ICAO IR other than JAA or FAA?

[IO540]

Just idly wondering about this.

Why is it that "everybody" is doing either the JAA IR or the FAA IR.

As far as worldwide IFR privileges are concerned (with the aircraft reg country matching the IR issue country) it doesn't matter which ICAO IR one is flying under. As far as Europe is concerned, the FAA IR is just another ICAO IR.

Does anyone know anything about other ICAO licenses/ratings?

I suppose maintenance would be a big issue; here in the UK one can get JAA-reg and N-reg planes worked on and signed off, but some far away reg might be a problem...

On a different tack, it's obvious that any non-JAA country that validated FAA licenses/ratings for its-reg aircraft, and did not place restrictions on aircraft residence, or on the citizinship of the aircraft owner, would make a huge amount of money operating an aircraft registry. A JAA country doing this would do even better (because no JAA member state could prevent it parking there indefinitely) but it's unlikely the JAA/EASA would permit any member state doing this.

[dublinpilot]

Well, a well known Irish business man has chosen to put his Dublin based Citation X on the P4 registrar, which is the registrar of Aruba.

I understand Aruba validates all FAA issued licences for pilots of aircraft on its registrar.

dp

[IO540]

Not really an alternative ICAO IR but interesting nevertheless!

http://www.airsafetyfirst.com/

Looking at the aircraft registered, they won't be cheap... the Cayman registry doesn't take on piston singles for example.

[Keef]

My erstwhile employer put a small fleet of jets on the Cayman register. Has to be jets, and has to operate to some pretty strict guidelines.

Not a route for PPLs, I fear.

I have heard that Hungary (which I think is now JAA) will validate FAA IRs on its aircraft. That might be another way...

[IO540]

How current is this info, Keef?

A quick google on FAA IR and Hungary turns up an article from 2002 explaining how a state which is about to become JAA can be used to convert an FAA ticket into a JAA one, using paperwork alone. You get in there before it is admitted into JAA, obtain its own (ICAO) IR on the basis of the FAA one, and then when they go JAA you are grandfathered in.

It's not a complete solution because the JAA medical requirements still have to be met on renewals, and it doesn't address the aircraft maintenance/ownership/parking issues. Poland possibly? There is a list of other would-be JAA members.

One could write to the CAA of each candidate JAA state and check this, and also check out the maintenance regime they require and parking/ownership restrictions. That's the key really; one can convert an FAA IR into a JAA IR and while it is a ridiculous process it has to be done only once per life; it is the ongoing issues that have the potential to cause constant problems.

The Church of England has a fleet of jets???

[Kyprianos Biris]

Why is it that "everybody" is doing either the JAA IR or the FAA IR.

I did the FAA one in Florida because it took me three weeks off home and back home there are FAA certified examiners.

Also my countrie's CAA accepts FAA IR for IFR flights on national reg. aircraft.

I am not sure the above are true for say an Australian IR.

My alternative was a JAR IR which would take 6 months and double the cost.

[IO540]

From Aruba:

"Please note that Aruba DCA does not register aircraft under 12,500 Lbs MTCW. Our apologies for not being able to assist you at this time."

Pretty standard for these offshore registers, I reckon.

Kyprianos: is this concession written in the Greek AIP somewhere, or is it unofficial? Presumably it is limited to Greek residents; otherwise what are the limits on aircraft parking and ownership?

[Kyprianos Biris]

Kyprianos: is this concession written in the Greek AIP somewhere, or is it unofficial? Presumably it is limited to Greek residents; otherwise what are the limits on aircraft parking and ownership?
I don't have a quote for the Greek AIP but, to make sure, I wrote them last year with a question just about this. Soon they replied in writing confirming that use of FAA PPL IR is allowed in national reg. aircraft without restrictions as long as it is for private flying (non commercial). Commercial they don't allow and need you to go national or JAR.

I believe that this is valid for flights with Greek national reg. aircraft inside other countries as well i.e. the governing authority is the CAA that registers the aircraft you fly and not the country in which it flies. I think the allowance for these terms to be valid Europewide is based on countries' / EU bilateral agreements of ICAO conforming states.

I'd be interested to know a bit more on this regarding international flights with the IR priviledges.
To recap, Hellenic CAA allows Intrument private flight with FAA IR on national reg. SX- aircraft irrespective of the country aircraft is situated. When I go abroad are the other countries bound by this HCAA acceptance ? If I go outside EU i.e. Turkey is it still the same. Is EU or ICAO the factor here ?

[IO540]

If the HCAA VALIDATE an FAA IR for a SX- aircraft then the IR privileges should be valid everywhere. I am not sure how the translation of "validate" between Greek and English works though.

This acceptance of an FAA IR by a JAA member state is completely unique in Europe.

I believe the French do/did something similar but only for a NON-French national, and with a time limit, making it almost useless. Obviously they didn't want French pilots avoiding the JAA IR.

[S-Works]

IO just give and come over to the dark side!! :D

I have just 2 more exams to complete in Feb for my JAA IR (just as it is going to be replaced!), the flying was pretty easy. Only 12 months and countingso far........

[IO540]

bose-x

You know :O that I know what is involved in converting an FAA IR into a JAA IR. That's not the issue here, despite my misleading subject header.

The "holy grail" is the combination of

a) the country of IR issue, and

b) the country of aircraft registry

with a) accepting the FAA IR, FAA certification and with b) allowing nonresident ownership and not insisting on any visits there (and preferably not requiring the stupid trust which N ownership involves).

It appears that this can be done with the Cayman and other registries, but I don't think anybody (YET) is accepting planes under a certain rather high MTOW.

There is also no great problem doing b) alone. For example Czech Rep allows most of that (through a slightly circular but probably very cheap route) but they do require JAA licenses/ratings and they don't accept FAA certification.

Some old-timers here will take the mickie but I think finding out this stuff is a good learning experience, relevant to any aircraft owner wishing to fly IFR around Europe. It pays to get clued-up.

As for me doing the JAA IR and going back to G, there is no way I will do that now unless forced.

[Kyprianos Biris]

b) allowing nonresident ownership and not insisting on any visits there (and preferably not requiring the stupid trust which N ownership involves).

Indeed. In Greece for example in order to get a SX- register, 51% of the ownership must be in Greek parties (residents) who pay taxes in Greece and declare the aircraft in their tax forms.

Now for permanent residency there are some funny criteria like no less than half of the year of residency being proven by phone/electricity bills and other sorts of paperwork. EU lack of passport control has made the above a bit ockward.

The main problem in a foreign register (except "N" where FAA inspectors are more easily found) I believe still is the necessity to have the national CAA inspectors visit and sign off the aircraft on each annual.

[IO540]

So, the pilot can live anywhere, and the aircraft can live anywhere too :O

A trust company would take care of the ownership, but presumably few will prefer a Greek based trust to a USAbased trust.