International flight question

[jai6638]

Hey... I had a question... If I wanted to travel between Dubai, U.A.E and Mumbai, India on a PPL ( this is just an example.... ) , how would it work from an ATC standpoint? Do I remain in contact with the Dubai ATC who would then hand me off to the ATC in India ( or the ATC of a country i was closest to ) once i get closer to the border?

Other examples would be a India - Singapore sector, Singapore - Hong Kong, etc


Thanks

[flyingfemme]

VFR or IFR? What level would you be cruising at? It all depends......sometimes you will need HF or Satfone equipment.

Who to speak to is the least of your worries in most of the countries that you mention!

[Hour Builder]

flyingfemme wrote

Who to speak to is the least of your worries in most of the countries that you mention!

haha i agree

[IO540]

I've never done the regions mentioned, but (assuming VFR; the man said "PPL") the way ICAO flight plan distribution works is that the ATCU where the FP enters the system gets out a big thick book of addresses, and addresses the FP to various relevant ATS units en route, according to waypoints which you specified in the FP. You must have at least one waypoint in each country's airspace. Occassionally they get it wrong...

You are then expected to report by radio as you go along.

There may be a theoretical ICAO privilege to fly non-radio in Class E/F/G but in reality once one gets away from the "civilised" places they fully expect constant radio contact, so they will tell you to call the next frequency.

There are plenty of old grey pilots consuming beer in airport bars who will say otherwise, but they are probably thinking of the Humphrey Bogart movie era.

I know a certain amount about how IFR flight plans are distributed in Europe but know nothing outside that.

Overflight permits is something else, and people I know tend to use a commercial outfit where you pay some $$$ and they get the permissions for you.

Avgas is likely to be the most fun of all. I've looked at some long distance fly-outs where a bunch of people go off to some bongo-bongo land, and they either use local knowledge to make sure the stuff will be there, or they get avgas shipped out in advance, in drums. This is a very good reason for flying a turboprop.

[jai6638]

Who to speak to is the least of your worries in most of the countries that you mention!

what do you mean?

I've never done the regions mentioned, but (assuming VFR; the man said "PPL") the way ICAO flight plan distribution works is that the ATCU where the FP enters the system gets out a big thick book of addresses, and addresses the FP to various relevant ATS units en route, according to waypoints which you specified in the FP. You must have at least one waypoint in each country's airspace. Occassionally they get it wrong...

You are then expected to report by radio as you go along.




that makes sense.


Overflight permits is something else, and people I know tend to use a commercial outfit where you pay some $$$ and they get the permissions for you

however, if I file a flight plan ( & it is approved by the ATC ) and follow it, shouldnt that eliminate the need for overflying permits?

or do you have to give the ATC proof that you have the overflying permits while filing your flight plan?

I dont have a feel for how ATC works internationally so not sure how it would work...

Also, I am talking about VFR.. Would IFR make the procedure any different or easier for that matter?

This is a very good reason for flying a turboprop.

coz it has a big fuel tank?

Thanks much for your help.. appreciate it :)

[flyingfemme]

I see from your sig, Jai, that you are in the US......things are quite different in the big, wide world.

Firstly, VFR is not possible in some parts of the world.....IFR is also easier most places (less local rules to learn).

The avgas thing is simple - in many parts of the world, especially the Middle and Far East, avgas is either not available or must be ordered (often by the drum). Jet fuel is always freely available.

Filing a flight plan is not allowed, in many places, unless you have first obtained permission to overfly or land. This is usually done by country and can take up to 7 days (it also costs). You must quote the permission numbers on your flightplan form. No permission, no clearance.

As an example - to refuel in India would require 7 days to obtain clearance and still costs a couple of thousand dollars to land/handle. Before you pay for your fuel.

Your original question was to do with comms - this varies by area and altitude. Many places are only served by HF frequencies (especially over water), some have VHF at higher levels (North Atlantic, for example) and some ATC Centers have Satfone comms as well.

It's not for beginners and it's not cheap.

[IO540]

FF

"You must quote the permission numbers on your flightplan form. No permission, no clearance"

Is that true for VFR FPs? IME nobody even looks at what you put on a VFR FP; the ATC man just addresses it and stuffs it into the system, and nobody really looks at it afterwards.

There is no feedback mechanism.

There is also no en route clearance on a VFR FP. You can get turned back anytime - except perhaps outside CAS (in a civilised country).

Recently I flew past Serbia/Montenegro, through the extensive NATO airspace there. The VFR FP goes in allright; it was only when I did the usual thing (for the "less civilised" parts) and phoned up every ATCU along the route that I discovered there would be a problem with certain routes.

[flyingfemme]

I always file IFR in faroff places..........but they don't ask VFR or IFR on the overflight requests ;)

[jai6638]

I see from your sig, Jai, that you are in the US......things are quite different in the big, wide world.

thats what I thought... hence, wanna try get more familiar with what usually happens near the middle east and India...

Your original question was to do with comms - this varies by area and altitude. Many places are only served by HF frequencies (especially over water), some have VHF at higher levels (North Atlantic, for example) and some ATC Centers have Satfone comms as well.

So your essentially in contact with different ATC's ( as you enter their airspace ) on HF/VHF frequencies over water bodies?

From what i've read above, it seems like flying IFR is probably the best way to flying internationally..

I had another question which I guess a local would probably know..Lets say I'm travelling interstate in India, from Bombay, Maharastra to Udaipur, Rajasthan ( I'd be passing the state of Gujurat enroue to Udaipur ), does domestic General Aviation travel in India work the same way as in the US? with the only difference being that I would need to arrange for aviationgas at the destination airport?

Thanks guys for your help.. much appreciated :).. I apologize for asking so many questions...

[flyingfemme]

India is possibly the most bureaucratic place on earth and it's incredibly expensive to operate an aircraft. I don't know anything about domestic flying because I can't afford to pay two airports there!

I do know that a flightplan at Mumbai has to be taken (physically walked) to six different offices and stamped by each department before you can take off. In order to do this on the same day you need to rent an agent. This contributes to the huge bills. There is also a big tax on fuel - even Jet. They will also measure what you have remaining in your tanks upon entry and tax you on the contents!

Only travel GA in India if you have plenty of money, or if somebody else is paying, and you are well organised in advance.

[englishal]

Ah the beauty of bureaucratic "2nd World" countries. Still, one thing in their favour is that you can normally cross someones palm with silver and everything becomes easy :D

[jai6638]

Ah the beauty of bureaucratic "2nd World" countries. Still, one thing in their favour is that you can normally cross someones palm with silver and everything becomes easy

Ahhh yes.... Thats one thing that comes in handy in India and especially in Bombay :D:D:D...




I do know that a flightplan at Mumbai has to be taken (physically walked) to six different offices and stamped by each department before you can take off. In order to do this on the same day you need to rent an agent. This contributes to the huge bills. There is also a big tax on fuel - even Jet. They will also measure what you have remaining in your tanks upon entry and tax you on the contents!


damn that sucks....