Dual UK + US training PPL?

[neilcharlton]

Is is possible to go to the US for 2 weeks start my PPL training then come back to the UK to finish it off ??
3 weeks is a bit much time to take off work considering i only get 22 days a year sob sob . What would be the best US school to do this as well ??
cheers

[BEagle]

Yes. But please note that the CAA have now changed the policy on this since it was introduced in 2005! Thank you, BillieBob for pointing this out - I wasn't aware of it!

Places like Ormond Beach Aviation cater for those happy to work at a high activity rate towards a JAR-FCL PPL; if you prefer to work at a more leisurly pace or cannot take the full time off needed to complete the course in the time they advertise, just pick any convenient FAA PPL training school.

I'm surprised that so few people know that they can now train at any school which trains for any ICAO licence and have the training credited towards a JAR-FCL PPL. This change came in last year, but doesn't seem to have been well publicised.

[Keygrip]

One of the reasons may be because, apparently, it's not strictly true.

A CAA inspector advised me, last year (when I commented on schools cancelling their JAA approval status), that what the paragraph in LASORS meant to say was "AT THE DISCRETION OF THE CAA..." and that the discretion would be based on the applicant proving beyond a reasonable doubt, that the training already undertaken was genuinely towards an ICAO licence but, for reasons beyong the applicants individual control, they had to cease that training and continue within the JAA empire.

An example given to me was a US citizen who had some thirty odd hours training towards a genuine FAA PPL when his parents decided to emigrate to the United Kingdom.

Now, back to the question - it is quite common for someone to start training with a USA based (CAA/JAA approved) school but finish the course in the United Kingdom. Just don't expect to do it in 45 hours.

A much better solution would be to START your training in the UK, get all the writtens exams, R/T practical and first solo done, and then go to the States to get the good weather for the longer duration flights (cross country).

I know I'm going to get flamed - but don't really care, 'cause it's my job - but if you fly with students, you can see a clear difference between those who have started their training in the UK from those who have started it with a USA based school.

[BEagle]

I understood that the reason was that ICAO advised the CAA not to discriminate......

If it's the CAA inspector I'm thinking of, I told him that LASORS had changed to reflect this policy change....

Total nonsense of the CAA inspector to imply the conditions you state being at the CAA's discretion.

Edit - Please note that the CAA have now changed the policy!

[BillieBob]

The relevant passage in LASORS states:In circumstances where previous flying training towards an ICAO PPL(A) has been completed but no licence has been issued, PLD will consider the crediting of such flight time towards the issue of a JAR-FCL PPL(A). In all cases, applicants must apply in writing to PLD enclosing appropriate training records for the PPL training received. PLD will review the training records to establish a course of training and advise the applicant accordingly."Total nonsense of the CAA inspector to imply the conditions you state being at the CAA's discretion."? - I think not!! It seems to me very much as though it is entirely at the CAA's discretion.

Perhaps, BEagle, you could tell us how many cases you are aware of when someone has been allowed to credit such flight time other than in the circumstances quoted by Keygrip? - or perhaps not.

[BEagle]

BillieBob, you are correct. It seems that the CAA has changed the policy yet again without notification.

In LASORS2005, the statement was:

Any previous flying experience in single
engine-piston (Land) aeroplanes gained during an
incomplete course of training towards an ICAO
PPL(A) may be counted towards the requirements
for the grant of a JAR-FCL PPL(A). Applicants will
be required to obtain copies of their training
records from their training provider, together with
confirmation from them that the training completed
was towards the grant of an ICAO PPL(A).
Applicants will be required to attend a registered
facility or approved FTO and provide evidence of
their previous training to the Chief Flying
Instructor. The CFI will then establish a course of
training taking into account previous experience to
ensure that all the specific requirements of C1.2
have been met.

Whereas in 2006 it now reads:

In circumstances where previous flying training
towards an ICAO PPL(A) has been completed
but no licence has been issued, PLD will consider
the crediting of such flight time towards the issue
of a JAR-FCL PPL(A). In all cases, applicants
must apply in writing to PLD enclosing
appropriate training records for the PPL training
received. PLD will review the training records to
establish a course of training and advise the
applicant accordingly.

I know of occasions where credit has been given towards the NPPL, but don't have information about JAR-FCL applicants.

If someone started training in the UK following the LASORS2005 statement, and now finds that the CAA won't accept their licence application, things could prove interesting.

Another call to Head of Licensing, I think.

[HillerBee]

I wouldn't do that. Most flightschools don't like it at all, and then I mean the UK flightschools on your return. It's not nice to finish somebody who was taught a different way at another school anyway.

I did my FAA PPL in just 12 days in California (long time ago). Just finish a FAA PPL in the States then come back do some flying with it (You need a 100 hrs TT to do this) and convert to a JAA PPL. (Takes a written in Air Law, Human Performance, VFR Communications and a flight-test).

This is by far cheaper than getting a JAA one in the States and getting an FAA is just faster. And you got a lot more schools to choose from.

[IO540]

"It's not nice to finish somebody who was taught a different way at another school anyway."

I can see where you are coming from, but with all due respect (and please don't take this the wrong way) I don't think a typical UK "flying instructor" (usually, an ATPL hour builder who is hoping to be passing through the business, on his way to an airline job, no slower than the students he teaches) is well placed to criticise instructors in the USA (where I am right now) who usually do the job for a living and have been doing it for say 20 years.

It's like a plasterer saying to me that he doesn't want to work in my house because another plasterer (who walked off the job, as they tend to these days) started it.

Trade protection is the real issue here. That is what the CAA is doing, too. They get a lot of stick (not to mention income) from the only part of UK GA that speaks with a relatively unified voice: the schools.

The other thing, seemingly known by even fewer people, is that the ANO validates any ICAO PPL for use in a G-reg, so to fly a G-reg worldwide you don't need a JAA license. The plain FAA one will do just fine. You need an FAA medical, which for some completely unguessable reason is about half the cost of the CAA one :O

True, you cannot add the IMC Rating to the FAA PPL but you can add the FAA IR to it and that will be far more useful for going places and for long term flying enjoyment and utility. And, given that we are already working on the assumption that the subject is willing and able to train in the USA, the time to knock off an FAA IR (in say AZ or CA weather) will be comparable to the time it takes to do an IMCR in the UK, despite the IR being a lot harder, and the cost will be similar too.

The only reason I see for having a JAA PPL is for flying non-G European planes (in which case each Euro country needs to validate the FAA PPL specifically, and I guess some won't), or for renting planes from some anally retentive UK school which doesn't know the regs.

[Keygrip]

<<who usually do the job for a living and have been doing it for say 20 years.>>

Absolute garbage.

I've met hundreds more full time, professional, flight instructors in the UK than in the USA, Indeed, I don't think I've met ONE full time, doing it for a living for 20 years, career instructor in the North America continent unless they own the school (or a major part of it).

The supply/demand issue for instructors out here demands that the poor sods are abused for a couple of years at $10 per Hobbs hour for tuition that the vast majority of them admit is purely to gain log book hours for their own licence.

Even met one :mad: that flew his students from a fully towered, fire attended airfield, straight past another airfield (with two runways) to a third, non-towered, restricted, single runway airfield that was 52 miles away.....to do circuit practise. Why? Because it was 52 miles away and gave him "FAA Cross Country" time to log towards his ATPL requirements. That is nothing short of theft.

To say that the FAA guys are in it for life but the UK ones are hour builders is shameful - if anything, it's completely the other way round.

The rest of your post - I agree with. Why bother with a JAA PPL.

HillerBee- it doesn't need 100hours of FAA flying to convert (but it would require more written exams).

BEagle - Save yourself as telephone call. The notification is at the top of page 3 of LASORS 2006. Second line down.

[BillieBob]

BEagle, I think you'll find that the CAA had little choice in the matter. Their previous policy was not compliant with JARs, which makes no allowance for such crediting of hours. The fact that credits have been allowed against the Noddy PPL is clearly due to its being a national licence and not compliant with ICAO Annex 1 so it doesn't matter to anyone else what the CAA choose to do.

[BEagle]

The statement "In circumstances where previous flying training towards an ICAO PPL(A) has been completed but no licence has been issued....." is the point I wish to have clarified. Does it mean that the entire course of training must have been completed, or just that 'some' training had been completed?

It seems that the main difference is that it is now PLD who makes the assessment, rather than the CFI. Personally I would advise anyone in this situation to take an assessment ride with the CFI of wherever the JAR-FCL school is before sending off the paperwork to PLD so that he/she can lend an authoritative airborne assessment to assist PLD's decision.

Puerile remarks about the NPPL are nihil ad rem. Industry said that they wanted it - and the CAA has devolved most of the discretion to industry. It is also the model upon which the EASA recreational PPL is likely to be based.

There are probably good and bad instructors both in the USA and the UK - and probably on Mars as well!

[BillieBob]

Puerile remarks about the NPPL are nihil ad rem. Industry said that they wanted it That's pretty rich coming from one so paranoid about the 'Microsoft Pilot Licence'!

Pot - Kettle?

[IO540]

Keygrip - experiences evidently vary. I am at a school in Arizona where all but one or two are clearly too old to go to the airlines. One is doing it at about 50-60, after ditching a previous career. OTOH my UK experience is nearly 100% ATPL hour builders, including not a few crooks of the sort you describe and doing exactly that, and worse, sometimes much worse.

Re the NPPL, the industry wanted it but (this will upset Beagle I am afraid) the industry is in business to make money, not to produce capable PPL pilots. The NPPL looks a lot better on the price list than a full PPL. The fact that a certain standard needs to be reached to fly and navigate in the same airspace (which was the view of instructors I spoke to at the time) is not relevant to the "industry" because, as I said, producing capable pilots is not the objective. So the NPPL is used as a route for those who cannot get the CAA Class 2. All a bit cynical really, but then if someone makes arbitrary rules, one can expect people to employ arguably strange tactics to get around them.

For long term flying enjoyment for a new pilot, the NPPL is a bit of a dead end (no flying abroad), but then as I said......

[neilcharlton]

Thanks for all your responses seems I’ve opened up a can of worms . So just to clarify.

I can either start my training in the UK or USA and still complete a JAA PPL in either country, providing both establishments are JAA approved?

My other option is to get an FAA PPL license and I can still fly G- reg planes etc just not get an IMC rating ?

[Keygrip]

And just to repeat what we've already said ;) , "Yes!"

<<BTW - I hate worms.>>

[B9]

Recognition of ICAO training towards JAR PPL is noted. However, with the confusion of mutual recognition and reciprocity within Europe, can someone who has completed part of a JAR-PPL Course in a JAA State transfer that training to another JAA State?

[Keygrip]

Without looking in the book, I would say "depends from which state to which state".

Next line would be "flying hours, probably yes - ground exam, probably no".

(That didn't help, did it?).