Lighting question (strobe power)

[justinmg]

This may be something Genghis knows, but anyone feel free to contribute.
I am experimenting with some lighting for a farmstrip at night. There is no mains, so the sytem will be battery and solar driven. One of the components will be a white strobe for identifying the field at a distance. This will automatically cut when on final approach, so change in accomodation and retinal sensitivity should not be a problem (hopefully).
Xenon strobes seem to be available from 2 joules to 10 joules. We would like to be able to spot the field from a couple of miles. Would 2 joules be adequate? I know it depends on other stuff like surrounding lighting, but a ball park idea would be helpful. What is the power of a wingtip strobe for comparison?

[LondonJ]

Sorry this is not an answer to your question but how are you going to get it to cut automatically?

[Zulu Alpha]

I don't have an answer to your question about which strobe to use.

However, I am also interested in setting up something to find my home strip.


Where have you seen the strobes? I would be interested to find out more.

[justinmg]

The strobe will be triggered by using the radio. Following a mike key, the strobe will fire for 30-60 seconds. If you loose sight of the field, key the mike again.
I guess the lights do not cut on final, just the 30 seconds time out.
There are lots of strobe units available, and selecting a good one out of the many I have found is the last job, everything else is pretty much ready to go.
Here are a small selection :
http://www.klaxonsignals.com/weatherproof_beacons.htm
Radio triggering gear is available from the U.S. but costs A LOT and switches mains (which we don`t have).
I have designed all the stuff from scratch to run without mains.....:cool:

[tmmorris]

Are you planning to trigger this using an aviation band frequency? If so, are you sure that's legal?

Tim

[justinmg]

If a field does not have an allocated frequency, then Safetycom is useable for making a blind calls for traffic information.
I think that having a radio receiver tuned to a frequency is legal. Others have previously said that you can listen but not act on the information, others have said listening is illegal. However, nobody would be listening. Just having a ground radio tuned to a frequency.

[helicopter-redeye]

Thinking out of the box, ... flying to an unlit/ unmanned strip at night, reliant for navigation, identification and let down on a radio triggered strobe light, possibly with no runway lighting and probably grass. Boy, you fixed wing guys have balls!


Good Christmas to all!

h-r :)

[justinmg]

Depends how you look at it. The strip will only be used upto 90mins hours after sunset, in good VMC only, and if any part of the system fails, then we have 2 international airports in within a sensible taxi ride.

[S-Works]

we have radio activated lights at our place. We use the GPS and map to get there, the lights come on and we land. A strobe is a little overkill I think.

Our lights are garden lights 10 down each side of the strip.

[Clive J]

A strobe at night would be easiliy visible, the darker it is the easier it would be to see. Think of the airliner going overhead which you can see for miles.

So my answer would be not very bright at all would be OK, (I don't know about Joules)

The only thing that would maybe spoil it would be light pollution where other lights would make it seem less significant.

[Say again s l o w l y]

You've got to be kidding me! I have no idea of the legality of such a venture, though I can hazard guess, but using garden lights!!!!

Do they conform to ICAO standards? What is the lighting layout? Are your lights on a discrete and paid for frequency for remote operation?

Seriously, has everyone had a bit too much sherry trifle? Or am I just too cautious and think you're crazy because I'm a wuss?

I personally would never use any home-made system in what is a pretty critical phase of flight. There are just too many variables that could lead to a disaster. I certainly wouldn't put myself in a situation that I feel would be "dodgy" to say the least.

Edit to add: I am aware of what some people will do to save a few quid on landing fees and a bit of inconvienience, from landing on a totally unlit grass strip with nothing but a set of car head-lights pointing at an approximate touch down point, to some things I won't mention for fear of some one daft enough trying to replicate them and ending up as the lead article in GASIL a few months later (as well as an entry in the Darwin awards).
So I'm not just being obsequious, jst hopefully giving you some food for thought.

Are you intending to have runway lights? If so, then a strobe becomes of secondary inportance since you invariably see them first rather than any strobe/beacon.

[mad_jock]

I don't know SAS. There are alot dafter things going on out there.

I believe that there is one field where they land after dark with the aid of the local prison lights.

As per say i don't think thier should be a problem if its a unlicensed strip and its only the owners which operate into it at night. If the owners gave permission to someone else to use it you could get problems if anything happens.

People have been landing at night for years and still do with the aid of flares, fires and even a lines of people with torches.

The old halifax pilot i did some retraining with for his NPPL said that it was normal only to have 2 lights one at the begining of the strip and one at the end. The object was not to land before the first one and stop before the second one. And no NGV goggles in them days.

The electronic listening out on a freqency I wouldn't think is a problem. I would use the gliders frequency as its legal for you as an aircraft to transmit on it (even though its a couple of clicks) and its is also allowed to listen to that freq without a license. And gliders shouldn't be airborn after dark so you shouldn't bother anyone.

MJ

[Say again s l o w l y]

And the accident rate for landing a/c at night during the war was.....?

Just because something is possible, doesn't make it sensible! In the event of an emergency then all the mentioned methods are acceptable, but to do it on a daily basis.
No thanks, even with well over 1000 night landings under my belt there are certain things I would rather not try. Poking the reaper with a big stick and running away being one of them.

[LondonJ]

Just because something costs 3 times more and has a stamp on it from some overly beauracratic agency doesn't mean that it is better.

Provided the lights come on and you can see the outline of the runway from a couple of miles away (very easy on a clear night) that is all that you need. If not, divert and go elsewhere.

[justinmg]

SAS,
I`m not sure exactly what you are saying.....that night landings are analagous to poking the grim reaper with a sharp stick, and running away? Yet you have done it 1000 times!!!!

Is night landing on grass just what you think is crazy?

The strip would be lit using 3 independant systems, which are unlikely to simulataneously fail.

Combined battery powered strobe and retroflective systems have been approved for used by the FAA (and the CAA I think), and are used for landing heavy metal in the States.

[Say again s l o w l y]

Night landings themselves aren't dangerous, nor is landing on grass, or a combination of both.

BUT doing it with a "home-made" system that is not checked or approved, then I wouldn't go near it with 20 ft barge pole thank you very much.

It sounds like you do know what you are doing, but when you say there are 3 independant systems are they truly seperate? What happens if there is a power failure? Do you have battery or generator back-up? If so, how long will it take to kick in? What if you are in the flare at the time?
What are your maintenance schedules going to be like? Who's responsible for it. Will your insurance company find it acceptable?

There are a great many variables and potential pitfalls. Those are akin to poking the man with the sharp object, not the act of landing at night itself.

[justinmg]

There is no external power to fail.

The strobe light is only for easy field identification at a distance and would be off for the landing.

The strip would have 14-18 separate edge lights with completely independant solar powered batteries.

The runway would be lit from 3 miles on final by retroflectors similar to those approved by the FAA / CAA, using the aircraft headlamp as source.

These items are all falable, just as anything we do is. As earlier mentioned. If any component that is required fails, then there are options available. Multiply independant systems is probably as good as could be hoped for, and much better than most of the other stuff in the aeroplane!!!

Care will clearly be needed.

[Say again s l o w l y]

Sounds as if you have thought about it long and hard.
Good luck and yes multiple systems like this are less fallible than one single source, but there are a number of problems, especially with solar powered lights, though having used them before they can often as good as the "real" thing.

Be careful, but you already know that.

[Johnm]

I don't understand the fuss. Recgargeable batteries in those lights you hang off skips parked in the street work fine as far as I can see:E

[S-Works]

Crumbs! Did I memtion I did this in a single engine as well..........

17 years and tens of thousands of landings our strip has used this system and no deaths or damage yet. If the runway lights did fail and sometimes we even simulate it we just use the landing light and land.

I sometimes think that people get way to reliant on technology, lights PAPI etc. There is no magic to landing at light! Line up with runway, set your descent rate, switch on the landing light and flare at the right time. Easy!

As far as approval is concerned, there is non required and who cares about ICAO standards, this is a private strip and if you cant land using the basic kit you are not welcome.

And with a thousand night landings under my belt I can assure you there is no drama about using it. In fact I am just in from the LAC flour bombing day after surviving another night landing.

[Say again s l o w l y]

Bose if you're happy, then fine, but personally I reckon most people should be discouraged from practices like this.

Why? For a few people this is fine, but if the majority start getting it into their heads to try it, then there will be carnage.

Night flying has no special tricks or magic, but there are many ways it can bite you if you aren't prepared or trained correctly. For example Black-hole takeoffs being one of the biggest killers.

PAPI's are usually useless for light a/c anyway, sine they invariably give guidance for an approach path of 3 deg. Far shallower than we need.

Private strips are great, but I can just imagine the call to the insurance company or the AAIB report after an accident, especially if it was due to loss of control or landing short.

Just because something is possible, it certainly doesn't make it sensible. I'm very risk averse, especially in situations like this, would I doubt my ability to make a safe approach? No. Would I have a go, no chance.
In aviation I was always taught and do teach to try and never leave yourself in a situation where one problem could end it all, basically always leave yourself an exit in the event of something unforseen occuring. i.e single engine at night, long over water crossings or aerobatics at naught feet. (Mind you in the past I have done long over water flights at night in a single engine a/c across a great white shark breeding area. Not something I'm wiling to do anymore!)

This isn't to say that we can always be safe, but I try and limit my exposure to "dodgy" situations. At the end of the day however, you are PIC, so it's up to you if you want to do it, but there are some pretty big what if's that I feel are unacceptable to me in this sort of scenario.

[S-Works]

Good on you SAS, stick to your guns.

Life is nothing without an element of risk and I am prepared to take on an amount of well judged risk. My risk level it seems is a bit higher than yours but that is my personal choice.

I guess in your book everything is stacked against me, our take off is a black hole take off, I fly IMC at night and over water in a single (and a twin) but at least I wont be on lying on my death bed wondering "what if", most likely my shattered body will be lying on a foggy hillside in the middle of the night or mid channel freezing to death. But hey what a ride and at least they will have my GPS to recover the data.......... :p

[Say again s l o w l y]

Risk aversion is one of the reasons I won't get into an R22 anymore!!

I've scared myself too many times in a/c, usually due to my own stupidity and I've been to too many funerals of people in aviation to take as many risks as I would have when I was 21.

So where shall I send the flowers or donation for you? You may as well get the use of them now!!! ;)

As long as we are all aware of the potential problems and pitfalls, then we can adjust our actions to suit, thereby reducing our risk. For you in example, you know about black hole T/O problems, so are ready for it. Much better than just "having a go" and there being a big bonfire at the end of a strip somewhere.

As the CFI of a club, I have to be seen to be respectable and hopefully the other members may start to be a bit less likely to do daft things if I'm around. Not sure if it works however!! No inverted beat up at 150kts and 10' above the runway for me anymore!