Time for a punch up !!

[A and C]

There are enough of you who are unhappy with the antics of te CAA and you all express your veiws very well on this forum.

No doubt the inmates of the big glass building at Gatwick that take so much of your money and put so little back into GA are reading this forum for light ammusment during the lunch hour.

I for one think that it's time to bring the CAA to account and let them know that if they don't start taking notice of us we will make life very uncomfortable for them.

You guys all know the issues that are the root of the troubles within GA, you read about them in the flying mag's so insted of ranting to us on this forum use your time to put some real pressure on the CAA and write to your MP.

It is so easy just take a look at the issues in the magazines and with the help of the link below and your postcode you can get a letter off to your MP in the time it takes to reply to a thread on Pprune.

The brass hats at the CAA will not be able to fend off 20 or 30 MP's questions with the ease that they seem to dismiss us individualy....... go on it will only take you a few seconds and if enough of you do something GA can start applying real political power to an authority that has gone it's own sweet way for years.

www.theyworkforyou.com

[niknak]

Or why not write to the CAA with polite and constructive comments of precisely what your problem is.

I frequently read rants and missives, both here and in the G/A Mag's about how dreadful the CAA are, yet it's very rare you ever see a constructive critisism.
I'm not defending the CAA, but if you can't adopt a more mature approach, no one will listen.

Professionally, I am governed by and have to work alongside the CAA (Safety Regulation Group and others), and if I have a problem or a grievence, I find out who it is appropriate to contact and speak to them.

Instead of bitching and being deliberately antagonistic, why not do the same?

I think you'll find that if you tackle your MP in the same way as you post, they'll make the same suggestion as me and tell you to come back equipped with the direct evidence that the CAA are not doing their job properly.

[A and C]

The time for talking to the CAA is over they have ignored the cabinet office rules on Regularitory impact assessment and they have not actioned a Small buisness impact test on the latest price hike.

These are goverment requirments for industry regulation if the CAA is unwilling or unable to abide by the goverments rules for regulation then it is time to bring these people to book.

The cabinet office knows that the rules have been breached but states that they have no powers to enforce a retrospective inpact assessment, this just sends the message that if the CAA ignores the rules of good regulation the they can do what ever they like.

Well it's time to make them re-think the actions that they have taken and if they won't play by the rules then the only course of action open to me as an individual is to talk to my MP.

It's high time the rest of the industry got as belligerent as myself and perhaps then the management at the CAA would take some notice, in the long term it is in the interests of the employees of the CAA to have a thriving GA industry but as to the managment they are only interested in the short term because by the time the distruction of the UK GA industry comes home to roost they will be on the board of some multi national company racking up a third pension.

A year ago I could write a C of FF under "A" conditions Now they quote a month to produce this document charge £80 for it and of course I still have to take full technical responsability. . . . . . is this good regulation or jobs for the boys?

As I said at the start of this post the time for talking to the CAA is over the only thing that these will peope understand is questions being asked in the house of commons and the chance of drawing the dole.

[Fuji Abound]

A and C

Very well said.

It will be interesting how much support you get from what is usually a totally apathetic bunch.

It would be good to see this PPRuNe forum make constructive representation to the minister.

Close to my heart has always been the matter of a sensible PPL IR. All the evidence demonstrates that pilots should be encouraged to possess IR skills and yet despite all the talk including the involvement of AOPA over the years the European IR has moved further and further beyond the reach of the average private pilot. It is ludicrous. Thank goodness for our IMCR unique in Europe - although I suspect that is only still will us, because the authorities have not found a way to abolish it without giving everyone grandfather IR rights!

[A and C]

Send a letter to your MP ! the time has come to do something in the time it takes to say some thing on Pprune with the link above and your post code your opinions could be putting pressure on the CAA via the Minister for Transport.

The CAA should be regulating the ALL the aviation industry not killing parts of it because of the greed of one big company.

It's time to fight back, be the thrust of your letter mode"S", engineering regulation ,VFR en route charges or the lack of a affordable PPL/IR.

The issue is not the point ,what we need is these people answering MP's questions and thinking that there job is on the line if they don't play by the rules.

Volume of scrutiny from parliment is the issue now, we need to be so much trouble to the top management of the CAA that they think very hard about the impact of any new regulation or charge that they try to make.

[Captain Mayday]

Not all problems can necessarily be laid at the door of the CAA, but they certainly don't help - we can only pray that after initial teething troubles EASA does what it has intimated by heading toward a more GA friendly regime. However, bureaucracies never quite work like that.

Here's my list of what is now driving dedicated aviation people out of aviation - and if they leave ..... what hope is there for the rest .. ? Cost is right up there, on several counts ..... followed by bureaucratic bloodymindedness and apparent unaccountability (or hiding behind 'safety').

1 - chief amongst the costs is the continual rising cost of AVGAS - now generally £1.20 a litre plus VAT (50% more expensive than 6 years ago) - How much of that does the govt rake in in tax and duty .. ? 70p?

2 - landing fees, particularly at regional airports. Newcastle, Edinburgh, Glasgow, Bristol all spring to mind. Rates have gone up by 100% - 130% in 5 years. Squeezed out by bean counters who have the sole interest of turning OUR airports (where many of us have lived and breathed since we were lads) into shopping centres.

3 - licensing/airworthiness/exam fees - always increasing and always more than the USA or Canada.

4 - engineering costs - not the hourly rate which always strikes me as reasonable, but the continual stream of new rules or re-interpretations Classic one is the recent issue over engine TBO (hours versus years). If an engine is 12 years old it has to be replaced or flown on Private Cat only. Unnecessary. But, on that point, if it is considered 'unsafe' for Public Cat, then why is it considered safe for 'Private' ? Or the corollary, if it is 'safe' for 'private' flight then why not for flying club rental ? Same aircraft.

5 - insurance - never comes down, every excuse used to raise it (9/11 was the classic) now hitting £2000-£3000 for a 4 seat £50k club tourer.

6 - lack of answerability - a friend has been trying to get a project moving for over a year - sought advice from CAA - who said it was no longer their pigeon, and couldn't comment - so buck passed over to EASA ... who had just moved to Cologne and don't seem to have enough staff to cope with the workload .. still waiting ....

7 - FM immunity, 8.33 Khz spacing, how many old radios were whipped out at £2500 a time .... any apology, any compensation from those (the commercial radio stations) who benefited financially from our loss ?

8 - and the next one .. compulsory mode S ... £4000? by 2008 - any benefit to GA flying outside controlled airspace? any benefit to me flying VFR?

9 - any compensation to GA from the airports or commercial airlines who's rapid expansion has actually forced me out of my local airport - and who then have the cheek to get the CAA to charge me more for less service ? |My loss is their financial gain - any other sphere of influence would see us compensated for our loss.

10 - a few charlatan engineering firms have ripped people off over the years and sadly made most owners very wary of the rest. Where is the iron fist of regulation to smack them into shape. How much does an annual really cost - one pal in dispute over £20k for an annual on a Cub !! And then found plenty of work that hadn't been done, and dodgy paperwork going back several years

11 - where's the united voice ? PFA only seem to want to expand their wee empire and don't cater for PA28/C172 users. AOPA, are battling valiantly, but can't be in many places at once and need more support, but pilots being pilots are loath to spend that extra £50 and join - 2 landings at a regional
airport folks.

12 - NIMBY/councils. In the last year amongst other issues we have seen attemted bans on floatplanes in Loch Lomond and the total #### up of a firstclass facility at Oban airport by a Council that should stick to emptying bins - the truth is no-one cares (but us) -and no-one (but us) will fight our corner.

[MikeJeff]

A & C

What EXACTLY is you problem??

If you have an issue with the CAA, take it up with the CAA. The PPL/IR is the remit of JAR not the CAA.. the CAA have given you a national IMC rating. More than any other JAR memeber CAA.

Room for improvement.. I've never had a serious issue with them though. You sound like a rebel without a clue if you ask me.

[A and C]

Mike jeff it is you that seems to be a bit on the clueless side.

The main issues are:-
Total disregard for Cabinet Office regulations regarding the increase of prices, some of several hundred percent
Introduction of new fees for doing nothing more than making paper , the £80 charge for a certificate of fitness for flight is a good example as one time a licenced engineer could issue this
requireing ALL aircraft to have a contract with a part M company to issue the paperwork that your engineer is doing now ,Annual cost £500
Engineers will soon have to have two licences one for EASA aircraft and one for BCAR aircraft so double the fee.

All this is just the tip of the iceburg the fees are increasing for all sorts of things the aerodrome licence fee for Seething airfield has been increased by 480% from £600 to £3800 in three years hardly a resonable increase in line with inflation.

Mike jeff it is time that you wake up to the fact that the cost of flying will go up fast as the volume of business falls as people are priced out of flying, flight safety will also suffer as pilots cut back on the flying that they do to the minimum to maintain there licences this will drive up insurance prices.

[Heliport]

A&C

Thanks for posting a useful link :ok: , but I wouldn't get too optimistic, for many reasons.
eg

The CAA isn't there to promote/help GA, or any other branch of aviation for that matter; it's there to regulate aviation and aviators.
Brits tend to complain to each other but rarely take their complaints to the people or body causing the problem.
Brits like rules; the more the better.
The attitudes displayed by MikeJeff and niknak are aren't uncommon.


Thanks also for your restrained respose to MikeJeff's rudeness.


Heliport

[englishal]

To progress beyond PPL in JAR land you are looking at around £2000 in CAA fees....for nothing but a bit of admin.....This would pay for 75% of an instrument rating in FAA land....:eek:

[A and C]

Both MikeJeff and Niknak think that if I as an individual talk to the CAA on these issues I will get a reasonoble responce and yet we can all see that they have taken no notice of two UK goverment requiements and I think one EEC requirment (that one with regard to industry taxation burden).

AOPA and the PFA to name two of the GA reprisentatives have had littlte effect on CAA policy so now I am taking the next step in the democratic system and getting my MP involved.

I have to wonder why Niknak and Mikejeff think this is a bad idea? is it because one monday morning they will get into work to find them selfs answering some very uncomfortable questions from the Minister for Transport?

Heliport
Thanks for the comments and I think that writing to my MP is a bit of a long shot however the UK GA industry is running out of options and I have to do something.

[L-Band]

Yes very well said Heliport and A and C.

Yes by all means get your MP involved, remember EASA will make the rules and regulation from now and the CAA will comply.
I do not think aircraft owners realise that they are going to be slowly priced out of the air, and it seems to me nobody seems to care!!
I think you need to take this to the Euro MP's, but do these people understand aviation and the differents between GA and Airline, I bet most of do'nt.
You need an MP who has a Pilots Licence as well so the point can be made with somebody who understands the cause.

L

[niknak]

A&C
If you (and Heliport) bothered to read my post properly, you'd see that I was refering to your attitude that would get you nowhere, not your cause.
I have over 25 years of dealing with G/A, and I am very supportive of it's cause and sympathetic to it's plight in the UK and I agree that a lot could be done to improve things.

As your MP will tell you, changing the way Government and Regulatory bodies work can't be done overnight and won't be done unless you can get everyone on board if you aren't prepared to present a constructive and balanced case

I have no case to answer to the Minister of Transport, or you as it happens, but if I did, I'd go about it in far more reasonable manner.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

As your MP will tell you....
Depending on his majority and the nature of his constituency, he might also tell you things like:

"Look, I appreciate you've got a real issue there, but you have to see it from my point of view. How's it going to appear to my destitute grannies in their mildewed council flats when the local paper runs a story about how I'm spending my time championing fee reductions for rich people with hobbies that are expensive way beyond their wildest dreams?"

[L-Band]

OK Niknak
How would you deal with this in a more reasonable manner!! Give these people some idea and i am sure that they would act on it.

As an engineer who has been involved with GA for over 40 years i am more that supportive to GA and find the answers not very helpful and encouraging in regard to support in trying to stop the CAA or EASA ruining your enjoyment of being able to fly your aeroplane.

So come on lets get some support here.

A and C keep up the good work.

L

[A and C]

The first thing is that what can I get changed by doing nothing?....... well I think you have already got the answer to that question.

The second thing is that all MP's have a job to do and they are required to put reasonable questions to apropriate the minister, remember the MP works for you.

As for the "rich peopes hobby" remark the first thing to say is that the people who will suffer the most from the damage being done to GA is the employees of the companys as they downsize and lay people off ........ yes your average working man.

I do think that what you have to say about MP's not seeing GA as an important issue and a play thing for the rich but we must make sure that they know that things like Air ambulances are part of the GA industry and that this valuble community service could get priced out of existance if the GA industry shrinks to far.

In the time that some of you have taken to post on this forum you could have made your own points to your MP via the web site link at the top of this thread.............. or are all the people who post here just a going to let the CAA & EASA price you out of the sky because you are to spineless to email your MP,s

[172driver]

Depending on his majority and the nature of his constituency, he might also tell you things like:
"Look, I appreciate you've got a real issue there, but you have to see it from my point of view. How's it going to appear to my destitute grannies in their mildewed council flats when the local paper runs a story about how I'm spending my time championing fee reductions for rich people with hobbies that are expensive way beyond their wildest dreams?"

And herein lies the problem - in the US GA is by and large seen as part of the economy, whereas in Europe (incl the UK) it is seen as an expensive hobbby at best, a nuisance and danger at worst. As long as this underlying attitude doesn't change, you won't get any joy out of the CAA (or any other regulatory body for that matter).

[egld0624]

Fully agree with 172Driver's last point and would go further to add:

It boils down to education. Education of our MP's and possibly even the certain bastions of the CAA/JAR/EASA land that flying at GA level is a credible industry and positive contributor to both local and national economies. When do MP's use GA?... possibly on an election campaign in a fast jet around the country/EU; so it's not surprising they may mistakenly prejudice GA for the wealthy.

A constructive thought (if it is not done already) BUT ON A NATIONAL SCALE:


National GA Day for MPs.

Why doesn't every single MP no matter what political ilk be invited (by the a/ds) to a day of being introduced to their local airfields within their respective constituencies (where applicable) throughout the UK & to meet at first hand the companies, persons employed and sample the users at these airfields to politely rectify the balance of prejudice and to constructively highlight the dangers of red tape to members of their electorate. There are some MP's that fly privately and are on various aviation boards; but that still remains too narrow a springboard. I do personally believe the above would be most beneficial if it it could be organised nationally and throughout the same/closest period of time.

EG:ok:

[A and C]

If you cant see the the value of putting pressure on your MP to curb the antics of the CAA and EASA then perhaps you might like to consider this:-

www.pfa.org.uk/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=000464

[Gertrude the Wombat]

...
Yes, everything you say is absolutely correct, I was just pointing out some practical realities, like it really does matter what gets printed in the local rag.
In the time that some of you have taken to post on this forum you could have made your own points to your MP via the web site link at the top of this thread
Oh, David's known all about my flying for years. I do lobby him a bit from time to time about GA amongst other things ... but I don't want to wind him up too much before the May elections as I'm up for re-election and I'm rather hoping he's going to do his usual amount of canvassing for me in my ward. :) :) :)