People going sick.

[Mr Wippy]

In todays age of cost cutting, End to End, Lean and manpower losses, isnt it time the RAF, and the MOD introduced a set period of payed sick leave?

Obviously the people that are genuinely sick are looked after, but the pi55 takers are hit in the pocket.

[FOMere2eternity]

Wippy,

Just the other day I was listening to the Post Office problems - they have lots of 'sickness' and have resorted to running a rewards scheme for people who show up for work. Turn up for work consistently over a set period and you can win a car! Oh yeah, they also pay you too!

Fortunately we're not in that situation yet but the more w@nk ideas the bosses come up with - my forthcoming favourite is the annual shovel sand from one box to another test - the more likely it is to happen.

In your situation I would do two things: run your own rewards scheme when it comes to someone needed for a nice (and not) det, friday afternoon stand down etc. Also, make it quite clear to Bloggs that if he's seen anywhere other than his room and the mess at meal times he'll be charged. Reinforce this by telling him 'duty of care' means you'll have to send people to infrequently visit him to make sure he's ok. After 14 days in the block, work will be a dream come true!

[Mr Wippy]

The trouble is we all tread a very thin line thats constantly getting thinner with regards to 'bullying or harrassment'.

I have had one of female JNCO's around to the SAC's room (she is a female), and the SAC came to me to ask why she wasn't trusted !!!!!!!!!!!

Gone are the days of 'you are fizzed, give me ur 1250 and get down the guard room'

In fact, its more hassle nowadys to charge someone. You now have to write 'witness statements' and the paperwork is such a bind.

What is the RAF coming to?

[insty66]

Mr W
Firstly my commiserations.
What you need to do is write truthful apraisals, and every time this individual slips below the standards that the rest of his workmates set, inform him, in writing getting him to sign that he has been appraised of his shortcomings, keeping a signed copy on file and a copy for him.
I know it is extra pain for you but this is the only way you can a give him an overall 1 thus preventing an annual increment:E It also has the added bonus of compiling evidence for possible future admin action
One of two results should follow this course of action
either he bucks up or he's dimissed:)
You'd be doing everyone a favour:ok:
Good Luck
ps if you can catch him out of quarters whilst he's siq might help too:ok:

[Pontius Navigator]

Get the Doc on side. They don't like being messed around either but, like you, they need to play safe. Is it the same, or similar, problem? Get your line management at the same level to talk to the docs. Is it always the same doc or always different?

Speak to the Chief Clerk, WO, OC PSF etc. They will ensure the proper admin protocols are followed.

There may be a case for a psyciatric review and environmental posting. A formal warning may solve the problem too however it also means they cannot get posted.

We had a WRAF (as was) who came to us and we discovered that she had been refered to the shrinks. The doc also told us the gist of the shrinks report. It made the world of difference on how she was treated - I won't say more. She was ultimately given a formal warning whereupon she played the environmental card. This time we made sure her new WO was fully briefed.

She left the RAF 3 months after the posting. Oh and she had 4 A levels.

[FOMere2eternity]

Oh and she had 4 A levels.

Pontius,

Are you suggesting we need to keep a particular eye on junior ranks with qualifications? ;)

[Pontius Navigator]

FOMere,

Now you come to mention it, yes. In the first woman's case it probably meant she was bored rigid with the job and her coworkers.

I know two others. One was potentially suitable for a commission but she had a fixed view that first you needed to be commanded before you could command. Very socialist.

The other was not suitable for a commission but definitely NOT qualified for the job she had. The recruiters had grabbed her in but then risked boring her with the wrong job.

So yes, do watch the bright ones and make sure they are properly encouraged and mentored even if it might appear to lead to favouritism. There are only so many openings available to 'star' and it is up to you to make sure you use all the skills and attributes of your workers to the best of their ability.

[Mr Wippy]

Get the Doc on side. They don't like being messed around either but, like you, they need to play safe. Is it the same, or similar, problem? Get your line management at the same level to talk to the docs. Is it always the same doc or always different?
Speak to the Chief Clerk, WO, OC PSF etc. They will ensure the proper admin protocols are followed.
There may be a case for a psyciatric review and environmental posting. A formal warning may solve the problem too however it also means they cannot get posted.
We had a WRAF (as was) who came to us and we discovered that she had been refered to the shrinks. The doc also told us the gist of the shrinks report. It made the world of difference on how she was treated - I won't say more. She was ultimately given a formal warning whereupon she played the environmental card. This time we made sure her new WO was fully briefed.
She left the RAF 3 months after the posting. Oh and she had 4 A levels.

another problem with this is that the RAF use so many civilian doctors that 'seem' to be very easily convinced.

[Pontius Navigator]

Mr Whippy, that indeed may be a problem however they all went to the same medical school and soon get pissed off with lead swinging.

In the case I mentioned the doc was indeed service and I was astonished by the candour displayed. The airwoman must have pissed the doc off right royally.

Short answer, nothing ventured nothing lost. Get someone to talk to the doc.

[Big Tudor]

Mr Wippy,

A lot of civilian organisations are now adopting a far harder approach to casual sickness; it has been a bane to a lot of companies for a long time.

Both companies I have worked for recently have adopted formal procedures for dealing with repetitive / inappropriate amounts of sickness. After 3 instances of absence due sickness an individual is given a one-to-one interview with their line manager. After a further 3 instances of sickness a further interview is held, this time with line manager and also a representative from the HR department. The basis of the interviews is to adjudge whether the individuals work or workplace is contributing to (or to blame for) the sickness, and also to offer support and assistance in the return to work. Should the work prove to be unsuitable for the individual then alternative positions can be offered, or ultimately their contract is terminated!

Whilst dismissing employees for sickness is still fraught with pitfalls, employers are learning to 'work the system' to their advantage. As has been said before, get PSF involved. The last thing you want is a harrassment claim against you.

[southside]

This individual is not interested in being part of a team

Good god man....you say you are a SNCO....then bloomin act like one. Have you encouraged him to be part of the team...(Remember "The team works"). Have you interviewed him, made him feel part of the team ? Or...have you acted like a complete and utter weak kneeded SNCO and ostrasised him from your unit. Get a grip of your section and do what your paid to do - Lead your men.

[Maple 01]

Big Tudor

Having just transferred to the civil service let me explain how it works and why there is so much 'sickness' there

I live about 20 miles from work, during the recent snows on the Friday I was at my desk, white stuff descends from the heavens -

Me - Boss, looking at the met it's going to get worse, is it OK if I get off?
Boss - er, well, I'm not sure, em, well, it might thaw, er no
Me- OK, if we do get snowed in will you authorise a hotel for tonight?
Boss - oh, er no, well, go if you think it would be best

Next week
Boss - are you going to take a half day's leave for last Friday?

Now someone pointed out that if I'd said I was sick I could have just gone, spineless line-manager wouldn't have had to make a decision

Last year, similar thing whilst serving out my time at a well-known station that's just about to have a closing-down sale

Boss - Maple, it's snowing like bu@@ery, you're not doing anything that's vital to the defence of the western world, sod off home

Me - are you sure?

Boss - are you still here?

Difference between a good boss and an @rse, also the different cultures - In my experience in the RAF you have to be dieing before being written off, in the 'real world' sickness covers a multitude of sins including incompetent man managers who’ve never heard of ‘duty of care’

[southside]

Exactly....please take note Mr Wippy....Difference between a good boss and an @rse....which one do you think your team think you are??????

[The Gorilla]

Southside

Well said and exactly what I was about to write. He calls himself a SNCO but has he counselled the guy, found out if there are any root causes to his problem? Probably not because it is so much easier to label some one with the "not a team player" or the old "Hasn't risen to the challenge" tags. If you get a sick chit signed off by an MO that's the end of the matter and putting the WO Medic on the spot is outrageous. Even in the RAF there is such a thing as Medical In Confidence!

Good grief Mr Whippy should be ashamed of himself, admitting defeat on a public forum. What kind of rubbish is the GST 2 factory turning out these days??

What trade are you in Mr Whippy?

:mad:

[November4]

Well someone must think he is up to the job because they have signed off the TATS to enable them to get their SACs...........

[insty66]

SS & Gorilla.
I could understand it if MrW had said his entire section was swinging the lead but he clearly stated he has only 1 "case" You both clearly have no idea as to his current situation, I don't need to know his trade I know his situation, and just how hard it is to "council" someone who is quite simply not interested.
You cannot turn these people round with a damn good bit of councelling it is a long and frankly boring process......but if you never tell someone they're going wrong how will they ever know? hence my suggestion for a paperwork trail.

[Mr Wippy]

Good god man....you say you are a SNCO....then bloomin act like one. Have you encouraged him to be part of the team...(Remember "The team works"). Have you interviewed him, made him feel part of the team ? Or...have you acted like a complete and utter weak kneeded SNCO and ostrasised him from your unit. Get a grip of your section and do what your paid to do - Lead your men.
thats a bit harsh considering that you know only what I have posted on here. Who the fcuk are you to condemn my managerial skills?

[Safety_Helmut]

New Year, same old Southside ! :mad:

Bloke comes on, with a reasonable request for some advice from the forum, unfortunately, you're online !

Still learning the ropes in the Air Cadets are you Southside ?

SH

[The Gorilla]

Insty

I agree with your paper trail idea and that should be natural to any SNCO wishing to protect his 6, however and I will apologise if proven wrong, Wippy seems to be washing his hands of this lad. Statements like "Now, I know the individual is taking the ****." give me the impression that he has absolutely NO idea what might be going on in his life! Med Centres, despite civilianisation are not stupid, they keep records etc and I know from my own experience that they will lie to protect a patients confidentiality. And of course Wippy may only have 1 subordinate to deal with!!

:)

[SirPeterHardingsLovechild]

southside & The Gorilla

The search facility is down, so I can't investigate why you have made such stupid comments. My insults will have to wait.

You are clueless.

[The Gorilla]

Sir Peter

Me? I just love agreeing with Southside!!

:O

[SirPeterHardingsLovechild]

Well, I think you owe Mr Wippy an apology.

[Runaway Gun]

There is the likelihood that military personnel DO get sick, it IS confidential, and the Supervisors wouldn't actually understand the possible complex problem even if they had it explained to them. There must be a better way than simply assuming the guy/girl is taking the p*** out of the system.

Unless the Boss is medically trained, has access to the files, and has medically examined and questioned the patient, I am of the opinion that the Boss has no right to speculate or gossip the case.

Would aircrew accept PSF staff questioning their decision to divert? I think not.. :hmm:

[Mr Wippy]

The whole point of this thread was not to slate my SNCO ability, but was purely to get people opinions of the current sick leave entitlement.

I think that where people are PROVEN to be extracting the urine, then the medical centre should not fall for it every time.

[DaveyBoy]

You searched for all stupid posts by southside? No wonder the facility's gone down, man! When it comes back up, save yourself some time by displaying all posts by user :E

[Now a 'J' Bloke!!]

Go for it Sir Peter;:ok:

Southside is/was/always will be a little outspoken, as those that generally talk sh1*e are generally the noisiest.

Could do with a bit of banter...there doesn't seem to be any Movers around.

Mr Wippy...Good luck with your bod. Brick walls are always nearby to bounce your head off.....

Regards to Most...SFS:cool:

[Mr Wippy]

Go for it Sir Peter;:ok:
Southside is/was/always will be a little outspoken, as those that generally talk sh1*e are generally the noisiest.
Could do with a bit of banter...there doesn't seem to be any Movers around.
Mr Wippy...Good luck with your bod. Brick walls are always nearby to bounce your head off.....
Regards to Most...SFS:cool:

And before Southside chirps up, NO im not a mover:)

[propulike]

Would aircrew accept PSF staff questioning their decision to divert? I think not..
Quite right. Ops, Gp and STANEVAL are more than enough for that task already.

As for an ongoing med problem that stops someone pulling their weight - every time I've come across that on the aircrew side the person has TALKED to their mates, that's what being part of a team means. Malingerers do more damage than just not turning up, they kill team spirit in the whole section - do the paperwork and get rid. If there is a genuine med problem then that'll come out in the wash and you'll STILL get rid and get a proper worker in instead.

[The Gorilla]

Wippy

Glad to hear you are not a mover! Sorry if I have rattled your cage and I apologise, no I didn't read that bit about you managing 20 because I didn't have my glasses on!!

Back to your problem then, you aren't going to get rid of him in the short to medium term are you? It's almost impossible to get shot of such a problem and getting him posted just makes it some one else’s yes?

What does your upper chain think? Do you have the support of those two or three commissioned ranks above you? If not it's cricket bat time for you. I had a similar problem in an R12 in the late 80's. My lot said he's on your watch you sort him Sarge. Our only solution back then was to bend over backwards to make the **** a team member. That meant briefing every other team member to make allowances for the weakest link. He needed close supervision at all times. To cut a long story short my guy had serious personal and medical problems, which in the end required an admin discharge.

What I can tell you about the industry I am in now is that we have a three strikes and you are on a discipline rule. It works like this, in any rolling 12-month period you are allowed two sickness absences. After the third you are dragged straight in to a formal hearing with a Manager and a Human Resources guy, Union reps usually attend. Even so it has proved almost impossible to stamp out the culture whereby certain guys seem to think they are entitled to at least 3 weeks off a year for sickly purposes. After six months we go from full pay to half pay and after another six months we go onto SSP. I have found that this makes no difference to the professional sickies as they usually only have 2 to 4 weeks off at a time.

As for the current RAF sick leave entitlement,that's a hard one. Problems like yours are few and far between. It really is up to the Medics to sort him out and if he really does have serious medical problems they are obliged not to tell you. In certain cases they will lie on the Fmed form that comes to you. But they will know if he is just a malingerer!... and sort him out eventually.

:)

[Mr Wippy]

Wippy

Glad to hear you are not a mover! Sorry if I have rattled your cage and I apologise, no I didn't read that bit about you managing 20 because I didn't have my glasses on!!

Back to your problem then, you aren't going to get rid of him in the short to medium term are you? It's almost impossible to get shot of such a problem and getting him posted just makes it some one else’s yes?

What does your upper chain think? Do you have the support of those two or three commissioned ranks above you? If not it's cricket bat time for you. I had a similar problem in an R12 in the late 80's. My lot said he's on your watch you sort him Sarge. Our only solution back then was to bend over backwards to make the **** a team member. That meant briefing every other team member to make allowances for the weakest link. He needed close supervision at all times. To cut a long story short my guy had serious personal and medical problems, which in the end required an admin discharge.

What I can tell you about the industry I am in now is that we have a three strikes and you are on a discipline rule. It works like this, in any rolling 12-month period you are allowed two sickness absences. After the third you are dragged straight in to a formal hearing with a Manager and a Human Resources guy, Union reps usually attend. Even so it has proved almost impossible to stamp out the culture whereby certain guys seem to think they are entitled to at least 3 weeks off a year for sickly purposes. After six months we go from full pay to half pay and after another six months we go onto SSP. I have found that this makes no difference to the professional sickies as they usually only have 2 to 4 weeks off at a time.

As for the current RAF sick leave entitlement,that's a hard one. Problems like yours are few and far between. It really is up to the Medics to sort him out and if he really does have serious medical problems they are obliged not to tell you. In certain cases they will lie on the Fmed form that comes to you. But they will know if he is just a malingerer!... and sort him out eventually.

:)


thats better!:ok:

cheers for the advice

[Mobile Muppet]

Now a J bloke

Trust me, were still around, just watching and waiting our time ha ha ha...

MM

[Gainesy]

[QUOTE][/Malingerers do more damage than just not turning up, they kill team spirit in the whole section QUOTE]

A hearty Amen to that! Once worked with a constant whinger, when he left we had a party, he was not asked to attend.

[Echo 5]

J Bloke

" Could do with a bit of banter..there doesn't seem to be any Movers around."

Here we go then:

Mr Wippy,

Perhaps if you suggested to the rest of your team that they were having to pick up the slack left by this malingerer ( if that is what he/she is ) then said malingerer may be offered some " Peer Counselling ". It sometimes solves the problem. :)

[Widger]

If this person is really "swinging the lead" then there are regulations and ways of getting rid of them. (permanently medically downgraded = discharge if you do your homework) All it takes is for you do some homework in the APs/QRs, get the support of your superiors, write them up accordingly and within a year they can be gone.

It is worth emphasising that it is YOUR problem and YOU have to deal with it. Don't pass the buck to someone else. I am sure that you CO has a right to talk to the MOs about the fitness of his/her men/women.

Good luck

[Pierre Argh]

Maple 01 had a Boss who said... are you going to take a half day's leave for last Friday following a stand-down due to bad weather, who has obviously not read his MoD PIs which clearly state that Line Manager's can and should authorise time off in the event of inclement weather, without penalty... same with travel to work in similar conditions. Much more formal than, perhaps, the service way of doing it (i.e. it needs to be laid out in black & white)... same result!!!

[southside]

Im back and about to rant about Mr Wippy's mamby pampy still of leadership. You don't get paid to come on here and mank about your team not following you. You get paid to lead them, guide them, draw the best out of them in order to get the job done. Thats what leadership is all about. Team/Task/Individual - without those bobbies you cannot be a sucessful leader.
So, go and find your lady and try to discover what her problem is. Why doesn't she want to work for you? Are you a tyrant or just a weak kneed ineffective chap who couldn't lead his team out of a paper bag. Has she got other problems you dont know about?

You need to stop bealting on here and go and talk to your team more.

[diginagain]

Southside - post #3. The 'he' is a 'she', and you're a c0ck.

[southside]

Brilliant. I don't like your argument because its far too clever for me and it seems to be talking a lot of sense and so rather than form a coherant counter-argument Im going to verbally abuse you. Tee Hee! With a post like that you should join the RAF.

[November4]

(permanently medically downgraded = discharge if you do your homework) All it takes is for you do some homework in the APs/QRs, get the support of your superiors, write them up accordingly and within a year they can be gone.


If only it were that simple.....I have finally been discharged after being med downgraded (through no fault of mine) for the last 7 years. That was after having 3 medical boards where each time they decided that I was fit enough to stay in the RAF (UK service only and with a shed full of restrictions).

Why have I been discharged now......my 22 years were up!

The implications of a med discharge are that it will cost the services too much in medical pension so that is an absolute last resort.

[Big Tudor]

southside one indication of a good leader is someone who seeks advice when they are not sure, or perhaps you are just so perfect there is nothing new for you to learn! :hmm:

Widger Whilst I agree that it is Mr Wippys problem to sort out, you can bet your bottom dollar that if he doesn't sort it out according to a string of fluffy wuffy bunny rules then it will also be his proverbial @rse on the line when sicknote claims unfair dismissal / sexual discrimination. It's amazing how the high and mighty develop a sudden desire to wash their hands when the sh1t hits the fan! :*

[southside]

Your correct and Ive saught advice many many times. I didn't state that I was the perfect leader....possibly only Adolf himself would claim that spot, but I do think that rather than manking and moaning about Mr Wippy's staff problems he should start doing what he is paid for.

[Skeleton]

As a recent ex SNCO how, if what you are saying is true, did this guy make it to SAC?

Yes i had problem children come out of the training unit, not my problem over to you etc, but they never made it passed first base and people on this forum will back me up on that.

Who signed off his TATS?

Your problem, you solve it and lead like you were taught to do. Time for a visit to the Chief Clerk me thinks rather than asking for advice on here... its an aircrew forum. Point taken.

Rant over.

[A2QFI]

It certainly is NOT an aircrew forum, solely. To quote from the Forum Header it is "A forum for the professionals who fly the non-civilian hardware, and the backroom boys and girls without whom nothing would leave the ground. Army, Navy and Airforces of the World, all equally welcome here."

[Skeleton]

Fair point.. I will re-phrase that...

Mainly aircrew forum

:)

[Jobza Guddun]

This thread discusses an issue that has crossed my mind more than a few times, and more than a few of my oppoes have asked the question on J / IMLC, "how to deal with a persistently problematical person?" when the cards seem to be stacked in the troublemaker's favour. None of us ever received remotely useful guidance on the matter.

In the example here, if a person is a "taker", without seemingly giving anything to the team in return, their actions chip away at the morale and goodwill of their peers, and the whole effort suffers if positive action / a firm hand is not seen to be taken; unfortunately, such action appears difficult for the reason described by Big Tudor. If a person cannot be relied upon to make any effort in their job at whatever level they operate at, they should be removed as quickly as possible and placed non-effective somewhere until they are sorted out or discharged. What use would someone like this be in, say, Iraq or Afghanistan (assuming you could get them there) where everyone has to stand up and be counted?

Just because someone is a "sickie" doesn't mean they can't do a good job either, we all know someone doing just that - everybody with a shred of integrity is capable of giving something. The SAC in Wippy's situation would APPEAR to be a malingering git who thinks they're untouchable, so why not give them the impression that you're building a case for discharge, as Insty66 describes, to see if that changes their attitude? Or perhaps Echo5's peer counselling?

The officer corps always seemed to me to be happily ruthless in weeding out people who wouldn't play the game, often to extremes it has to be said. What would the advice be if this was a Flt / Sqn commander describing a Fg Off for example?

[PerArdua]

Similiar Problem last year, person was a social hand grenande tried councilling, took advice, spoke to every person I could but then had a eureka moment... Often the individual in question has an elevated opinion of their own self worth... So I used their own opinion to make them think that they should push themselves forward and get a new job with more responsibility. 15 applications later they got a new job and became someone elses headache. I had promised myself that I would manage the problem but after 18 months with the team morale falling through the floor I gave up and got rid.

PA

[Jobza Guddun]

Anything further on this one Mr Wippy? More than a few interested in the folllowup, I daresay.

[Now a 'J' Bloke!!]

Hi Gang;

She's not a Copper is she???
Or should this be on the other thread???;)

Regards...SFS

[monkeybumhead]

We have one of those that likes to play the sicknote card quite often. Would it be a supprise if I said it was one of our female counterparts? Not content with just playing the blob card.:mad:
It really hacks me off as others are always getting dicked with covering for her when she decides to play the sickie. Put the lot of them out to pasture/of their misery.;)
We also had a lad doing the same, only his sick chits were forged. His mate down the med centre was stamping them for him. Glad to say he's out now!

[Mr Wippy]

Anything further on this one Mr Wippy? More than a few interested in the folllowup, I daresay.


Well, funnily enough yes there is!

Friday, the individual came into my office and asked for a chat.

Whilst she was out, one of my other SAC's came to me and explained that the 'problem' SAC had threatened to assault him during an argument between the SAC's.

The argument was about how much work everyone was or wasn't doing, and about how much time 'certain' people get off sick.

[Safety_Helmut]

Mr Wippy

I am sure downside will soon be on to provide some more classic advice from the Air Cadet manual of leadership.

Hope it works out, but what will you say when a potential new boss rings up to ask about her ?

SH

[southside]

Mr Wippy
I am sure downside will soon be on to provide some more classic advice from the Air Cadet manual of leadership.
Hope it works out, but what will you say when a potential new boss rings up to ask about her ?
SHtell him the truth.

[The Gorilla]

Mr Wippy

No such behaviour cannot be tolerated.

Let us know how you get on with the adminers.

regards

TG

[Mr Wippy]

Mr wippy,
Perhaps you could point the individual in the direction of this thread. I am sure some lawyer could get lots of money from the RAF due to you slandering this individual on an open forum.

Where exactly have I named anyone?

[Mr Wippy]

It wouldn't be too difficult for the individual concerned to work it out.

Im just glad that the world isn't full of people as switched on as yourself.
I bow to your powers of deduction and skill:zzz:

Now go and finish your homework.:ok:

[Mr Wippy]

Are you a supplier?

are you an air cadet?

[Mr Wippy]

just wondered thats all.

No, im not a supplier, and what difference would it make if you knew my chosen trade group?

[Lord Trenchards Brat]

Mr wippy,
Perhaps you could point the individual in the direction of this thread. I am sure some lawyer could get lots of money from the RAF due to you slandering this individual on an open forum.

We can do without prats like you on here. I suggest you will be the one to go bleating to the said individual then!!!!!!!

We all have dickheads to deal with in our work place, but suggesting that they should all go crying to the legal pink and fluffy lawyers helps nobody but the legal bods increase their bank balances!:mad: :mad:

[Lord Trenchards Brat]

Oh hello. Surely the individual should have a right of redress as it is they who is being discussed here on an open forum. And whats with the insults?

Sorry but perhaps Im from the old school. Oh......was that then we all got on with the job and didn't whinge at the Chief, Sarge or Boss ..... and didn't take the pi$$ by swinging the lead and mucking your 'co-muckers' about. Military is built on good old fashion team work not bloody PC!

Is it time for me to leave????????

[Mr Wippy]

Sorry but perhaps Im from the old school. Oh......was that then we all got on with the job and didn't whinge at the Chief, Sarge or Boss ..... and didn't take the pi$$ by swinging the lead and mucking your 'co-muckers' about. Military is built on good old fashion team work not bloody PC!
Is it time for me to leave????????

I rest my case.

Hows the homework coming on Mova? Detention tomorrow is it?

[The Rocket]

Not at all Lord Trenchards Brat,

I whole heartedly agree. Do us a favour Movadinkampa747, and wind your neck in. You really have no argument at all here do you?

[Lord Trenchards Brat]

QUOTE=Mr Wippy]I rest my case.
Hows the homework coming on Mova? Detention tomorrow is it?[/QUOTE]

I'll certainly not rise to the mover bait. 100 lines 'I must spell mover right'....awe bless you!

BTW check my name out....might give a clue to you my distant past....if you know RAF history that is.:p

[Mr Wippy]

So, anyway, getting back to the topic?

Do you reckon the MOD should start coming down hard on the malingerers?
How can they do it?

discuss?

[Mr Wippy]

Who said I was a mover? Try and dissect my name and see what it actually says.
In the words of Catherine Tate
"Am I bothered?"

[Lord Trenchards Brat]

OK ......OK......we alll have them working for us.

We are subjected to morons at all levels - I agree lets come up with a generic 'flush the ba$$ards' out plan.

Any one any suggestons????

[Mr Wippy]

I reckon 20 days paid sick leave per year, after that Statutory Sick Pay.

This would save the MOD loads.

[Mr Wippy]

What about if it is an injury caused whilst on duty?

case by case basis, issued by the SMO

[Lord Trenchards Brat]

I reckon 20 days paid sick leave per year, after that Statutory Sick Pay.
This would save the MOD loads.

I wish I could agree with you (and thats honestly) but as a businesman I only offer statutaory sickpay after paying 5 days sick at full pay (thats generrous in civi world) at a level well below the the av service pay to my staff. That would indeed give a much needed incentive to the lazy gits to turn up for work. I know the sick pay calcs is more complex than that but it at least acts as a deterent.

[Lord Trenchards Brat]

What about if it is an injury caused whilst on duty?

And including Mr Whippy

That is injury based sicknes not malingering!

Good point all the same!

[Mr Wippy]

something definately needs doing. Maybe the RAF News can help?

[Lord Trenchards Brat]

There is no specific need for medical evidence to start sick pay. If the employer has no reason to doubt the sickness of the employee then SSP can be paid without medical evidence.
SSP is payable at the weekly rate of £66.15 (or at the set daily rates if a full weeks pay is not applicable) for up to 28 weeks in a year. So you are now suggesting the SMO has a say on wether we get paid or not?

Why not??

Every MD has that decision to make in the real world. Why should the MOD in the 'Accountant PC Run era' be any different? Just playing devils advocate!

[Lord Trenchards Brat]

In your original post you said the individual was downgraded. You never said what for and surely the Med centre wont downgrade someone for no good reason. Surely if they have been downgraded for so long then they should be reffered to a medical board for disposal.

Lets hope so if its deemed appropr:ok: iate.

[Mr Wippy]

Why not??
Every MD has that decision to make in the real world. Why should the MOD in the 'Accountant PC Run era' be any different? Just playing devils advocate!

I reckon that an 'Operational' pay scale should be introduced.

If you are fully fit, then you resume your usual pay scale.

If you are over x amount of days sick then you can be reduced to a 'sicky pay band'

just an idea.

[Lord Trenchards Brat]

I reckon that an 'Operational' pay scale should be introduced.
If you are fully fit, then you resume your usual pay scale.
If you are over x amount of days sick then you can be reduced to a 'sicky pay band'
just an idea.


Gets my vote....Mr Whippy for PM!!!!!!!!:ok:

[Mr Wippy]

In your original post you said the individual was downgraded. You never said what for and surely the Med centre wont downgrade someone for no good reason. Surely if they have been downgraded for so long then they should be reffered to a medical board for disposal.


and why has the individual been allowed to leave a training unit before being upgraded?

The Training units have a lot to answer for as well.

Its not just about getting the camps stats correct and fobbing the problem onwards, the problem needs to be addressed before release to an operational unit.

[Mr Wippy]

??????????????????????

[Mr Wippy]

As I said
"Hang on you said that the individual was downgraded when they arrived at your unit"


ok, see your point.

What i meant was

Why are personnel allowed to leave a training unit downgraded?

are we agreed?

argumentative? mmm

homework? mmm

[Jobza Guddun]

And while we're at it, how can people pass out of recruit and trade training having never passed a fitness test? One of them in my place of work, so it's not hearsay.

Sorry, I digress...

JG

[Mr Wippy]

:mad: And while we're at it, how can people pass out of recruit and tradetraining having never passed a fitness test? One of them in my place of work, so it's not hearsay.
Sorry, I digress...
JG

yet another instance of the Training Units keeping their stats positive?

Dont get me started on the fitness thing:mad:

[Mr Wippy]

It depends on what they have been downgraded for. Was this individual downgraded when they got to you or during training? Has this individual been classed as non-effective?


when she got to me

Not been classified non-effective.

What are the rules concerning non-effectiveness?

[Mr Wippy]

Fitness is related to the downgraded question. You never did answer my question as to whether the individual was downgraded at your unit as you originally said, or were they downgraded during training?


DOWNGRADED DURING TRAINING AND IS STILL DOWNGRADED AT MY UNIT. hope that cleared it up.

[Mr Wippy]

How could I not allow her to pass her TATS due to a downgrade?

A downgrade is a medical caveat.

She demonstrated a basic knowledge of her trade and passed all relevant exams etc related.

The fact that she was, and still is, downgraded has no bearing on her abilty as a tradesperson.

[Mr Wippy]

No need to shout. As you did originally say "On arrival into my section this LAC was downgraded" So why did you allow them to get prommoted to SAC if they are so bad.
where did I say she was 'so bad' ?

[Mr Wippy]

So now you are saying that she is able to carryout her primary role? So why would you want to have her pay reduced?

she cant deploy, and carry out her primary role whilst deployed, ie OOA

can't do CCS/Guard Training

Cant do Duty 'tradesperson'

cant do fitness test

unfit live armed guard

cant carry out certain elements of her trade that aren't covered in TATS.
(and no, im not going to give you any clues as to her trade)

argumentative? mmm

[Mr Wippy]

where did I say she was 'so bad' ? That is what you said.

So what is your problem?


come on mova, show me where i said 'so bad'

or get back to your homework, in fact shouldn't you be in bed now dreaming of your teacher and hoping you dont get bullied tomorrow.

get your facts straight before you decide to enlighten us with your wisdom.

you must be a joy to work with.

[Mr Wippy]

You intimated that she wasn't "so bad" so what is your problem with her if she can do her primary role at her unit.

The problem is that in todays ever reducing RAF, we need more than just people that can do their 'primary' job whilst at their unit, and be unable to deploy, yet still command the queens shilling the same as a 100% operational counterpart.

please stop being pedantic. A child of your ability should know better.



Does anyone else have any suggestions on this?

Should the MOD introduce SSP?

[wishtobflying]

Being off sick and being downgraded are two seperate issues. Does she come to work sometimes? If so, she is entitled to her full pay as are you. You after all signed her TATS and got her prommoted to SAC.
SSP covers you for only a period of 28 weeks for being off sick.
"sometimes"?! Good grief, what sort of show do you think you're working for?

In my civvie (government) job, you get 4 weeks Recreational Leave and 8 DAYS Sick Leave per year. If you are a poorly sort and get sick a lot, well guess what - you start taking Rec Leave to "pay" for your sick days. If you're very poorly and end up being away from work so long that you use up all your Sick AND Rec Leave, guess what - you don't get paid anymore, because you are on Leave Without Pay.

The Artful Dodgers around here play the Stress card - OOOooooeeeeerrrrr, I'm all stressed, I can't cope, but they still have to take Leave Without Pay if they use up all their rightful leave.

[Lara crofts pants]

mova747,

Once again you join a thread to twist someones words and to be generally annoying.

Mr Wippy, everyone else knows the point that you are making, and I for one, totally agree with your sentiments. If people are "swinging the lead" then they should made an example of instead of other people having to cover for their laziness - simple

LCP

[Flap62]

Mova and whippy,

This thread had some interesting points before the inevitable descent into playground squabbling. Can we please keep it on track.

[endplay]

Totally agree with the playground squabbling comment. This is a serious issue with anecdotal evidence (inevitably) that people are increasingly lead swinging to avoid their committments. The Civil service has a concept of "notional attendance" which lets staff turn up for work for a short period then go home "feeling unwell" and it's not recorded as sick time.
With JPA around the corner and harmonising of ToS - see self certifying claims- will this cheats charter become part of the military malingerers arsenal.

[Skeleton]

Back to the plot....

Medically unfit Civvy Street = Sick pay followed by No Job.

Medically unfit RAF = Job on full pay. And lots of other people suffer.

Your in a fighting force, I was in a fighting force and was deployed early three times for OOA because of sickness.

Im amazed in these days of stretch etc the powers that be have done nothing about this.

May not be there fault there sick but neither is the fault of the setion that has to carry the burden.

Downgraded should in my book equal no job unless you are upgraded within six months.

[Climebear]

Skeleton

Downgraded should in my book equal no job unless you are upgraded within six months.

Of course that would work. So Flt Lt Smith, I know that you are medically downgraded as a result of your ejection from your Tornado. I know that you only ejected after your aircraft was hit by enemy fire and you heroically stayed with the aircraft until you were sure that it would miss the nearest school/hospital/nunnery etc. I also know that there are loads of flying related ground jobs that you could be employed in productively for the remainder of your career, that would benefit from your vast amount of flying experience. However, you have now been downgraded for 6 months so you will have to leave - rules (as instigated by Mr Skeleton) are rules. Oh and by the way your mate who is fully fit will now have to be posted from a flying tour to a ground appointment thus exacerbating the gapping of pilots on front-line sqns.

Things are never that black and white.

[Pontius Navigator]

You could argue that some medically downgraded personnel should have their X-factor (deployment plus b*gg*r factor) reduced. The precedent is the FTRS guys that are either full commitment, limited or home only. The latter earn 15% less than the FC guys.

That way you have a financial carrot - get fit and earn more - get out - or put up and shut up.

[November4]

It's very easy to say if medically downgraded - get rid.

Would you differentiate between a person who was downgraded as a result of an injury whilst on duty, a genuine sickness that is no fault of the person (cancer..??), an injury that they could take action to prevent (smoking), a sports injury or an accident whilst off duty?



Also, I have to agree with Mova about posting so much detail about a problem on here. Turn the posts round and imagine how Mr Wippy would feel if his SAC was to post a question on a site asking how she could deal with SNCO who doesn't help her with becoming one of the team or something similar.

[PICKS135]

I passed my TATs, but Flt/Sgt didnt think i should be promoted [clash of personality], but Adminers went ahead and promoted me anyway. So Mr Wippy probably wouldnt have been able to withhold promotion even if he'd wanted to.

[insty66]

PN
Top suggestion, it'll never work though as it has sensible stamped all over it:*
One suggestion, start everyone at lowest level, ie no X-factor, on attestation. Then through training assess everyones level and assign them thier new pay band. Length of service issues could also be addressed at this point.


BTW doesn't a discharge due to a service "incident" attract a medical pension?

[country calls]

I was a victim of (to use the words of a Lt Col specialist) a totally unjustified downgrade. I was downgraded for nearly 18 months and in that time I exhausted every avenue to get the upgrade. I am in a job where deployments last on average 4 weeks so with a bit of judicious date massaging I missed out on nothing my fit colleagues were doing. But how annoyed would I have been if I had been out of pocket during this time?

One solution to Mr W's problem is to get everyone down to a bar and fill her and her colleagues with booze, light blue touch paper and retire to a safe distance and let the laws of natual selection run their course.

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

Is it just me or can the rest of you see the striking similarity between moventhing, southsh1te, admin guru, hyd3 et al:rolleyes:

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[Strictly Jungly]

Oh hello. Surely the individual should have a right of redress as it is they who is being discussed here on an open forum. And whats with the insults?

Oh No you have mentioned the magic "R" Word!!!

My last unit (Tri- Service)...the R word was used often by our junior service personnel.............scared the hell out of them............. Is it a management tool used at Cranditz and other training establishments?


For the record...........I am not an air cadet, mover, policeman or any other ethnic military minority!!!:)

As a caring Divisional Officer of many years...............I never once thought of posting in a forum to get answers to a particular problem....................how very very bizarre!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Pontius Navigator]

747, whist not disagreeing that even recruits might qualify for the X-factor, the precedent for removing the X-factor from recruits or at least scaling it back is in FIP.

Flying Intructional Pay was first scaled back and then stopped in the late 80s on the grounds that the guys (before dolls) wanted to fly and did not need the inducement of FIP.

Therefore we could conclude that the recruit wnats to join and thus does not need an X-factor inducement.

If the X-factor was graded and reduced under certain circumstance then more dosh could be spread where it does most good. I am not advocating X-factor for FS X cause he is in a deployable job and no X factor for FS Y cause he is in a non-deployable job. Both would get it because in themselves they are both deployable. FS X would have his scaled back if he were unfit or declined to be deployed. A small difference. Similarly Y would also have his reduced if his MES was lowered.

[insty66]

movadinkampa747
"But having your MES reduced does not necessarily mean you are not deployable."
So in that case you don't lose money! Simple really. A good incentive to get fit I'd say.

Also the financial side of sickness is clearly not just a military issue, you only have to see todays news to work that out!


I ask again "doesn't a discharge due to a service "incident" attract a medical pension?"

[November4]

"But having your MES reduced does not necessarily mean you are not deployable."
So in that case you don't lose money! Simple really. A good incentive to get fit I'd say.


And what if the medical condition is such that you cannot simply "get fit"?

At present it is the decision of the Medical Board if you are to stay in or be medically discharged. It is not the decision of the person who is downgraded. Therefore if the Med Board says you stay - then you stay (unless you PVR that is) and the rules are that you do not lose any pay.

As I have already said on here - I was medically downgraded for 7 years before being discharged at my 22 year point. I was allowed to go to main bases only (Basra and FI not included). That was the decision of the medics not me.

I have always argued that if a person is permanently downgraded then they should be discharged - end of story. But until the forces are willing to stump up for the medical pensions that will not happen and they will continue to carry those who cannot deploy/gate guard etc thus putting the extra burden onto those who can.

[Pontius Navigator]

I would say 'it all depends'. So you are medically downgraded but you don't lose out on your pay? Try telling that to aircrew.

No it depends on how you are paid. If X-factor was separated out from pay then it could be paid seperately. Someone fully fit, or fit enough, for all the SH1T jobs gets the full wack. Someone with the 'no deployments' chit has their case evaluated.

Tescos was looking to penalise sickies, why not the armed forces?

[The Rocket]

There are many jobs in the RAF that dont require you to go overseas

For example?