What would you do in this situation??

[Big Kev]

Your flying in the outback for some operator and you have been rostered to fly a day charter trip with 5 paxs on board.

You notice that while out at some dicky knee airstrip whilst your paxs are swimming at the local waterhole, your propeller has a slight crack in it.

You only have a few food and water supplies on board and your paxs will be keen to get back after there big day.

Do you:

1.) Call maintenance (assuming you can get in contact with them!) and ask for a engineer to be flown out?

2.) Take off and hope for the best and pretend to realize it when you landed so your peers and boss don't think your a goose or a threat to safety.

3.) Do some full power run ups, varying the pitch and power to see if the vibration or anything else is an issue and then make the call?


Are there any rules which state the conditions that a pilot has to consider with regards to the propeller? If so can you point me in that direction.....


Cheers

[king oath]

Hey Kev. I thought you carked it recently on the Gold coast. Good to see you're still around.

[Captain Sand Dune]

Not sure about specific rules WRT props, but if I found anything that didn't look right and I was unsure about, I'd be contacting maintenance. I think it's called "duty of care"....

[gaunty]

Correct Answer = No. 1 DO NOT ACCEPT ANY OTHER ANSWER FROM YOUR EMPLOYER.

If its got a crack ANY crack, you're not going anywhere until it is replaced or an engineer has inspected the crack and dressed it out, if it is possible, within the propellor manufacturers specifications.

Are there any rules which state the condition........ see above including leading edge dings.
It is unlikely the crack just "appeared".
THE most important part of your preflight IS the propellor. You could say I'm paranoid about it particularly if there are other people flying the aircraft.:ok:

You only have a few food and water supplies on board and your paxs will be keen to get back after there big day better to be a bit thirsty and hungry than dead.:cool:
If all or any part of the blade comes adrift during flight it will most likely take the engine out of the frame, the C of G goes way aft of the tail....... it's all bad news after that:sad:

You had to be on the frequency yonks ago and hear the guy trying to deal with the above, to know that this is a place you do not want to go.:{

[bushy]

The centrifugal force on propeller blades is many tons. Cracks definitely make it U/S immediately.

[JetABro]

It might not only be the prop thats cracked, there might be more damage closer in near the hub.
I remember about 3 or so years ago now there was a 210 that hit a dog (ok so more than just a chip, but still dealing with props and uncurtainty), after a few tests by the pilot he flies the plane and on shut down one of the blades ended up fully feathered, on a 210 it's not a good thing. The pilot was very lucky to land.
My money would be on making the call to LAME.:ok:

[ITCZ]

What a bunch of girls. Give it a go mate. Just make sure you have your hand on the mixture at all times, ready to pull it back real quick like, coz if you do lose even an inch or two off that spinning prop, the imbalance will wrench the engine right out of its mountings and you will be going down like a cheap Thai hooker coz the airplane just got a ****load lighter and the CoG is way aft without that heavy donk, so your tailfeathers are just about useless.

Aaah, feel better now. Back to business.

Here are some tips I was given during training/hard experience in a couple thousand hours on 210/206.....

1. Do the same checks every time, every day. Don't rush or skip. When you do and inspect the following, you are building familiarity and routine. Knowing how something looked and felt that last hundred times you inspected it makes you more able to spot anything unusual.

2. If something doesn't look right, it probably isn't.

3. If you see something that makes you nervous or concerned, act on it.

4. Just about all the props on all the 210/206/402 I flew were 3 bladed CSU. First you would make sure the mags and switches are off before you start your preflight.

5. When you get to the prop, treat it as live. Oldie but a goodie. You will need two arms and two legs to fly that Airbus later.

6. Run your fingertips along the leading edge of each blade to feel for roughness or nicks. Eyeball both surfaces of each blade, leading and trailing edge as well. If it dark, you will be using your torch, wont you? (amazed how many times I have seen pilot 'inspect' their airplane in the dark with no torch, jesus wept.)

7. Inspect the spinner, look for cracks or damage, missing screws/bolts. Note any weeping of CSU oil along blades or on spinner. Look for any weeping or puddles of anything fresh under your aeroplane.

8. Grab each blade with two hands, one on the leading edge one on the trailing edge. Firmly attempt to rotate it from 'fine' to 'coarse.' There should be little to no play in each blade.

9. Grab one blade with two hands, usually the downward pointing blade if the prop has been 'dressed' and give it a firm pull forward and aft to see if there is any play there as well.

10. The first two or three times you do this, swallow your pride and go get an engineer and ask about anything you are unsure of. You want to get a feel for what is good and what needs attention.

I'm not chuck yeager, but that kept me alive for my 4 years/3000hr in pistons. There's probably some things i have forgotten to add. I'll come back and add them if/when I remember. Cheers.

[MOR]

Lost a prop blade once on a turboprop, before we could even think, the out-of balance forces had ripped the engine out of it's mounts. When we landed, it was hanging by the wiring loom and assorted pipes.

If you lose a blade in a single-engined aircraft, you will almost certainly lose the engine as well - it isn't held in by much. If you lose the engine, you have about 1-30 secs to live (depending on altitude).

[Capt Claret]

MOR

Would that have been on a flight SY-TW? Losing the blade that is.

[distracted cockroach]

Umm, MOR, I think ITCZ was being deliberately facetious with his initial comments.
Surely no-one would think he was serious....would they??:eek:
Lighten up huh?

[Capt Fathom]

Get out the hacksaw and cut all the blades off at the same point. Be carefull during the ensuing takeoff as you will have to carry out a reduced power takeoff in order to keep the RPM within limits. :E

PS .. bury the evidence before departure! :uhoh:

[MOR]

Well I was being facetious too, but I guess woomera didn't get it. That's PPRuNe justice for you ;)

The lost blade was between Glasgow and Belfast City (UK) in a Shorts 360, at night, in nasty weather. It later transpired that the prop had a falsified logbook and had been imported from South America after a dodgy repair.

[Chimbu chuckles]

Hey Fathom....that'd be the 'Max in the Baron' effort wouldn't it:ok:

On a more serious note I am wondering why anyone with a licence and minimal intellect has to ask such a question.

[tinpis]

Tin still has a very powerful magnifying glass given to him 30 odd years ago by a ginger beer to keep an "eye on" a propellor crack.

I cant begin to tell you how hard that was in flight. :hmm:

[karrank]

Following from the book Voyager relates a story about Jeanna Yeager in a Long-EZ:

"...I really had the engine cranking when I lost about 60% of one prop blade. The vibration was terrific-it shattered instruments and punched holes in the engine cowling."

And this was a little aircraft with a little engine and a timber prop.

[tipsy2]

Big Kev, considering all the technology, dye penetrates and the like LAME's invoke to check out a prop, seeing a crack with the naked eye means that prop is well and truely past its use by date.

I don't believe any mature pilot needs to ask such a question either. Call it duty of care, self preservation, professionalism, airmanship or anything else you like, none of my pilot associates would operate an aircraft as you hypothetically describe.

Again, if you really need to ask the question, you should not be flying yet as PIC.

tipsy:yuk:

[ITCZ]

Did i miss out on a bit of Pprune argy-bargy? Damn. MOR, please PM your original :)

Tipsy2, I agree with you, but we were all new once. Boggy GA pilots receive less quality supervision (sometimes nil) these days. They don't do face to face with met officers and flight service officers, they don't submit flight plans, there isn't operational control etc etc.

They do visit here though, hopefully they get a bit of the message.

[VH AMF]

If you see a crack in the propeller, than you don't take off, you will indanger the lives of your passangers and yourself. Common sense will take you far. And at the temperatures of the outback in Australia, the heat and the vibration would surely add twice as much damage.

[Sedgster]

Say you do take off with a crack, not only losing your engine & prop. Obviously. If you crashed think about the money, repairs and being sued by the surviving paxs. :ooh:

[Capt Fathom]

..that'd be the 'Max in the Baron' effort wouldn't it I thought it was a 402, but hey, after all these years.......who cares :rolleyes:
..and to all you aspiring young bush pilots, it's a myth, pay no attention to Uncle Chimbu! :E

[tipsy2]

ITCZ, there is 'Operational Control" and its responsibility is vested fairly and squarely with the PIC.

The ability to properly exercise that responsibility is not found in those who's training has not given them the answer to the hypothetical posed by Big Kev.

tipsy

[Aerodynamisist]

Go for option 1, then go for a swim with the pax
If you can't get a phone call out as a last resort call up an over head RPT on area or even on 121.5 and get them to relay a message for you.

Prop filing is not approved pilot maintanence but you can get a maintenace approval for it by getting a lame to show you how its done then a few props filed with him watching then filling out the casa paper work (form xyz 123 I can't remember the reg number but some one here might know it) get a shedule of experiance signed by the lame and your set. don't file props if you havn't been shown how and signed out !! you could do more harm than good.

[tipsy2]

Pray tell how you file out a crack in a prop?:eek:
This answer will be a beauty for sure:8

tipsy

[MOR]

Just use an angle grinder... :}

[DeltaSix]

Tell the LAME and tell your boss to bring in another aircraft to ferry the paxs and yourself home. Mark the maintenance release as U/S - End of story.

D6

[rmcdonal]

If you can see a crack then the prop is well and trully fckd.
But if its just a big stone chip :rolleyes: , then you need to use your better judgment (call the CP and ask his opinion). Most props have no worries with a bit of gravel rash (or else most NT aircraft would be out of action).
But a crack is bad :\ and not worth even thinking about flying.

[TurboOtter]

In this scenario is there beer????
If so I would call for another aircaft and drink beer. Let the chief pilolt decide what to do.
If no beer, well find a log, carve out on new prop and duct tape it on to the old one! Stuctural support!!!!!

If it were a 402, just use the spare engine to get home, that is why they give your two engines isn't it???