Twin time in US

[mrwilko]

Hi. I'm planning on going to the US next month to build twin IR hours. Any advice on schools, etc. ? Thanks.

[AndyDRHuddleston]

on this topic, I'd also like to ask if it is possible to rent a multi with a JAA M/E rating???

....sounds like a silly question, but I have done alot of flying in the states, and this included a JAA M/E rating, and for the test I can log p1S, so surely somewhere along the lines I am allowed to fly an N registered multi as PIC??

Any advice or slants on this?

Thanks

Andy

[LAX]

Try - Air Desert Pacific - based at Bracket airport (Pomona) just north of LA.

Rates are good (Seneca and seminole) . Climate good. Lots of great places to fly into. Aircraft Maintenance is also good.

They can arrange accomodation close by and collection on arrival.

[boogie-nicey]

I agree go to Air Desert Pacific at Brackett field just east of LA. They used to have a convienent motel arrangement which more than exceeds the minimums and was only $50 a night (though I realise the prices must have changed by now).

Any ADP was a straight forward school that just gets on with the flying and are very flexible and fair. No OAT style marketing spin or silliness here, they know what they're doign and have reasonable prices coupled with good maintenance support for all their aircraft. Only point to keep in mind is that they're quite popular and therefore a little busy but they always try and fit you in somehow and somewhere.

PM if you need some more info.

[razzele]

have you had a look at ...

www.aribenaviator.com

:ok:

razzele

[pilgrim flyer]

ADP aircraft 'functional' rather than beautiful, though I was there in 2000/2001, may be different now.

I had great instruction thro FAA CPL/Multi/IR and would concur with opinions expressed above.

However they won't (or wouldn't then) hire out multis to non MEI's without a safety pilot so you might want to check out the current situation.

PF

[jimbo jet set]

You definatley need to look at www.sunstateaviation.com . They have an excellent fleet of very nice aircraft at very reasonable prices. They also have a preferencial arrangement with the local Super 8 motel on US192 so theres plenty to do outside of flying!!

They've got excellent instructors also. I've flown with them for on three occaisions and have logged about sixty hours on their wonderful 172's.

Jim

p.s I'm in no way affiliated with them- just a satisfied customer.

[hixton]

ADP are not at Brackett any more

[commpilot76]

Check out Ari Ben Aviator located in Fort Pierce Florida. They have a really good 100 hour time building program with really dicent prices. also if you are looking for P1 time I have heard that they also provide that as well check out their website www.aribenaviator.com (http://www.aribenaviator.com) and look at the time building section. Excellent school. Really enjoyed my tour there.

[bfato]

Be aware though that Ariben naturally use the FAA definition of P1 time, which with an instructor in the RHS would have to be P/ut in your JAA logbook. They also count safety pilot time in their quotes, which can't be logged at all under JAA rules. Still worth a look, but you may have to halve the time you'll get from that quoted.

[Whopity]

"to build twin IR hours"

But that will require a FAA IR,or validation of a UK IR! in order to fly IFR. If you have either, what on earth do you need to build IR hours for?

[pilgrim flyer]

"to build twin IR hours"

But that will require a FAA IR,or validation of a UK IR! in order to fly IFR. If you have either, what on earth do you need to build IR hours for?

To become a multi engine instructor perhaps?

PF

[bfato]

what on earth do you need to build IR hours for?

To become eligible for single pilot taxi ops?

[potkettleblack]

Be aware though that Ariben naturally use the FAA definition of P1 time, which with an instructor in the RHS would have to be P/ut in your JAA logbook. They also count safety pilot time in their quotes, which can't be logged at all under JAA rules. Still worth a look, but you may have to halve the time you'll get from that quoted.

Not sure that the above is strictly correct. If you are receiving training from an instructor then you would log p/ut. If you were the sole manipulator of the controls then you would log P1 (irrespective of whether an instructor came along for a jolly in the RHS to cream some of your hours under FAA). If you were sitting in the RHS acting as safety pilot for another hour builder under the hood then under JAA you log nothing. Hence why you need to halve the hours on the Ariben packages and see if the rates are competitive.

[bfato]

Not sure that the above is strictly correct. If you are receiving training from an instructor then you would log p/ut. If you were the sole manipulator of the controls then you would log P1 (irrespective of whether an instructor came along for a jolly in the RHS to cream some of your hours under FAA). If you were sitting in the RHS acting as safety pilot for another hour builder under the hood then under JAA you log nothing. Hence why you need to halve the hours on the Ariben packages and see if the rates are competitive.
I am told that, under FAA rules, a ppl accompanied by an instructor can log P1 if he holds a licence for the class of airplane (sic) and is occupying the left hand seat. We would call that P/UT, unless the instructor is acting as a passenger and not in command of, nor logging, the flight.

When not with an instructor, IFR hour building out there is conducted in pairs with you taking it in turns to act as safety pilot. Under FAA regs, the safety pilot can log P2, under our rules he can't. This P2 time is included in Ariben's 100hrs. So 100 FAA hrs is actually 50hrs P1 and 50 hrs safety pilot, or 50 JAA hours.

[potkettleblack]

I am told that, under FAA rules, a ppl accompanied by an instructor can log P1 if he holds a licence for the class of airplane (sic) and is occupying the left hand seat. We would call that P/UT, unless the instructor is acting as a passenger and not in command of, nor logging, the flight.

If the instructor is in the RHS to go for a jolly and get his hours up under the FAA system and does not in anyway instruct you then you would log P1 under JAA and he would log whatever they do in the US. I did 100 hours out in the US and became Mr Popularity as FAA instructors with time on their hands would want to come for a ride and enjoy a nice sleep whilst logging hours. Nice work if you can get it!

[bfato]

If the instructor is in the RHS to go for a jolly and get his hours up under the FAA system and does not in anyway instruct you then you would log P1 under JAA and he would log whatever they do in the US. I did 100 hours out in the US and became Mr Popularity as FAA instructors with time on their hands would want to come for a ride and enjoy a nice sleep whilst logging hours. Nice work if you can get it!

I see your point. But if you fly with an instuctor, and you know he's going to log P1, then surely you can't log P1 under our rules. Only one of you can be ultimately responsible for the flight. If you'd busted a TRA, which one of you would have wound up in court?

[potkettleblack]

The way I see it is that its really not much different to when two pilots go for a fly together. You need to brief beforehand on who is in control, and if you plan on swapping mid flight or at the completion of a sector then work out the semantics of it on the ground before you go. With an FAA instructor on board its not a lot different. They were under no illusion that I was logging P1 for JAA cos at the end of the day I wouldn't be hour building if I wasn't getting P1 time. If you brief who is in control and make this clear enough before you go then it is their issue to explain to Mr FAA how they gave some instruction to a JAA qualified PPL/IMC licence holder. I never checked their logbooks nor couldn't give a toss if they logged the time. I would hazard a guess that some would have thrown in a few hours here and there and others would have just enjoyed getting to a nice place for lunch and seeing the back of the FTO for a few hours.

As for busting airspace or heaven forbid crashing well fortunately I am here to tell the tale but I would hazard a guess that the lawyers will find me culpable. Afterall who did the planning, got the weather, put fuel in the plane, spoke to ATC, flew the plane and would have busted the airspace. The FAA instructor would argue till he was blue in the face that he didn't instruct me as he never would have shown any interest in any of the stuff I just mentioned. Like I say it was purely a taxi service. I wouldn't even know where to start with the FAR's nor wish to learn.

I can see that it can be construed as a bit of a grey area but there is enough evidence for me to sleep easy knowing all my P1 hours are valid.

[bfato]

It's a stupid point really, don't worry about it. What it comes down to is I don't understand how the FAA can have a system of two people logging PIC for the same flight. Only one of you can be the commander, captain, bossman, head honcho, whatever. It's not about who does the planning or handling but who was in charge, who the buck stops with. By the sounds of it you agreed before the flight that it was you, so you're justified in logging PIC. Why their system allows him to also claim credit is beyond me.

[commpilot76]

I just Called Ari Ben Aviator and found out hey have a new program for the JAA guys comming to the US for hour building it is called All P1 time. I would highly recommend giving them a call and talking with Mike or Mary or Josh about it, sounds like a Great deal.

[bfato]

At the risk of labouring a point, 'All P1' by JAA or FAA rules?

[potkettleblack]

I just Called Ari Ben Aviator and found out hey have a new program for the JAA guys comming to the US for hour building it is called All P1 time. I would highly recommend giving them a call and talking with Mike or Mary or Josh about it, sounds like a Great deal.

Couldn't see anything about the new JAA deal on their website so be interesting to hear about it. At it stands at the moment and if my maths is correct for 45 hours P1 under JAA you pay 6,995 plus 1,000 fuel surcharge plus 300 checkride fee. That gives a total of 8,295USD or 184USD per hour. I am not sure how competitive that is out stateside although a check of Air Desert Pacific shows it to be slightly higher than what they advertise.

[Lower the Nose!]

[QUOTE=bfato]It's a stupid point really, don't worry about it. What it comes down to is I don't understand how the FAA can have a system of two people logging PIC for the same flight. Only one of you can be the commander, captain, bossman, head honcho, whatever. It's not about who does the planning or handling but who was in charge, who the buck stops with. QUOTE]

The answer is that in FAA-land they distinguish between PIC in the legal sense (ie responsible for airspace busts, evacuations of the White House, payments to orphans etc) and PIC time which is logged under the FARs. There is only one legally responsible PIC, but in the case of a CFI flying right seat with a certificated pilot they will argue that

- they are providing dual training, loggable for them as PIC, even though the other guy is actually the sole manipulator of the control, and

- they are not legally PIC - that's the left seat guy who rented the plane

I'd be willing the bet all the CFIs who flew for free on potkettleblack's dime will have logged every minute. But he would have been legally PIC if anything went wrong. There is no P1 or P2 under the FARs, only PIC.

[commpilot76]

Ok, I just got off the phone with a WONDERFULL lady named Mary, She just gave me a break down of the P1 program and informed me that they have not updated their website with the new information. for the 100 hour P1 program I will be the soul manipulator of the controlls and NOT safety pilot Under FAA rules a safety pilot can log pic but Under JAA you can not. So they quoted me a price for the 100 hours $10,912.19 and if i decided to only do 50 hours it was $5,854.48 so i think your math may have been a bit off or someone quoated you the wrong price.

So if i were you i would call them

[bfato]

I also found http://airamericafc.com/rental.htm the other day. USD149 wet for a Duchess, with reasonable experience requirements. Can't find anything else on them though. Anyone heard of them? Their website has them opertaing out of Daytona Beach.

[bfato]

Commpilot, will the occupant of the aircraft be an instructor?

Aviator and other US FTOs have APP schemes were people gain their multi IRs, Commercials and CFI ratings then go on to build hours as saftey pilots. If one of those is alongside you and you're logging for JAR purposes, that's makes you P u/t I'm afraid. You may be the 'sole manipulator of the controls' but PIC is Pilot In Command, not Pilot In Control...

[potkettleblack]

Ok, I just got off the phone with a WONDERFULL lady named Mary, She just gave me a break down of the P1 program and informed me that they have not updated their website with the new information. for the 100 hour P1 program I will be the soul manipulator of the controlls and NOT safety pilot Under FAA rules a safety pilot can log pic but Under JAA you can not. So they quoted me a price for the 100 hours $10,912.19 and if i decided to only do 50 hours it was $5,854.48 so i think your math may have been a bit off or someone quoated you the wrong price.

So if i were you i would call them

Hhmm. Nope on checking I think my maths is right. They charge for FAA land 6,995USD for 100 hours (from their website). Thats 50 hours JAA time if you take out the safety pilot time that we all know about already. But really it is only 45 hours P1 time as in the 100 hours (or 50 if you like under JAA) they want to do 5 hours of check outs. Then add on a fuel surcharge of 10 bucks per hour which is another 1,000USD. Add on another 300 USD for a check ride assuming you don't need any additional ratings with them. Total cost I get is 8,295USD. Divide the 45 hours P1 into 8,295 and hey presto you get 184USD p/hr. Or do 50 if you want total time you can log under JAA and its 165USD p/hr. All subject of course to whether the prices on their website are up to date or not.

Now under this new JAA thingie you say its 10,912.19USD for 100 hours. That is 109USD p/hr. No idea if that includes fuel surcharges or check rides or anything else but it seems way way way off the 165USD that you get when you work through their website. Be interesting to know how the big difference comes about and if we are comparing apples with oranges ie: Your price assumes you spend other cash with them for training or there are other add ons.

Key question for you to ask them. Will there be anyone else in that aircraft with you for the 100 hours?

Remember if it sounds to good to be true then it usually is.

[commpilot76]

Commpilot, will the occupant of the aircraft be an instructor?

Aviator and other US FTOs have APP schemes were people gain their multi IRs, Commercials and CFI ratings then go on to build hours as saftey pilots. If you're logging for JAR purposes, that's makes you P u/t I'm afraid. You may be the 'sole manipulator of the controls' but PIC is Pilot In Command, not Pilot In Control...

Bfato, I understand where you are comming from however what does it matter who that person in the right seat is as long as you fly the entire time in the left and log PIC or Pilot In Command, if the other guy is flying under FAA rules where they can log it as safety pilot in command time.

[potkettleblack]

Bfato, I understand where you are comming from however what does it matter who that person in the right seat is as long as you fly the entire time in the left and log PIC or Pilot In Command, if the other guy is flying under FAA rules where they can log it as safety pilot in command time.

Don't quote me on this as I have no knowledge of the FAR's but I think that safety pilot time is recorded if the other pilot is under the hood flying simulated IMC. This is potentially where the problems can arise for YOU in JAA land flying P1 in the the left hand seat with a hood on. I would check LASORS as see whether you can log P1 whilst under the hood or not. It may be that you won't be under the hood at all although then you come back to the point of how the other bloke can log safety pilot time if he is just sitting there under the FAR's?

Edited to add:- Did a quick search on pprune and it would appear that if you don't have a JAA IR then anytime "under the hood" you CANNOT log P1 as you aren't PIC. So what do you log? Well it depends on who is sitting next to you. If they are a CFI/or JAA FI then I would say p/ut, if another punter like you then I would say they log P1 and you get to log wait for it......NOUGHT!

[bfato]

Bfato, I understand where you are comming from however what does it matter who that person in the right seat is as long as you fly the entire time in the left and log PIC or Pilot In Command, if the other guy is flying under FAA rules where they can log it as safety pilot in command time.

Ah, there is a difference between safety pilot and PIC. If someone is acting as a lookout whilst you are under the hood, then he is your safety pilot and you are in command, it is your flight, you log PIC. Under JAA, your buddy couldn't log anything but under FAA he gets to log 'safety pilot' or P2. No problem there. If, instead, he decides as an instructor he's entitled to log it as 'in Command' then be definition you cannot, and must record P U/T (and only then as he has an instructor rating - if he hadn't you could nothing). There can only ever be ONE person logging IC at any stage of a flight.

Hhmm. Nope on checking I think my maths is right. They charge for FAA land 6,995USD for 100 hours (from their website). Thats 50 hours JAA time if you take out the safety pilot time that we all know about already. But really it is only 45 hours P1 time as in the 100 hours (or 50 if you like under JAA) they want to do 5 hours of check outs. Then add on a fuel surcharge of 10 bucks per hour which is another 1,000USD. Add on another 300 USD for a check ride assuming you don't need any additional ratings with them. Total cost I get is 8,295USD. Divide the 45 hours P1 into 8,295 and hey presto you get 184USD p/hr. Or do 50 if you want total time you can log under JAA and its 165USD p/hr. All subject of course to whether the prices on their website are up to date or not.

Now under this new JAA thingie you say its 10,912.19USD for 100 hours. That is 109USD p/hr. No idea if that includes fuel surcharges or check rides or anything else but it seems way way way off the 165USD that you get when you work through their website. Be interesting to know how the big difference comes about and if we are comparing apples with oranges ie: Your price assumes you spend other cash with them for training or there are other add ons.

Key question for you to ask them. Will there be anyone else in that aircraft with you for the 100 hours?

Remember if it sounds to good to be true then it usually is.

I agree with you entirely, potkettleblack.

Commpilot, I'm not knocking Aviator by the way. I've been considering going there myself and spoke with Mike last week. I'm just pointing out that what they call TT isn't what we can count as TT and their P1 isn't necessarilly what we can count as PIC. If you do the sums potkettleblack has done and decide they're still for you then go. But be aware that there may be other FTOs in the US that compare equally on price when you level the playing field.

[Lower the Nose!]

[QUOTE=bfato]There can only ever be ONE person logging IC at any stage of a flight. QUOTE]


This is not true of FAA regulations (sorry if this is not what you meant). There can only be one PIC for legal purposes, but under certain circumstances both pilots can log PIC time. For example one pilot is under the hood and sole manipulator of the controls, the other is safety pilot. In this instance however the safety pilot would have to accept the legal PIC responsibility in order to log the time.

[bfato]

Thanks, Lower the Nose. FARs may allow it but if we go to the States to build hours towards JAR requirements, or to apply to companies operating under a JAA AOC, we can only claim to have those hours that were logged in accordance with JAR.

This may be why some European pilots holding both JAA and FAA licences end up keeping two log books, one for each set of regulations.

edit - in your example if the legal responsibility is shouldered by the safety pilot than the safety pilot would also be PIC in a JAA logbook, but the handling pilot then becomes either P U/T (pilot under training) or nothing, depending on the safety pilot's qualifications. If you think that's a tough deal, it's nothing compared to our ATPL knowledge exams, caa fees and avgas prices. At least we're spared the Orals!

[henriksch]

As I see it you can log all the hours...

You sit in the left seat, flying the airplane, plan the flight etc, and agree w the other pilot that you have the responsibility... That makes you the PIC (P1).... If he logs safety pilot under FAA in his log book, that will be wrong, since you have not been under the hood... But what he puts in his logbook is not you problem. You are legal....

Bye the way... The 300 usd checkout (5 hours) is dual, and can of course still be logged af dual.

[bfato]

You sit in the left seat, flying the airplane, plan the flight etc, and agree w the other pilot that you have the responsibility... That makes you the PIC (P1).... If he logs safety pilot under FAA in his log book, that will be wrong, since you have not been under the hood... But what he puts in his logbook is not you problem. You are legal....

When 'safety pilot' is ALL the other chap is logging it isn't a problem. When he is an instructor and logging 'In Command' then it is. It's the 'In Command' bit that is key.

You can still hour build with an instructor logging PIC, but only as P/UT.

[henriksch]

But you dont hourbuild w an instructor unless you want to...

There is no "safety pilot" coloum (!) in a FAA logbook, so to log it they need to log it as pic....... They are not logging PIC because they have command of the airplane, but because they are rated in the airplane....

Like if you have a multi private FAA, and do you ME-IR, you log PIC, because you are rated, but the instructor still have all the responsibilities.

[potkettleblack]

But you dont hourbuild w an instructor unless you want to...

This is not always the case. Many schools will require you to take an instructor as part of its insurance requirements to fly a twin. Sometimes its not only for an initial checkride either but until you have hit a predetermined min number of twin hours. Other schools like Ariben go down the safety pilot route.

In anycase the whole point of this thread wasn't to discuss what an FAA pilot can or can't log it was to advise JAA hour builders that they need to tread carefully when going to the US for twin time as invariably they will only be able to log half the time that they pay for. It may well be the case that the "deals" on offer are still competitive but the maths needs to be done in the first place and we don't want some poor punter incorrectly logging time and being pulled up for it at a later date or worse getting his hard earned licence revoked.

[mrwilko]

Thanks guys, as a result of this thread I've decided that Ari-ben is a bit of a risk and have been offered a pretty good private deal I'll probably go for.
Another happy ppruner!