Galland vs Bader

[flash8]

Did Galland ever engage Bader in Combat?

I can't find any references, although I'm not know for my computer skills (FMC included!)

Thanks

[56P]

To the best of my knowledge, no. Galland hosted Bader's visit to his mess during Bader's captivity and I seem to recall seeing a TV documentary when they travelled together years after the war.

[Milt]

May be just as well that Galland and Bader did not meet in combat.

The fighter tactics insisted on by Bader were very inferior to those of Galland and his compatriots.

The finger 4 was picked up by the allies in the North African theatre and I was most appreciative of the defensive cover it provided in Korea.

[Genghis the Engineer]

I don't quite follow your logic Milt, I thought that the finger 4 WAS a Bader tactic?

G

[PPRuNe Pop]

Not so Genghis.

The Finger4 (named as such by Allied pilots) - or Schwarm to give it its German name - was evolved by Luftwaffe pilots in the Spanish Civil War. It was later codified by Molders. In absolute basic terms: The leader's wingman flew low on the sun side of the leader (so that he could be seen) while the other 2 formed up about 200 yards from the leader and each other and at different heights.

The RAF had a fairly tight V formation which took a lot of concentration and not much 'room' to keep a lookout. It proved to be dangerous.

The German tactic was later copied and modified, but not without some need for battle practice on the fly.

It appears that the only time Bader met Galland was in the German mess after he was captured.

[Genghis the Engineer]

Time I read "Reach for the Skies" again!

G

[BEagle]

They certainly met during the filming of 'Battle of Britain' - and Bader was as rude as usual.....

[Farmer 1]

Pop,

I think Bader had something to do with copying the German tactics, so credit due there. He also made a point of seeing Galland at the end of the war when he (Galland) was a prisoner. The two men had nothing but respect for each other, and Bader wanted to make sure that Galland was treated in the manner befitting.

[Genghis the Engineer]

Aha, just found a reasonably concise biography of Bader at http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/bader/bader.htm which says...

Bader, now a wing commander, left 242 Squadron and took over the "Tangmere Wing." Consisting of three Spitfire Squadrons - 145, 610 and 616 - plus a Beaufighter squadron, the wing began a series of air attacks against targets in northern France and the Low Countries. While commanding the wing, Bader introduced the so-called "finger four" formation, where the two pairs of fighters flew beside each other, scrapping forever the unwieldy three-aircraft section. Based on the Luftwaffe's Schwarm formation, the finger four later became standard throughout both the British and American air forces.

Seems my recollection wasn't quite as bad as it first seemed.

G

[PPRuNe Pop]

Bader took command of 242 Squadron in June 1940, just in time for the BoB. Almost from the start he told Leigh-Mallory that the only way to win the air battles was with a 'Big Wing' which was hardly a success. His involvement in tactical formations was very limited. He was shot down on 9th August 1941 and that is where his story ends.

No attempt had been made, except by skilled pilots like Johnny Kent, Townsend and others, to get away from the V formation. Indeed it was not until the middle of July 1940 that such pilots loosened up the V to make a partial Schwarm but..... more aircraft together were easier to see. The principals of the Schwarm improved and was later mixed with head-on attacks.

BEags assertion that Bader was a rude is correct but he did respect Galland, who was an oustanding pilot, both Bader and Robert Stanford-Tuck proved this respect time and again.


Edited: I was in error on the date that Bader was shot down. I have corrected that. My apologies.

[Farmer 1]

Pedant's hat on - I don't think he was shot down, I believe he had a collision which took off his aircraft's tail(?).

[PPRuNe Pop]

This could go into counterdrive. Bader did indeed introduce a version of finger four but it wasn't one. These attacks were known as Rhubarbs and often two aircraft flew. The Germans, however, did that first too, with what they called a Rotte and Bader copied that. They were essentially two pairs that could act as one if the boss decided.

Various historians and writers have conflicting views of which was/wasn't etc.,

As for the original question. Although it is perhaps possible there is no record of the two engaging in combat.

Farmer 1

An interesting point. But try a Google by just putting Douglas Bader in the search and you will be surprised to see that it results in him being been shot down on 9th August 1941.

Who is right? What is right?

[Farmer 1]

Pop,

Done that:
Bader’s amazing aura of invincibility was broken in 1941 when the plane he was flying collided with a German Messerschmit, and the Nazis captured him. After trying to escape several times he was transferred to Colditz, where he stayed until 1945, the end of the war. I found this on the first site I tried. I'm pretty sure this is the correct version. However, no point in arguing. He was truly a great man, an inspiration.

[Biggles Flies Undone]

Not certain (and I haven't tried Google) but I think it was Bob Stanford Tuck that had combat with Galland.

[Genghis the Engineer]

If we want to be picky, an awful lot of allied pilots engaged in aerial combat with Galland - it's just that very few survived the experience.

G

[PaperTiger]

From Gallland's obit in the Telegraph:Adolf Galland fought in the great Battles of Poland, France and Britain, leading the famous JG26 'Abbeville Boys'. He flew in combat against the RAF's best including Douglas Bader, Bob Stanford Tuck and Johnnie Johnson.No source is given, but Bader was shot down by JG26. In an interview (http://home.tiscali.be/ed.ragas/awshistory/awsbader.html) , Bader addresses the point thus:Cunningham: Did you ever engage your friend, Adolf Galland?
Bader: Adolf Galland? He was probably THE great German fighter pilot - and a great leader. He was a great chap. A nice chap, too. And he was a good shot, and everything else. But you see, we knew each other's name on the other side of the Channel, and, uh, it happened that his wing was based in Visont, behind the line on the French coast. We always came in from Tangmere on a course of about 100, 110 degrees straight over his territory, so his chaps were always up. This happened two or three times a day - I mean everyday for a long while in 1941. We didn't recognise his markings, but we knew it was his lot. We used to exchange bullets every day* from May 1941. But, he came to be a friend of mine, Adolf Galland, and we still have arguments about the old days. He comes and stays with me, you know, and he's, uh, he's a very . . . he's acquired a tremendous sense of humour. He's a very dear chap. I'm very fond of him.* Not clear if he means Galland specifically or just JG26.

[52049er]

IIRC post war they ran the BoB in a war game using Baders big wing tactics with results that were not good. Bader's 'visibility' to the public, and his disagreements about the real BoB tactics, was one of the reasons behind the relative anonymity of the real brains behind 1940, Dowding and Keith Park.

[PLovett]

IIRC the account of Bader being brought down in a collision with a German aircraft was published in "Reach for the Sky" and was certainly depicted that way in the film.

However, German records, which were quite accurate when it came to their own aircraft, do not record losing any on the day in question to a collision.

It is now a long time since I have read "Reach for the Sky" but I believe the description given was that Bader saw two German aircraft approaching but believed that he had time to engage another aircraft so he turned to attack that aircraft. It was then that the collision occured.

By turning away from attacking aircraft he committed one of the cardinal sins of air fighting - you should always turn into an attack. He presented his aircraft to be attacked from the rear which appears to have been far more likely than a collision.

The description offered in the book sounds more like a person who was unwilling to admit that he had been shot down.

[PPRuNe Pop]

http://www.raf.mod.uk/history/01arch.html

Tribute to Douglas Bader unveiled.

A statue of Sir Douglas Bader has been unveiled by Lady Bader at Goodwood. The location was known as RAF Westhampnett during the Battle of Britain, and it was from here on August 9, 1941, that Sir Douglas took off on his last wartime mission before being shot down and taken prisoner by the Germans.

This is taken from the RAF's own history section. It says that Bader was shot down. I think I prefer this to Brickhill's version and I also think PLovett is probably right.

However, there are a lot of reports that state he was involved in a mid-air. The Germans on the other hand, and after the war, reported NO mid-airs over the Pas-de-Calais on the 9th August 1941.

[sanddancer]

Whilst the idea of Bader having been involved in a midair seems to have been the accepted version of events, there was a good article in 'After the Battle' a little while ago that suggested that he had been shot down by another RAF pilot. The assertion was backed up with fairly extensive research, including some detail from German records demonstrating that no German a/c had been damaged in a midair on that day.

Think it was about three or four issues back - the most recent issue has a 'from the editor' section in which further reference is made to the incident.

[Onan the Clumsy]

Not many people know this, but the RAF almost developed the Schwarm/Finger Four tactic even before the Germans did. Unfortunately though when Group Captain Pemberton-Hodgeley demonstrated his brilliant idea to Air Vice Marshall Rippigsly-Jackbottam he held up his hand to illustrate his idea, quite forgetting that the "little incident in the last lot" where a stray Hun bullet had severed the little finger of his right hand somewhere over Verdun in April 1917.

Rippinglsy-Jackbottam (or "Botters" as he was affectionately known to the chaps) who was a little hard of hearing after a rather active night of shelling twenty years earlier, misunderstood the demonstration and thus the Echelon of Three was born.

No one had the heart (or courage) to tell Botters of the mistake and it was only after his tragic death in 1942 when his labrador knocked over his loaded shotgun after hitting it with his tail, a tail that was wagging in anticipation of a particularly delicious bone, that more practical ideas were allowed to flourish.

The rest is, of course history.

[Milt]

The Finger Four with about 200 yards seperations provides great rear cover with all having good defensive sight lines.

Disadvantage is difficulties in changing heading.

Changes of up to 60 degrees aren't too bad involving fairly larges speed changes for those on the outside.

90 degree changes are achieved with cross overs and minimal speed changes. 180 degree changes , called Turnabouts, are achieved with double cross overs.

These manoeuvres leave the formation somewhat more vulnerable as the leader is the only one having scanning freedom, the other three concentrating on anti collision in the crossovers whilst also adjusting their turn rates to end up in the right place at completion.

The Finger Four is made up of two pairs, each pair being the minimum desirable fighter element. Element leaders are the Finger Four Leader and Number 3 each with their own number 2s.

Sounds complicated but one soon gets the hang of it especially when your formation detects an incoming rear quarter attack and one of the formation has to call a BREAK just beyond the firing range of the incoming.

Of course this was all before missiles came along.

Now the prime objective of the modern fighter pilot is for him to maximise his P subscript 's" . This is his total energy - ususally the additive of his kinetic and potential energy so that he can trade one with the other for maximum advantage.

[Chimbu chuckles]

Did Galland fly post war in the reconstituted Luftwaffe?

Did Bader fly post war in the RAF?

I know he flew a bit for Shell in later years but wonder whether he lasted long in the service when the war was over.

[Genghis the Engineer]

After his release by the allies in 1947, Galland went to Argentina where he took a leading role in building up the Argentine air force (thus making an interesting case that possibly the RAF beat the Luftwaffe three times in the 20th century, not twice as is normally believed).

He returned to Germany in 1955. He was considered as chief of the newly reformed Luftwaffe, but was passed over and instead joined Air Lloyd, and later became it's chairman, working extensively as a consultant for many years.

Interestingly, although he didn't fly for the Luftwaffe again, in 1947 about the time of his release, he lectured on fighter tactics at the RAF fighter leader school - how voluntary this was the histories differ on! He also attended Bader's funeral in 1982.

I believe that he did a lot of private flying from 1962 to 1987 in a privately owned Beech Bonanza.

G

[proplover]

Gallands book is a good read.

Seem to remember a documentry on Galland where he was asked about Bader being bought down thru collision - as I remember he had a little smile and said that perhaps Bader (or the RAF) didnt believe that he could be shot down however he did believe that Bader had been. He believed that whilst no direct claim was made by any German pilot for bringing him down in the fast moving confusion of a fighter\fighter dogfight with pilots often having just fleeting shots at each other that maybee the German pilot shooting didnt even realise he'd made a critical hit on an enemy aircraft. There appeared to be no evidence at the time of a 109 being involved in a collision.

Also remember an article which discussed the likley hood of a Spitfire tail unit being shot off, the conclusion was that something like 3 x 20mm cannon rounds clustered together into the rear fuselarge with the tail under load or 1 x 30mm explosive round would do it.

[PLovett]

CC

I think Bader de-mobbed very soon after the end of the war.

There is film of him getting into the Spitfire that he flew in the fly-past at the end of the war and Brickhill wrote that he wanted to stay in the RAF but quickly realised that the war-time atmosphere was rapidly been replaced and that it wasn't for him.

I think he was offered the job with Shell at about the same time.

[GeeRam]

I think Bader de-mobbed very soon after the end of the war.

Bader left the RAF in February 1946.


I believe that he (Galland) did a lot of private flying from 1962 to 1987 in a privately owned Beech Bonanza.

And at least one more trip in a Me109....well almost, a Ha1112 Buchon to be precise.
Galland was one of the advisors on the filming of the 'Battle of Britain' and went for a flight in the 2 seat dual control Ha1112 that was used during filming. He went up in it with the Spanish AF chief pilot for the Buchon, Commondante Pedro Santa Cruz, who was an old pal of Galland's from the Spanish Civil War, and also being one of the Spaniards he flew with the Luftwaffe on the Eastern Front.
By all accounts, from those who witnessed this display it was quite something to see......:O

[gregers]

i'm not 100% sure on how they put this but i seem to remember reading elsewhere on the internet that the reason the film depicted Bader in a mid air was to protect his 'hero' status, and his reputation as an expert combat pilot. also is there and truth in the rumour about Bader and Galland flying mock combat with the Confederate Air Force in their Spitfire and Buchon?. (something else from that article). if i find the thread i read these on i will post a link here.

all the best.

Greg

[PLovett]

gregers

The film was based on the book "Reach For The Sky" by Paul Brickhill and is quite faithful to it. The book says that Bader was brought down by a mid-air collision and when the film was made (while Bader was very much alive) they stuck to the script.

I don't believe there is any account of Bader and Galland flying in CAF aircraft, in fact the only "combat" they may have had after the war was over a particular scene in the film "The Battle of Britain".

There is an excellent book on the making of that film by Mosley (forget his given name) which details the quite heated exchange that developed over the depiction of Goering's visit to the Luftwaffe squadrons based in France. I am unsure of the exact details (it's some time since I read the book) but I believe the film makers wanted (with I believe Bader's support - "We won the bloody war didn't we!") the depiction of a very angry Goering, the German advisers, including Galland, said that this was wrong. It led to a stand off with Galland withdrawing his support for a time.

I think a compromise was worked out that suited all parties in the end.

[tinpis]

Saw him up close once when he came to visit my school in the 50s
We had a "tin legs" student who had lost both his legs in a hay baler.

[gregers]

Thanks for the info PLovett, i have been browsing through my magazines for an article (possably in flypast?) about Bader and Galland meeting at the C.A.F, i remember seeing a pic of the two gentlemen together with a Spitfire. it may be an old pic from the BoB film though??? to be honest i can't see the CAF 'lending' these two gentlemen their almost priceless aircraft for 'a bit of a jolly' its just what i read on the net a while back.

another question, when sir Douglas flew for Shell, did he fly their dH Herron?. i am asking this because i am making two models of the spitfire Va and Hurricane he flew and wonder weather to do the shell aviation herron and display it with them. (i have the original Airfix herron with the markings for this aircraft) and also i would like to do a model of the aircraft he crashed in, i have read about the crash and reports differ about the type, the list so far is, gamecock, siskin, gauntlet and bulldog. any ideas as to the exact type of aircraft and serial will be greatly recieved.

all the best.

Greg

[tinpis]

I have seen footage of Stanford Tuck and Galland together at the CAF.

Seem to remember a photo of Bader in a small single post war , was it a SAAB Safir belonged to Shell?

[PLovett]

tinpis

The only civilian aircraft that I can recall seeing a photo of with Bader was a Miles Gemini (I stand to be corrected on that) which I believe was a twin. However, I think his first aircraft with Shell may well have been a single.

I think later Shell later gave him a Beech Travelair which became his personal aircraft but I also stand to be corrected on that.

[Milarity]

Tinpis,

As a teenager I once had the privilege of spending an evening listening to Adolf Galland and Bob Stanford Tuck telling thrilling tales of aerial combat.

My ATC Sqn had dug up the engines of Galland’s ME 110. It had crashed on a day when Galland had been called to Berlin. His deputy had gone u/s on start-up and so took the boss’s personal plane, probably not a good career move in hindsight. The engines were cleaned-up and one went on display at Southend Air Museum. Galland was invited over for a dinner and presentation do, and bought his friend Stanford Tuck along with him.

I only wish that I could remember some of the tales that they told, they held us spellbound at the time. My only excuse is that it was a long time ago, and I was very, very drunk at the time...

[Mark22]

The evidence that Douglas Bader was shot down by Flt.Lt. Lionel 'Buck' Casson of 616 Squadron is pretty compelling and stands up to extensive scrutiny.

Mark22

[Onan the Clumsy]

The only civilian aircraft that I can recall seeing a photo of with Bader was a Miles Gemini Cecil Lewis flew one - to Jo'burg :8

[PLovett]

Mark 22

The evidence that Douglas Bader was shot down by Flt.Lt. Lionel 'Buck' Casson of 616 Squadron is pretty compelling and stands up to extensive scrutiny.

Would you please advise me where this information is to be found. I have long thought he was shot down but by Germans and not "friendly" fire. Would be very interested to read the reference.

[Footless Halls]

Slight 'thread creep' I admit, but evidence of Cecil Lewis's piloting of a Gemini to Jo'burg can be found in his book, aptly entitled "Gemini to Jo'burg", to be seen on the Footless Halls bookshelves.

And very strange it is too - the non-flying aspects, anyway

[Mark22]

Mark 22



Would you please advise me where this information is to be found. I have long thought he was shot down but by Germans and not "friendly" fire. Would be very interested to read the reference.

For starters I would recommend reading the 24 page article in 'After The Battle Magazine' Number 125 by Andy Saunders.

It is available here:- http://www.afterthebattle.com/home.htm

You can expect further developments on this story later this year.

Thinking of the Red Baron here, can you imagine a German fighter pilot who wouldn't want to claim Bader as a 'kill'. There were no claims.

One RAF claim was made, after the War, by 'Buck' Casson, also downed and taken prisoner, as Bader, in France on the 9th August 1941 - a Me109 that he shot the tail off and saw the pilot bail out. This claim however does not fit with the two fully researched Luftwaffe losses of that day.

Mark22

[PPRuNe Pop]

No it doesn't and I believe the RAF records - that Bader WAS shot down.

PPP

[PPRuNe Pop]

No it doesn't and I believe the RAF records - that Bader WAS shot down.

PPP

[PPRuNe Pop]

I re-instated this thread because there is a programme on C4 to-morrow night (28th) at 7.0 p.m. about how Bader's Spitfire came to ground. It should be very interesting - I believe they searched for his aircraft, which may or may not prove revealing.

Anyway 'heads up' for it.

PPP

[ormus55]

bader flew a miles gemini for shell, think it was a twin?
he was given an aircraft by shell when he retired, but cant remember if it was the miles or not?

shell had quite a few aircraft at that time. lady bader often flew with bader on his business with shell.

i met bader once in a bagshot service station. he was very standoffish.
not exactly rude but not very pleasant either.
it took the gloss off a boyhood hero of mine. another dream shattered!

[ormus55]

ps.
it was many yrs later when reading about bader, that i realised the famous scene in the, reach for the sky film, where bader meets thelma edwards, was in fact the pantiles cafe.
which is/was next door to the very same service station where i met bader!

also has anyone heard about the story regarding baders tin legs being dropped into germany?
was it true or not?

http://pages.zdnet.com/hookares/royal-navy-medic-1945/id36.html

[Brewster Buffalo]

Bader was captured by German forces, who treated him with great respect due to his piloting skills. General Adolf Galland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Galland), a German flying ace, notified the British of his damaged leg and offered them safe passage to drop off a replacement. The British responded on 19 August (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/August_19) 1941 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1941) with the 'Leg Operation'- an RAF bomber was allowed to drop a new prosthetic leg by parachute to St Omer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St_Omer), a Luftwaffe base in occupied France. The Germans were less impressed when, task done, the bomber proceeded onto its bombing mission over Germany.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douglas_Bader

[PLovett]

PPP

Would you please provide a summary of the program. Whilst a lot of UK stuff finally makes it to the colonies there can be some considerable delay. I, for one, would be very interested in their findings.


I'll do my best! PPP

[ormus55]

Bader was captured by German forces, who treated him with great respect due to his piloting skills. General Adolf Galland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Galland), a German flying ace, notified the British of his damaged leg and offered them safe passage to drop off a replacement. The British responded on 19 August (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/August_19) 1941 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1941) with the 'Leg Operation'- an RAF bomber was allowed to drop a new prosthetic leg by parachute to St Omer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St_Omer), a Luftwaffe base in occupied France. The Germans were less impressed when, task done, the bomber proceeded onto its bombing mission over Germany.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douglas_Bader


well it must be true then, if its in wikipedia.:=

[chiglet]

FWIW...:E
The STANDARD Luftwaffe formation was the ROTTE,or Pair. Two ROTTEN made a Schwarme...Anorak mode OFF :ok:
watp,iktch

[ormus55]

if just reread the book by WC laddie lucas, about bader.
he was given a beech travelair from shell. G-APUB.
not the miles twin gemini. G-AMGF

http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k162/ormus55/gapub.jpg

[jabberwok]

I think Shell bought G-APUB in 1963 and Douglas used it as his personal aircraft. When he retired in 1969 they gave it to him as a present and he continued to fly it up to the late 1970's.

I met Douglas a few times during his travels in the Beech and found him a very courteous gentleman. I appreciate that not everyone has shared the same experience.

[tinpis]

If anyone can find an old copy of Newnes Pictorial Knowledge circa 1952 there is a photo in there of Bader flying a Shell aircraft from memory a Saffir?

(Oh soz was it a Proctor)?

[ormus55]

anyone know the reg number of the proctor that bader flew for shell, before the miles twin?

[jabberwok]

It was G-AHWU - see http://www.pprune.org/forums/archive/index.php/t-102783.html

[PPRuNe Pop]

A very well put together programme. I was very taken with the enthusiasm and the delving into facts before concluding that Bader was almost certainly shot down by another Spitfire.

[DH106]

I agree - good program.

[REF]

very intersting to see the programme on C4 tonight, I was rather surprised to see that the evidence points to his aircraft being lost to "friendly fire" if there is such a thing.

Thought it was very touching at the end when they gave the widow of the other spitfire pilot the flying hat and goggles they found at the crash site of her late husband, brought a lump to ones throat.

[ZH875]

Just spooky how the aircraft they dug up had its pilots helmet and goggles inside, with the initials 'DB' on.

Maybe the story put around by Bader was done to hide the truth and protect the 'guilty' party.

We may never know.

But love him or hate him, you have to admire his fighting spirit.

[ormus55]

he was a great fighter pilot, never mind one with no legs.
the record speaks for itself.

he once played 36 holes (in a day) at camberley heath golf club, to win a competition!
simply awesome.

[Yarpy]

The programme was nicely covered by (of all papers) the Gaurdian:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/tv_and_radio/story/0,,1860125,00.html

I like the comment regarding the possibility that a colleague had shot him down:

'If he realised that had happened and changed his story to protect a friend then, admit it, that is pretty damn heroic.'

[RevMan2]

Airline mislays athlete's leg
In just seven days Paralympic athlete Kate Horan is due to line up in the 100 metres at the IPC Athletics World Championships in Assen in the Netherlands. But there's a hitch – British Airways has lost her leg.
The Wellington athlete's $10,000 running leg has been missing for more than a week, sitting somewhere in a London warehouse with 20,000 other pieces of luggage.
"It's the worlds – this is the biggest event apart from the Paralympics," Horan said. She has been preparing for the championships for two years.
Since British authorities foiled a terrorist plot to attack flights out of Heathrow Airport, increased security has forced travellers to limit their carry-on luggage.
For Horan that meant she had to check in her running leg for the short flight from London to Amsterdam a week ago.
It was the first time the unique leg was not with her as carry-on luggage. And British Airways told her there was little it could do. "They said there's 20,000 bags sitting in Heathrow and mine is just one of them. I was told they don't know where it is."
Horan is now in a race against time with manufacturer Otto Bock and Ossur, which will attempt to build her another leg in time for the world championships. "I head to Holland today," she said. "And I'm going straight to the factory. These sort of legs take weeks to fine tune. At the moment that's the only possibility I've got.
"All the time that I should be training and getting myself ready, I'm going to be spending trialling this leg and trying to get a leg that fits."

[beamer]

Many years ago I spoke to some 'linies' at Cranwell who had the 'pleasure' of refuelling Bader's civilian aircraft in the 70's; lets just say that he was not on their Xmas card list from that day onwards.

Absolutely charming when the situation required but could be a right **** particuarly to those of lower 'rank' . .

[LowNSlow]

The Channel 4 program was good, it does seem quite conclusive that Bader was shot down by "friendly fire".

My dad was no fan of the man as Bader put him on a charge for not wearing his cap despite the fact that Dad was up to his neck in a Hurricane at the time.