Instrument Approach Plates

[Heliplane]

Good afternoon all.

I am trying to put together a set of instrument approach plates to keep on board (a) for practice approaches and (b) for use in the event that I get stuck above low clouds and have to divert to a nearby field with an instrument approach.

Although I would want to be able to use these plates in a real life situation, the extent to which I plan to use them in no way justifies the high cost of subscribing for a Jeppesen or another instrument approach plate service. (I have been spoilt by the US system of paying $3 dollars for a neat book of all the current approach plates for the region).

Although people have offered to copy their Jepp/equivalent plates for me, I do not want to risk a breach of copyright etc.

I have printed plates from www.ais.org.uk on occasion but note the disclaimer stating that "This information is supplied for Pre-flight planning purposes only...". Clearly, the intention is not for these to be used in flight.

Is there a source from which one can download current IFR approach plates that can legally/safely be used whilst flying in an IFR environment?

Also, downloading plates from the ais website is somewhat onerous as each approach has to be downloaded separately. Is there somewhere that all of the information on the AIS site can be dowloaded in one shot, or purchased?

Lastly, (I think this may have been on a previous thread but I couldn't find it) is there a source for IFR approach plates for European airfields (particularly France and Belgium)?

Thanks.

HP

[tmmorris]

Worth having a look at the RAF published charts from no. 1 AIDU (www.aidu.mod.uk). Website is a nightmare but you should be able to get booklets of approach charts updated quarterly for £14 or so each (two are needed to cover England and Wales, for example). They are basically AERAD charts plus some RAF specific ones.

If you actually got all three UK booklets 4 times a year (4 x 3 x 14 = £168) you are at the same price as an AERAD subscription (that must be deliberate), but e.g. I have the two England & Wales ones quarterly which saves me a bit, and I need the RAF charts (I fly from an RAF club) which are not in AERAD.

Tim

[2Donkeys]

The AIP is the official reference source for UK plates. The disclaimer is a clumsy attempt at managing AIS's liability in a culture which is increasingly hamstrung by the perception of legal risk.

Jepp and Aerad base their materials on the AIP plates, so you won't go far wrong by carrying a current print-out of the relevant plates.

French plates are available on the same basis from the French AIS. This can be found at:

http://www.sia.aviation-civile.gouv.fr/

For loads more AIPs and a singularly crappy Java interface, the Eurocontrol Electronic Air Data site is a must:

http://www.ead.eurocontrol.int/eadcms/eadsite/index.php.html

That should do it for you.

2D

[IO540]

With the ripoff Jeppesen pricing policy (having dropped JV2 and Flitemap and screwing everyone into paying for Jeppview 3 / Flitedeck, with extra-ripoff pricing like getting "Europe" but with some central European countries left out from the middle which you have to buy in a separate £400 package) I wouldn't look a gift horse in the mouth if someone offered me free Jepp approach plates :O

The advantage of Jepp is that you get a uniform data format, whereas the free plates mentioned in the above posts are a bit weird in places, are usually not designed to be readable when printed in less than A4 (IMV, they were designed to form pages in the national AIPs, not to be useful in the cockpit, believe it or not) and you can get them only for some countries in Europe.

[Mark 1]

If you don't have a fast internet connection, you can still (I believe) get the AIP sent out on CD - either as a monthly subscription service or on a one-off basis.

I can't see the problem about using them in flight as you have met the requirement of having correct and upto date information. Plenty of people do use them regularly.

[atb1943]

IO540

I think that with comments such as: With the ripoff Jeppesen pricing policy (having dropped JV2 and Flitemap and screwing everyone into paying for Jeppview 3 / Flitedeck, with extra-ripoff pricing like getting "Europe" but with some central European countries left out from the middle which you have to buy in a separate £400 package) I wouldn't look a gift horse in the mouth if someone offered me free Jepp approach plates....

...you are intending someone such as yours truly to rise to the bait. Suffice it to say that there is no coverage with 'countries left out from the middle', unless you are referring to the rumoured EU coverage that would have omitted Switzerland...(that was a joke).

There's also such a thing as software development, and plans for the future (there's a lot going on), so do come along to FLY and chat to the people on the stand. They'll be happy to meet you. I'll be there too, you know who I am.

I too am not authorized to respond officially (referring to another thread about the CAA), but I feel I have to challenge unsubstantiated criticism such as that above.

JeppView is an entirely different ballgame to the traditional paper charts, but was a direct response to customer's not wanting to spend hours revising a manual. It's a different way of managing charts, but at the same time offers colour and moving map-type situational awareness when connected up to your GPS. I know many many people who just LOVE it.

Nothing's perfect, and isn't going to satisfy everyone all the time, so all comments, whether favourable or not, are welcome. You'll find us willing to listen and help. Your satisfaction is our future.

Yours truly,

atb:ok:

[Dude~]

Assuming you only fly Cat A aircraft, try www.gcap.co.uk who do a complete set of UK IFR plates for £49 a year or 50p per download. Looks quite good though I haven't actually used them in anger.

[IO540]

I didn't realise you actually worked for Jepp, atb1943 :O

OK, take the package called "JeppView Europe". You would think "Europe" means Europe, wouldn't you? Actually no, to get most of the rest of "Europe" you also have to buy "JeppView Eastern Europe Special". It comes to best part of £2k. Even that doesn't get you all of "Europe".

I am also right about Jepp's pointless dropping of Flitemap, especially Flitemap IFR. I was just about to buy that product; a good job I didn't. Arguably, the "holy grail" in navigation is to be able to plan a route and then have a moving map display over the same planned route and you have just pulled the only reasonably priced way to do that.

At the same time you also pulled the only way to display VFR charts en route (i.e. as a moving map) using your VFR/GPS chart add-on CD. Having VFR charts in the cockpit, especially as a moving map, is often a good idea even when flying IFR (if, for example, one has to descend due to icing or due to some other problem, perhaps landing at some VFR airfield). All that is left now is the airline-pilot-seat-priced Jeppview IFR product.

I know a number of Flitedeck users who are well cheesed off with that decision.

Jepp think they can do what they like to their customers, because nobody else has the data, and their main customers will always pay the price. Unfortunately they are right.

JV3/Flitedeck is an impressive product, once you have sussed out the various quirks in how to use it. But its USP remains the Jepp data. The software is a hack which nobody could sell with a straight face today, in another market ;)

[englishal]

Why do we have to pay £150+ for the UK Jeppesen IAPs for the UK only, yet in California, which has many more airports, I pay about $25 ?:confused:

[englishal]

In fact, why don't Jeppesen do "Trip Kits" for Europe, just like the USA. There is no point paying for IAPs in mid winter in a non-deiced aeroplane, yet you still have to subscribe.....

[IO540]

Why do we have to pay £150+ for the UK Jeppesen IAPs for the UK only, yet in California, which has many more airports, I pay about $25 ?

Because the FAA approach plates, as well as all the en route charts, are available free of charge for download :O

There are also several products for PDAs and tablet PCs which give you a Flitedeck-style moving map display, using this free data.

It's called a "monopoly" :O

Ably assisted by outfits like the UK CAA who could have done a huge service to UK pilots by releasing their charts free of charge in digital form, enabling the creation of moving map GPS products that display the actual CAA printed chart data, rather than the very sparse (and occassionally wrong - see the Class A airway depictions) Jeppesen data. But no, the CAA prefers to make money out of charts, so they license them out to Memory Map who in turn charge a packet for their PDA product. Which in turn is a dead end since no other European aviation charts are available, because the other European aviation authorities play the same game. So it's back to Jepp making a mint...

There is an open source project called Pocket-FMS but the whole concept isn't really suitable for O/S - the data updating is a continuous process which needs a commercial outfit to run it. But I do think that, for Europe only, one could put together a complete VFR/IFR map database for a fraction of what Jepp charge. Marketing is a big problem - Garmin wouldn't touch such a product...

[High Wing Drifter]

Because the FAA approach plates, as well as all the en route charts, are available free of charge for download
I take it then that the Eurocontol site does not have plates for all relevant Euro airports? It seems pretty comprehensive at a glance. The plates do seem to be of differening layouts. Charts are £7 a pop.

[IO540]

The EAD website has approach plates for some European countries, but there is no en route data.

Also, the EAD approach plates are designed mostly for A4 printing and are not suitable for in-cockpit use, due to very small fonts used in places. They appear to have been designed for inclusion in the national AIPs publications.

If you want something that is usable in A5 size, or displays usefully on an electronic display device, Jepp is the only way for Europe.

IFR charts are cheap enough. It's the VFR charts that are not.

There is a little bit happening e.g. the Eurocontrol Skyview project http://www.eurocontrol.int/ais/skyview2/ but this won't produce VFR charts.

[atb1943]

IO540 and Engishal

Points well taken, and whilst not wanting to air a debate about pricing policies here, I can safely say that at no time has the fact that J has been a world leader entered into the equation. I don't mention the M word because that is just not true, we have had challenges all the way along from various quarters and have kept a watchful eye on what the competition has done. And I believe it is safe to say that if you have competition, you don't have an M...!

Comparing prices here to prices in the USA won't work either even if I knew, Al, just what exactly it is you are comparing. It should perhaps be realised that charts for Europe, Africa, the Middle East/South Asia and Eastern Europe have been produced solely in Germany, and that since 1957, so the whole European socio-political aspect and conditions have played a part in the pricing concept. Add to that the huge number of countries with whose authorities it is necessary to work together to get clarification of what is published officially. Cost of printing, cost of paper, and so on. With the introduction of electronic products and Internet offerings there should be a closing of gaps, but we still have the same type of work to do before the charts appear in whatever medium so don't expect wonders.

I guess you couold compare the situation to that of the cost of flying hours here and in the USA.

IO, with regard to FliteMap, it was discontinued for a couple of reasons. First, because FliteDeck (which was better optimized for inflight use) was introduced. We realize that there currently is a gap in product coverage within the VFR market but this is being addressed with solutions that will appear this year in both hemispheres. Secondly, we wanted to create a service that was technically more compatible with our integration strategy. The FliteMap code was old and somewhat behind the curve in this respect. We will continue to support existing FliteMap users however until upgrade options are available for all market segments.

Hope this helps.

brgds
atb

[AppleMacster]

atb1943: Any sign of Jeppesen Internet Flight Planning (JIFP) being available in Europe?
AppleMacster

[atb1943]

AppleMacster

Sorry,but should have a headsup for you tomorrow evening.

cheers
atb

[IO540]

so the whole European socio-political aspect and conditions have played a part in the pricing concept

You will need to do a whole lot better than that if you want to be the next chief exec of Vodafone, atb1943 :O

Of course you have an effective European monopoly in usable electronic instrument approach plates, and en route IFR flight planning software. The question is whether you abuse it and, if so, to what extent.

The whole situation is underpinned by the fact that every "CAA" is trying to make money out of publishing or otherwise marketing the aviation data. They play straight into your hands.

Some publish approach charts but due to poor design, small text, etc, they are not really usable in the cockpit. Nobody in Europe offers free en route charts, VFR or IFR.

The few people that play around in the VFR en route market (e.g. Memory Map) so such an inept job that they don't count. If the CAA had imagination they would talk to Garmin regarding loading the UK VFR charts onto the popular models. But J already have that customer well stitched up :O

Flitestar VFR stacks up against Navbox Pro; it is considerably more expensive and arguably the extra features are useless to a typical VFR pilot. Where you win is the more detailed charts, but this is moot because for VFR the pilot has to buy the printed charts anyway (I know there is the VFR/GPS chart CD but at the price it will not cause many VFR pilots to abandon printed charts). So, for VFR flight planning, you have effective competitor which IMHO is a better overall product (does all that's needed, costs less and is much less bloated).

Flitestar IFR does some very useful stuff above Navbox Pro (airways planning, etc) and is IMHO fairly priced. But, following your dropping of FliteMap and the reasons you give, and the fact that the IFR flight planning features of Flitestar IFR are already in Jeppview 3, it would not suprise me if you dropped this product too. There is no competition that I am aware of, so all users will be stuffed; the JV3 price is about 4x higher for similar coverage. I know JV3 gives the Flitedeck moving map but this takes seriously expensive tablet-pc hardware to be useful in the cockpit.

Jeppview 3 has no competition, and IMV is priced accordingly. That's why it is so much cheaper in the USA :O

Did I miss anything out?

Talking of FliteMap being dropped partly due to old code, the code in JV is even more of an old hack, with long-term compatibility issues with platforms, printers, etc. JV2 is straight out of win95 days and JV3 is just a clean-up. People buy this product for the very good data. They certainly don't buy it for intuitive usability, and same goes for Flitestar. There is negligible code difference between Flitestar and Flitemap (the code may even be identical, with the GPS input being simply inhibited in Flitestar) so if you dropped the latter why not drop the former? The reason for dropping Flitemap must have been primarily to push customers to JV3, based on the standard old assumption that anybody flying IFR around Europe is an aircraft owner and has loads of money (which is largely correct) and will therefore pay (which isn't correct; JV3 for Europe costs as much as an Annual for a complex SEP, and the typical user already pays a few $100s for the Jepp GPS data in his GPS).

What you need is a range of products to suit different bits of the market. Then very few people would moan.

[Cusco]

Back to Heliplane's original enquiry:
I get the monthly AIC on CDROM and if heliplane would like to PM me his postal address I'll bung last month's CDin the post.
It'll by definition be one month out of date: but Approaches don't change all that frequently..
If you really want to be bang up to date you'll just have to bite the bullet and pay up like others do.
Cheers
Cusco

[atb1943]

IO540

I will probably retire in two to three as my moniker hints so I have no real ambitions:8

I do appreciate your p.o.v. but still think you're running on five with regard to pricing. Anyway, I'll be happy to forward your comments to the proper people.

Thanks for airing them.

atb

[IO540]

Approaches don't change all that frequently

Probably true for en route (after all the CAA is happy with up to 1 year old charts being used) but not really good enough for approaches.

[windy1]

Getting back to the first posters problem- 2 points:
1 For IMC rated pilots flying approaches in UK, the cut-down Jepps is over engineered because a lot of the pages cover Heathrow, Gatters, Luton etc which said pilots are not going to fly into because of the costs and for heathrow, ratings. I got fed up with swopping monthly updated sheets because the gps coordinates of stand Hxxx at Heathrow had changed by 3 feet. I suggested to Jepp they could price that product more attractively by dropping those airports. Any suitably qualified pilot rich enough and patient enough to accept the offered slots at Heathrow could always buy those charts as a trip kit
2 That brings me to the second point which is not so much about getting the charts at a reasonable cost, but about ensuring the charts are always up to date. I suspect the update service is inherently quite expensive.
Maybe I just destroyed the logic of point 1!

[atb1943]

AppleMacster

JIFP should be ready by the end of April, latest mid-May. There are certain internal structures that need to be completed but they are being worked on.

Windy 1

I recall our correspondence where you suggested the deletion of large airports from the TUK04. Originally created to meet a requirement as an IMC coverage it has outgrown that now and is used by trainees, ferry pilots, flight simmers, exec jets, heli operators and so on. I put the content together at the time and the biggies did not play a great part in the pricing because we had to be competetive with what was already long since on the market. We also prefer to continue our policy of having complete coverages - explaining exclusions is always going to be more costly than retaining the airports in question.

Do appreciate your concern however.

brgds

atb

[IO540]

As a user of the Jepp UK IFR guide I am happy with it, and the pricing was (as I recall) below Aerad's offering.

The added bonus over Aerad is that Aerad's comes in two binders which is a pain to carry so, when I was flying under the IMCR only, I pulled out the STARs/SIDs and managed to get the lot into one binder.

I do not think that making the plates more brief (as one firm has attempted for a UK-only kit) is worth doing. An instrument qualified pilot should be able to read and fly any plate you stick under his nose.

The problem comes when you want to go into Europe. The printed version is an absolute joke - heavy enough to affect your W&B, and the time spent on the monthly updating is even more of a joke. Just like the Bottlang VFR guides, which have no excuse to not be on a CD. Paradoxically, commercial users will be less bothered by this because most of them - a notable exception being bizjet pilots - fly the same routes all the time, so they pull out the stuff they need. Private IR pilots have to go "electronic" (printing off the plates at home, or with a portable printer off a laptop) but they can't be expected to spend the equivalent of an Annual on this stuff.

Eventually Jepp will get squeezed by the free Eurocontrol plates, which are OK for occassional use and their coverage is improving all the time. This is a shame because Jepp have a much more usable product, and the only product that's readable on a 800x600 tablet pc product. Unfortunately, if they get pushed into serving the airline market only, their prices will never come down.

This will open up the European market for a new entrant - it doesn't take a PhD to work that out!

[Kyprianos Biris]

In fact, why don't Jeppesen do "Trip Kits" for Europe, just like the USA. There is no point paying for IAPs in mid winter in a non-deiced aeroplane, yet you still have to subscribe.....

Yes they do (in paper) unless something changed since last year when I bought one.