Glider Snatch Launch

[Compass Call]

Saw the last bit of a film this afternoon circa 1945, B/W. At the end the Americans got some of their troops out of the jungle using a C-47 to 'Snatch Launch' a glider!!

The troops boarded said glider which had it's tow line laid out and the (loop)end held up by two poles. The C-47 then flew in with a very large pole & hook arrangement slung from the underside of the fuselage, hooked the loop and flew off into the sunset towing said glider behind it!

According to the credits at the end of the film, this took place in Burma during the battle to liberate Burma from the Japanese.

Does anybody know if this type of glider launch is possible? Or is it just film makers license to make the film more interesting to the audience?

Perhaps some of our Elders on PPRuNe have first hand knowledge of this?:E


CC

[brickhistory]

CC,
Such an operation happened. Both in Burma and for medical evacuations in Europe.
Recommeded reading: "Silent Wings at War," by John Lowden, an excellent accounting of the combat glider program.
The British glider program was is particularly noteworthy and filled with brave folks. Pegasus Bridge being, probably, the most famous exploit.
I did a magazine story on a US glider pilot (Flight Journal, Jan 05). This guy flew a Brit Horsa into D-Day, then Wacos for two other ops. Non-combat flying included the medical evac of wounded via the method you asked about.
Took guts!

(edited to correct book title and add author's name.)

[Tiger_mate]

Just like this:
http://www.yolo.net/~jeaton/waco/c47cg4pu.jpg
Imagine the feel of the controls in both aircraft upon snatch, and I wonder if there were any C47 losses due to it.

[Compass Call]

Tiger_mate,

Spot on!

Just as shown in the film.
Bl**dy dangerous if you ask me - both pilots must have had cast-iron b*lls!!


CC

[Krystal n chips]

Some Tug pilots I can think off still practice this technique today---albeit from ground level !:E

However, I would be interested to learn about what sort of weak link was in place ( if any ) and the projected take off run for the Horsa--which must have been fairly lengthy I assume as it would be a heavy beast to get airborne in a hurry. The loading on the structure must have been decidely high as well at the moment of snatch--all credit to the guys involved though.

[brickhistory]

Don't know that the Horsa did this technique. Much bigger, heavier a/c than the Waco. Also, the Horsa's attachments were on the wings vs the Waco's single point on the top on the nose.

From the glider pilot I interviewed (speaking about a 'normal tow from take-off' in the Waco), you waited until the tow a/c raised his tail wheel off, then eased up above his tail. Not too sharply or you'd dump the tug on his nose. After reaching altitude, you dropped down to about six feet under his tail (meaning six feet under his line of flight, not a literal six feet from his tail). That spot offered the best way to avoid being tossed around from propwash.

[FJJP]

A similar system was developed to extract agents from German occupied territory and later to rescue downed pilots in Korea. Successful, but a bu**er if you were on the receiving end! However, it must have been preferrable to the alternative - captivity in a N Korean/Chinese POW camp...

[airborne_artist]

There's a WW2 C47A (N5831B (http://www.ruudleeuw.com/dc3-n5831b.htm)) which was imported into the UK last year that is still partially equipped for a glider snatch recovery.

Search on Fulton recovery system - developed in the 50s and 60s to recover downed aircrew via a snatch technique.

[RatherBeFlying]

Some boyhood book on the then marvels of technology showed the same technique for air mail pickups from small towns. The outgoing mail pod would be winched in and the incoming mail would be chucked out in a replacement pod.

All done with early '50s tailwheel light a/c.

[WASALOADIE]

Just after the Falklands campaign when Stanley airfield was being resurfaced, RAF Hercs carried out snatch ops for mail etc.

[jumpseater]

I was due to talk to my old school headmaster about his RAF days in WWII, and part of it was to talk about these ops. Unfortunately he passed away before we could meet again to talk about it. RIP D Tilby.

[teeteringhead]

You may find info or further links on the excellent Assault Glider Trust (http://www.assaultgliderproject.org.uk/) website.

There is also a video about Brit Mil gliders called "Silently to War" or something like that, which has footage of (amongst other things) snatch take-offs. The "whiplash" must have been quite something...

[John Farley]

Farnborough August 1950.

RAF air display (not SBAC that was the following month)

Standard combined ops type airfield assault. Waco Hadrian glider lands, troops take up positions. Finger four of Vampires fly very low up R/W 07, pull up and wingover left back down parallel with R/W 25 in long line astern. All four fire a full load of 3inch RP’s into the objective near the copse on the N side of 25. I can see the smoke and flames and hear the roar from them even now. They must have done some good though because the troops ran to the target and then returned, got back in their glider, which was then snatched back into the air by a passing DC3.

Five years earlier of course people only worried about whose side any aeroplanes belonged to, not what they were doing.

It is interesting to see how today people think such events were hairy - or even the product of an over excited film producers imagination. Shows how the world has changed.

Control forces of course are caused by airspeed and are not affected by a yank on the nose or tail by a rope.

[jabberwok]

A similar system was developed to extract agents from German occupied territory and later to rescue downed pilots in Korea.

Devised by a doctor at Farnborough who's name I regretfully forget. There is footage somewhere showing him being yanked skyward by a passing Lysander. Early war years I think.

In the 1970's I recall seeing a C130 with a huge pair of "scissors" on the nose - and being told this was for aerial recovery of personnel.

Vague comments I know but so is my memory these days.

[Tiger_mate]

The Rescue herc was used quit a lot, also for missile/drone recovery.
http://www.aeroengineer.net/history/lockheed/images/lockheed6.gif
UK had its own proposals like wing mounted pods for carrying Special Forces attached to Harrier wings! 1 pod = 1 man

[virgo]

I've got a 1949 (amended up to 1952) copy of AP 129, Royal Air Force Pilots Flying Manual which describes (with illustrations) the Glider Pick-up recovery System.
I can get the pages scanned into a folder. If someone can tell me in very simple terms how to get them onto here I'll cheerfully have a go at doing it.

(There's also some good stuff on glider and target towing, how to fly in formation and accomplishment of carrier deck landings.
At the back of the book are 50 odd photos of RAF aircraft, current or just coming into service)

[JDK]

Devised by a doctor at Farnborough who's name I regretfully forget. There is footage somewhere showing him being yanked skyward by a passing Lysander. Early war years I think.
If you have more info I'd be very keen to see that, having just completed a book on the Lysander, and not come across this before.

As a non-scientist and non-pilot, the critical bit seems to be to be how much elasticity in the tow-rope section. Too much and you could whang the glider up the tug's rear, or oscillate across the sky like a caterpillar's 'inching along' manoeuvre! Too little elasticity and any jerk would potentially snap the rope/hook.

I'm sure the physics I'm proposing is more 'Catch the Pigeon' than real world...

[jabberwok]

It might be in one of two sources that I recall.
'Farnborough - The Story of the RAE'
by Turhill & Reed
Published by ?, 1980 ISBN: ?
or
'Early Aviation At Farnborough: The History Of The Royal Aircraft Establishment' by Percy Brooksbank Walker
Published by ?, 1996 ISBN: 0 35603 520 4
The doctor's name may have been Haycock or Laycock..

[teeteringhead]

Didn't the Herc also snatch 007 and some floozie out of a dinghy in one of the films, after he's let off a balloon with the cable attached......?

[treadigraph]

Teeteringhead, 007 + certainly recovered that way in one of the Connery films (Thunderball?) - but was it a B-17 rather than a Herc? (Just when you want a Bond season, suddenly there isn't one!)

Remember watching an HC-130 demonstrating the system at Miildenhall - 1979? They also dropped a Ford Anglia several thousand feet from a HH-53!

[Conan the Librarian]

Jabberwok, think it may have been a Dr. Winfield you are thinking about. Remember a pic of him waiting, all trussed up for the tug with a rather pensive air about him. Book was Reginald Turnhill's tome on Farnborough, but memory is stretching back about twenty five years and may be a tad dodgy.

Conan

[jabberwok]

You describe the photo exactly.

I saw one of those HC130H's over Liverpool (of all places) back in 1971 with its jaws agape. Maybe they were trying to extract someone? :}

[treadigraph]

Too early for Derek Hatton, Jabberwok! :E

[airborne_artist]

Virgo emailed me the scans of AP129 covering glider snatching, which I have put into a three page pdf - download it here (http://www.hrmconsultancy.net/pprune/AP129.pdf). It's about 650Kb

[ewe.lander]

Re; John Farleys post.
My neighbour was the Glider pilot at the SBAC display shortly after the RAF display. Recalls how the winch snapped, winch op lost his fingers, the Dak was damaged - leaving a sheepish Glider crew sat in the middle of the Airfield! He still lives near Middle Wallop having retired from the AAC in '77. He landed a Horsa on D-day in Normandy, landed in Arnhem and was eventually a POW. After the war he stayed on Gliders until becoming an Auster pilot, then all the AAC Rotary until his retirement - amazing Aviator.

[Windy Militant]

Similar Lines and possibly even more hairy was something I read about jungle opps in Cubs.
Not sure if it was Burma or Vietnam but they had a system for very short landings and take offs in and out of jungle clearings.
For landing they had a sort of trapeze affair that was hung from a horizontal rope system with some sort of arrestor fitted to it. You had a hook on top of the Aircraft which you snagged onto the trapeze which then stopped the A/C in short order and left it hanging a few feet off the deck. The suspension rope was then slackened which lowered the A/C to the ground.
To get out of the clearing they fixed a rope to the wingtip of the A/C and looped this round a pylon. Take off was achieved by roaring around the pylon like a control line model close to the ground until sufficient airspeed was achived. Then came the interesting bit, once up to speed the nose was raised and a climb initiated until the rope came off the top of the pylon allowing free flight to occur. :uhoh:
If memory serves the landing system was tested at Boscombe Down but I think that they demured from trying the take off technique!
And you thought Helicopters were iffy! ;)

[teeteringhead]

Shades of the Curtiss Sparrowhawk ...http://www.aviation-central.com/1919-1939/images/adn5d-sh.jpg ... designed to take off and land (if these are the right words) from a hook underneath an airship...... http://www.naval-airships.org/image/f9c2.gif

[DaveW]

If memory serves the landing system was tested at Boscombe Down but I think that they demured from trying the take off technique!

Windy, that's the Brodie system.

Quote below from here (http://www.nasm.si.edu/research/aero/aircraft/piperl4.htm)

Navy Lieutenant James Brodie, on assignment to the Office of Strategic Services (OSS), forerunner of the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA), developed a system in which an L-4 or an L-5, with a hook mounted above the cockpit, could catch a trapeze bar suspended off the side of an LST or Liberty ship... Brodie system only saw operational service during the invasion of Okinawa. Lt. Brodie also developed a land-based version for use in the Far Eastern theaters in situations where there was insufficient time or capability to construct a suitable airstrip, but the opportunity never arose to use this system.

http://www.ww2incolor.com/gallery/albums/us_navy/pipercub_brodie.jpg

More info here (http://www.nasm.si.edu/museum/udvarhazy/construction/image_display.cfm?imageID=321)

[Wunper]

Teeteringhead
The only surviving Sparrowhawk is at the US Navy Museum in Pensacola and very pretty it is and tiny 25'5' span by 20' length.
http://i.pbase.com/u9/murr4y/upload/1631586.P0007316.JPG
Heres the rig inside the USS Macon
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d107/wunper/Sparrowhawk1.jpg
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d107/wunper/Sparrowhawk2.jpg

W

[Windy Militant]

Well Done Dave W That's a splendid link!:ok:
Now if someone can point us at the roundabout take off system we'll be tickity boo. ;)