CASA medical fee hike

[deckchair]

I received the following rhetoric from CASA in response to my protest on the new medical fee hike.
I have added my opinion on a few of the points marked by ((((())))) - couldn't get font colour to change to make it easier!
Am I way off and on my own with my responses? Keen to know.
It reads:
Dear xxxxx
From 1 January 2006, a suite of new and increased charges apply to Civil Aviation Safety Authority (CASA) regulatory services, with many charged at hourly rate to reflect the work required of CASA.
The change in fees follows the Australian Government’s decision on funding levels for CASA as part of a Long Term Funding Strategy (LTFS) that aims to deliver sustainable funding arrangements and certainty for both the aviation safety regulator and industry. Even after the new charges take effect, direct cost recovery will only contribute a small share of CASA’s total income – from around 5 per cent in 2004-05 to nine per cent this financial year and to around sixteen per cent in 2008-09. Fee income is to gradually rise from $5 million in 2004-05 to $10.5 million in 2005-06 and eventually to $20 million in 2008-09, being partially offset by a $5 million fall in fuel excise in 2008-09.
CASA’s cost recovery is designed to partially or fully recover the costs of providing consumer based services and activities as opposed to a flat tax or levy which are set independently of the cost of provision. Some of the guiding principles include only implementing cost recovery when it is cost effective to do so and ensuring that charges only relate to the costs of providing the services, rather than indirect costs such as policy functions.
One of the new fees is for medical certification. There is a fixed fee of $130 for the processing and consideration of an application for the issue or renewal of a medical certificate. This figure represents an average of an hour's work by CASA on this task, and as for the CASA hourly rate, includes all overheads associated with the provision of an hour's labour by CASA.
(((((The cost for my medical was $90. So it takes longer to review medical results than it does to conduct the medical itself, or you consider your staff can justify charging more per hour than my GP? I’d love to know their credentials. Are your staff Specialists?)))))
In many cases, the assessment of a medical certificate application and the production of the certificate for an applicant who meets the medical standard will take less than an hour. However, there is a reasonable proportion of applicants for medical certificates who do not meet the medical standard and need case management. These harder cases take considerably longer than an hour to deal with, and consequently increase the amount of time taken by CASA to assess medical certificate applications when averaged over all medical certificates issued by CASA.
(((((So to work this out, based on roughly 33,000 pilots in Australia, medicals take you 33,000 hours to process on average, equaling 4,400 x 7.5hr days, equaling 880 working weeks, equaling over 18 years of work for one person to manage. Any chance you are over inflating the average processing time on this or do you have a production line of dedicated staff working night and day?))))))
In determining how much to charge for medical certificates, whether by a fixed fee or an hourly fee per application, in the interests of equity and consistent with its treatment of other individual licences and certificates, CASA decided on setting a fixed fee payable by all applicants, regardless of the complexity of an application. Also, a fixed fee is simple to apply for the applicant and CASA, which helps to minimise the administration costs. The alternative of charging an hourly rate would mean that applicants who do not meet the medical standard would be forced to pay fees considerably in excess of the $130 flat fee.
(((((So? And if I invest a lot of time and money keeping myself fit for flying why can’t I have the right to pay less than $130?)))))
Options are already being considered on how to streamline the processing and consideration of medical certificate applications. CASA will consult further with industry on its overall cost recovery initiative to ensure that the most appropriate and efficient mechanisms are adopted. The implementation of increased cost recovery will be reviewed in 2006-07. And of course CASA has an ongoing review of service delivery methods, operating costs and the way it undertakes its core functions, which aims to identify further efficiencies.
Details of CASA fees, and the consultation undertaken by CASA in developing those fees, can be found at http://www.casa.govau/corporat/fees/index.htm.
Yours sincerely
xxxxxxx
for
Geoff Kimber
Acting General Manager
Corporate Relations
23 January 2006

[rmcdonal]

Didn't we allready have a Thread on this topic?

[Horatio Leafblower]

G'day Deckchair

I can't help wondering how old you are - not that there is any immaturity reflected in your post but I wonder if you are simply too young and fit to have had a flash of your mortality yet.

Remember all those inane questions you answered "NO" in the questionnaire? Just think of all those things that might go wrong and require you, too, to be singled out for special consideration.

I had cardio thoracic surgery in 2004 to correct an aortic aneurism. This is not a fitness issue but the result of an obscure genetic abnormality and it was, ironically, picked up during my class 1 renewal. (Yes I am lucky to be here). I was (and still am) pretty fit and (following some spectacular surgery) I can once again enjoy a normal range of sports and recreational activities.

At 30 I was the youngest patient in the Cardiac ICU... that week, anyway.

To keep my Class 1 (and to feed my wife and family) I need to have a range of tests and screenings each year to ensure there are no recurrences. This has to be considereed by their specialists and yes, Dr Tak Sham is a fully qualified cardiologist I believe.

The $130 is a bit like medical insurance; you pay a bit more than you need in your youth, and hopefully you will get it back a bit later. I hate the fees too but at least some of us can deduct it from Tax.

Good luck mate

[Kelly Slater]

Horatio, how much of a part did CASA play in you getting your medical back? It would seem that you still have to satisfy your DAME in order to get a class 1 medical but I fail to see what part CASA have to play in it. I'm sure that you paid the cardiologist bills, not CASA and that you went to an independant person rather than someone on the CASA payroll. I find it disturbing that any pilot would side with CASA and agree that I deserve a pay cut of $2.50 per week. If a Polition gives a $2.50 pay rise, he gets voted in.

[Horatio Leafblower]

Kelly

I know, I know.

My certification had to go to a review panel at CASA. My DAME did all the normal stuff and co-ordinates the paperwork trail, but at the end of the day he only sends it to them.

My Medical bears the dreaded "Renew by CASA only" and thus can't be stamped by my DAME.

Yes I am selfish enough to keep flying, too.

The ASICs/AVIDs are a joke and $130 to put a new type on your licence is a joke and $65 to fax a copy of old mate's medical certificate is a joke. All these fees are a joke but ... for the medicals I can understand (even if I'm not happy about it personally).

Cheers

:ouch:

[RWJackOfAllTrades]

Beg's the question, why on earth do we pay taxes? Will we soon pay a call-out fee for the police?

A lot of anger out there in GA circles, particularly for the less experienced guys (all of us at one point!!!) who can't command decent, let alone award wages and this impost just adds to an already hard career path. The originator certainly has some valid arguments and I could argue against the guy and say hey, cut them some slack....these guys are so slow, generally incompitent and largely apathetic that is probably does take them a day to process a medical. If only we could charge them our hourly rate when we calculate all the time we take in chasing medicals, licence amendments etc etc.

CASA truly are a disgraceful organisation in almost every respect after ten years in the industry, I am still searching for something positive to say about them.

[compressor stall]

The number of ATPL/CPL/flight engineers with current class 1 medicals is 12767.
There are 20389 pilots with biannual class 2 medicals. That gives 10194 class 2 medicals per annum.
Total medicals process by casa in 2004: 22961.

At one hour each, that's 22961 hours.

Now there are (38 working hours a week, 46 weeks a year (52-annual leave and pulic hols) 1748 working hours a year.

Divide 1 by 2 and you have 13 people that would have to be working on pilot medicals full time - each and every work day of the year....

How many are there?

[frangatang]

Casa must have been in a chinwag with the uk Caa.I renewed my 6 monthly medical,without an ecg or audiogram and it cost A$360. You are extremely cheap in relative terms.

[THE CONTRACTOR]

If an ATO has an instrument to act on behalf of CASA, test and write out certificates for Licences, Ratings ect. Then surely a Qualified and certified DESIGNATED aviation medical EXAMINER, can write out the certificates on behalf of CASA at the time of Medical. They already have the power to extend it for two months. OK so charge a bit extra for the old A4 paper, but unless you have a problem which may need to be referred to a CASA specialist, there should be no need for them to, wait for it DOUBLE HANDLED(govt Dept's a great for creating work already created). They are effectively, saying your a DAME but we do not trust you so we will just double check your work. BulshUt they are revenue raising.

[TLAW]

I still don't get it - they are not providing a service, it is a regulatory requirement. If anything WE are providing a service to them by proving our medical fitness. It's like buying a ticket for a movie, and having to pay extra to the bloke on the door for the 'service' of collecting your ticket.

[Sunfish]

Hint: Try and get a medical as searching as the Med Certificate, and then get the Doctor(s) to certify in writing that you are fit to operate heavy machinery for less than 90+130 = $220.
Have a mate whose heart problems were picked up at his medical. Triple bypass at the Alfred three days later.
CASA biannual medical is good value (110 per annum) just on the basis of what they pick up even if you don't fly

[TLAW]

I don't have a problem with paying the doctor $90 for a medical exam. I do have a problem with paying $130 extra for a piece of paper, which says nothing the doctor already hasn't.

[Counter-rotation]

TLAW you've got it exactly right.

$$$ to the doctor is payment to him for his craft. But for CA$A to then charge such a fee for processing it is a :mad: insult to the industry - and can be shown (see above) to be a blatent load of garbage.

Yet they wheel it out anyway :yuk: :yuk:

Like the scorpion on the frog's back, they just can't help themselves, and won't be satisfied until there is no G.A. left to regulate.

Who'll pay the bloody fees then you morons?!

How can we get them all in the same room, to knock some sense into 'em?

CR.

[Aerodynamisist]

Going on the information provided for us already by compressor stall at $130 per pop thats
$ 2,984,930

more than enough to employ 13 clerks and a supervisor

[rmcdonal]

I think CASA should take a leaf out of the sustainable agriculture handbook.
We (pilots/aircrew/controller/etc) are like cattle (or sheep if your from NZ :} ), you can take a certain amount from us each year to make money for yourselves and to improve the farm. However, if you take everything in one go then there is nothing there for next year and so your source of income stops.
Now if you only take a little bit, just enough to keep yourselves happy and the farm running then next year there well be more of us. The more of us there are the money you can make and so on and so on. I learnt this in year 8. Funny how I never thought I would use it. :rolleyes:
:ok: :ok:

[poteroo]

DAME's apparently are avoiding the online submission of medicals - claim it takes them an hour to do it ! Now that's progress !

So, it's still on paper. But, CASA charge the DAME $1.50 per sheet for these forms. Encouragement to change?

Talk about squeezing the lemon !

happy days,

[funnelweb]

Does this $130 include GST?
I'm considering sending two cheques along with my medical, one for $117 and another for $13 to cover the GST component; appropriate receipts included included with my medical thankyou!
If the medical certificate turns up within 8 weeks I'll send another $50 to the Spastic Centre.:mad:

[ausdoc]

Just for interest, how long is it taking most people to get their medical certificates back from CASA?

[AlJassmi]

At my last check up the DAME went through the online form and ticked the boxes as i answered. Didn't appear to take much (any) longer doing it that way. If CASA receive the information in that format I can't see how it would take an hour to process. Perhaps as more DAMEs use that method it will reduce the time required for CASA to process each renewal and they'll be able to lower their charges accordingly. :rolleyes:

[bushy]

The $130 fee is bearable, but is possibly the thin end of the wedge. Is it necessary?
I remember, some time ago, hearing about the head of CASA medical section hiring the RFDS kingair, getting an endorsement on it, and going out on some evacuation flights.
When he resigned, he was asked if he resigned because he did not get a boeing endorsement. He did not answer.
Is part of this $130 going to things like that? Does the CASA desk staff get flight training at our expense?

[tinythom]

Holy Hell:eek:

I have just (finally) gone through the new CASA charges. To say I am horrified at the extent of this highway robbery is to put it mildly.

Whilst I take the point that for many of us, these fees are a tax deduction, for many MANY 'professional pilots' attempting to get a start in this industry, the fees are another cruel and uneccesary expense. Let us also not forget about the many GA pilots who fly for the pure enjoyment of it who cannot claim these expenses on tax.

Well, for all the good it will do, I am writing to Warren Truss and Bruce Byron (Well CASA anyway - is BB's address [email protected] ??). You will find their details below. One person venting their spleen may not have much of an impact. According to CASA there are approximately 33,000 licenced pilots in Australia. I suggest that Mr Truss, A National Party parliamentarian, may pay more attention if he receives 33000 letters/e-mails/phone calls. Now that the Nationals have gone through this week's trauma with the Liberal Party they might be more sensitive to bad publicity.

I am not particularly good with writing short, succinct letters so maybe someone who is can post a standard letter on pprune so that those of us who are less eloquent can cut and paste the text into a letter or e-mail.

LETS NOT BE APATHETIC ABOUT THIS. A LETTER/E-MAIL WILL TAKE 5 MINS OF YOUR TIME.


The Hon Warren Truss MP

http://www.aph.gov.au/house/members/member.asp?id=GT4

Title: Deputy Leader of the Nationals; Minister for Transport and Regional Services. Party: Nationals
Parliament House Contact

House of Representatives
Parliament House
Canberra ACT 2600
Tel: (02) 6277 7680
Fax: (02) 6273 4126
Email: [email protected]
Electorate Office Contact

Maryborough Office:
Location:
319 Kent Street
Maryborough Qld 4650

Postal Address:
PO Box 283
Maryborough Qld 4650

Tel: (07) 4121 2936
Fax: (07) 4122 3968




CASA Complaints and compliments COMPLIMENTS:yuk:, YEAH THAT'D BE LIKELY EH...?


if you have a complaint or compliment for CASA there are a number of ways to let us know:
Phone: 02 6217 1717 Email: [email protected] Fax: 02 6217 1209 Mail: GPO Box 2005
Canberra ACT 2601 Alternatively, if you would like to speak to someone personally please contact Geoffrey Kimber, Acting Manager Corporate Relations, by phone on 02 6217 1010 or email [email protected]

(http://casa.gov.au/tools/privacy/index.htm)

[Horatio Leafblower]

Don't bother.

I sent Mr Truss AND my local member (John Fckn Anderson) each a letter, about 1.5 pages each, two weeks ago. A copy to their parliamentary offices and a copy to their electorate office.

Not worthy of a response, obviously.:sad:

[chief wiggum]

Not worthy of a response, obviously.

fair go mate, it takes time to phrase a letter nicely which basically says " We don't give a rats a@se about you pilots. Yes, you are getting screwed. We knew about this. We endorse it. we think it is realistic. Please vote for me again"

Basically, they are a bunch of w@nkers who probably are illiterate, so letter writing is not forefront in their list of priorities.

***remove this ridiculous charge, and I shall apologisse to the pollies...in writing***

[pall]

tinythom,

Thanks for the prompt. I have emailed Minister Truss and CASA expressing my concerns about the incresed costs of a Medical for Private Pilots.

Yes, I know it can feel like your view is lost in the vast beauracracy, but we do live in a democratic country and we do have the right and responsibility to express our views.

[Captain Starlight]

Pall,

sorry, you're wrong. the new anti sedition laws make it an offence to disagree with your ELECTED gummint.

You no longer have democratic rights, they may run contrary to the spin of the day.

In the interests of national security and your own personal survival,
you should keep quiet and say nothing that contradicts that which our duly elected democratic gummint has decreed,
or face the published consequences.

Democracy is a fundamentally flawed system, autocracy is ultimately more beneficial for the common good.

It's fairly simple, really, just shut up and trust who ever was voted in.

[TLAW]

I too have written to the minister - when, sorry, IF I get a response I shall post it here.

*stands in corner, not holding breath*

[Sunfish]

Sending letters? You are all mad. Furthermore, you are simply reinforcing the perception of CASA and the Minister that GA pilots are a bunch of whiny moronic idiots who deserve no consideration whatsoever.

What do you expect your letters to achieve?

Do you think the Minister is going to order CASA to abandon cost recovery plans?

Do you think that Mr. B is going to write back to you along the lines "Sorry! We made a big mistake messing with all you GA pilots! I'll have the order rescinded in a jiffy, and here is a cheques for the stamp and paper you used for your letter. Now is there anything else that causes you displeasure that you would like me to change?".

Only AOPA thinks this will happen.

Observation 1: GA is last on CASA's priority list. All your whining will do is confirm to CASA and the Minister that it belongs where it is.

Observation 2: Cost recovery is being forced on CASA by the treasury, and nobody ^&cks with Treasury! CASA has to comply.

Observation 3: A full aviation medical is good value at $220 bucks even if you don't fly.

You have a clear choice, either you can continue fighting and whining, kicking and screaming all the time about DOTARS and CASA, like a bunch of overgrown children ar you can grow up.

If you want to act like a grown up, then you should have a stab at understanding CASA's agenda and work with them to try and achieve some win/win outcomes instead of playing silly and pointless games.

[TLAW]

Well, that put me in my place, whiny moronic idiot I am. How dare I exercise step one in my democratic freedoms by writing a letter to my elected representative? Whatever was I thinking?

What I should be doing, of course, is working with CASA to hand over my hard earned $$$ and quit my yap. $135 is great value for a letter printed by a big, expensive computer.

Thanks, Sunfish :ok:

[chief wiggum]

Sunfish,

you really are an idiot, aren't you.
IF you don't do ANYTHING, then NOTHING will get done.
IF nothing gets done, but we tried as hard as we can, at least we can say "we did all we could".

It is lame arsed whimps like you who meekly accept getting screwed all the time who land us in the predicament we are in now! How much do YOU think we shoul be paying ?

Surely if YOU can see a better way to do things, then you should SAY so! it is the responsible thing to do.

[tinythom]

Thankyou for your helpful and well argued input there Sunfish. Clearly you are a man of immense intellect. It's a wonder that you are still in this industry given your obvious superiority over us unthinking minions.

You prat! I have a vision of four bars, ray-bans, toupee and gout. It's obviously been too long for you to remember your first solo or maybe even your first job eh?

Do you think the Minister is going to order CASA to abandon cost recovery plans? No I certainly don't. However I believe that the fees are unreasonable and that a reduction of fees is possible with industry pressure.

Observation 3: A full aviation medical is good value at $220 bucks even if you don't fly. I'm sorry (obviously my whiny moronic logic re-appearing here) but how is that good value? A full aviation medical costs far less than $220. And if you're not flying, why would you bother.


But maybe you're right Sunfish. Maybe there is no hope anymore and I should just allocate a 10% stipend straight into the CASA fighting fund. :ok: I mean that way, I will truly understand their agenda and then it really be a win/win outcome eh?

[ANDRE25i]

tlaw, youve got it exactly right!

[Lodown]

There doesn't appear to much rational thought in some of the halls of CASA. These fees don't much hurt the commercial pilots with jobs, but they do take a big whack out of the private and unemployed pilot's budget, who can't take the tax deduction.

One of the issues with all this "user pays" process is that as with RPT, flying is cheaper in bulk. 20 years ago when user pays wasn't about, an aircraft would cost $90 an hour to fly regardless of whether you were an airline pilot or a weekend warrior. Nowadays, with the charts, the medicals, landing fees and other extras, it costs considerably more to fly per hour the less hours you fly. CASA needs to address this matter. I'm sure they know it's happening, but they might not be aware of the impact.

[CIA Stooge]

Observation 2: Cost recovery is being forced on CASA by the treasury, and nobody ^&cks with Treasury! CASA has to comply.

The above may or may not be true but one thing that CASA needs is accountability for the money it spends - I know one business owner who submitted a quotation for work to CASA - he got the job but was advised he could 'up' his quotation by around 50% and he'd still get the job. He did so but was left with a slightly 'gobsmacked' feeling. Added to that he got the distinct impression no other tenders / quotations had been requested. Strange way to do business.....

[Sunfish]

There must be something in the rarified air some of you guys breath.

I am not advocating "giving in" to CASA. In fact the idea of even framing the topic in terms of a win/lose discussion is pathetic.

What I am trying to explain is that YOU ARE ATTEMPTING TO DEAL WITH GOVERNMENT IN THE MOST UNPROFESSIONAL MANNER I HAVE EVER SEEN, AND ONE THAT WILL NOT ONLY FAIL COMPLETELY, BUT GUARANTEE FURTHER FAILURES.

Having got that off my chest, I think its a behavioural issue. You guys are used to dealing with black/white. go/no go decisions that require instant and sure decision making. Government and politics is about ambiguity, shades of grey, "maybe", "perhaps" and furthermore decisions can be revisited because there is often no "right" answer, just a "less worse" answer, furthermore the answers change all the time.

CASA has no choice in the matter. If the treasury has told them to do it, then they must do it, period. If the fee has been set by someone with expereince in management accounting who has captured the fixed, variable direct and indirect components of CASA's cost base then you have to abide by it, period.

For the umpteenth time, the correct way to engage with CASA, or any Government body, is to understand their agenda and the pressures they are under. Then, with an understanding of your own agenda, you look for points of agreement and work towards mutually beneficial outcomes. It takes time, requires compromise and a lot of hard work.

I believe, if the GA industry was smart enough to work with CASA, major cost savings could be achieved, but first you have to have a seat at the table.

Unfortunately there is no organisation representing GA thinking along these lines as the latest asinine "Imagine if there was no AOPA?" ad in the crash comic clearly demonstrates.

You are all just going to continue going backwards and hurting yourselves more and more until enough of you wake up.

[Cinders]

Sunfish,
Being able to yell loudest only makes you the loudest, not the most correct.
I for one will be writing to the Minister, as is my democratic right.
Feel free to stand in your hangar as shout as the masses, it is after all a free country.
C.

[TLAW]

Sunfish, your post is the most unprofessional I have ever seen. You continually snipe at others for doing something, yet advocate no course of action yourself.

You guarantee we will fail. I also guarantee we will fail, but only if we do nothing.

I fully recognise that CASA are not the driving force behind cost recovery - yet they are the ones who are collecting the fees and publishing the cost structure. Therefore, we have no choice but to direct our protests towards them. Hence, letters to the Minister as a (I'll say it again) FIRST step. You propose working with CASA yet decline to explain further what you mean by this. From where I sit, the only way I can work with CASA is to pay up and shut up.

No one has couched this in terms of all or nothing, win/lose, except yourself. I believe this fee of $130 is the thin end of the wedge and that in subsequent years we will see increases that will make even you choke as you hard over your hard earned.

I believe that if enough response is received from us, the Minister may undertake to review the level of cost recovery to something a bit more reasonable, and more in line with the actual cost of recovery, not some BS figure plucked out of the air by some consultant. If not, then we shall have to take matters further, and elsewhere.

Personally, though, I do not believe Australian pilots have enough spine and cohesion to do much of anything or achieve much of anything at all, your response seems to back that up. I sincerely hope I am wrong on this point.

Having got that off my chest, what have YOU done so far, and what do YOU hope to do in the future on this topic? If the answer is nothing/nothing, then get the hell out of the way.

/end rant.

[Di_Vosh]

Or is it me being too simple? :}

I'm not sure where I read it, but recently there was a quote from BB saying that CASA is mainly interested in regulating the operations that cover the 95% of people who fly (i.e. RPT passengers).

So why doesn't AOPA, etc, lobby the minister and CASA to direct 95% of their cost recovery from that sector?

DIVOSH?

[Sunfish]

TLAW, I have consistently proposed a course of action that is about working with CASA instead of this ongoing confrontational claptrap which I guarantee will get the GA community nowhere. Is that clear enough for you?

Do you know who gets to write the Ministers letter in reply to the complaining one you have supposedly sent? It's usually the poor sod whos job it is to implement the medical charges scheme. the Minister doesn't even usually see it except when he signs it.

All your letter of complaint does is label you, in the eyes of the guys who have to implement this highly unpopular measure, as a whining, complaining pr1ck, making more work for a poor public servant. Please try and understand this. I am not making it up. I have had to write such letters for Ministers (and in one case the Premier) and deal with complainers myself.

Here are a few things that a proper GA representative organisation should do:

1. Organise an annual GA conference. You should be able to get a stack of organisations to sponsor it, including CASA and DOTARS plus the State Government of wherever it is held. If you dont understand what I'm talking about, tell me.

2. Offer to organise focus groups for CASA, DOTARS etc. on any GA aviation issue they wish to study.

I could go on and on. There are so many ways CASA and GA could wrk together if only this confrontational aggressive crap could be done away with.

[TLAW]

And once again Sunfish you advocated ordinary pilots do nothing instead of something. I also notice you dodged that question as to what you have done on this issue.

It is my democratic right to question my elected representatives on decisions policies that I see as being short sighted, unfair, illogical or inept. You see my exercising of that right as being 'mad' and that I am a 'whiny moronic idiot.'

You also label me a 'whining complaining pr1ck' and stand firmly on the side of a 'poor public servant. Good for you, they really need someone to stick up for them :rolleyes:

Guess what? I used to work for a government department as well. I also used to have to write reports for the Minister explaining why a member of the public had taken to writing her a letter. I don't know what department you worked for, and I don't really care. I can tell you, though, that the Minister used to take a keen interest in the letters that came across her desk, especially if there were hundreds all the same. She knew that if a satisfactory reply was not received, the opposition minister and media would soon be getting copies.

You seem to be advocating that AOPA or AFAP take the good fight and work with CASA to sorting this out - I heartily agree. Do you think their case is helped or hindered by a deafening silence from the majority of ordinary Australian pilots? Don't bother answering as I already know what your reply will be - whatever suits your argument at the time.

In short, thanks for your input. I shall continue to pursue any avenues available to me while you hurl abuse from the sidelines and presume to tell me what I may or may not do.

[Sunfish]

Tlaw, you are welcome to do what you like, but if you think a handful of letters from GA pilots are going to trump a Cabinet decision about cost recovery by Goverment entities think again.

Futhermore, and without wishing to get into a p1ssing contest. I've worked for Ministers who read stuff and those who didn't. As for the opposition, do you think they would do any different?

For all you potential letter writers out there, let me tell you what happens to your letter when it arrives at the Department (any department).

1. It is opened and logged, there is usually a time limit for the reply. Every letter has to be answered.

2. It is sorted according to whatever protocol the Ministers office has decided. The Minister is highly unlikely to read a letter of complaint, they are extremely busy people, working from a running sheet that starts at 7.00am or earlier each day.

3. The letters of complaint will probably be passed to the Secretary's office who will further sort them and pass them down. The Secretary's office would only deal with extremely serious ones.

4. After about three sortings, your letter is going to arrive on the desk of the person writing the reply who is normally the person responsible for what ever action is being complained about. Please note that if you complain about Mr. X in Brisbane, Mr. X is going to write the Ministers reply and the associated brief explaining the nature of the complaint and what is being done about it

The upshot of this is that the poor b@stards who have to implement the cost recovery program are going to have to deal with your complaints, and I can assure you it is a thankless task, especialy when you know the complaint is stupid with no possibility of resolution, as these costs complaints are.

But wait, there is more. You now have a file, because everything is filed. Now let me tell you a little secret, Public servants do occasionally get their revenge.

Suppose you are a serial complainer, and have caused a few public servants at CASA to miss their lunch a few times over the years. Three years from now your medical comes up for renewal and woe of woes, there is some Cardiac or other anomaly that requires that your medical be reviewed by CASA's experts in Canberra. The experts come back to CASA with an open finding, CASA can renew or not renew at its discretion - and now the decider is the person who has had to answer all your whining complaints over the years. Believe me I've seen it happen.

As for ACTION, start by getting the GA association house in order.

[TLAW]

Tlaw, you are welcome to do what you like...

Thank you, I will.

As for ACTION, start by getting the GA association house in order.

Great idea.