Australian Pilots

[mourgo]

Can any Aussie pilots out there give me some info on starting a career as an airline pilot. I know the industry is hard to get into. Money is not an issue.. Where do I start?

[Truth Seekers Int'nl]

...........wind up alert.........playing with pood............money not an issue.......buy A380 rating and join QF..........easy street!

[mourgo]

Im completely from scratch.

Gotta start on a single engine piston.

Only ever flown a 737 in a simulator ( a real one and not a game).


How many hours would i need to get a job with an airline?

How much $$$ am i looking at?

[JetABro]

....give us $10 000 and I'll tell you all you need to know:}

[Bazzamundi]

If you really want a serious answer, it would cost nearly $100 big ones for all the qualifications nowadays, and even after forking out the big bucks the chances of a good job are still years away, potentially never. For every 100 people who get a licence in Aust, only a small percentage even get a full time job, let alone into a decent paying one.

Say you do survive out in the bush, PNG, whatever early on, you will have earnt absolutely nothing, and you may even get lucky and get into Jetstar or Virgin, or any other operator who is quickly starting to follow suit and charge you for your initial training. So fork out another $30 grand for the endorsement, and about 6 weeeks of unpaid work, pay for your own hotel accomodation and meals while doing the course, no super, the list goes on ...., and you will finally be owed well over $40 grand to just get the endorsement and a foot in the door. And did I mention the wage?

So all up, you have potentially spent close to $150 big ones (when you look at the relocation, travelling to interviews, qualifications, paying for training etc.) and have had a few fun years earning nothing but good times (and friends).

If you are lucky, you may have finally cracked it for Virgin or Jetstar and you will earn less than most train drivers, bus drivers, plumbers, tradespeople, university graduates etc. In years gone by, it was an extremely well paying profession (an airline Captain was close to a senior judge in remuneration), but those days are gone. I would guess Qantas will have folded into Jetstar and back with all wages and conditions at the lower rate. And every day that goes by, there is one more group of people who could not get the job any other way than by offering to do it for less money. The way things are headed, we will all soon be paying to fly the planes.

Maybe you could get into Cathay (they don't seem to have the same problems as we do here) but you have to be prepared to live in Hong Kong for life.

By the way, a guy down the street works for Australia post in the mail sorting centre (real dead beat drongo type) and he makes more money for less work than a lot of F/O's in jets in Australia make.

[Metro man]

Go into mining instead, $100 000 salaries are quite common and you have strong unions to defend your conditions. Major shortages of personnel at the moment too. What Bazzamundi says is dead right. The length of time to crack the big one IF you get lucky is such that had you worked on a mine from day one, you would probably be close to being able to retire.

In flying you will be looking at 10 years to command an airline jet, if everything goes right. BIG financial outlays and years of no or low pay on the way. A salary of $130 000 at the end of it if you're lucky. Fail a medical/checkride along the way and kiss it all good bye.

Airline flying used to be a secure, well paid career. Not any more.

[Uncommon Sense]

Cmon Guys - I saw John Howard and Kevin Andrews on TV, and they said under the new IR laws it is a workers paradise and we can negotiate a better deal because of the labour shortages?

Your not telling me they were fibbing are you?

This whole IR thing wasn't just a ruse to make GOD richer was it?

What about all those TV ads I paid for with all the shiny happy people smiling?

[Pass-A-Frozo]

I've never realised until the last few months what a large group of left wing union types exist in Australian aviation circles. :yuk:

[amos2]

I'd suggest you give Frozo 100k mourgo...

he'll look after you! :8 :ugh: :bored: :{

[Kanga767]

Money is not an issue.. Where do I start?

That right there, my winged workmates, is where the root of your problem lies.

Kanga

[HI'er]

We're all really left wing, pinko, communists, disguised as pilots, P-A-F.

We used to be right wing, Liberal-voting, silvertails, when we were all united under the AFAP banner, but we've seen the light.
Isn't that right, comrades :ok:

(Life in the "sheltered workshop" treating you ok, P-A-F? Your obsession with professional pilots working in the real world, keeps you glued to the keyboards, doesn't it.)

[Boomerang]

Try for a QF cadetship. If unsuccesfull:

Marry an American or UK citizen (pay if you have to, if money is no object, get one thats good looking, will do all your washing cooking etc and that already has a warm, clean house for you)

Then get your FAA/JAA CPL and buy an endorsement and hours on your desired jet aircraft. Preferably through some scheme that may have a hint of a job offer at the end.

Now, thats if money is no object. On the other hand...

[drshmoo]

Pass a frozo

Just because people are sick of being used as a door mat and seeing their conditions eroded, why does that make us union loving left wing types. I do believe in Unions and what they stand for but I also understand that they have their limitations.

but one should always remember

Together we stand, Divided we beg.

[Pass-A-Frozo]

Life in the "sheltered workshop" treating you ok,

Fine thanks. Just looking forward to my $7500 pay rise I'm getting in under a month. :p

If it's such a sheltered workshop / easy life why aren't you applying??

[HI'er]

Mate, you'd start bleating even louder if you knew what I am receiving in salary + benefits :ok:

Have a nice life looking from the outside in :}

[Gnadenburg]

PAF

What would your family receive if you were shot down and KIA in your lumbering transport aircraft in Iraq say?

This comment is in all due respect, with a background reference that I personally protested to my MHR about the woeful initial treatment of the widow of the SAS fatality in Afganistan.

Professional civilian pilot groups have negotiated for very favourable loss of health schemes. Again, with all due respect, I could fall of my roof and receive far more than a service pilots' family who dies fighting or training to protect his country. Is this an example of "your" socialism?

And as Hi'er alludes to, check out former members of your community and note their earnings. I work with dozens, they don't want their jobs back, so I won't apply either!;)

[Pass-A-Frozo]

Over the last few month yourelf, HI'er et al. have argued and complained about pilot pay and conditions and abused me for being in a "sheltered workshop" or for not "having a real job" . I have said I'm happy with my pay and condition, and make my decision on where I work - based on this.

How is it you both now are happy with your salary and conditions and imply I'm not?? You've both been suggesting getting a "strong unified union" and sticking it to management to gouge more cash out of them.

Ok, so you now agree an airline pilot's salary in Australia is excellent, and that people should choose where they work based on this? This is what I've been saying for 3 - 6 months on here.

you say "I'm happy with my work so I'll stay in this job" - yet abuse people who go to J* etc because they are happy with the pay that is being offered there ??

lumbering I resemble that remark!

[Gnadenburg]

Frozo

Don't you dare play the victim. To an extent I felt you were trolling with your posts, but you couldn't resist the occassional jibe at a profession you know nothing about. Insecurity, or fanning the flames, had you always adding how better off you would be outside of professional aviation when you left the services, due your academic qualifications- forgive my assumption, but ADFA boys make great school teachers if I can steer you in a vocational direction.

In the civilian world at the moment, you have to bite, scratch and pull hair to maintain conditions. This is not anything to do with skills sets, it is the way management conduct business. The only defence not tried against such aggression is unification of pilot groups. This is not socialism at all.

An airline committed individual in Oz, has no choice but to accept the conditions of service negotiated or accepted by a contemporary pilot group- for example the bogus concept of paying for your airline training. Again, the only untried defence against eroding conditons is some sort of unification by the current pilot group.

[Pinky the pilot]

Again, the only untried defence against eroding conditions is some sort of unification by the current pilot group
Quite correct Gnadenburg and I would like to think that the same conclusion would be reached by most of the above mentioned group.
Unfortunately, given some of the arguing, bickering and self interest that I have read on these pages concerning the subject I have gained the impression that 'unification' won't happen until it is far far too late!:{ :{
I would dearly love however to be proved wrong!

You only live twice. Once when
you're born. Once when
you've looked death in the face.

[Cloud Cutter]

150 Grand - F:mad: k!!!

I gather that's an over exageration. Come to NZ and do the lot, CPL, MEIR (CIR), C-Cat (Grade 3) Instructor, and ATPL theory for about $60,000 give or take a bit.

It's always going to be hard to get your first job in NZ or Aus, but if you want it bad enough, you will get there. If you work your arse off, you could expect to achieve all the above training in around 12-18 months. Depending on the state of the industry at the time, after securing your first GA job, it could take as little as 2 years before you're looking at a regional turbo-prop job. Although during the slow times of the past, even highly motivated people have spent up to 5 years working in GA.

As an idea, it took me a bit under 4 years to go from nothing, to regional job. These will probibly be some of the toughest years of your life, but that just makes the reward at the end all the more sweet. Don't listen to the knockers - if flying is what you really want to do - go for it! Put in the hard yards, focus, keep your eye on the goal - and remove failure from the list of options.

Good Luck:ok:

[Pass-A-Frozo]

Insecurity, or fanning the flames, had you always adding how better off you would be outside of professional aviation when you left the services Actually the point I made was that if I didn't like the pay and conditions I would choose a job outside piloting using my academic qualifications.
This is not anything to do with skills sets How can you possibly say this? If skill sets have nothing to do with pay and conditions why are you getting paid more than a newsagent employee? I'll tell you what, it's not because they are unified in a union.
In the civilian world at the moment, you have to bite, scratch and pull hair to maintain conditions No you don't, unless the only skill you've acquired over the years is in a field where there is an oversupply of possible employees.

This statement will inevitably result in you asking "What would you know blah blah - You know nothing about it". Well, I'll answer that in advanced for you. How does drawing a salary from an airline make you any more educated in aviation industrial relations and the economic factors involved than someone who is trained in economics at a university? I'd say it doesn't. The simple fact that you have a boss or manager you don't like, and read the left wing leanings posted on your pilot union website doesn't make you educated on the topic. It serves only to make you biased and lean toward your own self interest.
Don't you dare play the victim I'm not sure how you get that from my post. The only thing I am a victim of is the warped sense of logic espoused by people like HI'er. ;)

Oh, why would I want to become a teacher? Education is useless according to you lot.

[ccy sam]

Mourgo, mate, if your original question was serious, here is my serious answer.
DON'T DO IT.
Read the accurate posts about costs, low or no pay, low chances of work with good conditions etc. Save yourself while you can, back away slowly then RUN, don't look back and don't tell anyone you even thought of being a pilot. Its all a bad dream!

[victor two]

Mourgo,

You can pretty much forget most of the dribble that you read on this thread and other D&G pilot career based threads and put it down to the fact that lots of pilots out there are extremely bitter that their career plans never worked out .....or worked out but still fell way short of their misguided expectations.

if you are cashed up, it will help you out with getting through your training. There is a trend of reduced wages in the better paid jobs but it's still possible to make some decent money and have a good time as well. If you are really focused more on the money side of things then there are probably better careers out there but if you are happy to make a comfortable wage and enjoy your job then you should start lessons and enjoy what lies ahead. Cloud Cutter summed it up very well in his earlier post.

Just be prepared to hear lots more from the "poor bugger me" peanut gallery as you go through your entire flying career.

Good luck.

[mourgo]

All you pilots just complain and complain. I'd hate to turn out like that. There's starving people in this world and we worry about money? How bad can it be? A newby with an airline id guess you would get about 70-100k AUD a year. I have a passion for the industry so money will not motivate me at all.

Like i said i have enough income to stay home and do nothing for the next 3 years and live like a king. I've had a taste of flying in a real simulator and i love it.

[eagle 86]

I might remind you left leaning, pinko pilots that it was the Silver Bodgie and his mate Sir Peter that stuffed your conditions in this country.
GAGS
E86

[C152R]

I think you should really research this very carefully. Its all very well to say you want to fly. However you should remember this, its all about supply and demand. Too many pilots and conditions deteriorate. At present Australian universities push out about 180 pilots a year, in addition TAFE produce a similar amount, then you have the flying schools peddling their wares.

Qantas, Virgin and Jetstar would not not employ 180 pilots between them annualy. Which means the chance you getting into the airlines in Oz is remote. Remember there is a large number of Pilots with degrees out there, can you compete with them? Im not saying you need a degree to be a good pilot. However if an airline has a choice between a degree holder & a non degree holder all things beeing equal who will they take?

So the option is GA. A Dash8 Capt. is on about $80,000PA sounds good but it takes about 10 years to get there. During the years to get there your treated and paid badly and thats putting it nicely. If you have a UK passport a degree and $70,000 to get you started perhaps you should then CONSIDER it.

[Defenestrator]

Bollocks to you mourgo.

This is a job for me. It pays the bills, keeps a roof over my families head, clothes on their backs and food in their stomachs.

And if you think we're all bitching because we are 'pilots' it just shows what an ignoramus you are. When the working conditions of any group are eroded people get upset.

You stay at home in your poxy house for 3yrs. Hope the roof falls in :yuk: :mad: Schmuk!!!

[relax737]

Now we have eagle 86 attempting to rewrite history.

The bodgie and Abeles didn't start the rot, the CP of Virgin Blue did.

He's the one who downgraded the terms and conditions for recruits to airline flying; buy your own endorsement, pay scales about 60% of the other operator (forget it HI'er, VB operated 300's first off, not NG's, same as Qf were flying), buy your own meals, etc.

I might add the CP of VB took out somewhere between 12 and 18 million in shares for his "trouble".

mourgo, don't take too much notice of types like defenstrator, he's obviously bitter about not achieving his aims and thinks that because you're OK financially he should be also.

Frozo, I like your style. You're happy with your job, pay, etc. Stick with it. Airline flying isn't everything it's cracked up to be.

I started out in military flying, and I liked it too. Not much money, but a pretty exciting life most of the time. Didn't like being the cinema officer much though.

[eagle 86]

R737
So that disastrous piece of industrial action had no effect on pilot's pay and conditions - I have a lot of good mates who were in the industry at that time who would argue differently.
GAGS
E86

[Defenestrator]

R737,
I may have this wrong but the implication that 'money is not a problem' leads me to summise that this fellow may well attempt to enter this industry throwing money at people to get a few hours then buy his jet job while the rest of the battlers do the hard yards. All the while accepting crap terms and conditions. I think it's appalling. Personally I had a very fortunate run through GA and the regionals to get to where I am now. But at the end of the day bills, mortgages etc prevail and if my own T and C's are sliding because of the likes of mourgo accepting less than his worth because 'money is not an issue', then I will be bitter. I'm pretty sure your tune would change if he undercut you. And just for the record I applaud anyone that is truly happy in their job. Satisfaction in the workplace is becoming a bit of a rare commodity these days.:suspect:

[mourgo]

You think money falls out of trees?

I have been working my ass off since i was 15. Did my degree and now have a high paying job. Yes I may have enough funds to get me through but like everyone else I have worked my ass off to get this backing behind me.

Think twice before you start critisizing me. If money is going to get me in this industry then so be it. I deserve it.

[Pass-A-Frozo]

Hear, Hear!

Well done that man there!
:ok:

Fancy someone telling you don't take a job, because it might affect me, me and me!

I know who I think the selfish bugger is!

Next they'll be saying Virgin Blue and Ozjet don't deserve to exist because they have "undercut" QANTAS - which did the hard yards. :p

[relax737]

eagle you're quite right. The events of that year did have an effect; the salary of a 727/737/(and A320 if you were AN)Capt went fropm 120K pa to 250K pa. If your good mates tell you differently they are lying. It may have impacted on their salaries because they were unemployed/

Like I said earlier, you'd better go after everybody in VB because they were the start of the rot, the very ones who supposedly wouldn't go back because of some perceived loyalty to their mates instead of their families and some ridiculous union ideal. They are the ones who came back to Oz and worked for half what the QF guys were flying the same aircraft type

Dixon is now using the VB salaries to screw the pilots in his company, and who wouldn't if they were a businessman.

I say it again; the CP grew fat by screwing them down on T & C's. Simple as that.

Mourgo, go for it. The same guys who came back to VB to work for substandard salaries at that time will condemn you, but they are the worst. F&^%$#& hypocrites!. You work for whatever you want, and it's nobody's business but yours.

[Pass-A-Frozo]

You work for whatever you want, and it's nobody's business but yours.

Best quote I've read on pay and conditions on this message board! :ok:

[relax737]

Thanks frozo.

These same self righteous pricks working overseas have sweet f#$k all say in their pay and conditions but they work for these agencies/companies anyway suffering getting the $hit kicked out of them, and then attempt to tell pilots in Australia how they should conduct their lives.

These same pilots then came back and took jobs in VB for salaries way below the going rate.

Bull$hit!!.

[Betelgeuse]

Wow relax – you sure have a chip on your shoulder fella! What happened – DJ knock you back? Had lots of trouble getting a job after you bled Ansett dry? Couldn’t understand why no one would employ you?

So let’s see now…If every early virgin driver had said “Nah – gimme the $250k that our former friends in Ansett are making, Dicky would have eventually said – aw, awrite, it’s a deal then.” And all pilots in Australia would have lived happily ever after.

Can’t you see it? YOU and your hero mates KILLED your own airline through your own greed!

QF salaries are simply unsustainable in today’s climate. Just look at the number of pilots clamoring for any airline job in Australia.

The way of the future in Australia is average pay and long hours, after paying for your own qualifications. Why should pilots be different from any other semi-skilled vocation?

BTW relax – I work overseas and I DO have a BIG say in my pay and conditions. I’m very happy with what I get. Occasionally I get kicked around, but I make a sh1tload of cash for doing so. And when I’ve decided to move on, I’ve never had to worry about whether the next airline I might like to apply to will find my name on a list…..

Relax mate.

[relax737]

Betelgeuse, good to see you back. Been hiding somewhere in the galaxy??

Inanswer to para 1, none of those apply.

The salaries paid to AN and QF post 89 were OFFERED, and the cost per hour was less than pre 89. That's been done to death on these forums. If the 29+% had been granted withno trade offs, thehourly rate would have sky rocketed, and it may well have killed the airlines off, bothof them.

I think the salaries paid by QF are sustainable, but why would Dixon do so when he can, and will, get them back to VB rates.

If you work for who I believe you do, then you have NO say in your T&C's, and I wouldn't be prepared to be kicked around for any amount of money; my pride simply wouldn't take it. You wouldn't have taken it at AN, so why now??

As for worrying about names on lists, mine isn't on any, but that's finished a long time ago except for a couple of enclaves where the effigy burning still goes on every anniversary.

I have a mate, whose name is on the list, flying for Skymark, and the wan?ers there decreed long ago that no $kabs would ever work there. The Japs don't ake $hite from their contractors it seems.

I agree that the future in Oz is harder work for less money and not just for pilots....unfortunately if you're an employee.

So I take it that you endorse my comment that a person can work for whatever he chooses and it's no body else's business?? And Mourgo can work for less than VB pilots, or even less than a GA pilot, if he chooses after buying whatever he can afford?? Good lad!

I run a smallbusiness (26 employees) and I'd be crazy not to take advantage of the new workplace legislation which makes it tougher for employees but better for employers.

As for your last para, I'm relaaaaaxed, and about to go 777!!!

[HI'er]

mourgo, regardless of how much money you have, there is no guarantee of ANY job for you in aviation, after completing your training, and various ratings.
You might be one of the lucky ones who scores a job fairly quickly, or you might need that extra cash to support yourself during your search.

Job opportunities are increasing, and worldwide the number of EXPERIENCED pilots available is rapidly drying up, which means positions at the bottom end of the employment market will improve as well.

Before committing yourself with any flight training organisation, make sure your medical is done to ATPL standard by a CASA approved Doctor (a DAME - the list of DAMEs is available on the internet here search for a DAME (http://www.casa.gov.au/avmed/index.htm) .....no, it's not a list of hookers!).

Flying is rewarding, inasfar as job satisfaction goes, however the financial return on your outlay is not guaranteed, and is far less than that which you would receive if you were to spend it on doing (say) a Law degree.
To get your CPL as quickly as possible, you should undertake the course full time, which might allow you - at very best - to do a couple (as in 2) of days per week part time work.

Go for it, but just remember, there is NO guarantee of work for you at the end of the never ending road.

(You'll understand the "never ending road" bit after you've completed your CPL).

[Brian Abraham]

HI'er says it all

Go for it, but just remember, there is NO guarantee of work for you at the end of the never ending road

You cant win the lottery if you dont have a ticket.

PS if you do I hope it is as good to you as it was to me.

[Gnadenburg]

Frozo

A little difficult to offer rebuttal until I understand your concept of socialist or left wing influenced pilot associations.

Probably just have to accept we are poles apart.

By the way, do you have self-sealing fuel tanks, armoured seats and a good loss of licence/life insurance plan for missions in Iraq? If not, perhaps you need a pilot association or union of sorts.:ok:

[Betelgeuse]

Relax,

Not sure how you’d have even the faintest idea who I work for (unless woomeri give out isp locations), but I negotiate my T&Cs on a regular basis. Sometimes I win, sometimes I don’t. Not sure what your point is though. To me it simply illustrates the point that individually we have far less success in negotiating with an employer than collectively.

Interesting point about what a Federation negotiated settlement might have done to the airlines. What’s even more interesting is that having “won” the war, the FACT is that EVERY airline involved has since ceased to exist.

Glad to hear your name’s not on the list. (there were only a few hundred returnees anyway). Interesting that you feel the need to tell us though.

You’re right about my endorsement of the right to work for an individually negotiated contract. And I wholeheartedly agree with his right to save his money and use it to buy whatever he needs to get the best job he can. Seems to me that the people who most often complain about others paying for flying experience are those who either had it paid for by someone else (military) or managed to score a cadetship or other similarly assisted entry. And in those cases I believe it’s a form of snobbery akin to the yobbo who proclaims to every one that he’s never had to pay for a girl and never will!

I’m way beyond caring what the small Australian community of backstabbing, white-anting pilots does. I have no intention or faintest desire to ever work in Australia again, but it is a little sad to see what a bunch of weasels they’ve become (but my only real knowledge of the present generation of Aussie pilots is through PPRuNe - perhaps the contributors to PPRuNe are not indicative of the average Australian pilot).

I won’t presume to say I know where you work, but it’s a bit rich to tell us all

“and I wouldn't be prepared to be kicked around for any amount of money; my pride simply wouldn't take it.”

considering that you almost certainly work for a non-australian (most likely asian) carrier on an individual contract. As you suggested regarding the Japanese, these people just do whatever they wish, knowing your only recourse is to leave.

So, is your employer the elusive perfect employer? Never had anyone in any airline do something that really stuck in your throat? Did your pride force you to leave or did you calm down and think of the money?

Enjoy the triple….

[slimthemessiah]

tip: stay well clear of pprune bull***t

find your answers in the real world, you'd only every really receive negative feedback most guys on here
:p

[HI'er]

Do you include yourself as one of those bullshippers, slim? :p

[relax737]

Betelgeuse, I agree that a number of airlines involved in the 89 debacle have gone, but that had nothing to do with that event, other than AN used the opportunity to amalgamate East West and close or sell IPEC; I don't remember the details. Australian was bought by QF, and I don't remember the others if in fact there were any others.

You couldn't be even half serious suggesting that those three had anything to do with the brawl.

It is interesting to speculate what might have happened if the AFAP had won its 29+% for no trade offs, but I assure you the cost of pilots would have increased rather than decreased, as it did under the solution that evolved.

Certainly pilots earned twice what they were pre 89, but they worked more than twice as hard for that reward.

However, I have no desire to enter into yet another discourse on the results, advantages and disadvantages of the events of that year.

You seem to be happy where you are, and that is something of a change from several years ago when your posts were full of hatred and 'doing jobs' on pilots who didn't see issues your way. Congratulations on the change.

As for the 'weasels' Australian pilots appear to have become, my experience is that it's no different elsewhere in the world in piloting or any other profession. People will always put themselves first, and if they don't, then they are mugs because they'll sit on the sidelines watching everyone bypass them.

We in Australia only saw that a few years back, but it's existed everywhere else for years, a little like agencies. They have been involved in aviation, in force, for only a short while, but I can remember over forty years ago Drake personnel skimming it off office workers/execs.

[Betelgeuse]

Relax,

I won’t respond to most of your reply because this thread’s not the time and place. But it doesn’t mean I concur. (I’m pleased to see your basic lack of knowledge about the dispute – it means you weren’t directly involved)

But since the title of the thread is “Australian Pilots”, I will comment on the last part of your reply.

“As for the 'weasels' Australian pilots appear to have become, my experience is that it's no different elsewhere in the world in piloting or any other profession.”

The point that so many of the older ones of us have been trying to make is that this situation didn’t exist when pilots in Australia were united. There were always individuals who, given the opportunity, would white ant their peers for personal advantage, but by adhering to established rules of conduct, the whole group was able to obtain fair conditions for all. That situation was destroyed in ’89, leaving everyone to fend for himself, or to compete for positions.

You and I don’t need the protection of a union now because we have the experience to get what we want. But what of the young guys looking to get into this business now? Without a united group they’re at the mercy of the present generation of managers who will certainly put themselves first. Don’t you think they’d be better off if they were all united?

“People will always put themselves first, and if they don't, then they are mugs because they'll sit on the sidelines watching everyone bypass them.”

One of the defining points of civilized behavior is that people do not always put themselves first. It’s why charities exist, and even why people give their time and effort to serve on unions and collectives.

[victor two]

Betel,
I just want to ask - when you wrote

"I’m pleased to see your basic lack of knowledge about the dispute – it means you weren’t directly involved"


Even if he was fully involved and was in it up to his neck............ what's it got to do with you anyway? What makes it your business?

[HI'er]

pilots earned twice what they were pre 89, but they worked more than twice as hard for that rewardA little bit of fiction there, Wizofoz.
Until PILOTS write their OWN rosters, they have no control over how hard they work - scheduling does that for us.

Pre '89, overtime started at 65 hours - in other words, the employer could fly the pilot up to 65 hours per month, and still pay him only half the salary of the post '89 pilots.

Post '89, overtime started at 55 hours ($1200 being the guaranteed MINIMUM extra, paid for a callout).

I'd be interested to hear your economic rationalisation of WHY 4 quite finanacially healthy airlines pre-Dispute, now cease to exist.

The companies decided to play hard ball, believing that the pilots would be back at work within 2 weeks.
They were nowhere NEAR fully operational again until January 1990, and completely without revenue of any substance, for almost 3 months.

The aim was to bust the collective bargaining power of the pilots, to be able to put them on INDIVIDUAL contracts, and then tear down their conditions, by initially pitting pilot against pilot, using $$$`s as the carrot.
Were they successful?

[relax737]

KaptinM, sorry HI'er, this topic has been done to death and you know you are WRONG.

This quote confirms that you are WRONG

"Post '89, overtime started at 55 hours ($1200 being the guaranteed MINIMUM extra, paid for a callout)." It was payment for hours flown only and any number of QF and AN pilots would shoot you down on that, along with a thousand other issues!!

It follows that if you are prepared to make such ridiculous unsubstantiated claims, then possibly none of what you speak is believable.

Your propensity to misrepresent, misquote, and generally fabricate stories to suit your own position is exceeeded only by your stupidity if you actually believe it. Incidentally I know you're not stupid by the content of your posts when you can keep them on the rails.

I'm not bothering to even take it up again let alone get into a slanging match with you. Infinitely more eloquent contributors have done that and taken your tissue thin arguments apart, but you don't accept reason. Sorry, no bites today.

Betelgeuse I'm ecstatic that you are pleased I wasn't involved in the dispute. I'm pleased too; who knows what may have happened had I incurred the wrath of Betelgeuse???

So much pleasure; so much ecstasy, and we haven't even met!!

Over to you Wiz. You may have more patience than I do, and you will require infinitely more.

[Lodown]

Mourgo,

Good luck with the flying. Like any industry, there are good jobs and bad jobs. The good jobs are well worth the sacrifices, and the bad jobs...well... Just an observation that in current times, even the bad jobs are hard to get. You have to crawl, scrape and do a lot of dirty tasks to get to the top of the competition.

Obviously it's just my opinion, but if I was in your position, I'd put my dreams on hold for a while until the industry picks up again. Perhaps I'd work towards a PPL, enjoy the flying, then assess the state of the industry again prior to proceeding to a CPL/ATPL. In this way, you can get an inside feel for the state of the industry without a change-of-career commitment. You might also find that flying privately dovetails nicely with your present skills and aspirations.

The reason I say this is that when you're out of work with a pilot's licence, the costs to remain current and employable can be overwhelming, particularly when an instrument rating is involved. A comfortable bank account can disappear very quickly for a pilot out of a job, which makes the decision to get out or stay in the race a very tough one indeed. It's easy to say that money is not an issue, but it has a habit of becoming one very quickly when you're out of a job.

I think you need to set a few goals for yourself to give yourself the best chance of succeeding and minimising the fallout if things don't work out. It's nice to have the dreams, but assess your progress with a discriminating eye. You need measures and a clear head to be able to accurately assess opportunites when they appear.

Best wishes in whatever field you choose to pursue.

[Gnadenburg]

relax737

Personal bias aside, don't you think Betelgeuse has some sound considerations?

But herein may be the problem. Every pilot group in Australia, now has justification in skulduggery towards the other due bitter histories of strikes, perceived inaction and lack of support of one group toward another, undercutting, failed integration or even failing entrance psych testing at QF.

Maybe we should all just give up. Whatever happends or is accepted, is totally justified in the minds of each pilot group.

[Point0Five]

You and I don’t need the protection of a union now because we have the experience to get what we want. But what of the young guys looking to get into this business now? Without a united group they’re at the mercy of the present generation of managers who will certainly put themselves first. Don’t you think they’d be better off if they were all united?
What if you skipped the whole unionised workforce thing and simply provided mentoring to those less experienced than yourself? I mean, you're clearly against personal gain at the expense of others, so it shouldn't be too hard to use your experience to help out the young guys? I don't see where needing a union comes into it.

With an industry full of altruistic people such as yourself, the wisdom you possess to defeat the present generation of managers can be passed from old to young. Kind of like an Olympic flame of aviation. :ok:

That is the idea, isn't it? :hmm:

[Pass-A-Frozo]

I think the real point to do with unions is this:

People here always say "Stop undercutting and doing things for yourself"..

How does the union really push their point - by striking and seriously harming third parties who have nothing to do with the entire matter. Joining a union is just as "selfish" as doing it alone. You just cover it with "I'm helping others too". No - you are doing it because you think the "union" seems like it has a better chance of achieving your goals. I've said it before and I'll say it again, if you think that being a member of a union is "selfless" - talk to the companies that went out of business during the 89 strike.

Fair enough if you want to join a union but admit it's because you think it will get you what you want. Not because of some altruistic idea that you are "Helping conditions for the young fella's coming through". :yuk:

[Point0Five]

Come off it PAF, don't you remember the great Doctors' Strike of '95; or the time all the Lawyers in Australia walked off the job; surely you are familiar with how most Engineering in Australia is performed by non unionists? Don't see their pay and conditions going down :rolleyes:

I'm sticking with my faith in humanity and continue to believe that people like HI'er and Betelgeuse are out there trying to make a difference for the little guy.

Shame on you and your shameless ways :=

[mourgo]

I dont think any of you guys are actually pilots. Just enthusiasts.


Am I right?

[relax737]

gnadenburg, it's an honourable thought, but it's not reality, and it never has been.

Let's go back to that year, and once again, I have no desire to open a slanging match over what happened then, but it's a great study in human nature.

The pilots didn't stick together then, despite a segment of the pilot community pushing the line that they did, and the very people advocating a united approach, the most senior, were off overseas within a week, announcing that when the issue was resolved they'd be back to take their jobs.

How could they ever expect that the junior guys would sit back and watch their jobs disappear, because from day 1 it was obvious that not everybody would get a job in the washup.

They saw those going overseas and made the call that if they weren't here, then their jobs wouldn't be filled, not everybody would get back, so make a move.

You can spam the scenario up however you like, but the cold, hard facts are that there was NOT unity, in spite of protestations
to the contrary.

Let me say it again; aviation is NO different from any other industry. People look after themselves first, and if that appears to fit with the union's line, then OK, but if not, they'll do it anyway. They will look after themselves first, and it can be no other way, because if they don't, then they'll sit on the sidelines as a spectator rather than be on the field as a competitor.

Pilots who held themselves out to be stalwarts of the union went overseas willingly and signed individual contracts, the conditions therein over which they had avbsolutely no control. What does that tell me about those people? They're bl00dy hypocrites, pushing a line on others and doing quite the opposite themselves.

Regrettably I have had to use the events of that year to make a point. Please let's not start a punch up over it, and please HI'er if you're going to quote ridiculous payrates etc., in an attempt to sway opinion your way, get a hold of the facts before doing so because you do no more than make youself look foolish when you quote garbage.

[mattyj]

You will soon find that in the obssesive pursuit of your goal you will develope an acute and shocking case of tunnel vision whereby you fail to notice your loss of grace and the onset of a debilitating attitude which would see you floundering in most other industries. Usually the realisation that the success you have craved in aviation came at the cost of all your old friends, your youth and your spouse and children, it will be too late and all you will be able to do is pass on your resentment to the next generation of pilots you train.

[Boney]

Mourgo

You are the one who is on the side lines asking for advice (even if the thread has gone off on a tangent).

Show some respect!

[Pass-A-Frozo]

I dont think any of you guys are actually pilots. Just enthusiasts.


Am I right?

What makes you think that?

[relax737]

mattyj,

None of the above.

Boney, looks like he has and withdrawn his post.

Be assured Mourgo, I am a pilot and a keen observer of human nature. I should never be surprised by human behaviour, but still am from time to time.

I have no resentment toward others in the industry, nor the way it has gone, because I'm a realist. The industrial scene is changing whether we like it or not, and we are powerless to alter its course.

The only thing we have at our disposal is withdrawal of services, but with pilots queueing up around the building for our jobs, you cop it or get out. There is a shortage, compared with a couple of years ago, but airlines are still getting starters, so they perceive no problem, or a minor one at worst.

PAF makes a valid point; if you think managers are unjustly being paid more than they are worth, become a manager. It doesn't get any simpler than that.

It's not unlike beefing abuot the politicians' perks; stand for election and become a politician and jump on a carriage of the gravy train, but don't whinge about it until you've attempted to effect change, because all you do is show a lack of credibility.

[Team Player]

went overseas willingly and signed individual contracts, the conditions therein over which they had avbsolutely no control. The majority of pilots who eventually left Australia and ventured overseas, joined companies (such as Cathay, Emirates, Singapore, Gulf) that had pilot union representation.
For someone who denies being a scab, you certainly spend an ample amount of time defending them.

I am a pilot and a keen observer of human nature. I should never be surprised by human behaviourNor I - how's that house on the Mekong?

I dont think any of you guys are actually pilots. Just enthusiasts....What makes you think that?Your knowledge of radar, perhaps, PAF? I suggest it doesn't extend beyond microwave ovens! :}

[Gnadenburg]

relax737

Like you, I was in high school during the dispute. But taking that issue aside, I just don't get a warm and fuzzy feeling from your sentiments.

I could probably easily, in my present circumstances, negotiate a 5% payrise at the sacrifice of pilots' conditions who have not joined my airline. Is that the short sighted environment yourself and PassaFozo advocate?

[Pass-A-Frozo]

My knowledge of radar?

I assume you are talking of the Brisbane ATC thread.

Ok "Team Player", lets play a quiz.

Does an AN/APN-241 have an air / air radar mode (Skin Paint)?
Do any aircraft with an AN/APN-241 radar fly in Brisbane FIR.

Team Player: Perhaps your lack of knowledge about what actually flies around you own country's skies are an indication? I guess you just thought "I don't have one , so no-one has one".

Next you'll be saying I don't understand TCAS because the Cessna you flew once didn't have it!
Gnad: No, I'm advocating you do what you want.

[Gnadenburg]

Frozo

Yes & we can see you coming anyway.

For the benefit of foreign militaries, can we talk about the black op's Hercules gear?

And on your last commment, I believe you are unethical.

[Team Player]

No, I'm advocating you do what you want.Most of us - MOST - graduated from the Law of the jungle a few centuries back, cookie boy, and learnt to live WITH our fellow man, having learnt that living in harmony and working in unity achieves an outcome palatable for ALL.

The Law of the Jungle, as advocated by you, means that there is eventually only ONE winner.
For someone hiding behind a ps position, as opposed to toughing it out in the private sector, your decision in life belies that which you so "bravely" espouse here!
Too hot in your kitchen? :}

[relax737]

Team Player, Mekong?? I did a Mekong Delta tour out of HCM City about ten years ago. Is that what you're talking about? I have no idea of what you speak.

I don't defend $cabs, but nor do I defend those who really sold the movement out in 89. The older guys who pushed the solidarity line did that, but enough of that. I'm not here to debate the rights or wrongs of that year.

The point I made and make is that solidartiy has never existed in pilot ranks; we all know the me firsters in our own companies.

Gnadenburg I wasn't in High School, and TP makes the assumption that I was a $cab because he reads into my posts that I defend them.

Ah, yes, unions and CX. The 49ers issue, and recruitment ban, but no promotion ban; Don't give me that $hite TP.

Emirates union. Aren't they still working for the same as they were 15 years ago.

Very successful unions for their members indeed.

Gnadenburg, not everyone in your company feels the same way. Some will negotiate an increase, not only at the expense of those who join in the future, but at your expense. Be careful.

[Gnadenburg]

relax737

Fine, as mentioned earlier, any action or inaction can be justified on precedent.

[Pass-A-Frozo]

For the benefit of foreign militaries, can we talk about the black op's Hercules gear?
Surely you aren't implying manufacturers standard fit is some kind of state secret :rolleyes: It's not like we are discussing your AP-3 backend kit or some EWSP flare patterns.

And on your last commment, I believe you are unethical. Why is that? Surely you don't believe deciding on whether to accept a job or not based on my expectations of salary is unethical?

[Pass-A-Frozo]

working in unity achieves an outcome palatable for ALL
Except the company, those trying to gain entry into the industry (artificially higher wages lower employment), the travelling public and the Australian economy overall. I guess that just leaves you!For someone hiding behind a ps position, as opposed to toughing it out in the private sector, your decision in life belies that which you so "bravely" espouse here!
Too hot in your kitchen?So being military aircrew is "hiding" from the real world and easy? (not toughing it out?). If you believe this it begs the question why you aren't a military pilot?? Obviously you think my pay and conditions are great and "the easy life" from this statement! I'd be glad if you expand on what you mean though.

It doesn't contradict what I'm saying, it highlights what I'm saying. I made a choice to take this career path, accepting the pay and conditions that went with it. When I'm not happy with it and like the pay and conditions elsewhere I'll apply. If the job I apply for pays less than you think airline pilots should be paid well that's just tough isn't it! Everyone is a winner when they are working for a salary they are happy with. If you aren't happy then find another job.

[Gnadenburg]

C'mon Froz

Your opening line in your last post sounds like a crossed Socialist-Neo Conservative ideaology. Every professional in Australia, should dumb down their job without a fight, for the betterment of economy. :confused: You need some time on the street.

Haven't we explained it enough? Nobody wants your job. In the months post-Sept 11, mass pilot retrenchments around the globe, it was surprising how few went back into the RAAF.

[Pass-A-Frozo]

Sorry Gnad:

A bit pissy right now on new years.

Talk in a while :)

Happy new Years mate! Even if we don't agree, I hope the world brings you a great year.:ok:


Happy New Year everyone.. Let's debate tomorrow Gnad: Happy new year mate. I wish the best to your family.

[Point0Five]

"I dont think any of you guys are actually pilots. Just enthusiasts.

Am I right?"

Nah Mourgo, but I am an aviation professional. And youself? :hmm:

Team Player, given that you have "learnt to live WITH our fellow man, having learnt that living in harmony and working in unity achieves an outcome palatable for ALL"; why is it that you would be "toughing it out in the private sector"? Sounds like you've already discovered how to live in some sort of socialist utopia, where's the challenge in that?

[Pass-A-Frozo]

G'day again Gnads:

I'm not really bothered by that fact you think no-one wants me job. You clearly missed my point . My point was I choose a job based on what I get out of it (including pay) . The thing is, the less people that want my job - the more chance I have of getting paid more for doing the job I currently enjoy :ok: Happy new year mate!

[Captain Sand Dune]

"Nobody wants your job." Really?:hmm: There's literally hundreds of people every year who could not get a guernsey for a military pilots' course that would say otherwise.

"In the months post-Sept 11, mass pilot retrenchments around the globe, it was surprising how few went back into the RAAF." Pretty surprising to see how many ex-military pilots applied and got knocked back as well. I was very lucky to get back in when I did in early 2003. The door shut fairly firmly about that time (for lateral recruits, that is), and has only just started to open again now.

P.S. Pass-A-Frozo, when did you go through 2FTS?

[Pass-A-Frozo]

>170 course , < 180 course :E