Old CAA PPL valid for hiring aircraft in France?

[Whirlybird]

I just heard of two British PPLs who were told they couldn't hire an aircraft in France as they didn't have JAA PPLs - they've both had licences for years and years, so of course they're the old CAA ones. I heard this about third-hand so it could have got confused in the telling. But is this the case? Do you actually need to exchange your lifetime validity CAA PPL for a 5-year JAA one, if you want to hire an aircraft in France? Or is someone talking complete rubbish, as I suspect? Anyone know for certain?

[IO540]

May I add a related question?

From the viewpoint of an F-reg plane in France, what is the difference between

a) a UK (not JAA) PPL, and

b) a South African, American, Israeli PPL

It seems to be that ALL of the above are ICAO PPLs and rank equally. Does the French AIP distinguish between the countries?

[BillieBob]

Second question first - There is no difference between a UK (not JAA) PPL (or CPL or ATPL) and any other ICAO licence and this is the nub of the problem. Each, in broad terms, is valid only for use in the airspace of or the aircraft of the country of issue - it's not quite as simple as that but I don't have all night!

Prior to the introduction of JAR-FCL and mutual recognition, it was necessary to have a national licence validated by the Authority of another country in order to fly aircraft registered in that or a third country. This is still the case for pre-JAR licences and so you will need to have your UK national PPL validated by the DGAC before you may hire a French registered aeroplane in France

[Adrian N]

Absolutely not the case.

I have lived in France for the last 5 years, renting many aircraft for flights within France and to neighbouring countries, and still use my CAA PPL. The DGAC couldn't care less, as long as the licence is valid.

[rustle]

Excellent.

That cleared that up nicely. ;)

[Adrian N]

Indeed!

To answer the original questions:

1) Is someone talking complete rubbish?

Yes.

2) Does anyone know for certain?

Yes. Me. I checked with the DGAC when I moved to France, and the two clubs that I belong to have both independently checked with the DGAC to ensure there is no problem. Both are happy.

[Hour Builder]

What BillieBob should have said is that if you don't have a JAR-FCL licence, it is recommended that you check with the relevent authority to enusre everything is ok. Either they'll ask you to validate your licence, or as Adrian N said, they won't care less as long as your licence is valid.

having a JAR FCL licence there is no need to even contact the DGAC in this case.

Please correct me if I am wrong

HB

[Whirlybird]

What's the DGAC?

[Hour Builder]

Direction Générale de l'Aviation Civile (D.G.A.C.)

French version of CAA

HB

[BillieBob]

What Billiebob should have said is precisely what Billiebob did say - it is always better to check the relevant source material than to rely on dodgy opinions. The DGAC website makes it quite clear that validation of a foreign licence is required in order to exercise the privileges on a French aircraft.L'objet d'une validation en France est de permettre l'exercice de privilèges conférés par une licence étrangère pour la conduite d'un aéronef français.Why not, as Hour Builder suggests, contact the DGAC and find out for sure?

[Hour Builder]

well Billybob what you did say is, "This is still the case for pre-JAR licences and so you will need to have your UK national PPL validated by the DGAC" and this is not always the case as proven by Adrian N

HB

[Whirlybird]

So the concensus seems to be that you'll probably be OK just expecting to be able to fly in France on your CAA licence, but you might not, so contacting the DGAC first might be a good idea.

Have I got that right?

[CBG]

No need to contact the DGAC.

UK "old" PPL holders can legally fly F reg aircrafts in France. This is my case:

I am French. I learnt to fly in the UK 10 years ago. I have an old CAA PPL. When I moved back to France, I wanted to make sure I could fly there too. I called the DGAC who told me that the following law: "Arrete du 24 Mars 1997 modifiant l'arrete du 24 Juillet 1991 relatif aux conditions d'utilisation des aeronefs civils en aviation generale - NOR EQUA9700539A" states that any French aircraft can be flown by PPL holders from EU member states.

I always carry a copy of this thing with my license, just in case, but I never had any problems

[susan burgess]

Hi
I am a flying instructor (English) in France and my Aero Club will not allow solo flight without a JAR Licence.

I would be most grateful if the French person who posted a reply would email me in English and French with the actual law so that I can show this to my Aero Club.

I find that the DGAC seem to ignore some JAR rules and insist on others this is most frustrating and very confusing.
my email address is [email protected]

A positive result on this would certainly make my life easier.

[CBG]

Flying clubs in France who will only accept PPLs delivered in France or JAR are just ignorant of the law. The thing is: nothing can prevent a given flying club to rule that they will only rent to pilots holding national licences.

Susan, PM me a fax number and I'll send you a copy of the Law.

[susan burgess]

Thanks for the quick reply.
I do not have a fax number however I shall find a friend's number and list it soon.Please reply to my email address and then I can discuss the subject further with you.