Commercial & Atpl Theory Subjects

[Valdiviano]

Number one son in Melbourne (closer to Moorabbin than Essendon) wants to do theory subjects part time/full time.
Any info, suggestions appreciated.
I have been out of it for too long to know or help.

[C152R]

Pity your son is not in Sydney. If he were, I would recommend the NSW TAFE in the city. The course is 18 months to 2 years taught by professionals who are both pilots and academics. They have been teaching theory for more than 30 years and they have some connection with either Sydney University or the University Of NSW. One of which has its own flying school.

You will also find that the time he has spent at the TAFE will get him credits, if at some time later he wants to convert his Advanced Diploma to a Degree.

There is also a TAFE college based at Parafield (Adelaide), the course is run BY the TAFE I think its called Regency TAFE do an internet search.

Swinburne Uni in Melbourne runs a very good course, the course content can be viewed on the net. However the CPL & ATPL theory is out sourced.

[rmcdonal]

You cant beat AFT for the full time ATPL course, and his site recomends Bob Tait for CPL.
Check it out
AFT (http://www.aft.com.au/afthome.htm)
Got me through my ATPLs first time :ok:
The ATPL part is a 6 week course on the Sunshine Coast, they can organise a place to stay while your there. You well sit 4 of the subjects and If you fail any of them then you can go back and sit the course again for FREE! :ok:
The last three subjects are distance Ed (Met, Airlaw, HP)

[Lasiorhinus]

You cant beat Lionel Taylor, at Peter Bini's at Moorabbin.
Full time, Part time, PPL, CPL, ATPL, IREX, you name it, he knows his stuff in more detail than anyone I've ever heard of!

[pistol_pete]

I'll second Lionel Taylor, his course is fantastic and he will get your son through.

[Bell Man]

AFT are the best,even for a dumb :confused: one like myself. I'm currently converting over to my R/W CPL and their notes are worth every cent. I would also suggest using there practice exams,on their web site prior to sitting the actual exams.

I would also recommend Lionel Taylor,if you were in Melbourne. I done my ATPL sudjects back in the early 90's with him,and got through first go.

Anyone know if Allan Watson is still doing theory in Melbourne ? He is another good theory instructor.

:ok:

[Valdiviano]

Thank you all

[pilotezulu]

Pity your son is not in Sydney. If he were, I would recommend the NSW TAFE in the city. The course is 18 months to 2 years taught by professionals who are both pilots and academics. They have been teaching theory for more than 30 years and they have some connection with either Sydney University or the University Of NSW. One of which has its own flying school.

C152R,

Just wondering what TAFE is? Is it better to go through 'TAFE' rather than going to a full time flying school? You did mention one connection they may have with a Uni and/or one having their own flying school. I'm planning to move to Oz soon... and looking for a course that would last me about 2 years... so I can ensure I get all the subjects in the first attempts. Please PM if you have any more info..... and if any of you guys out there have any thoughts... I'd be glad to hear something.

Cheers,

pilotezulu

[AusFlygal]

I thought I would add my two cents also. I too can highly recommend the courses run by Lionel Taylor at Peter Bini Advanced Flight Training. I was led to believe that the CPL syllabus was extremely difficult and was put off for quite a while until I came across his courses. I got through it, thoroughly enjoyed it and made many friends at the same time. My exam resuIts were very pleasing also. If you want it, he will get you through it. He's been doing these courses for many years and has an excellent reputation. :)

Whatever you do - avoid the computer based theory courses like the plague. Some schools are flogging them and they are making a killing on them by selling the product to you at twice what they get them from the licensee - I wasted $3000 for the "professional" package. :*

[charlie uniform mike]

hey man

just a suggestion u don't have to take it.
but save yourself some money buy the books and teach yourself.
from my experience u usually know more than the people teaching
u anyway.if u can just get taught ATPL flight planning and maybe systems. everything else is fairly self expanatory
i realise some people prefer courses. to motivate them to study and make it easier for themselves. which it will do but self teaching is a far cheaper option if u have the work ethic.

[AusFlygal]

Sorry "Charlie" but I strongly disagree with you there. There would be very very few people who could pass ALL the exams FIRST TIME simply by self-studying.

I'd be very interested to know what marks they are getting for their exams - most likely they would be scraping in just over the 70% pass mark. Doing theory in the classroom certainly increases your depth of knowledge about each of the subjects and shows that your are serious about aviation, rather learning just enough to get you by.

[Di_Vosh]

You can definately self-study all your CPL theory subjects and average between 80 - 95%!

I did that a couple of years ago using Bob Tait books, which were excellent! Did the same for IREX using Bob Tait. :ok:

ATPL subjects are harder, but I've known at least three people who've self-studied ATPL and passed them as well.

Sadly, for DIVOSH, I don't have time, so I've self studied ATPL human factors and MET (over 80% for both) but will go up to AFT later on this year for the harder ones, and do Law when I get back.

Self study may not be for you, but is definately an option!

Cheers,

DIVOSH!

[MBA747]

Pilotezulu TAFE is one level above high school graduation, not the same level as a university. However with a TAFE Diploma you can get a year off a University degree. The NSW TAFE is a top institution read my earlier posting.

Its simple really how much can you learn. If you just want to pass do a flash course in CPL in 6 to 8 weeks and yes you will pass,because nearly all the CASA questions are known. Its multi choice and nearly all the questions you will get,you would have seen on the course.

The TAFE course is 18 to 24 months long. Do you want to be a pilot or a driver?? More & more airlines are wanting a degree. Your choice.

[404 Titan]

MBA747

Its simple really how much can you learn. If you just want to pass do a flash course in CPL in 6 to 8 weeks and yes you will pass,because nearly all the CASA questions are known. Its multi choice and nearly all the questions you will get,you would have seen on the course. The TAFE course is 18 to 24 months long. Do you want to be a pilot or a driver??
Going by your profile you are very new to this industry. Let me tell you something about CASA exams. At the professional level they have almost no relevance to the job at hand. They are an English exam and to be frank a poor one at that. My advice to people wanting to get a CPL or higher, do the PPL subjects by self study. Do the CPL subjects in a classroom environment whether that is TAFE or a private institution or by correspondence and do the ATPL subjects at one of the private institutions listed in this thread. At the end of the day the profession of a pilot is learnt in the practical teaching aspect and polished and refined once you are working in the industry.

More & more airlines are wanting a degree.
This is complete BS. There are no airlines in this part of the world that want or require degrees. They require you to have completed year 12 maths, physics and English. That’s all. If you have a degree that is great but it makes zip difference to whether you get the job.

[C152R]

Titan404 your one of the old school. Did you get around to getting year 12? You didn't need that in your day. Asia is following the rest, US & most of Europe want degrees have a look at Wizz Air Hungary requirements, Check out Bangkok Air requires " Bachelor Degree". Nearly all SIA cadets have degrees mainly in engineering. Oh! by the way how are your Trent700's going in freezing fog conditions or are you having to do the manual engine de-icing. Those 340's cruising at Mach82, to slow.

The old uneducated pilot is over.

[404 Titan]

C152R

I suggest you read my profile before saying I’m “Old School and uneducated”. It really makes you look silly. I have had a lot more to do with pilot recruitment than you realise. For every airline that you name that requires it, I can name you ten that don’t, namely CX, KA, SQ, QF, NZ, EK, BA to name just a few. I will admit a lot of the cadets we employ at CX have degrees but it isn’t a requirement and most of the direct entry pilots don’t have degrees. This very same argument was going around 20 years ago when I started learning to fly. Nothing has changed since except salaries have gone south in the mean time. QF has the same requirements as they did 20 years ago. CX requirements have dropped in that time. 20 years ago unless you had a military background it was almost impossible to get in here. Mind you they didn’t have S/O’s back then and cadets weren’t employed. If some airlines want degrees, good luck to them. With the current expansion of many airlines in the region, most are finding it difficult to attract quality candidates. Go and have a close look at what is happening in China and India and you will see what direction pilot recruitment is going. If you want to believe what some flying school or university lecturer has said fine. But with all due respect they and you don’t know what you are talking about. :yuk:

[Di_Vosh]

You seem pretty passionate about the requirement to have a degree for airline flying.

Maybe I'm getting a little "old school" myself. What advantage does a "Bachelor degree" give? (Serious question)


DIVOSH!

[MBA747]

404 Titan you miss the point about being educated. It's guys like you holding on to the old ideas that are promoting the idea that all you need is year12. Yes in Aus & countries where guys like you do the recruiting that will be the case but once the graduates replace you , do you think they will accept a sub standard education for the job.

It's simple really all things being equal don't tell me you will recruit a year12 graduate than a degree holder, if you do you should be replaced.

If you really want to get down to bare facts about what education does a pilot really need? Basically all he needs Is a Year 9 education he needs to know basic Trig (Trignometry) ie. Sine, Cos, Tan & Sec, for Physics he needs to know Newtons First & Third law of motion. In Oz its not a problem to pass the CPL/ATPL exams, just get the sample exam papers which are readily available and that will ensure passing the exam.

The CPL exams are a joke. ATPL Flight Planning is a bit more challenging.
I know of 2 graduates self studied & passed the lot, mind you one failed Flt Planning the first time he was over confident. By the way how is it you don't know that most flying schools prefer to teach their students in preference to sending them to a tertiary college. Its not in their interests to promote higher education and they don't. I guess with FMGS & ECAM on board you dont't need much brain power. By the way senior QANTAS management pilots are being encouraged to do University courses in business.

[404 Titan]

MBA747

No I haven’t missed the point. By the way I’m not old school. I’ve still got 22 odd years before I have to retire. I really find it a pain in the a**e that some of the younger generation and pilots who have been in this industry for five seconds think they know everything about it. I will let you in on a little secret sunshine, you don’t. There are powers that be above me that are driving down the job description of an airline pilot. Those powers are at board level of most airlines. They are placing immense pressure on management in Ops departments and recruitment departments to recruit pilots on never ending lowering conditions. The only way they can do this is by lowering the entry requirements. Fact, nine out ten resumes we have on file are from pilots without degrees. They meet all our requirements with regard to experience and education. What do you think would happen to pilot wages and conditions if all of a sudden we and the industry said 9/10 of those on file are now no longer suitable for employment simply because they don’t have degrees? The reality is the percentage of pilots with degrees hasn’t significantly changed over the last 20 years and isn’t going to change much in the future if the current generation of pilots coming through is anything to go by. If every pilot had a degree that would be a different story but they don’t. The reality is you don’t need a degree to do this job and the board members and upper level management know this and are using it to their advantage to drive conditions down. If you think it is the recruiters that are setting the minimum entry requirements then you have a lot to learn about this industry. Accountants run airlines and will continue to drive cost and conditions down. They are the facts and you are just going to have live with it unfortunately.:yuk:

[Di_Vosh]

Still waiting for my answer on why a degree is important to being a pilot.

MBA747, you're also passionate about having a degree to fly, but then you contradict yourelf throughout in your post with:

If you really want to get down to bare facts about what education does a pilot really need? Basically all he needs Is a Year 9 education he needs to know basic Trig (Trignometry) ie. Sine, Cos, Tan & Sec, for Physics he needs to know Newtons First & Third law of motion.

So you're saying that you don't need a degree?

Your last point was

By the way senior QANTAS management pilots are being encouraged to do University courses in business.

Can you please explain how a business course aids in flying, and why it would be important while selecting a candidate for your airline?

Another point you've made makes me wonder whether you've ever recruited anybody, in any industry?

It's simple really all things being equal don't tell me you will recruit a year12 graduate than a degree holder, if you do you should be replaced.

I've not recruited any pilots, but I've recruited in several other industries. I've never had the situation you've described.

DIVOSH!

[C152R]

Di_Vosh if your following this thread closely 404Titan is missing the point, in fact I would say slow getting to the point. I referred to Trent700's & Mach82 by referring to these I know what a/c he flies,he didn't pick it up (Airbus).

Ok back to the subject, a degree gives one flexibility. ie. if you loose your licence you have a backup, its another means of income while your having to put up with the crap when first starting.

Its only a matter of time that what is required in other parts of the world will be required in Oz & Asia. Asia is moving quicker to that realisation than we are. Once the graduates move in they will employ fellow graduates that would be nomal. Airlines want well rounded individuals. 404Titan & his ilk feel degrees are unnecessary because probably they don't have them. You will find that most degree knockers don't have degrees themselves. What is really sad is that young starry eyed individuals are given the impression its not difficult to be a pilot and after a few years of hard work the airlines will beckon & the money will roll in. That is not so. For every one that makes it a hundred wont. I would recommend a degree in Finance, Accounting or Economics, with Financial Planning exploding you will always get a job in that or a related field and finally if your at your wits end you can always become a teacher. You have options, in addition if you get into an airline & you have a degree you have a better chance of getting into management, remember the bean counters have a lot of say in how an airline is run.

[404 Titan]

Di_Vosh
I've not recruited any pilots, but I've recruited in several other industries. I've never had the situation you've described.I have and when I put in a recommendation to the review board, education was only part of the decision process. At the end of the day they look at a number of things and if the person with only year 12 education is more suitable than someone with a degree then so be it, they get the job.

C152R
Di_Vosh if your following this thread closely 404Titan is missing the point, in fact I would say slow getting to the point. I referred to Trent700's & Mach82 by referring to these I know what a/c he flies,he didn't pick it up (Airbus).
I’m not missing the point at all. I saw what you wrote. Didn’t answer your question because it wasn’t relevant and A340 don’t have Trents. If you want to discuss the A330 and the Trent 700's I will but lets start another thread shall we.

You really don’t get it do you. Market forces are driving entry requirement down, not recruiters. Almost all the airlines in Europe, Asia, and Middle East don’t require and have no plans on requiring a degree. I would really like you to tell all of us which major airlines in these areas are now requiring degrees? We are finding it difficult enough now getting enough experienced pilots let alone making it even more difficult or if not impossible by putting up some artificial screening process requiring all pilots to have degrees. You really need to have a reality check because you are delusional my friend. By the way I do have a degree but it made f**k all difference when I was recruited, infact I don’t think I even told them about it because it was irrelevant.
Once the graduates move in they will employ fellow graduates that would be nomal.
Bulls**t. Re-read my previous post about who sets what in airlines. Again you are showing your told ignorance for how airlines are run.

[C152R]

404Titan Aus. universities are producing about 180 pilot graduates a year & have been for the last 4 years. University of London are also running degree courses ending with a JAR frozen ATPL.I can go on & on, it takes little initiative to find the nos coming out of uni .You have been in the Fragrant Harbour too long.

You say 9 out of 10 applicants are non degree holders I believe you. Thats because it was guys like you doing the recruiting once the number of graduates increase, the non grads are limited. Its only a matter of time.

Its a question of supply & demand once the number of graduates increase which is happening ,the airline will require graduates with the same working conditions.
Di_Vosh we are talking airlines not PA31s. It appears you came to the industry late, the fact that you have a job is enough.

[C152R]

Titan I didnt say the 340 was Trent powered. What I did refer to was Trents & Mach82. Didn't you get the dig about Trents & Manual Deicing in Freezing Fog. The Mach82 refers to the 5 APU powered 340. those 340s on the NOPAC routes are a pain in the butt. I would have expected a graduate to differentiate between the two.

[rmcdonal]

Valdiviano, If your still keeping up with the crap that these children :rolleyes: are spinning then good on you (unfortunately it just shows what kind of profession your son wants in on).
Back to the original Q. I would suggest doing the CPL by distance ED, but do ATPL's in a class room. The reasoning for this is that:
a) CPL exams are easy compared to some of the ATPL ones.
b) It costs about $140 per exam, if you fail you have to pay it again, so you want to get it taught right the first time.
c) At an ATPL theory school your son? is going to meet a lot of people from different fields of the aviation world and with different experience to share. By making friends he maybe able to score himself that elusive first job :ok: or at least get some contacts in the industry. The best schools are the ones that other people hear you about, otherwise you wouldn't hear about them.
Good luck
:E :E :E :E :E

[Di_Vosh]

Sorry about the thread creep (it's been known to happen here). :ugh:

This argument has been around for over 20 years now, and not just in aviation, but in many other industries.

I agree that having a secondary skill is a good idea when starting out in aviation. However, that doesn't mean that you've got to go to uni to get it. If I were to lose my licence, I'd be falling back on my IT skills, and not what I studied at Uni over 20 years ago (Genetics and Biochemistry - I've never studied I.T. at uni).

People like C152R (who according to his profile is a PPL and a student) seem to think that without a University degree you're going to be discriminated against in an employment application.

But, quotes like

Once the graduates move in they will employ fellow graduates that would be nomal.

that tell me that you've not worked in many professional workplaces. Just how many airlines have you worked for to get such an opinion? And how many interview boards have you been a part of?

I've interviewed 30 people and employed 5 in the past 12 months (not in aviation, but in I.T.) and NOT ONE employment offer was made due to level of education. And in no case were any of the applicants similar enough in maturity, character or temperament that their differing education made any difference.

DIVOSH!

P.S.

Di_Vosh we are talking airlines not PA31s. It appears you came to the industry late, the fact that you have a job is enough.

Thank you for reading my profile and your (fairly condescending) quote re: my job. But I don't intend to fly PA31's forever ;)

[solocmv]

I contacted N.S.W. Tafe. spoke to the head teacher, he said the CPL course / evening. would not be offered this year, and perhaps more alarmingly the full-time was very dependant on enrollements. Last year he had barely enough students for the course to be continued. A rather sad indictment on the industry. Also makes it hard if you have a full-time job.

[C152R]

solocmv did you contact the NSW TAFE based in the city? if it does stop the Advanced Diploma it is a sad reflection of the industry. Unfortunately we are following the US system with theory content so one doesen't need to do a 18 month course when you can pass the CPL exams in 6 weeks.

All the exam questions are out there. We might as well be given a list of all the questions offically by CASA as they do in the US. Perhaps then we can learn the questions and answers and make it a 4 week course.

The quicker they adopt the JAR course the better for all of us.

[404 Titan]

solocmv

Don’t get too concerned about TAFE. If they don’t offer the courses this year just do one of the home study courses that have been mentioned on this thread. I used NSW TAFE back in the mid eighties only because the exams at the time were written (i.e. not multi choice) and none of the self teach courses were really any good.

rmcdonal

I apologies for going off topic as well but it gets my back up when some want to preach garbage to those that don’t really know.

C152R
universities are producing about 180 pilot graduates a year & have been for the last 4 years. University of London are also running degree courses ending with a JAR frozen ATPL.I can go on & on, it takes little initiative to find the nos coming out of uni .
Yeah I know that. So what? All this means is in years to come seven or eight out of ten applicants won’t have degrees. Even if you were producing 50% of all pilots that sent resumes to us (we have about 20000 on file at any one time) we still wouldn’t rule out those that didn’t have degrees. We would be shooting ourselves in the foot doing that. Current airline management will continue to cast the net far and wide for new pilots in order to keep pressure on wages and conditions because this is what the bean counters who run the airlines are demanding.

You say 9 out of 10 applicants are non degree holders I believe you. Thats because it was guys like you doing the recruiting once the number of graduates increase, the non grads are limited. Its only a matter of time.
Yeah sure we do the recruiting but as I have said we don’t set the minimum requirements for new pilots. Decisions like this are made much higher up the totem pole, all by people who hold various university degrees I might add. Pilots at management level sometimes have some sought of degree granted but very very few get above flight ops level and therefore don’t get to make these decisions.

Its a question of supply & demand
I agree with that.

once the number of graduates increase which is happening ,the airline will require graduates with the same working conditions.
No they won’t. Where have you been? The bean counters that run most airlines won’t be happy until the wages and conditions of pilots are a pittance. Why do you think the conditions would be the same as today for pilots in the future? Recent history tells us otherwise I’m afraid. Isn’t this one of the reasons you gave aviation away, the wage you were expecting wasn't forthcoming. Or are you doing your ATPL subjects?

Didn't you get the dig about Trents & Manual Deicing in Freezing Fog.
Yes I did but freezing fog on the ground is hardly ever encountered and even if it was, it is only a problem if the taxi time in plus out is greater than 45 minutes on the Trent powered A330 and 60 minutes on the A340-600. Most combined taxi times wouldn’t be more than 30 minutes.

The Mach82 refers to the 5 APU powered 340. those 340s on the NOPAC routes are a pain in the butt.
So you fly C152’s across the North Pacific now do you? The A343, A346 and A330 all cruise at about .82 Mach depending on the situation for a reason. They are most efficient at this speed. If a B744 or a high flying C152 is being held up because of us I’m sorry, not much we can do about it except change levels when we can. If airlines were buying aircraft based on speed then Boeing would have launched the Sonic Cruiser but they didn’t. They want aircraft that are efficient like the A330 and B777. Speed isn’t the name of the game I’m afraid, efficiency is.


PS: C152R, if you want to discuss this anymore I suggest we start a new thread. You and I have hijacked this one enough. Back to the original question. Sorry people. :uhoh: :O :ok:

[pilotezulu]

hmm... hope i didn't spark something with the TAFE question, but interesting debate chaps.

i see that there are pros and cons to having and not having a university degree. i got me a bachelors of science degree in electrical engineering in the US about 2 years ago, been working in the industry since then, and turning 23 soon. think i'll have to get me a masters degree soon at this rate... any ups for people with an engineering degree and a masters in aviation management? :E

though most times i wish i started my aviation career back after high school....good luck to y'all.

cheers.