Why Do The Admin Branch Stand In Our Way?

[Well Travelled Nav]

Next week I have to go and collect some valuable items for my Boss from another RAF base as I do not trust the RAF supply system not to break the items.

However, I inquired what hoops I had to jump through to get the Official Duty Rate (ODR) since I assumed my task was DUTY !!

Apparently all ODR claims on my station have to be approved by OC ADMIN who apparently has only ever approved 1 previous ODR claim in his entire career (Proud Statement ?).

The Hoops
1. My vehicle must be appropriately insured.
2. In the future my vehicle could be used in lieu of service transport
(What a rule invented by someone just to stop people bothering to claim what is rightfully theirs!!)

Now I’m sure MP’s and Civil Servants do not have so many handbrakes when they are claiming duty mileage.

Why is it that Admin are always standing in the way?

Add this to why people are hacked off.

RANT OFF
WTN

[vmv2]

Why don't you ask for MT?

[charliegolf]

Or let the f*****s break the bits?

CG

[oldbeefer]

Isn't a 'Well Travelled Nav' an oxymoron?

What do you get if you cross a nav with an Air Traffic Controller?

A bad letdown at the wrong airfield!

[Well Travelled Nav]

As to why I don't ask for MT, I live out and the base I am travelling to is in the opposite direct by some distance from my home plate.

WTN

[SubdiFuge]

Collect the vehicle the night before and deliver it back the morning after. Easy really...

No wonder you're only a nav................

[Well Travelled Nav]

I think I'm getting dragged off the point. The point is, if I choose to use my own vehicle then I should get the rates I am entitled to!!

WTN

[Safeware]

Why are you 'entitled'? Why not let your Boss get his own stuff and argue his 'entitlement' with OC JAFAs.

sw

[LateArmLive]

Not when you can get a perfectly good MT wagon to do the job.

[Tarnished]

Nope, I don't think so.

I always thought that ODR was only when you were forced to use your own vehicle, as a 'thanks for bailing us out of a tight situation' from the MOD?

Just because its 'easier' for you to use your own car is not a valid reason to get the taxpayer to pay you extra IMHO.

Besides, using your own motor for something other than home to place of work business travel is probably not covered with as much coverage on you insurance policy as you might think.

Get an MT vehicle or a rental car where the insurance is covered.

Tarnished

[SirToppamHat]

Ah yes, the old 'Insurance' get out. Social Domestic and Pleasure normally covers travel to and from place of work but presumably not for the sort of journey you are planning. However, in practice, this is very difficult to establish. I asked my current insurance to explain what exactly was covered (I sometimes use my own vehicle for UK dets as it allows me far more freedom to get around the local area). The chap I spoke to explained that the way they looked at it was that if you chose to take your own vehicle it was covered. However, if you were 'required' to take your vehicle then it was not. I presume that ODR is claimable for the second type of journey, but have to say I have always thought there was too much 'interpretation' by the bosses for my liking.

Back to the rates, as at 1 Aug 05 the rate for MPs was 40p per mile for the first 10,000 miles (per year) and 25p per mile thereafter. This is the same as the ODR. The current PTR is 26.2 p per mile. The favourite trick at my last 2 units (don't know about my current one) was to allow 'costs within rail'. This allows you to take your own car (with the added benefits derived for you AND the Service) but only claim the PTR up to the rail fair.

I am sorry to admit that faced with such petty mindedness in the past I have refused to drive MT just to prove the point.

I accept it's public money and shouldn't be wasted, but I think sometimes we forget the value of our people's good will.

[BATS]

WTN

Even if you don't get the golden wheels rate, you can reclaim the difference between what the government pays you on F1771 mileage (not leave travel) and the Inland Revenue rate through your tax return. It works simply (IR 125 form refers IIRC). The Inland Revenue allows 40p/mile as legitimate expense, up to 6000 (I think) miles per year and 25p/mile thereafter and you can claim the tax relief back on the difference. By way of example, if you do 1000 miles and are paid 23p/mile you will be paid £230 by the RAF; however, the goverment allows you £400 (40p/mile). You wil therefore get tax relief 40% of the portion that the RAF didn't pay you (£68 @ 40% tax if my brain is working) as a tax credit or repayment. Your employer is obligated in law to provide you with a statement of allowances/taxable benefits paid throughout the year and you should discuss that with OC Admin and make sure you get it. It should include details of the total number of F1771 miles you completed and the rate you were paid. He/she can't dodge the requirement - it's the law ! When I was parented by Uxbridge, they automatically sent out the forms at the end of the year.

PM me if you need any more.

Regards

BT

[Confucius]

Isn't a 'Well Travelled Nav' an oxymoron?
What do you get if you cross a nav with an Air Traffic Controller?
A bad letdown at the wrong airfield!

All the morons I know are pilots.

What do you get if you cross a pilot with a cock?

Another cock.

[BEagle]

Beggar that 'use MT' thing! Unless, that is, MT is better these days than it used to be...

I once had to go from Brize to FRL at Wimborne. Told I had to use MT and was given a bright yellow Chevette estate with a collapsed drivers seat which wouldn't do more than 50 mph flat out. To cap it all, the radio had been removed 'to avoid driver distraction'....

Then there was a trip to Northwood. Allocated vehicle was an aged Mini - with no rear view mirror. "It's on order....". Asked for another, "You'll have to fill it up, sir". An hour after leaving home to collect the wretched Mini, I was driving past it again 2 fields away on the A40...

Fought like a tiger against having to use MT ever since. But when I had to go to Farnborough for a JTIDS session, when I submitted my claim (for the lower rate - Official Rate was out of the question), the beggars had knocked off 7 miles (I think) each way as my 'personal contribution'..
"But I don't claim home to duty - it isn't worth it for 8.5 miles"
"It's the rule, sir"
"Now look - I live east of Brize. The Farnborough side of Brize. I went nowhere near Brize today!"
"It's the rule, sir"
"But what if I'd said I'd driven to Brize, then retraced my steps, driven back past my house and continued to Farnborough, then the same thing coming back?"
"Ah - that would be different, sir. We'd have paid the whole journey as it wouldn't have involved home to duty"
"But that's daft!"
"It's the rule, sir"
"So, if I'd lied you would have paid me for 17 miles more than I actually drove, but by being honest you'll pay me for 14 miles less than I actually drove?"
"It's the rule, sir"

Nowadays, as mere civilian filth, if I use my car for business, I just bill them for €0.30 per km (about £0.32 per mile) at the end of the month. No proof needed, it's all based on trust and being treated as a grown up.

[Pontius Navigator]

Once had to go to another unit and no MT. Best offer was MT to Elgin and then get Buchan to pick up from Aberdeen. Buchan said f*** *ff, why should we travel twice the distance.

So, no rail, no MT and NO Fing Wheels to sign 1651. Senior bod on sqn was a flt lt (and my skipper).

I agreed to use my own car, golden miles and all, and get post-trip authorisation. I threatened to redress everyone if I didn't get paid.

Now I just claim the money and the computer pays me the same day. There is somat to be said for being one of the rule writers now.

[Talking Radalt]

'thanks for bailing us out of a tight situation' from the MOD?


I see only two flaws in the above plan.
1. MOD would never admit to being in a tight situation, and
2. MOD would never thank those who bailed them out....ever.

[doubledolphins]

Speaking from a Dark Blue point of view,do not use your car. You are not insured. More importantly neither will the things be that you are going to get.Use service transport. I always do if fetching expensive stuff I will have to sign for. However if you do go ahead, take an oppo with you so you do not have to leave car and contents unattended fof any reason.

[ShyTorque]

As far as I recall, if you use your car to carry any Service equipment not normally on personal issue to you, or drive on military business to a place other than your normal place of duty, you MUST by law be insured for business use.

And watch out for the "airside" disclaimer trump card your insurer will pull if at all possible. Had an argument about that one a few years ago when my insurance company told me I had been uninsured for the past four months when driving to work and parking.

[Mr C Hinecap]

So.....let me get this straight.....you're bitching because you want to use your own car, and you want the RAF to give you money to do so, for personal convenience. Your start and finish location for things such as duty journeys is your duty station, not your front door.

Suggest you try the pragmatic approach and give your MT WO a call and pop over for 5 min, explain the situation and see if someone with about 30 yrs experience of MT and regulations can't find a good answer.

Note to above: Best tried in a non-confrontational style :ok:

[shandyman]

So WTN . . . How do you think that went?

[Wingswinger]

Nothing changes, does it. This thread illustrates perfectly one of my reasons for leaving all those years ago. Nibbled to death by ducks. :*

[philrigger]

W T N

"Now I’m sure MP’s and Civil Servants do not have so many handbrakes when they are claiming duty mileage."

I cannot speak for MPs but the experiences of this Civil Servant working for the MoD is the same as yours. I am entitled to use my own transport if I wish but only at the lower rate. The higher rate is only applicable if the service cannot provide me with transport. As for driving MT - look up the regulations (Do not take hearsay as gospel) for the insurance rules. See if it says that if you are in an accident caused by you then you will have to claim off your own comprensive motor insurance policy! This rule applies to Civil Servants. When driving our own vehicles for duty purposes we have to be insured for such purposes. My insurance company does not regard anything other than 'home to NORMAL place of work' as covered.
PS: Is George Galloway MP being paid by us while he is (By his own choice) appearing on TV)? Surely as a matter of principle he will be on unpaid leave !!!!! If he is cut off from the outside world, how do his constituants contact him if necessary?

We knew how to whinge but we kept it to the NAAFI bar.

[maxburner]

The rules may be daft, but they are safeguarding public money. However the rules can work in your favour: we were boltholed to another airfield about 30 miles away via windy, narrow country lanes. But MT were not allowed to use said roads and had to take a 50 mile route. Ergo, the 'official'' sanctioned claim was for the MT route, so we all made out on the 6 months of home to duty.

Back to the point, for goodness sakes, get down to MT and explain the requirement. A vehicle will almost certainly be provided, and since most MT these days is designed to look icognito, the cars have improved greatly and usually have radios.

Do not use your own car. If the thousand to one chance comes up and you have a prang, it almost certainly will not be covered.

[Nibbled2DeathByDucks]

Nothing changes, does it. This thread illustrates perfectly one of my reasons for leaving all those years ago. Nibbled to death by ducks. :*

I concur :E

[ORAC]

Hmmm, remember being based at a unit with no domestic accommodation and having to live out. Only two routes to the site from off-base accom, one short one of about 7 miles, one long one of about 15 miles. Twas in the days of IRA terrorist attacks and the order came down that we were to vary our route to and from work.

Duly varied our route in every day, route selected by a toss of a coin. Put in mileage claim at end of month. Rejected - the only allowable mileage was the direct route.

I just love joined up organisations.

[WorkingHard]

Is it not the case the Admin Branch only apply the rules and do not make them. Surely if they were to allow things not allowed by the rules then they would be in dereliction of duty and could be charged. Perhaps if you dont like a rule you might find one more to your liking that overules the disliked one.

[FrogPrince]

"The truth is that many people set rules to keep from making decisions."
Mike Krzyzewski
:)
"An expert is someone who has succeeded in making decisions and judgements simpler through knowing what to pay attention to and what to ignore.”
Edward de Bono
:hmm:
I recall a similar bon mot to the effect that if you only allow people to make unimportant decisions, the decisions they make become of great importance (to them !).

[Gainesy]

I do not trust the RAF supply system not to break the items.


Would it be better to address this problem?

[The Helpful Stacker]

Would it be better to address this problem?

Indeed, or perhaps the dispatcher could do a decent job of preparing the item for move so that it could stand up to the rigours of the supply system.

Thousands of pieces of 'handle like eggs' kit manages to get to and from the unit I am at every year without any problems.

If you haven't got someone at the dispatching unit who is capable of wrapping an item up in bubble wrap and sticking it in a box full of flo pak pop down to your friendly R&D section and I'm sure that with a few tins of larger thrown their way they'll pack it properly for you.;)

[SlopJockey]

your friendly R&D section and I'm sure that with a few tins of larger thrown their way they'll pack it properly for you.;)
Now theres the real problem the bl00dy stackers are drinking "larger". Larger than what I am not sure but I would have assumed bitter was a more appropriate drink for our storemen :ugh:

[Mike Reheat]

Next week I have to go and collect some valuable items for my Boss from another RAF base as I do not trust the RAF supply system not to break the items.

However, I inquired what hoops I had to jump through to get the Official Duty Rate (ODR) since I assumed my task was DUTY !!

Apparently all ODR claims on my station have to be approved by OC ADMIN who apparently has only ever approved 1 previous ODR claim in his entire career (Proud Statement ?).

The Hoops
1. My vehicle must be appropriately insured.
2. In the future my vehicle could be used in lieu of service transport
(What a rule invented by someone just to stop people bothering to claim what is rightfully theirs!!)

Now I’m sure MP’s and Civil Servants do not have so many handbrakes when they are claiming duty mileage.

Why is it that Admin are always standing in the way?

Add this to why people are hacked off.

RANT OFF
WTN

I'm new to this site, so forgive the late input to this discussion thread.

Why bother with MT, Travel Claims..., Insurance etc. etc. Call FedEx.., they will uplift from RAF XXX and deliver next day to RAF YYYY. The goods will be insured, and you can track the consignment fom start to finish. It will cost a lot less than your time, (unless that is you are not gainfully employed in your current role...,) You will also save on the cost of MT, fuel, insurance etc. and any other costs associated with moving the items. Send the bill to OC Supply, and explain why you incurred the costs in the first place e.g. you can't trust the current supply/distribution system! No.., I am not employed by a freight forwarding company...!

Best of luck!

[The Helpful Stacker]

Send the bill to OC Supply, and explain why you incurred the costs in the first place e.g. you can't trust the current supply/distribution system!

And there's your problem. OC Supply and MT will be, funny old thing, a Supply Officer. I'd guess that saying you "can't trust the current supply/distribution system" might put his/her back up a little and he/she will tell you where to put your non pre-approved bill for services carried out under your say-so.

There are actually a number of private courier services contracted to the RAF for moving priority/v&a items etc who could probably be utilised if you were to approach this matter in the correct manner (through you unit Supply Sqn) rather than off your own back.

[WorkingHard]

and the cynic would say there's no profit in using a carrier

[tucumseh]

The Hoops
1. My vehicle must be appropriately insured.
2. In the future my vehicle could be used in lieu of service transport

Now I’m sure MP’s and Civil Servants do not have so many handbrakes when they are claiming duty mileage.



Same rules for Civil Servants. Not sure about MPs. They probably get limos. I seem to recall the way round 2. was to have named drivers on your insurance, meaning MoD had to obtain necessary fully comp insurance for your car. Unlikely. Nowadays, all you have to do is have your line manager approve higher rate in advance. Remember, admin (or "Finance") never "approve" money, they simply "endorse". Completely different thing.

[Cambridge Crash]

Whilst I think that the originator of this thread is being somewhat petulant, it gives me the opportunity to highlight a life assurance issue.
Many of you, poor churls, will have life assurance linked to endowment policies. Most policies will have a military exclusion clause, to wit, exempting the insurers from paying out if death or an incapacitating injury occurs if said injury was the result of 'military duties'. Several years ago, whilst still wearing 'light blue' I challenged my insurers on what defined military duties. In essence it was anything that happened whilst on duty. I mooted several mundane scenarios - eg being killed in a car crash on the M4 in an MT vehicle or being zapped by the elderly COMPAQ 286s that lurked in the far recesses of the office. The answer was as predictable as it was shameful: the Military Exclusion Clause would apply.
Bearing in mind that these two policies had been sold to me by an ex RN officer, who was 'accredited' to the Mess, where I signed up the two policies, I petitioned the insurer on two grounds: firstly their agent, in full knowledge of my circumstances, had sold inappropriate financial instruments and secondly, I had demonstarted due diligence as to the nature of my employ and therefore the risks entailed therein. After considerable correspondence, the insurer agreed to review the exclusion clauses on the event of my death; I have added their letter as a codicil to my will. The little faith that I had in the Capitalist system crumbled away at this juncture...

[Mike Reheat]

I would start a new thread on this topic....., there must be many serving at this time who have either accepted the clause, or have found a policy that specifically applies to current serving servicemen/women. I understood that there were some Ins companies that specifically covered our specific circumstances..... (no names as I do not wish to promote any specific company) but keep your distance from MANDRAKE in Cambridge.

[Two's in]

Proud to miss the point as ever, but if he's your boss and he's also a mate could you not suck up the 423.7 pence difference as well..., well, almost like a favour really. If he's not your mate, but still your boss, wouldn't doing this count as an extra curricular activity for your annual report, so you wouldn't have to go and fiddle with boy scouts or deploy to some dangerous Theatre of Ops like Innsworth say, in order to get promoted to AVM?
"Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do to get ODR" doesn't have quite the same resonance as the original.