Ascot 9521 Smoke in cockpit

[Nano 763]

A few hours ago, while crossing the NAT, a Jaguar named Ascot 9521 called Mayday due to smoke in the cockpit.
He was at N41W038, and he and Ascot 9113 headed for Lajes.
They were doing 300kts at FL230.
Now, I'm not exactly sure how far it is from there to Lajes, but I'm sure it's a LONG way.

Does anyone have any more recent info as to whether this fellow arrived, or is he swimming around waiting for someone to go pick him up????

[BEagle]

Sounds very nasty indeed - fingers crossed that it had a safe ending.

From N41W038 to Lajes is approx 450 nm.

It used to be normal for a SAR Nimrod to accompany North Atlantic AAR trails - I don't know whether that's still the case.

[dallas]

Beagle

As a cost cutting measure the Nimrod sits at KSS at RS60(?) until a trail is confirmed as landed safely. It can be easily on scene in 5-6 hours :hmm:

[sooms]

Thats reassuring. Hope it turned out ok.

[DESPERADO]

I can't believe how quickly this stuff gets on PP.
For info, he landed safely without further complications at Lajes after turning around enroute Bangor.
Nothing else to add.

[Tonkenna]

He landed safely and is standing next to me drinking a beer. He was on the wing in $hite weather at the time! Many thanks to the ac that relayed the Mayday I put out...

Tonks

PS... the copilot passed his trail check.

[BEagle]

Hi Tonks! Hope that the Jag mate enjoys his beer.

A prudent move to have him beside you, rather than behind you...:uhoh:

A few more days in Lajes then, I guess. Is that old rogue Ten Percent Carlos still looking after things - if so, give him a kick in the slats from me!

And top tick to both yourself and the co-pilot for a well-managed trail!!

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

Nice to see a happy outcome:ok: And the beer is VVV cheap in Lajes:E

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[stickmonkeytamer]

Ah, King Carlos of Lajes. He almost runs the entire island!!! If you tell him that you will ask for extra catering next time, he will give you a bottle of Port to entice you- rather good stuff too!!! Don't give it to the tanker crew to "guard" for you- you will never see it again!!!

SMT

[BEagle]

Splendid rogue is 10% Carlos! He once booked me in to the Presidential Suite at the Nasce Agua during a typical Canadian weather delay faff!

"Special room for Commandante - I fix!".

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

He was a gypsy, the accom was less than brill and the rats were crap.......... but what a toptastic nite out. There was a steak house down a back street where the food was to die for and a great tapas bar that served huge beers from a fountain bought to the table which was top value. Hope you jag mates have a good nite out and fly safe tomorrow:ok:

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[PPRuNeUser0211]

Aahhh carlos... the legend! For some reason i seem to remember him trying to persuade me and a crew to go golfing.... at 4am!

[Nano 763]

I'm glad to hear everything turned out alright.
I hope you enjoyed the drinks. You obviously deserved them.

Any chance of finding out why you were filling up with smoke?

[Hoots]

I wouldn't like to bob around in the North Atlantic for 1 hour never mind 5-6 hours, would be interested in the FJ jockey's views on having their SAR cover far far away. Is risk management going too far for the sake of cost cutting? As I said interested in hearing the FJ viewpoint.

[[email protected]]

And what exactly do you think the Nimrod will do when he finds you - it can search but it can't rescue. Dropping more dinghies when you are already safe and sound in yours is fairly pointless. This is why it stays at home instead.

[brakedwell]

Don't RAF crews stay in the transit BOQ's at the USAF Officers' Club anymore?

[Roland Pulfrew]

Crab

Anyone who has flown over the Atlantic for long hours will tell you that there aren't that many ships out there!! So your Nimrod, at RS 60, might take 4 -5 hours to reach you, depending upon where you ditch/eject. Until the MRA4 comes how long does he actually does a Mk 2 have on station before having to RTB or divert? Unless the pilot is AAR qualified and the tanker stays on scene, the Nimrod might have an hour or 2 to locate the FJ mate in his dinghy and then find a ship to vector to the scene of search! IMHO much better to have the Nimrod flying the trail route so at least radar is already tracking the shipping contacts in the area. That way, hopefully, the rescue will happen much more quickly.

[Art Field]

Brakedwell, the USAF moved out of Lajes many years ago, but they have moved back in again [see next entry]. However as far as I know the RAF treat it as a Portugese airfield completely now.

[airborne_artist]

the USAF moved out of Lajes many years agoIs this site out of date, then? http://www.lajes.af.mil/

[brakedwell]

Thanks Ant. I spent five months in Lajes during the winter of 1957/8, living in the BOQ'a next to the Officers' Club. I will never forget watching B47's trying to land in gale force Xwinds. Several failed to stay on the runway and caused panic on the ramp as they narrowly missed the rows of parked transports. I also looked over a C130 in Jan or Feb 1958 when it arrived on a proving flight. That seems a lifetime ago.

http://www.airliners.net/open.file?id=183447&WxsIERv=Unaqyrl%20Cntr%20Unfgvatf%20PZx2&Wm=0&WdsYXMg=HX%20-%20Nve%20Sbepr&QtODMg=Ynwrf%20%2F%20Nmberf%20%28NO4%29%20%28GRE%20%2F%20YCY N%29&ERDLTkt=Cbeghtny&ktODMp=Sroehnel%201958&BP=0&WNEb25u=Wbua%20Wnzrf&xsIERvdWdsY=&MgTUQtODMgKE=Ivrj%20bs%20gur%20Ynwrf%20syvtug%20yvar%20jvgu% 20P118%20P124&YXMgTUQtODMgKERD=1595&NEb25uZWxs=2001-08-17%2000%3A00%3A00&ODJ9dvCE=&O89Dcjdg=&static=yes&width=1007&height=598&sok=JURER%20%20%28ZNGPU%20%28nvepensg%2Cnveyvar%2Ccynpr%2Ccu bgb_qngr%2Cpbhagel%2Cerznex%2Ccubgbtencure%2Crznvy%2Clrne%2C ert%2Cnvepensg_trarevp%2Cpa%2Cpbqr%29%20NTNVAFG%20%28%27%2B% 22frqtjvpxwnzrf%40pynen.pb.hx%22%27%20VA%20OBBYRNA%20ZBQR%29 %29%20%20beqre%20ol%20cubgb_vq%20QRFP&photo_nr=44&prev_id=183448&next_id=183446&size=L

[CBA_caption]

On a recent(ish) trail not long after the SAR cover was lifted the consenus was the 5-6 hours in Sea State Puke in a single manner would leave you so drained as to be if not very nearly dead, thenactually dead.

Most of us made this point to our nearest and dearest in order that they have the most ammo for the coroner!

The 'managing Risk' side is becoming a real danger in my opinion: "I'll cut this from my budget, and as long as no one dies before I'm posted I'm laughing!"

Accountants are an evil breed with far, far too much power.

CBA

[BEagle]

I can see some sense in keeping a Nimrod at Lajes at high readiness state, so that it could be on the scene within an hour or so and have sufficient fuel to remain on scene for several hours. If HMFC is really so cash-strapped that it can't afford the Nimrod following the last wave across to Halifax or wherever, then at least it could return to ISK from Lajes once the last wave made landfall in Canada.

But for it to be sitting on the ground in the north of Scotland is next to useless.

Especially in a North Atlantic winter.

[Hoots]

It concerns me that the cut backs both in manpower and equipment will no doubt end with someones death. If we think of it as "in the unlikely event" then sods law says that some poor sod or two will freeze to death in the North Atlantic some day. This may be an acceptable risk to the airships. So much for people being the most important asset. The trail used to be followed, then the SAR aircraft was on standby at Lajes and now it sits on the ground at ISK. So much for giving the FJ dudes the best chance of survival.

[OKOC]

I guess it's all about risk management (cash) but it seems that the service to our FJ friends has sadly declined.
God forbid that they would need to sit it out in their single seat liferaft in the Atlantic in mid-winter whilst awaiting help from Kinloss-not really sensible in my book. :{
SAR, unlikely to be needed you may say but then when it happens.......who'd a thought it.......and it is actually a prime role I believe for the mighty Nimrod-how did their Airships manage to persuade the Operators it was "the way forward"?:confused:

[brit bus driver]

how did their Airships manage to persuade the Operators it was "the way forward"?
Err...maybe they didn't ask? Certainly came as something of a shock to the FJ Sqn Cdr sitting on the jump seat when I showed him the then-recent new policy letter. :sad:

[FJJP]

If I was a FJ guy, I would make it my business to find out who made the policy decision, by name; I would try to discover as much info as possible, inc correspondence, meeting dates, etc.

Then I would generate a comprehensive brief, send a copy to ALL the national media and file the details with the rest of the paperwork in the envelope marked 'open in the event of my death' locked in my fire safe.

That would ensure that my widow had enough ammunition to take HMG to the cleaners - it would make my life assurance/investment provision look like insignificant small change.

The bean stealers have no right to make a risk assessment judgement with peoples' lives in peacetime...

[LFFC]

I recall being told many years ago that the tankers sometimes had problems making position reports on HF when on trails over the North Atlantic. A good solution used to be to call the Nimrod on VHF/UHF and get them to relay the tankers'/FJ position. Maybe there are other ways of doing this now though (satcom)?

[BEagle]

Satcom?

In yoof-speak, one understands the internet term is 'ROFLMAO - YGTBK'...:rolleyes:

[LFFC]

I take it that's a "no" then BEagle. But I guess the new Airbus tankers will have it? ;)

[Well Travelled Nav]

To provide a little more background to SAR cover by Nimrods for trails, I will detail the procedure that used to be used when we provided airborne cover.

The Nimrod always had to be airborne before any other aircraft, and land after all the others as the aircraft occasionally had the reputation of going u/s and the trail would not proceed without SAR cover.

For a 3 wave trail (worst case option was to have to cover 3 waves with 1 Nimrod), the Nimrod would be airborne first with the plan being to let the 1st wave depart the airfield (Nimrod wasting fuel orbiting the departure airfield). We were then to follow on the basis that the second wave would overtake us (faster TAS). So by the time the 1st wave had made landfall the Nimrod would be positioned between wave 2 and 3.

The worst case scenario was for the 3rd wave to have a problem and for the Nimrod to have to double back to cover an ejection from the 3rd wave. A very smart Nimrod Captain looked in detail at this scenario in the late 90’s. He took a trail brief that he was tasked as SAR cover for, and he calculated (using historic met for that time of year) that, for a leg between Lajes and Halifax for a 3 wave trail, the Nimrod would be lucky to be able to provide 45 mins on-task to cover a 3rd wave ejection at the farthest point from land.

It is extremely difficult to see a man in a single seat dinghy in the Moray Firth in sea state 2-3, so it would be a lot harder in the middle of the North Atlantic (ss>6). For a single seat liferaft the swept width that was used to give a decent probability of detection from 400’ or so was only about 0.25 to 0.5 nm. Consequently, it was very likely for a Nimrod to take longer than 45 mins to find a pilot unless his wingman observed and orbited his splashdown. However, a big fuel consumption for the wingman meant he would probably not have enough fuel to orbit at low level whilst waiting up to 1+ hour for the Nimrod to backtrack; even refuelling at low level from the tanker whilst keeping an eye on your mate in the water would be nigh on impossible.

Therefore, it made sense for the Nimrod to be holding SAR on the ground at Lajes so it could guarantee more on-task time should an ejection occur and give a greater probability that the pilot would be found before the aircraft had to depart the scene at PLE for the nearest airfield.

This was a sensible solution, but to have the Nimrod hold SAR cover at Kinloss when the preferred track for the aircrew was the southerly nearer Lajes (warmer sea temps and more merchant shipping to pick up the guy in the dinghy), than the northerly route nearer Iceland, is barking and purely penny pinching.

WTN

[Art Field]

Am I missing something or are there no locator beacons in the safety equipment anymore?.

I know it was some years ago but an F4 on recovery to UK from Stanley via Ascension only just made Tenerife after a massive fuel leak. The comforting thought for the crew was that a Nimrod was close by.

[Toxteth O'Grady]

This question is not meant to be provocative. How many RAF FJ crew have had to be rescued after ejecting over the middle of the North Atlantic, in the past 30 years?

My guess would be very few, if any, and that was probably one of the main factors in the decision to remove airborne SAR cover.

:cool:

TOG

[BEagle]

Tell that to the widow of the first do so.....

[Toxteth O'Grady]

Sadly, totally risk-free employment is unaffordable. That applies to many professions, not just RAF FJ crew.

I, like you, would wish it were otherwise for the sake of that yet to be widowed wife - but it ain't gonna happen.

Anyway you've answered my question. Thank you.

:cool:

TOG

[[email protected]]

Alternatively buy some modern safety equipment with a 406mhz beacon in it linked to a GPS module that includes position information as part of the databurst transmission. Then when a satellite picks up the info, the SAR coordination centre for the area will be able to direct shipping straight to the dinghy without any fannying about. Or we could just wait for SARSAT/COSPAS to stop monitoring 243 (and having to wait for 2 passes to confirm the approximate location) and hope the Nimrod doesn't go U/S on start.

[Safety_Helmut]

At great risk for using terms like "risk assessment".............

It would be interesting to see the risk assessment (if it exists) that backs up this decision. We now have some figures for VPF (value of prevented fatality) published in JSP550, we can double this figure for a swing wing thing (two crew). The level of risk established during the assessment determines the amount it is reasonable to spend on prevention. If up near the intolreable level, then the disproportionaility multiplier could be up to 10x. This is not my thinking, this is the belief of the HSE and the way that the courts will interpret things, and accepted by MoD. So in crude terms, I suspect you would have to be spending a sh!tload of cash to justify this. Now i'm not aircrew, but I would also suspect that that Nimrod, either on standby, or in the air, gives you at least a sense that someone will be looking out for you should something go wrong, and you probably can't put a value on that.

Safety_Helmut

[Hoots]

Well it does seem that we all pretty much agree that the new system in place is pretty useless, thanks for your replies, they have made interesting reading.

WTN
You brought back some fond memories of following the trail, if i remember correctly, we used to make landfall just ahead of wave 3, and had waves 1 & 2 on radar for the majority of the trip, with shipping plotted along the route. I can assure the FJ crews that the Nimrod crews didn't take these trips lightly, despite the occasional bit of banter whilst eating a chicken curry.

I believe many of the present Nimrod aircrew probably don't like the idea of not providing a proper service to our FJ chums.

[Dan Winterland]

Well done to all, but what are you doing PPRuNing while on a det Tonks!

Ah, of course, you're in Lajes where there is so much to do! Have a Super Bock for me!

PS. The steak house is called Marcellino's.

[BEagle]

And a mighty fine steak house it is too! 'Portuguese steak' thoroughly recommended!

There's also a country restaurant run (predictably enough) by a friend of Ten Percent Carlos. Garlic prawns like small sea monsters - wonderful! And 10% Carlos will arrange a very cheap coach to take you there and back as well, thanks to another of his contacts!

[Tonkenna]

Dan,

The steak house is still good, and the hotels have improved somewhat!!! Though after 6 days we had had enough of the place.

The only reason I could post down-route was that the co had a very Gucci phone with the WWW on it.... dam cleaver

Not sure what will happen to the old Jag we left behind... part of the new gate they are building at the base, or perhaps Carlos will sell it for scrap:confused:

Will email you soon Dan....

Tonks:cool:

[The Rocket]

Ah, Lajes.

The land of amusing town names. Fonte Bastardo anyone:ok:

Not a bad Mexican there too if I'm not mistaken. Terrible place to be stranded in though. Not even a very good BX ;)

As regards the Jaguar, I was under the impression that they were taking the wings and fin off, and transporting it home?

[BEagle]

Ah - the great BX myth. In which many a wandering Ascoteer has wasted hours buying utter 'route steal' junk which has been consigned to the role of loft insulation within a few days of RTB time...

Hang on, that gives me an idea for a new thread...

[CBA_caption]

Any news on the fried Tonka still stuck at the Oceanic Service Station?

[Jobza Guddun]

Guys from our place going to repair it aren't banking on less than 2 weeks, in all seriousness.

Allegedly, once repaired the idea is to trail it as per the original plot...any takers amongst the GR4 aircrew community then? :eek: :eek: :eek: