Bah humbug or fair play if you can manage it? RAF and the Winter Olympics

[Melchett01]

Just been perusing the latest propoganda on the RAF website and came across 2 articles about personnel being released from their duties for significant periods of time to go and play in the Winter Olympics.

Now admitedly, there is part of me that says fair play if you're good enough to represent you country at sport (even if the odds of getting a gong are probably about as high as the Liberals winning the next election) crack on; however, there is also part of me that is bloody annoyed that when we are being cut to the bone and stretched to breaking point that people are allowed to take a couple of years out to indulge their favourite past times whilst the rest of us fill the gaps and if lucky get all their leave entitlement. Surely these people should be making a choice at the start - sport or service? Do they want to fly/break jets/type for their country, or do they want to slide down a hill on a tea-tray? Whilst sport is an important part of service life, so is getting the job done and not shafting everyone for your own personal gain.

Having seen people in other branches 'represent their country' and then sod off after the Olympics when they had bled the RAF dry, this sort of stuff does chafe a bit! What exactly is the RAF going to get out of this??? Can't see them having anything other than a small RAF badge on their uniform and if lucky a brief mention by David Vine at 2am on a Sunday morning.

What's the general opinion - do I have a point or am I just becoming Victor Meldrew? Moral indignation ...... jealousy with a halo :p

[STANDTO]

Is Rory Underwood not in any more then?:}

[PPRuNeUser0211]

IMHO, although the service is stripped to bare metal, we need to keep encouraging the tradition of AT/Sport as much as possible. Having guys at the olympics, and various others at the top of their field (female powerlifters anyone?;)) is the only way that (by the luckyest of unlikely chances) should some muppet realise they're running us ragged and decide we need a little time to develop without being hot and sandy, we'll have any idea of want to do! Fair play to them I say. At the end of the day, one guy/gal out of 40,000, not really that bad, good bit of pr and makes the rest of us glow with pride;)!

[airborne_artist]

Melchett

I think you've taken too many of your Victor Meldrew tablets. The guys/gals who have made the Olympics have worked their bits off for years to get to that level. Releasing them for a few weeks (some of which is certainly their leave) to compete at the highest level is great for them, excellent for the Services, and probably just as good for recruiting (£ for £) as the Dead Sparrows.

ISTR that the lady Flt Lt who got a Bronze in the last Winter Olympics generated plenty of +ve PR.

[dallas]

If they can do it, good luck to them! There is still a percentage of the Service that can just go off and do sport rather than work, that can take weekends for granted, strictly stick to office hours and - believe it or not - have refused to be called in out-of-hours. But thats another issue...

If they can get away with it and nobody can see the low 'return' well...

What does annoy is when Bloggs spends 6 months away bobsleighing or whatever, to have 'represents the UK bobsleigh team' in his ACR as a, say, rigger. It's less prevailent now, but national representation used to be a good way of getting promoted - so all the RAF got was a cpl bobsleigh team member who occasionally does rigger stuff.

I say keep it if thats what people want, but they shouldn't benefit at all professionally - in fact, it should be a neutral point.

[Melchett01]

As I said, I'm not at all against sports & AT; in fact the way things are going, getting the troops out of the office for a week is often a god-send - stops everyone killing each other in work.

What does annoy me is this representing your country lark and all the freebies that seem to come along with it. If it were only a few weeks out here and there, then fine. But it isn't that. It's often preferential postings to RAF Sleepy Hollow as Stn Cdr's dog walker or totally written off for a tour. And when they've finished indulging their passion for a couple of years, it's back to work with a glowing reputation and a report that puts them up there with God's slightly better little brother and pushing for promotion and all the accolades the AOC can muster as they live off their tea tray antics for the next 3 tours.

Airborne ARtist, IIRC, said female Flt Lt is a point in question; I believe she was given a non-effective posting, taken out of her branch and when she finally got back and had to do some work, didn't like it and banged out. Now that's what really grips!

[Blodwyn Pig]

Is Rory Underwood not in any more then?:}

i remember strapping him in for his first fast jet solo.

[sooms]

Simple Solution-

If you want time off for sport- get your own sports insurance and put leave in!

We are embracing all these 'best practices' i.e LEAN from civvy street- Do any civvy companies give their workforce time off for sport? If my wife asked her boss for two weeks off (paid) to play sport and keep her full holiday entitlement he'd fall off his chair laughing just before giving her the sack.

Do you really think we gain any recruits through the PR generated by our sportsmen? I wonder if anyone replied to the question 'Why do you want to join the RAF?' with the reply 'Because Rory Underwood's in the RAF'

One person in 40,000 doesn't sound much but its not one it's hundreds of man hours every week lost in this way. Time to get into the 21st century.
Noticed in one of the RAF Mags a while back a report on the RAF Police Golf Society's Tour of the USA, granted these guys probably paid for some of it from their own money- but in the service interest? Sailing expeditions to the Caribbean? etc...
I can't even get time off work to do my Pre-Gulf Heat Acclimatisation Training.

Helmet and ECBA on......

[Impiger]

Strikes me that those in the :ok: camp have got a balanced view of these issues and those in the :* team are consumed with jealousy or at least indignation.

Personally I don't believe anybody joins because their sporting hero is in but ... and it is a big but positive PR is worth its weight in gold and just being in the team portrays the Service as being an organisation that values excellence and hence worth joining. Importantly it also works on the mums and dads who are likely to push their nearest and dearest our way. A bit like corporate sponsorship - the value to the organisation is unquantifiable but if you stop you know it's going to work against you somehow.

[The Helpful Stacker]

I'm lucky enough to see this argument from both side.

I occasionally partake in representative competitive sports for the RAF but can see how the fat bloaters in the RAF who can't seem to lift their own bodyweight let alone do anything sweat inducing (and I don't mean contemplating a salad instead of chips) could be annoyed by someone who can actually pass the p!ss easy RAF AFT getting time away from the workplace to pursue an outside interest.

Of course there's also the F6000 to consider. As someone who doesn't like to shout about any charity work I do or take up pointless secondary duties such as deputy to the deputy SIF rep I need to do something to level the playing field and if it can be something I enjoy doing why the hell not.

Perhaps rather than moaning about folk who do sports getting promoted for their sporting prowess perhaps you should be moaning about a promotion system that seems to promote on everything but an ability to do the job one is paid to do.

[[email protected]]

Perhaps rather than moaning about folk who do sports getting promoted for their sporting prowess perhaps you should be moaning about a promotion system that seems to promote on everything but an ability to do the job one is paid to do.
Yep, like sportsmen/women?

[The Helpful Stacker]

Yep, like sportsmen/women?

And sitting in a bath of baked beans for 'charideee' or becoming deputy I/C the station flower pressing club, all superfluous to what you are paid to do but all are used within the assessment process.

[Strictly Jungly]

I think this thread should be allied to the define fun thread. I remember when.......swing lantern.......representation of your unit at any sport was an acheivement. Service, Combined Service or National representation was highly respected so I can understand that perspective as it was all part of Service life which generated pride amonst other things ( I think automatic promotion has long gone). I have seen that progressively decline over the years and in the time of LEAN etc etc it is harder to find personnel to make up teams (a disgraceful situation in my opinion)

Being long in the tooth I would be biased towards supporting this type of representation, however, whilst we are strapped for manpower etc it may be hard to explain to someone on back to back deployed ops.
As for overseas sport tours, I am certain there will be a significant personal contribution, however, I would say grab it whilst you can............because that is surely one of the "fun" elements that are being continually undermined.

Naval Ski Championships??? Never made it myself but would have loved to!!!

Off to the gym now though!

Regards,
SJ

[Ad astra per aspera]

In full agreement with Stacker RE promotion. More generally on AT though it is the apathy toward partaking that kills off a good exped - "Sod it, what a waste of drinking time/Beer money" or "What's the point of applying, I'm not a mountaineer/sailor/parachutist ect, I'll never get a place". If two weeks of adventure training helps the cohesion of a station & lifts morale then why not?

All expeds SHOULD be better advertised, not just put on orders between lists of innoculations and the duties list. By bringing new blood into AT & encouraging/informing people of places for novices some persuits would lose their elitest label.

Quiet often the reason AT isn't taken up is because there is no-one with the ability to organise the trip - if there IS someone in the unit with the skills/qualifications then they should be encouraged to come up with the goods but it might help if you offer to do some donkeywork for them!

Get involved, see the benefits for yourself & take a little pride in those around you, on your station, in your squadron, who can do great things!

[Data-Lynx]

With Strictly Jungly on Service representation and the pride of participation. A JSU near London is about to host a Boxing Show in the Gym between a RN team (heavily sprinkled with Royal Marines) and the Metropolitan Police Force. A friendly event with lots of fair play - of course.

[Postman Plod]

Regarding the civvy worlds attitude to such things, if you are of an ability to represent your country, most civvy companies would jump at the chance of a little free PR, and may even stretch to sponsorship or financial assistance on top of providing additional leave. Its not like you're talking about every employee in your company, and it shows you take pride in, and care of, your people - in and out of work!

How the average employee is treated is by the by, its all to do with perception! Equally though, the average civvy company still expects you to do your job....

[johnfairr]

Back in the mid-70s I was holding at a non-flying station in West London where the rugby was quite good. I was lucky enough to play for the Station and RAF Support Command. Outside me was a Cpl PTI who was really quite useful and not slow, but who couldn't pass his Sergeants Exams for love nor money. All this and playing for a well known London Club, one of the Home nations and also the British Lions. Don't think the system works all the time.:confused: :confused:
jf

[Strictly Jungly]

Back in the mid-70s I was holding at a non-flying station in West London where the rugby was quite good. I was lucky enough to play for the Station and RAF Support Command. Outside me was a Cpl PTI who was really quite useful and not slow, but who couldn't pass his Sergeants Exams for love nor money. All this and playing for a well known London Club, one of the Home nations and also the British Lions. Don't think the system works all the time.:confused: :confused:
jf


The clue in all of that was......."a Cpl PTI"!!!"

Generally though, esp. in those halcyon days if you excelled in sport then it was considered advantageous in the promotion stakes, however, as you have pointed out there were exceptions.

Flower pressing??? How I remember particular "wives" involved in this pastime (purely out of self interest I'm sure). The flower gang was led by the Stn Cdr's wife...very alien to us in the dark blue!!! Is it still alive and well at RAF L-O-O????

Back on thread.........Sport for all I say......

[lightningmate]

To answer the question above ref Rory Underwood - he retired from the RAF several years ago.

lm

[Trumpet_trousers]

Flower pressing??? How I remember particular "wives" involved in this pastime (purely out of self interest I'm sure). The flower gang was led by the Stn Cdr's wife
I wonder how long it will be in these PC times before this activity is available to 'significant others' and not just wives? Imagine the sight of a Stn Cdr's bald headed, goateed, earringed, 16 stone 'other' leading the girls in their pastime, or even hosting a coffee morning or two....:E

[Cambridge Crash]

I was very fortunate to be selected during Op Granby to represent the RAF, and then the country, at a posh sport. A number of other light-blue were similarly selected and at a PR bash in Chelsea, CAS (the much denigrated Sir Peter Harding) addressed a large, primarily civilian, audience where he stressed the role of leadership and team-playing that sport and adventurous activities engendered. It was clear he was conscious of criticisms that could be levelled, ie allowing personnel off for a year 'when there was a war on' so he said 'if you want to see what the demands of leadership in the RAF are, look at our guys over Iraq', or words to that effect. This led to a round of rigorous head-nodding and then spontaneous clapping from the assembled masses, many from the otherwise cynical IT industry.

I had only just transferred to the RAF, and under the old system I was manpower non-effective during my year out. Nonetheless, for many years later I was tarred with the sobriquiet of 'Oh, that's that chap who spends all his time playing sport' (admittedly admin salad-dodgers). Sadly it didn't help in the promotion stakes but I took comfort from the fact that I had represented my Service and my country in a tough and demanding sport. What appology is needed?

[Melchett01]

I occasionally partake in representative competitive sports for the RAF but can see how the fat bloaters in the RAF who can't seem to lift their own bodyweight let alone do anything sweat inducing (and I don't mean contemplating a salad instead of chips) could be annoyed by someone who can actually pass the p!ss easy RAF AFT getting time away from the workplace to pursue an outside interest

And you make my point for me - TVM.

Yes, you're right the AFT is a doddle, even after numerous bits of lower limb surgery. The point I'm making Stacker is that if you want to get to a representative level at sport, thats fine. But why should everyone else have to cover all your duties for months on end and occassionally for the entire gapped tour whilst you swan off to indulge a personal interest? I am in the process of working towards my ski instructor ticks, haven't needed to ask for a few months off to do it though - and that's what grips my sh*t when we are so massively overstretched.

But making an assumption here from your name that you are indeed from our blanket stacking bretheren, then you bring me nicely on to the other bug bear. Hands up anyone that has seen someone in RAF Active for the past few months, telling the world about their exped to South African golf courses or that 'exped' to California that just happens to take in Hollywood and the wine growing areas, that is actually in an operational branch and on an operational unit/sqn. Bet you'd be hard pushed to find more than a couple, if any. It's always the scribblies, stackers and malingers!

And yes HS, I'm sure that does count as a bite, but you know I'm right :E

[The Helpful Stacker]

Well I must say that was indeed a fine bite.

As for you comment on what other units do and the trade background composition of their AT expeds I can't really say, all I can use is my personal experience.

Having served on 'the wing' for 6 years I can say yes, it riled me when I managed to grab a quick scan of one of the RAF propaganda mags and saw folk sipping wine in the south of France etc but I can't say I ever noticed a huge proportion of those being from 'blunty' backgrounds. In fact I never really noticed any trades mentioned, unless it was an individual who was being reported on.

[Legalapproach]

I am a director of the British Bobsleigh Association and have a close connection with the British Team. Those servicemen and women who compete for GB are by no means swanning off to enjoy their favourite sports. They are all dedicated athletes who have secured their places on merit and performance putting a huge effort into their training very often at considerable personal cost. External funding is limited and I know of a number who have self financed not only large parts of their training but also elements of their competing. In these days of shrinking armed forces such activities probably hinder rather than increase career/promotion chances. Yet the armed forces do benefit from a degree of very positive publicity and from the promotion of adventure training activities.

Anyone who fancies swanning around in preparation for the 2010 Winter games should contact Major Helen Carter of the Army Bobsleigh Association and get themselves on this years Army Ice Camp (Training for bobsleigh, skeleton and luge).:}

[FJJP]

Don't start slagging off Rory Underwood. For a start, at IOT, he was immediately put under pressure that he WOULD be playing for England, whatever the circumstances during his training. That hurt his progress.

Then when he hit the Sqn [360], he was away for periods training or playing. However, when he got back strapped into the jet, he flew hard and long and made the same hours as everyone else.

I admired the bloke for his dedication to both his country team and the Sqn.

[lightningmate]

FJJP,

Three posts above refer to Rory - I interpret no 'slagging' content whatsoever!

I concur your comments ref Rory's time on 360.

lm

[Mmmmnice]

Of course we should support anyone who wants to participate in sport at any level. It's fairly rare to see certain sectors of the RAf doing any kind of sport (no names no PD etc - but they tend to sit in the front of the flying things) - and then they wonder what will happen if they are plucked from their comfy drivers seat and deposited in the middle of a battle field - bit late to go on a fitness drive to make the dash to safety a bit easier.
Given the frequent winges about how tedious day-to-day life is I would have thought that the opportunity for a bit of legitimate skiving would be quite appealing. Obviously the couch-potato lobby is holding sway - led by those who drive from the 400 yds from the patch/mess on a daily basis.........time to end rant

[SirPeterHardingsLovechild]

What annoys me is when a section head says that he cannot afford to release Bloggs for sport/AT, then the section head gets called into the Bosses office to be informed that he will release him. Happens all the time.
Make 'em remuster as PTI's. Just a thought.

[Legalapproach]

Army Ice camp video:

http://www.army.mod.uk/linked_files/landmedia/videoclips/Novices_2.wmv

[Onan the Clumsy]

Someone said civvy street wouldn't support their employees taknig time for the Olympics. Back in 2004, Home Depot (http://www.homedepot.com/prel80/HDUS/EN_US/diy_main/pg_diy.jsp?CNTTYPE=PROD_META&CNTKEY=misc%2fsearchResults.jsp&BV_SessionID=@@@@2042190394.1138649344@@@@&BV_EngineID=ccfgaddgljekheicgelceffdfgidgll.0&MID=9876) had a campaign that did just this. I think they even made special part time jobs for people who needed time to train.

I have no opinions on the matter one way or the other, though my next door neighbour won a gold once. Very nice bloke too, which to me is a hundred times more important.

[threepointonefour]

It was clear he was conscious of criticisms that could be levelled, ie allowing personnel off for a year 'when there was a war on' so he said 'if you want to see what the demands of leadership in the RAF are, look at our guys over Iraq', or words to that effect.


I have to agree with the 'critics on this one ... it's totally pointless developing the leadership skills of 'sportsmen' who are then unavailable when those leadership skills are in demand - ie, in time of war ... which (for some needs re-stating) is actually part of the job.

I for one get fairly annoyed at the annual mass exodus to the "Ski Champs" ... ON DUTY ?? How does that work? DUTY??

[Melchett01]

Obviously the couch-potato lobby is holding sway - led by those who drive from the 400 yds from the patch/mess on a daily basis.........time to end rant

Not at all. If you had read my earlier post, I said I was all for people getting away for AT/sport and that it was a good way of stopping half the sqn killing each other before 10am on a Monday morning. What I just don't see why when we are massively overstretched and on permanent ops, and are likely to be so for the next few years, we are letting people slope off to go and spend 3 years training to be Britain's next macramy champion.

I can just see it now: Gulf War 3, the road to Tehran and I'm stuck on ops with someone that hasn't got a clue which is the right end of a rifle - but he takes a mean corner kick and can complete the Cresta Run in record breaking time. Fat lot of good that will do us.

There is a distinction between getting away for AT/sport/general phys and kicking the arse out of it for a tour when we are as busy as we are. Shame some people can't see that - I'd love to be a fly on the wall when they are working on ops with said Cresta Run expert when it all goes horribly wrong!

[Cambridge Crash]

3.14: I agree that the chances of encountering AQ or even a det of Iraqi RG in the middle of the Channel (oops! revealed the sport) was remote, however the skills that one acquires in a demanding environment can only serve to those who serve.

Admittedly, my pasttime as a yachtsman was about the last thing that went through my mind when I had a nasty encounter with Boskovski's Lions in FYROM in 1999 or with dissident KLA members several months later. However, having crewed on vessels in mountainous seas under the most testing physical and mental conditions I felt better prepared than if had simply conducted three 'leads' involving the construction of pine pole contraptions in order to cross 'shark infested custard'.

CC

[Widger]

I have been reading this thread with a wry smile on my face. A certain person who has been mentioned was given a hell of a lot of time off work. So was her coach! Months and Months to be more precise.
Both individuals did not have a good word to say about their respective services, despite being given loads of support and backing both by the Service and their immediate bosses. They expected to be given it all on a plate with nothing in return.
Now I agree that it is good PR and sport at this high level should be encouraged but it demands a bit of loyalty in return!

[Zoom]

I represented the RAF a few times at a minor sport and it was difficult to get time off for training or competing. We trained after work and competed at the weekends, like most other RAF sportsmen did at the time. On one occasion I was part of a team that made an assault on a particular long distance record, the success of which would depend very much on the weather conditions, but we had to select the date of the attempt about 6 months in advance - and on a weekend, of course. On the due date the weather conditions were the exact opposite of what we required and we failed in our attempt by a massive margin. If we had had the luxury of being able to pick and choose at short notice we would likely have succeeded. But that is my only gripe; for the rest of the time the balance was about right for me, especially as I enjoyed my primary job so much that I wouldn't have wanted to take a year out for any sport at any level.