£60,000 - £70,000 debt? WORTH IT? [Archive]

Stpaul

14th Dec 2005, 12:09

Well there will be many on here that say that you cannot put a price on doing what you enjoy! But you can be a realist.
A hugh debt like that takes some repayment. Work out how you are going to repay it, if you imagine you will take 10 years to repay it and even if the bank do not charge any interest, thats nearly £600 per month out of your NET pay (i.e after tax). so its going to mean that you will not be able to get a loan or a mortgage, let alone afford one!
Then you have to account for the employment market, will you get a job immediately, will you have to pay for a type rating (£20,000), instructors rating, the cost of living, rent etc etc.
Then you might start on a salary of £20,000, thats about £1200 take home pay, you will have all your expenses to pay, rent bills, council tax etc. So it needs careful planning.
For those that go into flying for the money are living in a different world and yes I believe hundreds go into it with blinkers on! I've met Integrated Students at Oxford you have paid out £50,000 plus without ever having been up in a plane for a trial lesson!

But at the end of the day, if its what you really really want to do and you have done all your research properly there will be a handful of flight schools that will use all their charm and lies to grab that cash out of your hand and when you have completely finished they will completely forget about you!

I wish you luck!:ok:

littco

14th Dec 2005, 12:12

It's only not worth it , if you fail to achieve what you set out to do!

If you suceed then of course it is worth it.. It's down to you!

As for the paying back the money.. small price to pay if you get where you want to be!

Superpilot

14th Dec 2005, 12:22

"I think some people go into this situation with tunnel vision"

I attended a seminar at Oxford recently. I happened to turn up on a day that a new (or several new) APP courses started. I even had the opportunity to sit in on a class full of integrated students. Never seen so many pubescent's in one class! (well not since school anyway). And that's the point I would now like to make....

At that age, you can't have too many responsibilities in life. so I seriously doubt it if most of them thought long and hard about the HSBC loan they took out. No wife, no kids, no mortgage...Not a worry in the world.

The other type of person who would readily take on such a debt must be someone who is older but has no responsibilities or someone who is older, has responsibilities but at the same time has the money to cope with everything - Translates: "Is Rich"

Now most people above the age of 25 have responsibilities that would mean them getting 60-70k in to debt AND BEING OUT OF WORK FOR NEARLY TWO YEARS is out of the question. I guess you are in this position?

Don't get me wrong, the £60-70k in-debtr's have an extremely high chance of finding employment after graduation due to Oxford's / FTE's links with the industry....and this might be a good enough reason for some people. But I for one, would prefer the modular route anyday.

I spent £5k on my PPL and will spend another £30k on the rest of my professional training. At least half of the time it takes me to complete my professional training I will have the opportunity to work. And so what if it takes me a year to find my first flying job, I can still go back to doing what I have been doing for the last 5 years earning a decent salary.

Just my two pence worth. Have a nice day :ok:

G-SPOTs Lost

14th Dec 2005, 19:43

Superpilot - Spot On

Trust me - 6 months into your first job on a 320/737, it will very quickly feel ordinary apart from the 70k debt that will take YEARS to pay off. If you cant afford it outright go modular and get a job it might take 12 months longer but you will save a full 18 months (after tax) of your shiny new jet salary straight away.

I dont beleive all this BS about Mod/intgrtd if you are a knob and people feel that you cannot sit with another stranger for six hours at a time and interact you will not get a job regardsless of how you got your license.

70k is a fortune, combine that with no increasing house price windfalls anymore and you are screwed.

Dont do it, fly in the US a bit - Enjoy!!

judojamesg

14th Dec 2005, 23:16

Hello people. some very good point, I really appreciate them thanks.

I agree about this modular/intergrated debate.

I have gone through the selection at Oxford, and they are a very professional school and have a good reputation. But the thing that is really becoming a problem is funding £71,000 for the 18 month course, then an extra £20k type rating thats £91,000! ( if not employed by BA)

So I agree with superpilot, I have looked at stapleford, in essex and they offer excellent training there. And to be qualified its around £35,000. I am also looking add to this around £27,000 for B737 TR, and 100 line experience with astraeus.

I am of the opinion that this would benefit me in getting a job. (correct me if i am wrong)

With everything else added it looks as though it will cost around £65,000

Yes I am a 25 year old earning £25,000 a year, and feel i need to forefill my ambition of becoming a pilot.

I am feeling pressured slightly as I feel the longer i leave it the hard it will be to become employed, is this true?

Any other opinions would be great.

Mercenary Pilot

15th Dec 2005, 02:20

My advice to anyone who has decided to take the plunge is... Look for the best training you can afford, not the cheapest! If you make a bad decision, it will cost you thousands! Choose somewhere that has got a great reputation (from airline pilots not company sales staff!) Ex-students can tell you alot but remember, most have only been to the one school so the information is going to be a little one sided.

am feeling pressured slightly as I feel the longer i leave it the hard it will be to become employed, is this true?

No its crap! Im a similar age to yourself. All my flying mates are older than me and were before they got jobs.

Dont feel pressured into this at all, its going to affect the rest of your life, if you dont get a job after you finish then what... How are you going to pay for your car, nights out, bills, house and most expensive of all...the girlfriend(s)?! Trust me, at this age its a big sacrifice!

Good luck with your training. Choose wisely and try not to pay for everything upfront!

Sempre Volando

15th Dec 2005, 09:25

Lots of very valid points here indeed and it must be an extremely difficult choice right now especially given that 'paying for your own type-rating' seems to becoming the norm these days.

Oxford do have a very good reputation for training and many airlines do contact them to invite their best graduates for selection, including the airline I work for! BUT you have to be one of those lucky ones who Oxford think are the best I guess.
Just try and choose a school with a good reputation.

Modular route is good if you have a wel paid job before starting your training and enables you to keep working when your training is being done. However it's all about continuity of training for many airlines so don't take about 5 years to complete it all.

The ATP scheme through CTC has to be a good option, and the cheaper Modular route might enable you to plan and have funds available for this scheme. I know of many people who have gone through CTC who got that first job quickly enough with a decent company and it saves all the hassle of sending countless numbers of CV's off for what could be a good few years.

Lastly, when you have finished your training and if you can afford to do so, then get a job working in the office for an airline!!!! Your foot is in the door etc so try and choose one that recruits low-hour pilots.

Other than that, enjoy your training and try make as many contacts as possible!

Fish Out of Water

15th Dec 2005, 10:40

It's a no brainer - that amount of debt for a lifetime career that's the envy of all your mates!

The initial investment seems a lot but if you offset it against potential earnings then that cost is minimal. I got the CTC thing when I was done training and started on a proper salary of about 42k. If you don't get that even my tprop mates started in the high 20's. And one of my other mates put it quite bluntly - how comfy are you now in terms of earnings, this is probably the least money you'll earn for the rest of your life!' Yippee.

Spend it!:cool:

Stpaul

15th Dec 2005, 13:38

Fish out of Water...Congratulations, but trust me, you are the exception rather than the rule!

(not sure which airline offers high 20's for TP's!!)

Superpilot

15th Dec 2005, 14:11

Fish,

It's £42k minus your loan repayments isn't it? - 12k a year. So you're really at £30k, aren't you? Do correct me if i'm wrong.

Fish Out of Water

15th Dec 2005, 15:38

Super - don't know who's fleecing you for 12k per year at the normal rate. Some of my dutch mates are paying that amount to get their loans paid off asap! Plus the 42k is until you are unfrozen, a year and a half later with a little thawing and it'll be 50k+.

Then you go to a flag carrier or the middle east and earn even more. I'm not the exception by any means - have loads of friends and colleagues in the same boat, and it's the most exciting time for quite a while to be getting in to aviation (far better than when I came in!). By the looks of things there will be a big shortage of pilots just over the hill too, it's coming very soon. Spend your money well and don't skimp, give yourself the best chance possible, kick a55 in your training and get straight onto a jet. :ok:

Wodka

15th Dec 2005, 16:24

At the end of the day you should go with your guy instinct - if your not sure about this go and try some office jobs etc and see just how grim it really is!

I have worked in many different industries in the last few years and from my point of view it’s a depressing business sitting in meetings or whatever trying desperately to look interested when inside you’re screaming at the top of your voice "let me out!"

If you have been bitten by the bug, it won't fade, you will just HAVE to do it - and from that you will find a way. BUT do plan the finances very carefully because (and I speak from some experience here) debt that is out of control quickly takes over your life and that is not good if your trying to doing exams, job hunt or whatever.

My advice - watch the office, its scarily real to life!

:ok:

Stpaul

15th Dec 2005, 16:58

".......and get straight onto a jet."

Oh its sounds so simple!!!!!!

Nb; remember all replies on this site are from Pilots or wannabe pilots therefore you are probably not getting a true reflection of the whole picture, consider our views with people outside aviation!

Dr Eckener

15th Dec 2005, 22:15

It's a no brainer - that amount of debt for a lifetime career that's the envy of all your mates!
All your jealous mates will be earning loads more than you for years, without the 70k debt. If (like most of us) you do not have wealthy sponsors, then I would recommend earning the money first and entering the profession in your late twenties/thirties.

There are enough opportunities in life to aquire debts (mortgage, kids, etc) so don't handicap yourself by buying the BS of over-zealous wannabes and training organisations.

Get yourself a long term plan to achieve your goals REALISTICALLY.

Try other options if you cannot wait - RAF & sponsorship primarily. Please do not get into debt, it leads to more debt and desperation.

I am not in debt by the way (did it in my thirties), but have seen desperate people doing desperate things.

Superpilot

16th Dec 2005, 07:55

Excellently put Doc.

Dave Martin

16th Dec 2005, 09:42

Dr Eckener,

Does it really matter if your mates will be earning loads more? Most people I know earn two to three times my salary, but don't seem to enjoy their jobs much at all.

Yes, the 70K would be a problem, but for many of us mere mortals, an airline career would be the first proper salary we ever earn (even at the ripe old age of 30!). It is certainly impossible for me to save even half that in my current career, so it has become a catch-22 situation: without an airline (or similar paying) career I cannot afford to undertake training.

I doubt many people at all choose this career for the salary it offers, but I am surprised by how many people also seem to claim the salary is insufficient to justify it.

littco

16th Dec 2005, 10:45

Sorry to ask but am I missing something here?

Ok, £65k to pay for a career is a lot money, and not many people have that sort of money lying around to do it with out getting into debt! but you only need to pay that sort of money if you go for an intergrated course, do it modular or any other way and the real cost is nearer £35K, that is for your flying time, exams fees etc. Regardless, you are getting something out of it - the chance to be able, if you are good enough, work hard and possibly know the right people to get a job in the RH seat of a plane you want to fly. It's that simple.

Yes the pay might not be great to start, yes your friends may be earning more money than you, yes if you can't afford it you will be in debt for a long time but those that do it, do you think they really care about all this?

For those people that actually care their friends earn more money than them and they might be in debt for a long time, possibly aren't doing this for the right reasons.

I am possibly in a slightly more envious position than most, that due to hard work, and a whole lot of luck in the property market I can actually afford to do this off my own back and not having to worry about paying back huge sums of money at the end, but I don't believe that my motives for wanting to do this are any differnet than anyone else on this website and I am sure that have ever much I want this someone will always be more passionate and decidated than me, but that is just life.

The one thing I have learnt from reading Pprune over the last year, is that no 2 people are the same and everyone needs to make their decision based on there own circumstances, financial situation and motives for wanting to be a pilot.

If you believe that spending £70k on an intergrated course will give you the best chance of getting where you want to go, then that's up to you. Make your decision, live by it and get on with life, it's that simple.. and quite honestly no different to anything else that happens in the real world. It just amazes me that so many people on here think that training to be a pilot is any different to getting any other job. If you want a proffesional job then you will have to pay for it. It costs £35k+ to be a lawyer, £40k+ to be a doctor, £30k to be an accounant.. So being a pilot is no different!

So getting back to my orginal point, what have I missed and why all the fuss?

Dave Martin

16th Dec 2005, 11:31

I think there are two things you might be missing, although one is subjective.

First, by many accounts it is more time consuming going modular and often a lot more expensive than the £35,000 usually quoted. With Integrated coming in at £61,000 and all nicely packaged to stay current and continuous, there may be an advantage there - it takes a lot of the hard administrative work out of getting a fATPL (rightly or wrongly).

Second (and subjective); it is often said that knowing people in the industry will give you a big step ahead in getting "that job". By proxy, the big integrated schools seem to somewhat akin to that the old family friend or great Uncle who knows the head of recruitment at BA. The airline come to them and they put names forward. When the competition is all about getting your CV to the top of the pile, I can't help feel integrated offers that, whereas modular falls short.

Regardless, of whether you are paying £35,000 or £60,000, if you can't get a job at the end of it you are utterly screwed. If I felt the extra £20-30K was going to secure me the job (a backhander you might call it), then that would swing it for me.

As a disclaimer, I am in no way naturally biased one way or the other, and broadly agree that the best way to the left-seat of a 747 should be via a decade or two spent in bug smashers and turbo-props. The reality just doesn't seem to match that though, and while the evidence to support Oxford's claims of success are a little sketchy, I fail to see any evidence to the contrary, nor any competitors even being in a position to make similar claims.

The difference between flying and the lawyer/doctor scenario, is it seems more likely that a law firm or surgery awaits you at the end of the degree. In aviation on the other hand, you complete a course costing as much as twice the normal fee for a degree and come out with nothing more than a pilots licence. A BA/BSc will at least open doors in all kinds of sectors. A fATPL does not grant that.

dlav

16th Dec 2005, 11:54

I agree DaveM.

Im about to start at Oxford on the APP, but all Id say is that there is no right/wrong answer to this never ending debate.

Integrated vs Modular debates have, and will always appear on PPRuNe. As somebody rightly said above, no two PPRuNer's are the same, and so consequently there are a huge range of opinions on the matter, which will obviously clash at some point.

You have to consider things such as:

Is this what you really want?
Cost?
Time taken?
Location?
Family?
FTO Reputation and ground school results
Links with airlines
Talk to people that have gone there

Do not base your opinion on whether to go to a certain FTO or not, and spend 75K based on what you read on here. If that where the case I doubt anybody would want to become a pilot!

At the end of the day, its you who has to decide. Nodody on here can know you better than what you know yourself. Take each of the above factors and really think about them before making a decision.

Fish Out of Water

16th Dec 2005, 12:27

Why do people get so wound up about this matter? All I was saying earlier is to give yourself the best chance it is worth spending the money. An extra 20k or so for a lifetimes career!!!

At the end of the day training and spending your own money involves risks. But if you don't try you don't get. Granted there are the unlucky ones that get nothing years on, but there are also lots of successful pilots that go straight into the rhs of a tprop/jet.

And as for the comment about not being the envy of your mates. How many times do you go to the pub to talk about their accounting job? :8

littco

16th Dec 2005, 13:44

Not really sure that people are getting wound up, just have differing views. If you think that spending an extra £20k is more likely to get you a job, then I am sure that is something you spent a lot of time thinking about and obviously is the correct way for you to go. For me I didn't believe that is the way to go and am under no illustration that my way is an any better way of doing it, it just suits me more.

Your right any training involves risks and as such there is always a liability that goes with it, maybe paying the extra £20k reduces those risks by increasings the likelyhood of getting your dream job maybe it wont, only you can answer that.

I don't think anyone can give you the right answer, only a view on what they percieve to be the best way and as there is no fixed correct way, that in its self is going to lead an infinate amount of possibilites... One thing everyone has to remember is that we all have to live by the decisions we make, whether they be the right ones or the wrong ones and in by doing so we are all making the most of the opportunities given to us..

Pilots and firemen are all seen as hero's and admired! accountants are seen as boring and Lawyers are seen as rotweillers! simple fact is that people are shallow and a cult hero status of a pilot way out sees that of an accountant or lawyer! Hollywood has a lot to do with that!

And finally a joke for you all! sorry if you've heard it before

Police have today admitted that George Best was not in fact buried in Belfast last week, and that in retrospect the decision to cremate him in Hemel Hempstead on Sunday morning might have been a mistake

Dave Martin

16th Dec 2005, 14:53

Granted there are the unlucky ones that get nothing years on, but there are also lots of successful pilots that go straight into the rhs of a tprop/jet.

What would solve this entire argument for me is if the various FTOs published the figures of graduates versus number of job successes.

Those job success stories might only be the ones put forward by the training school, but it would still be extremely useful. I don't expect 100% or even 50% job success and obviously every student has particular qualities, but I would like to know whatever that percentage is and where these graduates are going....just seeing a general but statistically valid trend line would be a start.

Many training establishments seem only too happy to publish the first time pass rates, pass marks, liberal dosages of airline logos or glowing testimonies from the lucky ones who have found employment, but the only figures I have seen are from Oxford, and are absolute ones rather than relative. Just glancing at their site now I can't even find them again, and I may be wrong, but they never seemed like a running up-to-date commentary.

If we are expected to part with anything from £30,000 to £60,000, to pay for a minimally-transferable skill, in a saturated, volatile and possibly pessimistic job market, surely the least we could expect is an idea of how successful previous intakes were? Oxford seems unwilling to give this, but at least they seem to be doing a far better job at providing information than any other school I can think of.

Which ever school published those figures, regardless of where it was or what kind of course it offered, and probably at what cost, would win out. It is one thing for the FTO to claim it gives the best training in the world, but as all they are doing is preparing pilots for airlines; where those airlines are picking their new pilots from is the ultimate decider of quality.

League tables exist for most other tertiary education providers, budding-aviators more than ever are expected to be cautious risk-avoiders with a strong sence for economics, and yet the system at the moment seems to reward those who take a plunge at something with virtually no access to statistics and information.

In my case, no school has provided a reasonable set of historical statistics that could tell me what proportion of 30-33 year old trainees with good marks have found their way in to airline employment. I've heard some apparently do, and even some in their 50s do, but that hardly counts. How can I justify borrowing money off friends and family to fund this, without that information?

Pilots and firemen are all seen as hero's and admired! accountants are seen as boring and Lawyers are seen as rotweillers! simple fact is that people are shallow and a cult hero status of a pilot way out sees that of an accountant or lawyer! Hollywood has a lot to do with that!

Hmmmmm, I wonder how many pilots, absent from their childeren's and wive's birthdays or Christmasses, absent at odd hours of the evening, unable to drink many nights of the week, sleeping nights away, turning up home jetlagged and pi$$ed off, facing ever present down-sizing, all for half the pay of their accountant companions, maintain a cult and heroic status in the eyes of their nearest and dearest?

Redline

18th Dec 2005, 01:46

It cost me £35k several years ago, I've been flying 10 years and I've never regretted it. My observations are.

If you go to university, debt levels aren't outrageously dissimilar, and you definately don't have any job guarantees in you chosen field.

If you have the burn to do it, it wont go away. I tried to ignore it and could/should have done it years earlier.

It is a great job. Highs and lows, but better than being chained to an office desk anyday.

And finally, have any of you lot looked at bankruptcy. It really isn't that painful and now days it's can all be written off in a year. I know this sounds terribly irresponsible (coming from someone with 2 wives, 4 kids, and a cheeky smile), but do you research well and it ain't that bad an option. I did it, and (post discharge) have bought houses, secured further credit etc etc. Just be clever

:cool: and discreet. . . . .

Hope you guys and gals achieve your dreams

portsharbourflyer

18th Dec 2005, 07:37

Encouraging people to go bankrupt is not the answer. Some of us secured decent careers in order to fund the training / have a job to support the debts post training. As far as I am concerned and it is finally happening if you encourage people to file bank rupt then lending institutions will start to view lending for pilot training as too high a risk.

HSBC no longer offer loans for modular training, I was able to sucure a loan from my own bank based on my previous financial record , therefore I wasn't reliant on HSBC.

Nothing wrong with borrowing 60 - 70000 if you have the means to support the loan from a previous career post training.

In other words flying is worth the debt, but keep the debt to levels that are comfortable.

Dave Martin

18th Dec 2005, 11:18

Redline,

Gotta say I've found university to be infinately cheaper - a part-time degree at the University of London for 4 years will cost under £4,000 during which time you can hold down a full-time job. That is a far cry from the tens of thousands we're talking here. The job guarantees from a degree are non-existant but at least the probability of employment can be guaged.

I certainly wouldn't encourage anyone to declare bankrupt - akin to getting expensive training and a great job with the bill footed by the tax-payer. From an economics point of view it might sound ok, but from an ethical point of view? With all due respect, I doubt I could stomach sharing the flightdeck with someone who used this as a means to finance training. Why not just borrow the money off mates, then do a runner? At the end of the day it amounts to the same thing.

c_jephcott

18th Dec 2005, 18:42

Ok, I have just found this thread and it is making for interesting reading, as this is the debate that is going on in my mind at the moment.

I am 21 years old, in the final year of my university course now, and looking to fulfill my desire to become an airline pilot in the next few years. However, obviously, as pointed out, there are many more considerations that need to be taken.

There is no doubt that up £70000 and beyond is a massive amount of debt for anybody to obtain, and this is the fact that is scaring me above all else. For a loan that would cover those costs, I would be a long way in debt even into my 30s I'd expect. Which is a scary thought, as obviously, by the time I am 30 or so, I would very much like to be living in a house away from my parents. But with a loan of that size, it would be nigh on impossible.

The other cause for concern in my mind is that no matter which flying school I aim to go to, there is no guarantee of a job at the end of it all. Which would mean that I would effectively be up the creek without a paddle. At the moment, I am very much looking into Oxford and Cranfield on the Integrated Scheme. However, due to the fact that I own a PPL already, the modular does remain a possibility. I dare say that nobody in here will be able to tell me what the acceptance rates into airlines for modular candidates? The question that lurks in my mind is that if I was to spend up to the £40000 on the Modular, would I find myself in the same position as I could do with the £70000 loan and an integrated (f)ATPL.
Of course, on either route it is possible that I would find myself with a loan in between £40 and £70000 and no job in order to repay it.

Obviously though, it does remain to be my absolute dream to fly as a career. And personally, I would do anything I possibly could in order to achieve it.

Cheers

Chris

wbryce

19th Dec 2005, 17:14

This one always seems to pop up every couple of months....

When I initially started looking for training providers, I never knew the diffrence between modular/integrated, FAA and JAA...I think everyone looks at the figure cost as a whole and thinks the worst over finances.

If debt / finances is an issue, then do your research and start training modular! If you stay at your current job, get your PPL, class 1, 150 hours experience and perhaps do distance learning on the ATPL theory...you wont be in debt....my idea is minimise my future debt, whether that means it takes me an extra year then so be it...Id rather stay in a happy enviroment with no financial stress.

Modular costs are probably averagly around 40-45k, divide that cost over 3-4 years and its very much achievable to those on below average income with the same time frame as a respectable course at university.

On a side note, if you work and learn how to fly on your time off, it gives you something to look forward to and it certainly made my weeks go faster! 2005 has literally flew past..

happy flying.

blaston

21st Dec 2005, 07:05

Lots of good considerations covered. The only thing I can add is that I have been talking to the western Australian aviation college. They are newly approved by the CAA to run the Intergrated ATPL. No track record as they are just starting out (I would appreciate any info that anyone may have) but they offer the course for about 40K (about 20K cheaper than the other big four!). Their marketing dept say the low cost is due to cheaper fuel and living costs downunder. Having been living in oz for a bit it makes sense. Things are generally cheaper here. Hope this helps. Good luck!

sstaurus

21st Dec 2005, 15:36

c_jephcott,

I'm in your exact same position (even age!). While I'm not un the UK, and training is as far as I know still cheaper here, I've come to the conclusion that taking out a big-a55 loan like that is insane.

I've decided after University I'm going to go with modular training, allowing me to work at the same time. Well actually I'm only in 3rd year, but almost the same as you. I'm going to do my PPL during this summer break, then continue with my training when I'm done school the next year.

Just imagine how much, especially at our age, you would be blowing your life away by getting a 70,000 (£ even!!) loan! You are basically writing off 10+ years of your life to paying debt. Having no life whatsoever outside of your flying job because you can't afford to do anything, but sit in your house and eat baked beans. Personally I know I have other goals and things in life I want to do besides my flying job. If I was giving up my entire paycheque to debt, none of that is going to happen.

For me, and I imagine for most people (unless you are rich, the exceptions) the choice is clear, it is better to work full time while you train. While it will take longer, I think it is well worth it.

Anyway, just a little insight into my thinking, good luck.

ps. Not even considering the situation where you have all that debt and can't find any flying job! methinks life would be looking pretty dim then...:yuk:

pps. come to Canada with a CPL and get some bush flying in! If you truly want to experience flying before you step into a jet office...

Dave Martin

21st Dec 2005, 18:38

SSTaurus,

To be fair, given the rates of pay for non turbo-prop jobs in the UK I have to say I don't think the level of debt incurred is that bad, in the long term....if you land a jet job straight after.

I've done the math before and I would certainly be earning a substantial lot more than I am now, even paying off the 70K for 10 years. That said, I'd love to be blatting round the countryside in a TP, but the salaries seem so much lower than it just isn't worth the integrated cost.

You say being saddled with 70k of debt is a pain - well imagine if you didn't have a job at the end of it?!? The repayments on the standard loan alone are what a half reasonable job would bring in and no more! That to me is blooody terrifying!

The issue surely has got to be the probability of getting a jet job. And, for all I know, hundreds of fATPLs are being churned out every year with no where to go. I just haven't seen anything to indicate otherwise.

Byboatorplane

21st Dec 2005, 21:37

Judojames,

If I was you I'd go and get a PPL first and see how you actually like flying. If you've already done that (or flown a few hours and got the bug), then I'd be inclined to be as cautious as I could be when it comes to how much debt you're getting into..

You mentioned the fact you earn 25k now, which is not a bad salary for someone of your age. If you studied for your ATPL exams whilst working full time, you could save the money you are currently earning. Once you've completed the exams you could take a career break (If that option exists with your current employer) or resign. You could then hour build, go straight into a CPL, and then a Multi IR straight after. Having saved money whilst studying, you will have to borrow less to pay for this.

Put that together on a CV, and in reality the only "modular" part of your training is the PPL and ATPL exams. You will have had continuity throughout the "business end" of your training and as such could anticipate 1st time passes in your CPL and IR skills tests. That in itself saves a hell of a lot of money on re-test fees and aircraft hire!

In all honesty, I don't think that much emphasis is placed upon the name of a school by potential employers. Oxford for example could give you a glowing report, but come your sim assessment and interview etc, if you have a bad day, you will not get the job. If the guy after you, who went the modular route had a good day, he gets the job. It's that simple.

My advice; choose a good modular route and pay less. However, do try to complete the CPL/IR part of the training on a full time basis.

BBP

sstaurus

21st Dec 2005, 22:12

Dave,

I'm not sure I get the final direction of your post. First you say the debt isn't bad, then that integrated isn't worth the cost? I'm probably misunderstanding it here.

Anyway, if it wasn't clear, I'm all for the modular route, in order to mitigate risk to yourself and to reduce or eliminate the debt you have to take on.

70K £, that's 142,000 cdn! (or slightly less in US$) I couldn't imagine sinking myself that far into the hole. To me that doesn't sound like a reasonable amount of debt.

Cheers

mo90

22nd Dec 2005, 02:26

Hi all,

just thought i'd throw in a bit of an opposing arguement to the debate! Not sure if i'm missing something but it seems like a certain, dare i say the name....CTC..... are being overlooked. For any wannabees this has got to be worth looking at.

As a simplified explanation, 60K unsecured loan, 18 months training, thus far a 100% success rate at placing cadets in jets(as far as I know). If you start at easy - the major partner airline - you will be on a slalary (currently displayed on their site, but likely to change soon with the ongoing negotiations there) of around 26-28K after sector pay etc has been accounted for. Wilst earning this salary they pay off 1K per month from your loan - meaning around 7 years to pay it off fully.

Other partner airlines such as Thomas Cook, BA, First Choice... will pay a salary in the region of 40K from which you will pay off your own loan - a similar financial position to being at easy. I reckon I could scrape by on that salary for 7 years, :p and thats without any promotions etc.

The brucy bonus of this scheme is the shiny jet at the end, and the weight taken off your mind as you train that CTC will place you - it is highly unlikely that you will have to go hunting(lets all hope that the boom continues). The company's profit comes from 'selling' their cadets to airlines - if you don't get employment, they lose out.

Yes there are risks, but if you want the job badly then they are risks you are willing to take, CTC also cover the first 30K of your training costs should you fall at any point in the course - part of the reason their selection is tough is that they don't want you to fail - they rely on you getting through. This can't be a bad thing.

As I said I hope this post fits in with the thread - somebody had to say it :D Hope I haven't sent you all to :zzz:

Oh..and 1 last disclaimer - for the anti-CTC (Oxford) guys out there, i'm not implying that it is a better school than the others, just hoping to shed a bit of light on the finances etc - I don't feel it has to be a road to financial ruin!!!

Dave Martin

22nd Dec 2005, 12:33

Sstaurus,

Sorry, what I'm trying to say is that 70K debt, while obviously being huge, can be repaid in 10 years on a typical jet salary while still allowing a comfortable standard of living - even in London.

Where I think integrated isn't worth the cost is if you end up in a TP job, which seem to typically pay between 17K and 23K per year. Quite how one can live AND pay off the integrated course fees while on this salary I do not know. Survival might sum it up, and even though you love the job, I don't think I could justify it.

I think my point is, while the 70K sounds like a lot, if you get the jet job at the end of it then in my opinion it is probably money well spent. If you don't get the job then you have taken a massive gamble and lost - big time. In that respect I can see an advantage in modular as you are saddled with less debt, but if the job prospects with modular are lower than with integrated then there is a greater chance of failing to get "the job".

35K or 70K; if all you have at the end of it is some nice memories and a piece of paper from JAA then you are screwed either way.

Byboatorplane

24th Dec 2005, 16:44

To put all of this into perspective, I'll introduce some interesting facts when it comes to training costs and salaries.

My older brother is a tanker driver, delivering fuel to garages, airports, etc. The total cost of his training was 2k.

On boxing day he will be working one shift for £850. Yes folks, for one day at the wheel £850. The reason being the fuel shortage in the south of England following the Buncefield fire.

His net pay is £987 per week.

Granted, as far as driving jobs go, he is at the top of the tree and can earn no more. His salary in relation to pilot (FO's) earnings aren't that far apart. But the differances in training costs are huge. Makes we ask myself which brother chose the correct form of employment????

dlav

24th Dec 2005, 17:35

Like its been said before, were not doing this for the money. If we wanted to make money in life we would all be accountants in the city or something

jamojdm

25th Dec 2005, 00:23

Well said dlav

The only reason I want to be a pilot is to fly a plane.

I dont care about the debt or wages or even about money!

I already owe £12K to the UK government for my degree, and am just about to go to Jerez to get my ATPL. If i get a job flying planes I'll be the happiest man alive, otherwise oh well I still get to fly planes with my own money. Even if i live in a 1 bed flat in the middle of nowhere flying only ATP's at night I'll be happy. I want to fly planes and that's all I want. All you people out there that just want a jet job / think its a glamorous life shame on you! I cudnt care less how my life end up as long as i get to fly.

Jamo

essexboy

25th Dec 2005, 11:27

In answer to the question... No it's not worth it. don't do it.

if you want to fly find a cheaper way. It may take you longer but to get yourself a mortgage with no house is plain stupid.

wbryce

25th Dec 2005, 19:51

everyone seems to place their mind on jet jobs straight after training completion...

Is it only me that fancys turbo prop flying for a couple of years? or is the air too thin here?

Flying turbo props is where you learn how to be a pilot! :D

will

judojamesg

3rd Jan 2006, 11:03

Thanks for all of your replies. It has been most helpful.

My plan of action i think is to stay in my job which i have lots of spare time with) start my ppl asap. Then sign up for the bristol ground school work bloody hard, then hour build until i am ready to start CPL, IR etc.

Anyone rekon this is a good/ bad idea?

Thanks again to everyone for taking the time to reply.

lensman

5th Jan 2006, 17:35

Hi Chaps and Chapes'ss,
Not done this before, but quite interesting reading all your views./
Im 40, yep 40, and just about in the position to start my ATPL GS, got my PPl some years ago, have a good job paying £70k+ a year, but cant get flying for a living out of my head. Mates of mne fly for various airlines, passenger and cargo, and are all very encouraging, seems tome that its an industry about who you know andf all that with regards to getting a job and so on, abit like the one Im in now really! But the question Id like to put to you people in the know, If I was fully qualified, low hours with maybe a 73/A320 type rating, at the ripe old age of 41, would I get a job? Do you know any older starters such as myself?

lockton9334

5th Jan 2006, 17:40

lensman

5th Jan 2006, 17:42

Thanks, willdo.

lensman

5th Jan 2006, 17:55

Just read that, not too good a read, but Ive got perfect eyes, fitness and contacts within the airlines, still a no goer?

mcgoo

5th Jan 2006, 18:17

ive just renewed my class 1 medical and my ame told me he had a guy come in for his medical and he started training and got a job straight away in a 737 at age 52

Ropey Pilot

5th Jan 2006, 19:17

Fish out of water says:It's a no brainer - that amount of debt for a lifetime career that's the envy of all your mates!
The initial investment seems a lot but if you offset it against potential earnings then that cost is minimal.

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=204624

The above thread on bankrupcy may temper some of the more enthusiastic such as 'Fish'.

Most people are impressed by the career I will agree - but how impressed they are depends an whether they are stacking shelves at Tescos or earning (literally) million pound bonuses in the city and doing things with their spare time I am extremely jealous of!

lockton9334

5th Jan 2006, 19:32

Just read that, not too good a read, but Ive got perfect eyes, fitness and contacts within the airlines, still a no goer?

Guess it depends how much you REALLY want it? If money is not a problem, there is no harm in trying!

Jonathan

Dave Martin

6th Jan 2006, 09:29

Lensman,

I can't really answer your question, and I do know it will certainly be more difficult to get the job (and in some airlines impossible), but with your income you have already beaten the hurdle that strikes down most of us. If I was in your shoes I'd just go for it - if at the end of the day you can't get an airline job, so long as you arn't in debt from the course, then I don't think it would actually be badly spent money.

I know that probably sounds crazy, but the process of getting an ATPL and the potential options it opens would be a hell of an experience. If you aren't ending up in massive amounts of debt as a result it can't really be considered a terrible move (unless of course you can think of better things to spend the money on :) )

As I understand turboprop jobs may be easier to come by at your age, and are arguably closer to the concept of flying than your 737/A320 jobs are.

ask26

7th Jan 2006, 17:37

Most people are impressed by the career I will agree - but how impressed they are depends an whether they are stacking shelves at Tescos or earning (literally) million pound bonuses in the city and doing things with their spare time I am extremely jealous of!
Well most of my mates are working in the city for the Big 4, morgan stanley, goldmans, mckinseys and I don't envy them at all. I think its a bit sad that a lot of graduates main motivation in some of those careers is primarily money, there is more to life and I'm happy in doing something that is enjoyable and that provides a proper service to others.
I fail to see any justification in these million dollar bonuses - if I had a pension plan for instance I'd like to know how these big corporates are able to sponsor F1 teams and are not re-investing profits back to us who have our futures invested with them - rant over, phew.
As to whether 60-70k is worth it, you only have one life to lead so enjoy it as much as you. In my case I realised after a good deal of soul searching what I wanted to do a year ago I want to get qualified as fast as possible and give myself the best chance of getting a job that is commensurate with my ability and skills.