving if there was no flying pay.. I guess loads would if that ment a pay cut!!!

Tonks:hmm:

[PPRuNeUser0172]

If you want flying pay then get a flying job. Simple eh? If you cant be @rsed/don't want to go through all the hoops, training and have to do a pretty stressful job, which might even kill you if you're not 100% on your game then carry on as ground pounders and stop winging. You had as much chance as anyone else.

In the meantime grow up, if you don't like it leave.

[Biggus]

Those people who 'knock' flying pay no doubt object to all other forms of specialist pay, e.g submariners, divers, etc, with equal venom???

[airborne_artist]

Those people who 'knock' flying pay no doubt object to all other forms of specialist pay, e.g submariners, divers, etc, with equal venom???

Hit the nail on the head there Biggus - never had any REMFs grumble at me when I was in receipt of SF and Para pay - can't think why :E

[Autorev]

Southsidewouold you really leave if they stopped Flying pay? Would anyone else go if they took away flying pay?
You betcha!
How many people would accept a £13,000+ pay cut and not walk?
Not many, I'd wager!
We could then try a scheme such as...oh, say FRI, to keep 'em in...
As Tonkenna says, this subject is exceedingly dull - mainly due to its simplicity.

[Ken Scott]

Flying pay is really very simple. It's paid to people with a hard earned & very marketable skill in recognition of that skill, which is why it increases over time. It therefore is aimed at retaining people who have expensively acquired a range of skills over a long period & who might otherwise sell those skills to BA/ Virgin etc. To take flying pay off those in a ground job would penalise those who were either being groomed for promotion or were just posted there, as despite the creation of the Ops Support branch there are still some jobs that need an aircrew bod in them. To take a huge (when on full flying pay) paycut to be sent to a ground post would probably be the biggest non-retention scheme the MOD could invent!

Historically extra pay for aircrew reflected the danger & short life span of the job, & was resented by their more earth bound colleagues even then.

Strangely, I rarely hear criticism of RAF doctors, dentists & lawyers & their special rates of pay for their hard earned skills for which they could earn more outside.

[L J R]

Mr Scott,

Are Virgin, BA et al now recruiting Doctors, Lawyers etc?

.

[Now a 'J' Bloke!!]

Stoopid Boy...

Don't tell them your name LJR!!!:ok:

More LAter;
'J' Bloke!!:cool:

[civobs]

if it's a matter of retention, why not just extend the minimum required service time?

[Biggus]

civobs

You would have to extend the length of time from submitting a PVR to exiting the service, rather than the 'minimum required service time'.



Flying pay is about retention, and saving the taxpayer, government, MoD, RAF etc money. The last figure I heard was about £5 million to train a FJ pilot, £3 million for a ME pilot. No doubt the figures may be higher today. Pilots do have a skill that is 'saleable' in the commercial world, and there is a demand for it. Have no doubt about that. There has recently been an advert at the top of the pprune page where RyanAir were recruiting, with first officers on about £50,000-£70,000 I seem to remember. In pure cost terms which is better for UK plc. Pay a military pilot £35,000, but replace him every 10 years when he leaves for the airlines (cost over 30 years for ME pilot using my figures = £10.05 million) or pay one military pilot £50,000 but retain him for 30 years (cost = £4.5 million). As a taxpayer which would you rather fund?

[Ken Scott]

LJR

I fear you rather miss the point, of course BA, Virgin etc prefer pilots to Doctors & lawyers to fly their planes, the point was a general one - in a demand & supply economy, even where you bind people with lengthy minimum contract periods, you have to pay a reasonable 'going rate' to retain your staff. I remember a debate in Parliament in the early 80s where the exodus of pilots was being discussed, & MPs called for 'immediate steps to stop them leaving'. In a free society you can't 'chain people to the wheel', most of us signed up for 16 years from a very young age anyway, you have to encourage us to remain. Our job is, in most cases, likely to be more fun than the competition outside, we just can't compete on pay & conditions, (tents in this desert v 5* hotels + rates etc).

The MOD can close the gap financially by paying us extra salary which is why flying pay exists - if they didn't they'd have a bit of a retention problem. They can try & up the committment that youngsters sign up for but then they might have a recruitment problem - 16 years already seems a helluva long time when you're 18. Seems to me the present system is ok, except flying pay should be pensionable, but for those who remain in the longer term it is anyway on the PAS. I also think that other branches, such as Engineers who all have to be graduates, should be paid different rates, similar to the branch system for other ranks. I'm not trying to 'diss' the other branches such as Admin, I think they do a masterful job of trying to save taxpayer's money by preventing anyone from claiming anything, but the General Duties branch is dead, pay should be more job specific.

[PPRuNeUser0172]

Spot on Ken

It seems the RAF is still in the cycle of boom or bust when it comes to aircrew retention, with most fleets under-crewed and the airlines having a healthy recruitment drive, it cant be long before we become dangerously short of experience................again.

Oh well, I guess this might mean that the FRI might be re-introduced at some stage in the future;)

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

Listening to Radio 5 a couple of days ago and it seems the commercial world are well short of experianced second officers and are looking for folks with around a 1000 hrs/ATPL.............now where have we got loads and loads of them:p

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[airborne_artist]

Article in the Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/main.jhtml?xml=/money/2006/03/27/cnair27.xml) two days ago:

"The airline industry is struggling to find pilots as demand for flights fuelled by no-frills airlines continues to grow.

While carriers continue to expand their networks, the soaring cost of aviation fuel is making training increasingly prohibitive, with one estimate putting the cost of getting a licence at more than £60,000.

Figures, show the number of UK-registered pilots falling from 2,723 in 2002-3 to 2,400 in 2004-5. According to the Civil Aviation Authority the number of planes taking off from and landing at British airports increased by 6pc in 2004 - the latest year for which figures are available.

British Airways is advertising for pilots, Ryanair is scouring Europe for recruits, and Easyjet has slashed its flying experience requirement from 1,500 to 500 hours."

[South Bound]

Ahhhhhh, the age-old flying pay argument, still as dull as ever.

There still seem to be those among my ground-based brethren that have an issue with it - I just don't understand why.

Like military doctors, dentists, etc, aircrew have very marketable skills outside the forces and to retain these specialists they need to be paid a bit more.

It is just a shame that aircrew are not just paid on a different (clearly higher!) payscale like the med guys, then this whole argument would just go away.

Then we could start one on the extra year's seniority they get as officers....;)

[Joe Black]

Couldn't agree with you more southbound. Having us on a higher Pay scale would make much more sense...it would remove the flying pay argument and moreover it would then contribute towards our pension!
I personally just cannot understand the quibbles of a small minority of ground crew - at the end of the day the option is there for them to take a commision or NCA option. The majority of the ground crew do a fantastic job and do not complain or bicker about aircrew flying pay! Those who do moan should get off their ass and do something about it as they are clearly unhappy in their present positions.:D

[Time Flies]

This is such a boring topic for discussion.

The (sensible) posts above clearly explain the reasons behind flying pay and the main difference between why it is issued today compared with during the 1940's.

If the moaning blunties are so stupid that they can't see (and accept) these reasons then I suggest they simply pack up their username and password and leave this forum.

Is it so hard to understand that a pilot is more sought after (and highly paid) in civvy street than an admin'er or supply officer?

If anyone disagrees....dry your eyes :{

.....and leave the forum please!

[buoy15]

Ratty1, Tonks and others
You guys should not be on this thread iunless you are taking your medication or being supervised
Please go and re-read your TOR's for Spined and Spineless aircrew
Prior to the new system, FP (additional pay) was taxed but never pensionable
This was a big anomaly which, for more than 30 years after it came to light, the Treasury (Inland Revenue) fought and avoided
A number of people challenged this over recent years. Some got out of court settlements, but only after employing clever QC's - most got letters telling them to wind their necks in or else!
The present, and fairer system, groups up basic and additional pay (FP) which is both taxable and pensionable
It may not appear on your pay statement as FP but you are much better off in the long run - ie, a better pension
On my reckoning, just going back the 7 years the IR allows, the pensionable element of my past FP (£868 per month) would have been quite a few quid - multiply that by umpty thousand - no wonder they fought it!
Please stop moaning and enjoy:)

[ratty1]

Please stop moaning and enjoy:)

Who is moaning? PAS!!!!! its bl**dy great:ok:

[LFFC]

Prior to the new system, FP (additional pay) was taxed but never pensionable
This was a big anomaly which, for more than 30 years after it came to light, the Treasury (Inland Revenue) fought and avoided
Yes, it was taxed, but it was always pensionable - the government just chose not to make pension contributions for us! However, you could always do it yourself by way of making pension AVCs on your flying pay.

The difference with the PAS is that the government have now chosen to make all of our pay pensionable - and even backdate it if you have joined the AFPS05! :O

However, I'm not sure how the tax man will view my AVC stash now that I'll be getting about the maximum pension as well! Anyone know the answer?

[Danny_Boy]

[quote=Ken Scott]LJR

I also think that other branches, such as Engineers who all have to be graduates, should be paid different rates, similar to the branch system for other ranks.

Ken,

My understanding was that all officers got the same rates due to the 'Officer first, specialist second' approach. Naturally excluding medics, dentists and chaplains - the other 'specialist branch [legal] does not attract enhanced rates. Those 4 branches could be described as 'specialists first, officers second' - hence the SERE cse rather than IOT.

The branch system for other ranks no longer exists. My understanding from when it did exist was that it a) allowed the officers to make meaningful pay increases throughout their second career rather than getting stuck on the top whack early on and b) recognised the skill sets that they had which newly promoted Flt Lt's who had been in 20 years less than them wouldn't have.

Back to flying pay: I can understand the arguments against it (I am not a pilot btw) but to all who argue for it being stopped for ground appointments I would like to point out that it goes down after each promotion, and even after certain amounts of time within the rank at Gp Capt and Air Cdre level (stops altogether at 2*). Surely this must be (at least in part) in recognition that there are less air-based appointments, whilst still acting as a retention incentive?

I await the incoming flak...

[Tonkenna]

Who is moaning? PAS!!!!! its bl**dy great:ok:

Couldn' agree more ratty:ok:

Boy15... think you missed my point somewhat... what I don't understand is those who don't get the point of flying pay. They need to either get over the fact that they don't get it, or work a bug ger site harder and go through the training to get it... if they are good enough.

Can't believe this thread is still going

[FEWNCOP]

Couldn't agree more. What is this thread hoping to achieve. Isn't it blatently obvious that if we as war fighters earnt the same cash as OC PSF, we'd bail to BA ASAP.

No, hang on, my mistake - we're all war fighters first!!!

Doh!!

Mr Branson, Heeeeeeeellllpppppp.