St Athan and the £100m White Elephant

[Washington_Irving]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/wales/4621566.stm

Have already made my views clear on other threads about the f:mad:wits at DARA, the WDA etc. who thought that this enterprise could compete with the private sector and/or deliver a service that could meet even the most rudimentary of requirements.

As prophesised by my good self some weeks ago, it would appear that 1 PARA and the Welsh Guards will soon have a cracking MT shed.

:mad:

[mary_hinge]

Full report should be here:

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200506/cmselect/cmdfence/557/55702.htm

But from the Summary.

"The future of DARA is uncertain: some of its businesses are to be closed down; others are to be market tested. The prospects for the DARA St Athan site, including its recently completed Superhangar facility costing over £100m, are in particular doubt. Seen with the benefit of hindsight, MoD's decision to go ahead with building the Superhangar at DARA St Athan at a time when it was reviewing its logistic support provision was incomprehensible and we recommend an investigation by the National Audit Office and the Wales Audit Office. It was also a clear example of a lack of joined-up Government. But now that the Superhangar with its impressive state-of-the-art facilities has been built, it is vital that MoD works with other government bodies to attract commercial investment there." :suspect:

[Washington_Irving]

This might have been better suited for the spanner-monkey's forum, but as many who worked there said at the time that DARA was established- and the head shed started all the pie-in-the-sky talk of attracting commercial customers like it was the easiest thing in the world- where is the surplus of demand in the UK or European aerospace industry for another such facility?

All the current companies and organisations in the marketplace seem to be doing rather well as is, without the need to buy a super-duper, nearly-new building. Or will the involvment of "other government bodies" be a euphamism for even more tax payers money being thrown at the problem?

[charliegolf]

The WDA (I think they're gone now) have a spectacular record for giving foreign companies huge wads of cash 'for bringing the jobs in'; and not quite being able to notice that the factories shut down when the grants end.

The (usually Jap) company then buggers off to Malaysia or some such place.

Quite how they even thought that giving the dosh to DARA was going to pay off, I'll never know.

CG

[Washington_Irving]

The WDA (I think they're gone now) have a spectacular record for giving foreign companies huge wads of cash 'for bringing the jobs in'; and not quite being able to notice that the factories shut down when the grants end.
The (usually Jap) company then buggers off to Malaysia or some such place.
Quite how they even thought that giving the dosh to DARA was going to pay off, I'll never know.
CG

Looking on the bright side, at least they didn't p1ss away as much as they did with the LG factory in Newport. (Korea btw.)

Everything will be alright now, I'm sure, since the WDA has been abolished and its duties have been assumed by the ever-capable Welsh Assembly.:hmm:

[tucumseh]

As of December last, the future of DARA is not uncertain. They know what will happen to St Athan, what work Fleetlands will be left with, which MoD agency will take back Sealand and who will buy Almondbank. The last lot are chuffed to bits, but then they always were the crown jewels of DARA/NARO in terms of efficiency and already having a huge percentage of work from the commercial sector. They learned to cope decades ago with what is happening now to the other three.

[charliegolf]

Washington,

You get the prize for world's best euphemism.

You used

"the ever-capable Welsh Assembly"

for

"pointless, money grabbing waste of skins", the usual view around where I live.

Spot on mate.

CG

[teeteringhead]

Tell me Washington, are these f:mad:wits at DARA the same ones that, according to Hansard (if I can be @rsed I'll find a reference), used to turn round Harrier servicings in almost exactly half the time that Cottesmore currently manages???;)

Quite simply IMHO someone had it in for DARA; just think:

Build mega-million squid hangar then "roll forward" takes all work away from it - therefore no work so close DARA fixed wing and flog off the VC 10 work.

"Roll back" helicopter work to DARA Fleetlands - therefore "bloody 'ell, they've got lotsa work - best close 'em and flog off the rotary work..."

Do I detect a scintilla of less-than-consistent policy here??

ISTM that in MoD the right hand doesn't know what the right hand's doing......

[Washington_Irving]

Not knocking work of the chaps and chappesses on the factory floor. Everyone I know saw this coming from a mile away when DARA was first established.

It was everyone's sense from the get-go that the DARA head shed never wanted to be at St Athan, didn't want St Athan as part of the system despite it being the (biggest aircraft engineering facility in the MoD) and, perhaps more importantly, the gaggle of retired Wg Cdrs and Gp Capts they put in charge didn't have a Scooby Doo about how to run the place as a business.

[DEL Mode]

teeteringhead

I think there are two issues with your arguement about turning aircraft around.

1. Why pay a civilian workforce when you already have a military workforce that can do the job (and you need to keep that military workforce occupied in case of crisis)?

2. Turnaround time is not everything if the flow is constant and the aircraft are come out of servicing in the correct mod state and to an agreed standard?

However, I do agree that the treatment of the workforce is appauling.

[tucumseh]

1. Why pay a civilian workforce when you already have a military workforce that can do the job (and you need to keep that military workforce occupied in case of crisis)?

Knowing the skills required at Depths C and D, I can assure you that rolling forward to 2nd line where the work will be carried out by technicians more used to Depths A and B will, at the very least, create a void. Many are the tales of boxes of bits from attempted / botched repairs appearing at DARA workshops.


2. Turnaround time is not everything if the flow is constant and the aircraft are come out of servicing in the correct mod state and to an agreed standard?

If the MoD provided funding to keep documentation at the correct mod state (correct up-to-date documentation being part of the audit trail to ensure serviceability and safety – and we have seen from the Mull thread that neither are high on the MoD’s list of priorities) and had any interest at all in agreeing and adhering to standards, then I’d agree with you. As they don’t, I’m afraid the argument doesn’t stand up. I wish it did.

However, I do agree that the treatment of the workforce is appalling. Agreed!

Buy shares in whoever buys DARA. Given a modicum of commercial acumen together with detailed knowledge of the above, they’ll take MoD to the cleaners.

[Safety_Helmut]

DM
1. Why pay a civilian workforce when you already have a military workforce that can do the job (and you need to keep that military workforce occupied in case of crisis)? 10 or 15 years ago this might have been the case, but not anymore.

The world of lean is seeing to that !

Safety_helmut

[teeteringhead]

I'm pleased that all seem to agree that:

a. The spanner-turners were never the problem.
b. They've been treated very badly.

Washington Irving
you may well be right about management errors, but (as I've mentioned before on these fora) you can't blame "retired wg cdrs and gp capts" as the last of these aged engineers (and the odd air commode!) left DARA more than 2 years ago, before the "End-to-End" study was finished. Perhaps you have emulated your most famous literary creation and have been asleep for a few years??;)

I still believe there was an element of "situating the appreciation" when you consider the disparity of treatment as between St Athan and Fleetlands... maybe votes at Gosport are more valuable than votes in Wales!

My engineer mates tell me the "Super Hangar" is an engineer's dream .... significantly, I know of a very senior RAF engineer who was invited by an old mate to view the facilities (informally - as an old mate). He was put under pressure by men with more stars than he NOT to visit ........

Cynical? Moi?

[Washington_Irving]

Grew up near there, but only make it back a couple of times a year- all v. hard to keep up with the inside scoop. The last of my service mates left the RAFSU about 18 months ago but an ex-DARA PR bod is a mate of mine from school days and he decided to Foxtrot Oscar a couple of weeks before they had to announce that the Tornado work was going to Marham. When the spin-meisters are jumping ship, you know that the writing's on the wall.

Having said all that, and I accept your point fully, the old SEngO club that got the ball rolling helped to set the standards and the precedents for everything that followed.

All v. sad. In April my hometown will be over-run by 1PARA.:eek:

Edited to add that the Vale of Glamorgan is a very marginal seat. It's currently held by John Smith (Lab)- an ex SNCO of all things and a complete oxygen thief who is as much use as tits on a fish.

[BEagle]

Probably like the excellent hangars with built in centralised services, ample heating and lighting which were the answers to a SEngO's dream at a certain RAF aerodrome. No houchins clattering away, leaking hydraulic rigs, cold and draft - the lads thought all their Christmasses had come at once.

A fine station indeed; many would say the best in the RAF of the 1980s.

That was RAF Chivenor, aka 'Heaven in Devon'. So they closed it and gave it to the Royal Machines...:rolleyes:

[Flt Lt Spry]

Now, there's a very good reason for all of this. And for those of you who don't have the pleasure of dining with DCinC STC very often, let me explain:

The RAF has a Strategic Vision right? This is a forecast of what's to come in 20 years time and so that's what we have to start being like now, OK?

The Strategic Vision takes about 5 years to instigate. Comprendez?

But they invent a new Strategic Vision every 4 years. So that's why the old one is no good. Simple.

When DCinC told me this story, he used a few longer, more complicated words. But that's roughly it.

[lippiatt]

Served at St Athan a number of years ago but haven't been back for a while - could someone tell me which part of the site the superhanger was built on please?

Thanks

[Truck2005]

Right on top of the area where the pitch was grown for the National Stadium:eek:

[tonkatechie]

Many are the tales of boxes of bits from attempted / botched repairs appearing at DARA workshops.
I'm sure they're just as numerous as the tales of jets turning up to Sqns with numerous faults discovered on acceptance, or after the first flight...
Apologies if that sounds like mud-slinging, but let's not put on our rose tinted specs here. That said, I feel for the poor guys whose jobs are on the line / gone, especially when there's precious little aircraft work about, and a whole load of ex-mob redundees looking for it too!:(

[tucumseh]

Tonka

Attempting to, and failing, to conduct a level of repair that you are not cleared to do – thereby compromising safety and risking loss of the asset - is not quite the same as finding faults on acceptance from an authorised repairer; but your point is taken.

I agree with your sentiments about the workforce, many of whom will in the past have uprooted and moved to, for example, St Athan. I do indeed think fondly of these workshops, but then in blacker moments remember more recent times when they were run by some real non-entities. I’ve said this before – I’ll never forget the idiot at Fleetlands who declined a huge amount of work, declaring “We do not regard MoD(PE) as a customer”. Perhaps with better leadership they wouldn’t be in this situation, although the politics would probably win out in the end either way.

[tonkatechie]

Attempting to, and failing, to conduct a level of repair that you are not cleared to do – thereby compromising safety and risking loss of the asset - is not quite the same as finding faults on acceptance from an authorised repairer; but your point is taken.

I wholeheartedly agree. My point was really in response to your point of there being a skill void as a result, (a point which I also agree with you on) a skill fade that has come about from Service personnel not having done such deep maintenance for a long time, if ever. With the advent of LEAN (or rather, what the RAF wants to call LEAN, as opposed to what it should be) it's going to be some time before we get back up to speed again. What a shame that this has come about after such a massive investment at St Athan, money and materiels that could have (with hindsight regarding the move of work to other units) been better spent elsewhere.

[Washington_Irving]

Now, there's a very good reason for all of this. And for those of you who don't have the pleasure of dining with DCinC STC very often, let me explain:
The RAF has a Strategic Vision right? This is a forecast of what's to come in 20 years time and so that's what we have to start being like now, OK?
The Strategic Vision takes about 5 years to instigate. Comprendez?
But they invent a new Strategic Vision every 4 years. So that's why the old one is no good. Simple.
When DCinC told me this story, he used a few longer, more complicated words. But that's roughly it.

Strategic vision. Hmm, think I had one of those once after 1/2 a bottle of absinthe. Would that be the same thing?

Tonkatechie, I'm also wondering if the majors are taking longer, whether it was due to there being fewer bods at Marham to do the work. (Honestly don't know- but it would seem an obvious explanation.)

[teeteringhead]

Don't think the extra blokes have arrived at Marham yet - not that there's any accommodation for them there.

Last I heard was that they'd be accommodated in spare accomm and FQ at Colt - with a bumpy 'bus ride through the country lanes to start and end the day ...

.... not that many would use the 'bus of course .... but as there is a 'bus, then there ain't no H to D!

[Jobza Guddun]

Don't think the extra blokes have arrived at Marham yet - not that there's any accommodation for them there.
Last I heard was that they'd be accommodated in spare accomm and FQ at Colt - with a bumpy 'bus ride through the country lanes to start and end the day ...
.... not that many would use the 'bus of course .... but as there is a 'bus, then there ain't no H to D!

Which would be infinitely better than the 32 Man room (yes, you read correctly) that the majority go into on arrival in the swamp. A lucky few get moved out each week but there are never less than 30 people there, and they have 2 showers of which only one works properly. An utter disgrace in 2006.:mad: :mad:

Meanwhile, back on thread.....

[Washington_Irving]

Hmm, Marham. Tell me chaps, do you reach a point during your posting when you can no longer notice the smell of the pigsh1t from the neighbouring farms? Was just thinking that a bus ride to work down bumpy lanes with a raging hangover and the smell of Porky's air biscuits wafting through the air must be delightful. IMHO the A47 between Kings-Lynn and Norwich has to be the smelliest stretch of road in the UK.

[tonkatechie]

Tonkatechie, I'm also wondering if the majors are taking longer, whether it was due to there being fewer bods at Marham to do the work. (Honestly don't know- but it would seem an obvious explanation.)
Can't speak for Marham as I've only had the 'pleasure' a couple of times (Q course and a LEAN analysis) and I work further north on the light grey pointy version.... much the same though in that the pressure's on to get servicings carried out quicker with the same number of guys and maintaining the flying programme. Biggest problem is the changes to the supply system which although good on paper, haven't been thought / acted out properly. I'll be quick to point out that this isn't a cheap dig at the stackers - they're just as in the poop as everyone else these days and desperately trying to get the job done. It doesn't help them when the LEANing takes the stacker off each squadron, puts them into a 'call-centre' (read: Tech Stores) and ends up with one poor guy answering the phone to all the demands from all the units on station, promising that the demands will be 'on the next wagon'. Surely the whole point of the people at the wokface having everything to hand means that we shouldn't be having to go off to the phone and wait in line behind everyone else on camp?:confused: At least they've given us our C-stores back!

[philrigger]

"At least they've given us our C-stores back!"

What? If this is true why did 'they' take away the C-stores in the first place?
Have all the reasons for not having C-stores on hand gone away suddenly?
How are they controlled now?


'We knew how to whinge but we kept it in the NAAFI bar.'

[mary_hinge]

http://icwales.icnetwork.co.uk/0100news/0200wales/tm_objectid=16617401&method=full&siteid=50082&headline=defence-workers-to-hold-privatisation-protest-name_page.html

Defence workers to hold privatisation protest Jan 23 2006
Defence workers will stage a huge demonstration this week to protest at the threat to jobs by the increasing privatisation of services.
Union leaders warned that thousands of jobs could be lost and millions of pounds of taxpayers’ money was being “squandered” by Government policies.
Hundreds of workers from across the UK will stage a protest in central London on Wednesday, accompanied by a Scottish pipe band.
Mark Serwotka, general secretary of the Public and Commercial Services union, said areas being privatised included the training of tank drivers, linguistics, avionics and engineering.
“Defence workers feel a sense of betrayal by these cuts, which are politically driven just to save money,” he said.
“Political decisions are taking no account of the effect on services because of this mad scramble to cut jobs.
“Hundreds of unsung heroes will demonstrate their anger on Wednesday at how they are being treated by the Government.”
Meanwhile, union officials are to meet defence workers across the country over the next few weeks to prepare for an industrial action ballot in protest at the controversial decision to close an aircraft repair site at St Athan in the Vale of Glamorgan, South Wales, with the loss of hundreds of jobs.
Unions said the decision would cost the taxpayer millions of pounds and could put the Armed Forces in jeopardy.
A joint union statement said: “We believe that these plans will, at the very least, result in greater expenditure and heavier reliance on monopoly private suppliers.
“At worst, it represents an attack on the ability of our armed services to function and may jeopardise frontline armed services and service personnel safety.”