Pacific Blue to disappear ?

[Dale Hardale]

Any VB people care to comment on a very recent board meeting in Brisbane where a decision to finish Pac Blue appears to have been made and use Virgin Blue to operate the existing services.

If this decision is true, what effect would this have on pilots currently working (contracted) to Pac Blue? :confused:

[Macrohard]

Heard Virgin will be operating all of the services within the next 6 months. Apparently there was a recent review of it's Pacific Ops, and it didn't paint a pretty picture.
I understand Pac Blue have way too many crew for the amount of flying and that "synergies" could be developed if the flying were transferred to Virgin. Interestingly enough however, the Flt Attendants will remain on the services!
Can't say what would happen to the tech crew - there was discussion of integration into Virgin with one very senior employee stating "it would be a long time before any of them see a command!" Guess they will be re-hired as F/O's if they are lucky? ..... time will tell

[COP]

If this were the case, then will all the Pacific flying be done out of Australia? Possibly a base in Sydney? What about the fact that there is a lot of flying on the Poly runs that would be hard to do directly out of Aus, ie Auckland-Tonga etc. There has obviously been a large amount of money spent setting up PB in NZ, would it make sense to shut the doors completely? What about the prospect of the PB crew simply joining the VB group and operating on the same conditions, super and an increased salary. I am sure the pilots and cabin crew would like that. Since the days of PB there has been a large amount of sceptisism in the entire operation, who knows where it will go from there. Surely PB has been doing a reasonable job in the 2 years it has been operating, there is no record breaking on the Tasman and to break even is a bonus.?????????Where does this VB info come from anyway

[Prop's ????]

Lets hope they don’t offer direct commands to PB captains.

As a company point of view, it would make sense. ie: no training required. :eek: :eek: :eek:

As for the current FO’s time will tell. :ouch: :ouch: :ouch:

I hope the company looks after the current pilots first.

I wouldn’t want to be in flight Op’s if they decide to use PB captains. :} :} :}

[Buster Hyman]

Okay, I'll bite...What happened to SQ's veto of using the Virgin Blue name outside of Oz?:confused:

[sweetpollypurebred]

Why would we want these Pilots, when for the last 2 years they have been undercutting us. They are contractors! so their contract is finished, good-bye.

To those who would like a job as an F/O apply like everyone else in the industry. We already have plenty of people with command experience who have sat patiently in the right hand seat awaiting their turn. Also, this is not to mention those who have enormous experience in the right hand seat, and are long over due for an upgrade.

I dont think there is much sympathy for the PB crew?:{

[Macrohard]

Buster,

Still to be called Pacific Blue, however, crewed by Virgin Pilots.

Expect an application form for NZ licences in your pigeon holes shortly!

[Grivation]

Still only talking about a company operating 4 aeroplanes. Hardly a major shakeup. Good news for the VB guys - at bit of variety in the flying.

Believe PB were operating with about 10 crews per aircraft. :ooh:

[Buster Hyman]

Right! Gotcha Macrohard!:ok:

[fire wall]

ahhhh bitterpollypurebred, it is vb that came in undercutting all and sundry. Talk of a head in the sand syndrome.....or is it head up your ar5e. There is a saying son......."a rising tide raises all ships"....the converse is also true and your company was born, and is structured on the latter.

[COP]

I wonder where you guys get your info. From the sounds of it it is all fact and not just rumor. Has it not been the case where captains have been flying together at VB and that there may be a need for more pilots. I assume there is still some leaving for other higher paying jobs worldwide? Also if VB could have done ALL the flying initially then WHY did they set up PB? The pilots who fly at PB are just the same as those at VB. They are all pilots and should not be treated with the disrespect that some on this forum seem to think is fair. Everyone should remember where they came from.

[Macrohard]

COP,
PB was initially set up as a cheaper version of DJ. The accountants worked out that if they were employed in NZ, PB didn't have to pay super, loss of licence insurance and a few others, along with the fact that they were on less salary and on contract if things didn't work out the way they expected.

After a couple of years of ops PB have now found themselves in the position of have twice the crew to aircraft ratio of DJ. All the cost incentives that were initially there to be had, have now become a debt to the airline. PB were expected to expand, however only their main routes still exist with only minor expansion in the Pacific. This leaves PB with only a minor part in the Pacific and inefficient rosters, wheras DJ has now has identified synergies that would actually make it cheaper to have the aircraft crewed by DJ pilots.

It now turns out that PB have ETOPs and DJ had it, then lost it, want it back, but can't get it!? This is why all DJ pilots will need a NZ licence when operating an NZ aircraft on ETOPS routes through the Pacific.

Hope that clarifies some points?

BTW, no disrespect intended. I personally know a handful of guys working with PB and would only hope the best for all of them, if this works out the way previously mentioned. Most of us have been out of work before and I wouldn't wish that on anyone.

[Gnadenburg]

Why would we want these Pilots, when for the last 2 years they have been undercutting us. They are contractors! so their contract is finished, good-bye.
To those who would like a job as an F/O apply like everyone else in the industry. We already have plenty of people with command experience who have sat patiently in the right hand seat awaiting their turn. Also, this is not to mention those who have enormous experience in the right hand seat, and are long over due for an upgrade.
I dont think there is much sympathy for the PB crew?:{


Well there is the pot calling the kettle black! Virgin Blue pilots bemoaning being professsionally undercut.

What a horrible tone toward others in possible misfortune, from the creme de la creme of the crap.

[Chocks Away]

I hate to dispell your rumour but it is incorrect. It is public record that Pacific/Poly Blue are strong and have an extensive Pacific network, in only their 2 years of operation.
What pricks my ears up is the International (A340) prospects, up agianst QF, across the Pacific (as on other threads here).
Also, number of crew per frame is very dependant of the length of flying legs undertaken... ie you have no choice but to overnight crews on some of the long ETOPS routes.
Happy landings :ok:

[MIss Behaviour]

Does this mean if VB take over all the PB flying that they will then pay for the cost of the New Zealand licence plus all the sundry expenses associated with the NZ medical tests you must undertake in order to obtain the NZ Licence?

I don't think there are a lot of Doctors in Australia who do NZ aviation medicals however there is one guy in Brisbane who does Australian, New Zealand plus quite a few other countries also.

Dr G Chaffey
Aviation Medical Centre Brisbane
585 Old Cleveland Road
CAMP HILL QLD 4152
Tel: 07 3398 8177
Fax: 07 3843 0055

Good luck to all PB & VB drivers - hope no-one gets the rough end of the pineapple! :hmm: :hmm:

[relax737]

props, I'm not with you. Why would you not want to be in Flt Ops if PB crew come on board?

And which w@nker mentioned PB undercutting VB? Isn't tht what VB has been doing since its inception; doing it for less than QF? So how's that different?

I'm sure youcan justify it, or at least the former CP can. It was worth upwards of $10 Million, yes Million, in his back pocket to screw his pilots down.

[Prop's ????]

Relax737

Reference my Flt Op’s comment.

I said if they use PB captains before VB FO’s, nothing said about using PB crew.

I was only referring to the current FO’s possibly being upset.

A lot of VB FO’s have been around since day one (5 years). They are just as qualified as anyone else.

[COP]

As one of the other people mentioned the reason for the seemingly lack of synergy at PB would probably have something to do with the fact that the sectors are long and the flight and duty restrictions would not allow a return trip to NZ. Even some of the Aus to Island flying would surely test the limit, ie Syd-Nan-Syd. It may seem that some do not work as hard as others, but I would think that most would rather be flying and earning than sitting around at a hotel. I have no answer for the extra crew other than what I just mentioned, but if that is not the reason, then someone should explain why there is more crew per aircraft. I could see that most pilots working 60 hours a month could do with more, especially thiose that want it and if the number of crew per aircraft was reduced then this would occur. Less crew and more flying probably leading to more whinging and less morale. But I guess that is what every pilot and every airline has excelled at. As I said earlier, if there is a reason for the more crews lets hear it. Anyone??? Other than the Pacific flying what else is there? Everything done at PB is surely done with the approval of big brother at VB, if this is the case then there must be a solid reason.

[sweetpollypurebred]

Listen here Fire Knob, I`d be real careful who I called SON, I`d reckon I was long at work earning my keep, while you were still suckling your Mummy's Breast!!

So hitch up your short pants Boy,and climb aboard your Tricycle and get yourself of to school, the bell's about to go.:{

To you Knackerberg you still need to go and see a priest or a prostitute and expel your bitterness. keep smiling happyman!!!

[Dehavillanddriver]

Props,
Sorry old boy, but your quote

A lot of VB FO’s have been around since day one (5 years).

is incorrect.

1 maybe 2 F/O's that are eligible for promotion have been around for more than 4 -4.5 years, the rest are more junior than that, and those couple have not yet got their command because of various reasons, not the least of which being when the last commands were awarded early last year they were not ready.

[Prop's ????]

Dehavillanddriver

Without dragging this out of proportion.

Yes you are correct; :ok: my point is that there are many FO’s in the VB network, which are more than ready to take up a command position.

The last command training took place around September 2004. So any pilot that didn’t have the requirements then, hopefully wouldn’t have that problem now.

Keep in mind this point of view is of a general nature, I’m sure there would still be pilots not ready for a command.

[Dale Hardale]

Interesting replies but no real feedback or confirmation that it is going to happen.

The current PB cost base would increase significantly if VB crews took this on full time, as Australian labour costs would still be paid. Contract crews are very cheap (relatively speaking).

Also, can't see how PB crew numbers could be reduced much with the current network and duty hours involved.

It may well pay to keep PB afloat until all the issues with Trans Pacific flying, use of the VB name etc etc are resolved - and that could take years.

The other "biggy" is how will an outcome from the barney between Toll and Patrick affect both VB and PB?

[jetblues]

No one really knows and there is a lot of hot air within the ranks.

There is a current review of Work Rules in progress, the result of which could potentially seal the fate of the PB crews, and introduce some much needed variety into the VB pilots network.

Alternatively if the VB crews don't accept/negotiate changes, the future could be gold for the PB crews including wide bodies to the USA.

[Dehavillanddriver]

I think I can say with almost total certainty that pay and conditions will not go backwards - they may not leap ahead, but they won't go backwards.

I think the reference to the eba was to do with flight and duty rules.

Regardless of the eba, the widebodies, if they actually come, will probably be VH tailed because of the traffic right issues.

[jetblues]

Re-read my post matey.

I never have nor ever will advocate a reduction in VB's pay or conditions. Work Rules changes will hopefully be a win-win for pilots and Management. Work Rules changes could involve flexibility etc, not a reduction in conditions.

I could see PB's operation moving to a Sydney base with a long-haul consideration for whoever gets the gig - VB or PB.

History will tell but either way there is no way I see the VB crew signing off on a long haul/widebody deal as shabby as the one J@#*r have signed !

[R.Cruizo]

Well I hope PB stays just where it is. The inside story I here is thats exactly whats going to happen!

A nice quiet little job flying around the Pacific in a nice quiet little industry, or join the kindergarten here in Oz.

I know what my choice would be!

[1000fps]

Yes, where is the business plan to confront the structured roll out of J* all across the Pacific in what use to be the domain of smart,contemporary, VB with its sassy PB brand?
J* is about to eat PB's lunch and there is absolutely no strategic overview of any response, plan or counterpoint.....
Why I bet the Flight Operations staff on the line, don't know they have a new CEO. Officially any way.
The silence from the continued review of Pacific Blue Operations is,,,,,,
well indicative of one of those paralysis of VB management.
If there is a future for PB the time to point out where it lies is Now.
Serious comments from HGW and Pete Conrad welcomed.
Over to you, all.

[Chocks Away]

Yuh dreamin...
The reason "Pornstar" is launching into the Pacific (and only on a limited basis mind you) is 'cause PB have done a good job of expanding the Pacific market (on public record) and putting a dent in Air Pacifics' ledger (partly QF owned!).

PB are just going about their jobs, doing the jobs and looking after the jobs at hand, complimenting the Virgin/Rex network.

While I'm at it : Pornstars' roll out in Christchurch was funny... big street procession, bands, road writing etc and PB just sent down a handfull of their available cabin crew/staff, handing out brochures and talking to people... took the pace of the launch...

All's fair in love and war.:}

Happy landings:ok:

[propaganda]

PB will need to expand fasssssssssst , or be left in the wake of Jet*

[anawanahuanana]

As for the Virgin name being used outside of Oz, how about this for the way it is going to work?

Toll buys Patrick (and all who sail in her).
Toll sells VB to Virgin Atlantic (49% owned by SQ).
Therefore, SQ now own a large portion of VB.
If the Oz Govt won't let SQ fly accross the Pacific in their own right, then at least they can take a chunk of the profit from VBs new long haul pacific venture.
I think you'll find when SQ have a stake in VB, there won't be such a problem using the Virgin name outside Oz anymore.
Makes sense to me.............

[BGQ]

Excuse Me !!!!! :confused: :confused: :confused:
The reason "Pornstar" is launching into the Pacific (and only on a limited basis mind you) is 'cause PB have done a good job of expanding the Pacific market (on public record) and putting a dent in Air Pacifics' ledger (partly QF owned!).
Where have the expanded the market? They might have stolen the odd pax off the other carriers but expanded the market is bull. They are doing very little more than what Poly was doing before.

[Chocks Away]

:hmm:

Supporting info here (http://www.flypacificblue.com/about_us/news/index.php?co=vb&artdate=092005#news290905)

[jetblues]

Chocks beware "lies, damned lies and statistics".

If there were 100 passengers a week to Vanuatu and now there are 150 that represents a 50% growth. However 50 passengers is not even a third of the 738's capacity if you get my point.

The PR smells of someone trying real hard to hang on to a sinking ship "just in case".

Once again no offence to the great PB crew intended. For their sake I hope all goes well.

[Chocks Away]

Fellas, there's no sinking ship as you blokes try to spread.

That link was taken from the first year of operation if you care toi look at the date. Not PR but have a look at the asterix at the bottom and it's offical Dept Trans figures!

It is public knowledge that in the first 2 years of operations THEY MADE A PROFIT AND ARE HEALTHY... How much plainer does it have to be, or more reading of actual statistics do you need before you understand.

[BGQ]

I can't believe that you would provide a link to PBs own Web site to back up your belief. Ask the Vanuatu Govt, the Fiji Govt etc if visitor numbers have increased......
The Flights Samoa etc were being done by Poly before they hooked up with PB...
BTW the average Samoan is pi:mad: ed off with the short seat pitch etc on the PB aircraft compared to the Poly aircraft that was handed back to the leasors.
PB spin not market growth mate..

[Chocks Away]

I'll repeat in bold for those of you that can't read and put 2 and 2 together... IN ASTERIX:* Bureau of Transport and Regional Services (BTRE) publication "International Scheduled Air Transport - Aviation Statistics" and are for the period September 04 to April 05....not MY BELIEF or PB spin doctors!!!
You have a short memory.
Poly went under/struggled to survive, as has many Pacific carriers over the times.
Pacific Blue/Virgin struck an amicable deal with the current owners and has operated since, where there may possibly have been an over priced (read inequitable) operation otherwise.
Happy Landings:ok:
...and don't call me mate.

[BGQ]

Chocks away Maaate!

The BTRE did not attribute the so called expansion to PB.... Godfrey did.

As Air NZ and Qantas have found out on the Tasman .... extra flights don't necessarily mean market expansion. Re-distribution of existing customers among carriers does not mean market expansion.

Re-distribution of existing passengers to new carriers does not mean market expansion.

[BGQ]

Poly still exists Maate! It has not "gone under" It does struggle under pathetic management but what airline doesn't.

So does anybody know (apart from those who paid and took incentives) how long the deal is for?

[Chocks Away]

...mate... !? :}

[Contract Con]

BGQ,

Poly may still exist, however it operates none of the routes spoken of.
That would be Polynesian Blue.
Different kava bowl:bored:

Cheers,

Con:ok:

[BGQ]

Contract Con,

You are right but the point is that the rights to the routes Poly used to operate still belong to the Samoan Govt, the fact that, for the moment, they are operated by PB does not mean that they always will be.

Polynesian still exists as an airline operating domestic and international flights. Poly Blue is 47.5 % Samoan Govt, 47.5% Virgin and 5% Alan Grey.

Speculating now...
It wouldn't take much (if the Political will was there) for the Samoan Govt and Alan Grey to hand the rights back to Poly. In any case I bet there is a time limit of some sort on how long PB have the rights assigned to them