Aerobatics in Yorkshire

[markflyer6580]

Hi all.
I'm currently hour building whilst doing my ATPL's,to keep myself amused I have decided to do some aeros. I currently fly at humberside but the only aerobatic a/c there is a 150 aerobat:yuk:

I have looked at Full sutton and Sherburn-both nice spots and very freindly,so it pretty much boils down to aircraft. Full sutton have a Firefly,Sherburn have a Cap 10 for slightly less and a robin 2160 for a lot less,since its not going to be a lot of hours the cost difference doesn't matter,my main concern is the tailwheel conversion if I went for the Cap 10.

I have about 80hrs tt+night rating,and fancy a change! Any advice or suggestions welcome :ok:

[eharding]

Go for the Cap10, and do a tail-wheel conversion anyway. Never flown a Robin, the Firefly has a fairly sedate roll-rate, and the Cap is a lovely bit of kit. Presumably if you're flying with an instructor anyway, then the tail-wheel aspect isn't an issue. If you're not flying with an instructor, and you don't have aerobatic experience, then you should be.

[stiknruda]

I agree with everything that Ed has said - however, the aerobatic instruction at Full Sutton is world class.

Castle Smith has represented the UK at advanced aerobatics on several occasions. He might even be persuaded to roll out his Pitts S2B and show you how life really ought to look.:ok:

Have fun wherever you choose,

Stik

[Rod1]

Try Bagby. Tom Casells is ex British Aerobatic champion and is very very good. Castle Smith is a very nice chap, but competes one level below Tom. Some years since I flew with both so Tom may not still be in the game.

Rod1

[markflyer6580]

Thanks chaps,Cas Smith definatley seemed to know his stuff,and yes Stik I saw the pitts in the hangar-very nice he did mention going up in that!

I hadn't considered Bagby as its a bit of a trek,but I will look in to it-its a nice drive up there from mine.

Cheers Mark:ok:

[stiknruda]

As "personable" as TC is, I still think that Cas would be a better ab-initio aeros instructor!


Stik

[Zulu Alpha]

I would agre with Stik. Cas will give you a good grounding and also has a Pitts that he takes to most aerobatic competitions for his students to enter in. This means you have a route after the AOPA course into starting competing if you want.
I think you will enjoy the CAP10 most out of the three aircraft you mention. It is the most capable. In the air the tailwheel won't make any difference to the aerobatics, just the landing so you will be getting some tailwheel experience at the end of each lesson 'for free' so to speak.

[NinjaBill]

Another Vote for Cas at Full Sutton, top bloke, and an excellent instructor.

[Speed Twelve]

If you fancy a bit of a trek down to Sheffield, Yorkshire Vintage Flying School have an ex-DEFTS FireflyM160. Chap called Mike Rowe can fly with you at weekends, very experienced current mil QFI. Agree that the Firefly roll-rate isn't the greatest but it is a hoot to fly. They have a Chipmunk T10 as well if you fancy something a little more sedate but still great fun.

[markflyer6580]

The first aeros I did were in a chipmunk! Fantastic,if my numbers came up tonight I would buy one tomorrow. Will look in to that,however all the chipmunks seem to be knocking on for £200/h:eek:

I think Cas smith seems the best choice,unfortunately his firefly is away having its annual,so I will have to wait:{

Thanks again. Mark:ok:

Edit to add-I just looked at the chippie and its only an extra £6/h and about 20 min extra drive-decisions,decisions???

[stiknruda]

I'm afraid to say that because of its superior control harmonisation the dH comes first - every time!

[markflyer6580]

Thought so! I'm a sucker for old aeroplanes anyway:ok:

[Lord Flashheart]

Last time i checked the Chipmunk and the Firefly were around £150 per hour at Yorkshire Flight Training in Sheffield City.

Top school with excellent instructors, definantly give them a call.

[javelin]

Aaarhhh, The Chipmunk, you can't polish a turd :ok:

Personally, I would go with the British Champion - Mr Cassells.

[RVR800]

Full Sutton has an ex-DEFTS Firefly M160 as well

[HappyJack260]

Well, if you want REAL value for money you could try a Pitts S-2C for around 160 ponds an hour, dual or solo!
The only snag is that you'd also have to take a holiday in Sydney, Australia, at the same time. But you'd probably save enough against the cost of doing the course in the UK to pay for the flight, get a more advanced aircraft into the bargain and get a holiday in the sun.

The aircraft's based at Camden - less than an hour outside Sydney - have a look at this link:www.airborne-aviation.com.au

BTW - the Pitts is absolutely bloody fantastic; much as I love the old Chippy (60 odd hours on them) and the Robin's not bad either, the Pitts blows them all into the weeds.

So where the bloody hell are you???

[waldopepper42]

HappyJack260,

Now, where do I get those immigration forms from...!

I flew the S2-C in Florida afew years ago with a guy called Bruce Thalheimer, and it sure is a superb aeroplane. Not very many available for rental here in the UK though :{

[djpil]

Jack - do you let guys fly the S-2C with nil tailwheel experience?

Taking it to Parkes this weekend?

[HappyJack260]

Jack - do you let guys fly the S-2C with nil tailwheel experience?

David,
They can fly it (ie in the air) but the landings and take-offs tend to be done by the instructors. Having said which there are a couple of private pilots who are now checked out in it for solo private hire (incl the President of the local gliding club!).
I'm not sure whether we'd market it for a tailwheel conversion, though I know Phil Unicomb does that with his. And the insurance specifies minimum PPL & 200 hours with 10 hours on type + 25 hours tailwheel. But if someone with no tailwheel experience wants to fly aeros - no problem - and if they want to go for their tailwheel rating then Peter would probably give them a few hours in the back seat of the Chipmunk or Citabria to help them along the way.
Taking it to Parkes this weekend?
A couple of us may go up for the day to watch but I've simply not had enough time for practice to have a go at my first competition. We may have a look at the State comp in October, though.
Are you coming up to Parkes in the Decathlon?

[HappyJack260]

HappyJack260,
Now, where do I get those immigration forms from...!
I flew the S2-C in Florida afew years ago with a guy called Bruce Thalheimer, and it sure is a superb aeroplane. Not very many available for rental here in the UK though :{
Are there any Pitts S-2C's in the UK at all? I know of three in Oz, of which I think all are available for hire.
No need for immigration - just get a temporary business visa and you can come and go for a maximum of 3 months in the country at any time - no minimum stay overseas before returning. Always assuming you have business interests. Like serious flying business;)

[stiknruda]

S2C's in the UK?

HJ - I know of two both G reg, with a third N reg coming home soon after a short stay in sangria-land.

Stik

[MikeeB]

Who teaches aero's at Sherburn now? I started down the route of the Cap 10B, but nobody could teach me aero's in it. Never entertained the idea of trying in the Robins, so I went to FS in the end.

Stopped altogether now as I'm in a catch22 situation. Pay rental rates and fly, or stop flying and save up for a share/plane. Just be doing the minimum hours with an instructor now to retain my licence.

[HappyJack260]

Who teaches aero's at Sherburn now? I started down the route of the Cap 10B, but nobody could teach me aero's in it. Never entertained the idea of trying in the Robins, so I went to FS in the end.
Stopped altogether now as I'm in a catch22 situation. Pay rental rates and fly, or stop flying and save up for a share/plane. Just be doing the minimum hours with an instructor now to retain my licence.

The Robin's actually not such a bad aeroplane to learn in - good visiibility throught the canopy, controls well balanced, a little gutless - but then, so are Citabria's - and I think there are manoeuvres you can do in them that are forbidden in the Chippie. I've got about the same hours in each and I'd be happy to jump into either one to take someone for a ride. In car terms, the Robin's a Peugeot 205GTi 1.6; the Chippie is a MGA Twincam. The Chippie gives a greater sense of occassion, though.

The pay-off between renting and buying depends on the number of hours you do each year. Typically, that's probably around 150-200 hours for a given type, so for an individual within a syndicate that's probably 35-50 hours. It'd be worth getting a spreadsheet together to calculate the relative merits of each approach. Even if you have to borrow the money for the syndicate share (at, say 7% of 5000 pounds, that's about 2 hours flying a year) it may be cheaper to do so and get into the syndicate rather than keep renting.

OTOH, if you are only doing 12-15 hours a year, buying in less likely to make sense. In which case look at taking a holiday in the US, Australia or NZ and flying a few hours for something much better, for less money....

[meditek]

Managed to get my hands on a Pitts S2C at Stewart Airshow in Florida a couple of years ago. I hadn't flown for about 28 years but did have around 40 hours on the old S2 and when I saw this Pitts taking 15 min flights for $120 I couldn't resist the temptation. I told the guy I hadn't flown for 28 years but had Pitts experience.Anyway, when we're mounted up he says 'You have control' and it remained that way until climb out when I expressed surprise at his confidence considering I hadn't flown for 28 years. 'I thought you said you'd been flying them FOR 28 years!' says the guy.

The old Pitts S2 stick had a slightly 'rubbery' feel like the old Lotus Elans. The C felt marvellous. Great prop and ailerons. 8 point rolls were a doddle. Instant recovery from accidental inverted spin. Time flew by. Suddenly felt extremely ill about three quarters of the way round a rolling circle so handed back control and let the guy take it home. Result was 40 mins S2C time for $120. Turns out the guy was a Pitts salesman - said I could have one for $325,000. Rather disappointed when I declined.

I suppose this just goes to show that old skills aren't forgotten. I actually think I flew better than I used to thanks to thousands of hours of computer flying with a full set of controls.

Who was 'the guy'? I forget the name but I think it was Mike someone. I've a photo of him (in the cap).
if anyone recognises him please post.

http://homepages.nildram.co.uk/~meditek2/3rd.jpg

[HappyJack260]

Managed to get my hands on a Pitts S2C at Stewart Airshow in Florida a couple of years ago. The old Pitts S2 stick had a slightly 'rubbery' feel like the old Lotus Elans. The C felt marvellous. Great prop and ailerons. 8 point rolls were a doddle. Instant recovery from accidental inverted spin. Time flew by.

Funny you should mention the Elan and the Pitts togther...I used to have a 1973 Lotus Elan Sprint, until rolling it and turning it into shredded wheat! The Pitts certainly has a similar roll rate to the one I experienced in the Elan that day, but at least in the Pitts the rolls are endlessly repeatable....:D

The Elan as I remember it had very crisp controls - gear change like a rifle bolt, steering that worked through telepathy - but the doughnuts in the half-shafts did have a bit of a rubbery feel which meant that acceleration from slow speed was a bit of a "kangaroo petrol" sensation.

Marriage and fatherhood means that my Lotus Elan days are fond memories only, but I'm lucky enough to fly and own an S-2C - which is every bit as good as you describe. Slow rolls (and therefore point rolls) are a lot easier when you have the control authority and harmonisation and the power that the Pitts offers. And it's marvellous being able to fly a sequence without worrying about height loss.. the more usual problem is busting out the top of the 4500' airspace ceiling when doing aeros above the field at 3000'...

Why did you give up flying for so long? I had a 13 year lapse until a friend took me up in his Sukhoi-29 from White Waltham, 10 years ago - then I knew I just had to get my licence back. And it's not as expensive as I remember - at least, her in Australia, it's not. Of course it's probably a bit more pricey oop north than it is here - you should come and try getting your hand in again.

Anyway, I'm glad to hear you liked the Pitts. Oh, and I can sell you a new S-2C for a bit over US$210k, or a used one for less than $160k, so I'm not surprised you turned him down, at that price. But let me know if you want another test flight - and I can probably arrange the licence requalification as part of the deal....!

[meditek]

Thanks for the kind offer but Aussieland is quite a long hop for this codger and, besides, much as I enjoyed getting my hand back in, I'll stick to safer territory. I do, however, envy all Pitts owners! If I had one there is no way I'd let anyone else loose in it. Group ownership gives me nightmares. Ever noticed how a member stops flying for a week or two if he thinks he's overstressed it!!!

I bought an Elan+2 kit when it first came out ('67-68??) . Kept blowing valves every 500 miles. Lotus couldn't sort it so I sold it at a profit. Handling was very precise 'cept when a wheel dropped off but it did have a cushioned rubber feel.

Far as flying is concerned, I packed in after an engine failure followed by someone brushing my canopy with a wheel on my 'get back up there and restore the nerve' flight (Chipmunk). In addition to which, most of the people who instructed me seemed to be getting killed (Neil Williams, Manx Kelly, Jane Whyham, Mike Terley). I thought, maybe, someone was trying to tell me something - third time 'lucky' eh! Later Marcus Edwards went followed by Pete Clark.

[HappyJack260]

Yes, engine failures do tend to focus the mind. I had one in a Marchetti SF260 in 2000 and broke my back in the wheels up landing out of a low level turn. I was lying in the hospital after the subsequent operation to implant a meccano set's worth of titanium scaffolding when I saw some clips of the Reno air races. The nurse was going to switch it off to spare my feelings but I couldn't wait to get back up in the air. It took me 9 months to achieve it and I was a little nervous on the first few flights.

Also had another (partial) engine failure (in a Chippie) - one magneto started rotating in its mount like a hand whisk, leaving the engine very low on power and running like a cement mixer - but fortunately this was in the circuit just after pulling off power on downwind and I managed to roll it on with just enough power to taxi clear.

I still am a little nervous 5 years on, though it's now more like the nervousness one has getting ready to give a speech - and really only before start-up and take-off. But it helps makes me stay alert, especially in the circuit, and especially in the Pitts, where the challenge is when the newbies are doing low-level, slow, 5 mile downwinds and I'm doing 2m:15s circuits, staying fastish, highish and close-in and pretty much blind ahead. Certainly helps keep you focused...

I had my Elan for 2 years 1983-85. Probably the most fun car I've ever owned, though not the fastest relative to its peers - which honour probably lies with the Lotus Sunbeam I used to take out at Castle Combe on De Tomaso Drivers Club track days. I once held off a Ferrari Testarossa for the whole 6 laps, thanks to agility and good acceleration. Bit like the Pitts.
OTOH, with 260hp and 575kg, the Pitts is probably more like the Caterham 7 CSV 260 - same power to weight, very focused, really built for one purpose only. The Lotus Sunbeam had only 210hp but weighed almost a ton and was a bit stadgy by comparison.

Driving in Australia is a bit dull - despite running around in a fairly quick Subaru 3.0RB, I miss a fun car and some English country lanes - but the Pitts helps provide a bit of spice!

[meditek]

Driving in Australia is a bit dull - despite running around in a fairly quick Subaru 3.0RB, I miss a fun car and some English country lanes - but the Pitts helps provide a bit of spice!

Couldn't be duller than here! God knows why anyone buys a fast car these days. Last one I bought was a Porsche Carrera in 1982. Sold it after 3 months due to total frustration with traffic congestion, police and jealous characters spoiling the paint! Now I cruise around in comfort in my 540i Auto Bimmer. Big change from the late 50's and early 60's when we used to race 3 abreast to and from parties etc! Had to watch the dials in those days.

Never driven a Lotus Sunbeam. Had a Lotus Cortina for a short period but got fed up up with cracked rear axle casings. Did have a Sunbeam version of the Hillman Imp for a short period though. No weight on the front so braking on non-perfect surfaces was dodgy which resulted in it's elimination.

[Jinkster]

If you drop me a PM with your telephone number I can get your prices for the Slingsby at Sheffield City Airport, just off the M1 at Junction 33.

Jinkster ;)

[Them thar hills]

Mark
Don't blame the poor old C150 Aerobat.
There is a many a good tune played on an old fiddle!
Well maybe thats stretching a point, but people have won aerobatic competitions flying Aerobats before today.
Similarly with Tipsy Nippers. The Nipper expert is Barry Smith, who makes a Nipper look very good. But he could fly a dustbin lid, and make THAT look good.

Full Sutton is where to go and see the Smith.
Even if you you do half as well as he does, you'll still be smiling.

Regarding control harmonisation, start with the Jungmann and work backwards from there for the rest.
Nothing flies better than a Bucker!

TTH

[meditek]

The Aerobat is one tough little plane. One arrived at the field when I was doing my PPL. I asked James 'Ginger' Lacey (dcd), my instructor, if he could show me some aeros in it. He started by half-rolling for a pull through at 5000' and around 100+ knots!! It went down like a brick built s... house. Through tunnel vision I saw VNE left for dead. We levelled out at about 300'. He must really have kept his cool during that dive but he never did any more aeros. We never discussed the episode.

Barry Smith, like Pete Clark, was a natural pilot from the day he first sat in a cockpit. Didn't know he was still active.

PS Them_thar - never flown a Bucker. Is there one in Yorkshire?