Great Flyer article from Flying Dutch on Mountain Flying

[QDMQDMQDM]

Hello FD,

Really enjoyable article. Mr. Seager needs electric shock therapy, however, for his erroneous views on the Super Cub!

I am hoping to take my Super Cub down to Meribel next year and do the full summer rating in it. I have identified some 15-20% slopes here on the West face of Exmoor which I hope to practice into with a tailwind. It's the nearest I can get to an altisurface, although, actually, I can name some pretty challenging strips here in Devon. One is 200m, one way, with a side slip past a tree and once you're on short final I don't think there's a go-around, so if you land too long you have had it.

I have got a 240m field here next to the house with an 8ft hedge at each end that I have earmarked the next time the wind is favourable. The machine can do it easily...

Of course, you don't have altitude and turbulence issues here in quite the same way.

Anyone else got any really good, challenging strips near the West country? I'd love to have a go.

Cheers,

QDM

[PPRuNe Towers]

A bit of a cross country but I'd suggest Nayland as being a very useful warmup and a great welcome to boot:ok: :ok:

Regards
Rob

[Flyin'Dutch']

Q,

Thank you for your kind words.

It was a hard task to spend a week in Megeve to get all the work in, so I am very pleased that you enjoyed the article. The writing handywork was the bosses'

I had to concentrate on the flying and modelling.

:}

You can rest assured that Mr S's treatment in capable hands.

:E :E

We hope to go back in the spring of 06 to finish off the Qualification Montagne (I know your heart must bleed for us)

A trip in the Maule could very well fit into that cunning plan.

I know we are not in Devon but if you want to come over to do some stripping up here, feel free to drop me a PM.

This ain't Devon or the Midlands but thought you would like it nevertheless:

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b108/frankvoeten/20050930MegeveFlying034.jpg

[Monocock]

Mr Seager's views on the Super Cub had me surprised too.

I have been having fun in Luscombes and Taylorcrafts for the past few years but those who know me are fully aware that I am working hard towards saving up for an immaculate SuperCub...

How dare he criticise the perfect craft for agrarians. He fiddles around in a Mooney and has the audacity to moan about the humble (yet practically perfect) Cub.

My only concern is that as fast as I earn, the Cub's values still outpace me!!

One day....:rolleyes:

P.S To stay in line with this thread....I agree it was an excellent article indeed...:D

[DubTrub]

Woe is me:{
I thought Monocock had seen the error of his ways with CofA ownership.
What can a Supercub do for you that your Taylorcraft can't?

(hope you're friendly with your bank manager!)

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

Forget the Super Cub. Go for a nice little L4. Now that is an aeroplane of character. :ok:

SSD

[DubTrub]

Go for a nice little L4 Or L2, I say...but then he owns the civvy equivalent already:p

[QDMQDMQDM]

L4 with a 90HP engine and wing tank would be a pretty good substitute for a 150HP Super Cub. If I was looking for a 150 and one of these came up in good nick I would be very tempted and save myself £20K into the bargain.

FD, how long do you think it will take you to get the sign-off, weather permitting? I hope to try and do it in a week. I have a lot of time now in the SC going into challenging strips and some experience of the Alps, so I hope that might be possible. Turbulence, wind and DA are the key differences, along with mountain navigation and strips with no go around, but aircraft handling is aircraft handling.

I must admit I do find summer flying in the Alps fairly hair raising, but that is probably a good thing!

Anyway, this afternoon I spent tootling around Exmoor at 200 feet agl or so most of the time (yeah, yeah complied with Rule 5, so don't any Jobsworths post and tell me off), checking out prehistoric earthworks and going into a number of farmer's fields. The shortest landing roll was under 50m and total field used 100m or so. That's what a SC is about: I could have landed in almost any field I flew over. There aren't many other aircraft one feels this comfortable in. I know Ian Seager wants to sell more mags and be provocative, but honestly! Also, they handle beautifully at low speed and down low.

Thanks for the tips on Nayland and I'd love to make it up your way sometime FD. We can bitch about various things in our professional life too!

Cheers,

QDM

[IanSeager]

I've had quite a few people give me their opinions on how great the Cub is. Believe it or not I wrote it because it's what I found, noto to sell more copies although that's obvioulsy always welcome :-)

So, just to be clear...

Cubs are seriously capable aircraft
Cubs are seriously beautiful aeroplanes
The Cub I flew in France had rubbish handling when compared to say a Jodel or a Chipmunk.


Ian

[Flyin'Dutch']

Am I even a bit slower than normal today? What article?

This month's edition of Fl**r magazine.

Q,

They reckon about 20 hours.

Turbulence, wind and DA are the key differences, along with mountain navigation and strips with no go around, but aircraft handling is aircraft handling.

When they first go flying with you and let you solo the conditions will be calm with winds below 5-10kts. Our instructor was at great pains to point out that flying into most strips with more than 15kts would be 'unclever' and that some in some wind directions are to be positively avoided (Courchevel in southerly winds)

Good aircraft handling skills will no doubt be useful, I would not know :}

The approach technique they use is a bit different to what we do when going into a short strip.

Rather than dragging it in they come in fairly steep, certainly steeper than I was used to.

All good fun!

FD

[QDMQDMQDM]

Ian,

You're right , of course. The Cub has a big fat aerofoil and huge wings. It is sluggish in roll, more responsive in pitch.

A chippie is a hot ship, renowned for its excellent handling and as a preparation for a Spitfire. A Jodel is a beautiful machine, but you won't have the visibility and ultra-low speed handling of a Cub.

If you want to tool about at low speed, enjoy the view and get in and out of strips which make your eyes water, with heavy loads you can't beat it. But, you will obviously never get fighter-like handling. Ye cannae have everything!

FD,

It sounds fantastic. I really look forward to it. One day, I want to fly in here:

http://www.pilotlist.org/montagne/lacfourchu.html

200m strip at 7000ft amsl, 15% incline

QDM

[Flyin'Dutch']

One day, I want to fly in here:

You mean something like this:

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b108/frankvoeten/20050930MegeveFlying038.jpg

:}

And a few more for good measure:

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b108/frankvoeten/20050930MegeveFlying039.jpg

and:

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b108/frankvoeten/20050930MegeveFlying004.jpg

As you say the scenery is breathtaking but makes you realise that you have to be well behaved at all times!

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b108/frankvoeten/20050930MegeveFlying014.jpg

[Adrian N]

Great pics FD, but Lac Fourchu isn't at all like St Jean d'Arves. It is one of the most idyllic spots in the Alps, but quite terrifying!

Here is a link to a video of landing there. (http://www.afpm.org/Videos/fourchu.mpg)

In a Mousquetaire, I'm told that the technique is to cross the lake at 160 km/h, pull up and touch down where the Husky in the video touches. If you misjudge anything, you crash - something which happens quite a lot. I know 3 people who've crashed there if you ever need to be talked out of trying!

Not one for me.

[QDMQDMQDM]

Adrian,

That looks very hairy! The video gives a good sense of the way in which ground speed increases with altitude and DA. He was really steaming in for a Husky.

I wonder what he was indicating? Not more than 75mph, surely? He was carrying a lot of power going in and increased it as he came over the lake.

Indicating 100mph on the approach would be almost impossible for a cub. I find it amazing that a Mousquetaire has to do that. That gives a groundspeed well over 100mph. Into a 200m strip?! Christ!

It looks bad, but apart from height, not a lot worse than that crazy strip you showed me and Richard a couple of years ago, where Jerome crashed the L4.

Cheers,

David

[Adrian N]

Never having landed at Lac Fourchu, I can't really comment. The 160 km/h approach was described by someone who flew with the legendary Henri Giraud. His technique was different from that which is usually taught, and involved a high-speed flat approach, level with or below the touchdown point. (He says that he approached at 180km/h to his landing on the summit of Mont Blanc, in a 150hp Cub.)

Lac Fourchu needs a lot more precision than La Croix Rosier, where I took you. It's 200m long, with a slope of 30% for the first 20 or 30m, then 15% and decreasing. If you look closely at the video, you'll see that about 1 second before touching down they fly over a boulder at the top of the unlandable section. That boulder has removed quite a few undercarriages in its time, so there is no margin for error if you land short. If you fly a fast approach intending to touch down on the steep slope, and overshoot slightly, the ground will appear to fall away from you as the slope flattens, and you will land very long. :uhoh:

Croix Rosier is a little longer (about 230m), has a relatively gentle slope at the touchdown point which makes life quite easy, and then a steepening slope to help you slow down. It is also very smooth, unlike Lac Fourchu.

The other notorious problem with Lac Fourchu is the takeoff. At most altisurfaces, you can trade height for speed straight after takeoff. At Lac Fourchu, assuming you miss the rocks on the left, you need to climb as soon as you are off the ground.

Check this take off video. (http://www.afpm.org/Videos/Fourchu-decollage.mpg)

It's a place that needs a level of skill and currency that I don't have, unfortunately.

[Flyin'Dutch']

A few challenges for next year's trip.

:}





Only joking. That looks like serious stuff. 'Fraid that even after 20 hours of training I would not contemplate that!

[QDMQDMQDM]

Hello Adrian,

180km/h IAS is about 112mph. The idea of an approach and landing at that speed in a PA18-150, even at 15000ft+ is pretty mindboggling. Somebody who can use one of these things can use their whizz wheel to tell us what the TAS would be -- pretty damned high, I think!

I wonder if people wiping out their undercarriage is anything to do with flying in in low wing aircraft? I can't imagine it helps when judging proximity to a rock.

Anyway, for the moment the idea of La Croix Rosier is bottom-puckering enough for me!

David

[Flyin'Dutch']

From memory.

About 145 mph TAS.

[Adrian N]

Hi David,

Indeed, an incredible speed for an approach in a Super Cub. If you have an ultra-fast connection, click here to see the film of the exploit. (http://www.afpm.org/Videos/23JUIN60-MPEG-1.mpg) (Over 100Mb.)

Giraud described it at his greatest ever achievement, saying:

C'était le 23 juin 1960, je me suis posé à 4807 m avec un Piper sur une arête où il y a la place de faire atterir deux hélicos. Et pas question d'attérrir à l'horizontal. Il faut se jeter dans la paroi à 180km/h. Graver la pente et s'arrêter pile sur le sommet! C'est diabolique!

(Sorry for the French.)

He also said j'ai horreur de la médiocrité.

[Flyin'Dutch']

He also said j'ai horreur de la médiocrité

Don't we all?

Unfortunately most of us will have to contend with being just that, at best.

:(

[Chimbu chuckles]

flyin'Dutch'

Generally speaking you should be making a normal approach to steep strips...and that makes it look a lot steeper than it is....try this...stretch out your arm aimed slightly down to simulate a three degree approach with your hand cocked to look like the level airstrip at the bottom...then cock your hand up like a 20% slope strip and you'll see why it looks so much steeper.

I did about 6000 hrs of bush flying in my 20s and approaching flat like some of those vids above was a sure recipe for disaster at high DAs....at really steep strips you had to look really 'high' all the way down...conversely the strips where you landed downhill before staggering through a wet, muddy patch and rolling up the hill on the other side you needed to look low all the way down final.

In actual fact though you were always making the same approach that you would make in a normal landing at a long strip...except for steep ones you added extra speed to give the energy required for round out and flare.

Not many of the strips were as extremely short as some here but 350m was common and we were dragging FULLY loaded C185s and Islanders in and out....ISA+20 and elevations around 5000-8000+ plus tropical weather rounded off the fun....many were as rough as guts too.

Shedloads of fun...but after 6000+ hrs I figured my luck couldn't hold forever....and went on to boring airline flying:ok:

[date off waiter]

Haven't seen the article but the secrets of the QM had to reach the mainstream UK sometime. A few articles over the years about lobbing into the altiports and getting local endorsements but the full thing has never really been a must have tick for us Brits.

FD/IS I'll have to read the story. If the cub was rubbish it'll have been a one-off. I used one throughout the 20 hours I did for the rating except for the mandatory visit and test at another altiport other than base - and as Courcheval was handiest we used a D140 for its wheels - the cub being on skis only. I guess if I read the article I'll find out if your cub was wheel/ski which may have contributed to the problem. I wouldn't know I've never flown one with that fit.

All things considered for fun, security and handling the the PA-18-150 is hard to beat. Much less than 150 horse and even a Cub is struggling to get round the altisurfaces and glaciers on a full training day, Maule's are a tad heavy, the Mousquetaire is nice and capable, handy if your sharing the transits between trainees but still a bit of a car, expensive and hard work to dig out if you have that misfortune.

QDMYou'll have your own reasons for going to Meribel - I did as well. Great place to train and loads of places to try-many not in the AIP. Soloing from there is also good - you can build your experience on the altisurfaces and several of the big glaciers but you'll look up to the NE and always hanker to go to the Mt Blanc massif and once there you'll want to stay. Megeve is the answer.

BTW from your posts and locale I guess you might know a medic -P.H. I wonder does he fly ? If not - it's just series of connections - nae bother. Enjoy the Alps when you get there I can't anymore Prosper M got me. Guess I'll just have to ski now - what a bore.

dow.

[Flyin'Dutch']

FD/IS.............................. If the cub was rubbish it'll have been a one-off.

Careful now.

IS is all on his uppy own when it comes to the Cub side of the story.

There are few stauncher supporters of the mark than moi meme.

Ian is fully aware that he is a brave man.

:}

[date off waiter]

Finally got to scan the article in Smugs in the station and couldn't see the Cub insults - maybe they were elsewhere in the comic.

Anyway the story gave a bit of a feel for the fabulously different world of French Alpine flying. FD I should've read your profile before calling Maules a bit portly. That's only as far as ski work goes, actually I always wanted one even though calling a fabric covered road kill hauler a Lunar Rocket is asking for trouble.

As a by the by, QDM remarked that handling is handling, which is true, but I guess a few of the Winter techniques are a bit alien to flat field British tailwheelers. They are the main differences which account for the two classes of Autorisation Montagne. The Winter rating gives both Sol et Extension Niege privileges though you'd be wise to check out in summer conditions before pitching up with your Winter aquired piece of paper. The stronger anabatic (read tail) and other wind effects and very variable summer surfaces are tricky as you probably found. Is that just Megeve in the photographs ? - I don't recognize it without snow.

I guess the strangest piece of adaptation you go through is the method of accessing some of the choice corners of the glaciers dealing with slopes around 40%, applying up to full power after touchdown then as you continue up slope, stick forward to unload the tail - just enough - hard rudder, aileron to prevent a ski digging in, power off while aligning with the take off axis reference and then plummeting again whilst controlling any transverse slide. It is different even from the altisurface techniques on differing T/O and landing axes and each place has its own problems.

C Chuckles said that normal approach speeds and gradients should be used and indeed the French teach that, but with significant differences. They use 300ft circuits on the glaciers and altisurfaces, and use power to control speed and attitude to control aiming point - pointe de touche is a separate assessment, and as he also said speeds can be incremented for steep slopes and turbulence naturally. Though since it's all for fun why bother if it's bumpy? You don't carry a shovel and snow shoes for nothing. I couldn't say why M Giraud used such high speeds but from the film there appears to be a good 15 kt breeze on the Dome de Gouter. I've only met two other Frenchmen who've repeated that flight - one in a PA-18 and they didn't mention excessive speed.

As for Fourchu - I can see the attraction but I never had the currency or skill to try it. No French instructor that I knew would go there, though there are two fairly regular British winter visitors that I know of.

It does get busy up on the glaciers especially on the first day after a spell of snow so a bit of Frech is mightily helpful.

Everybody should go there but fortunately few do.

dow

[Adrian N]

The Winter rating gives both Sol et Extension Niege privileges though you'd be wise to check out in summer conditions before pitching up with your Winter aquired piece of paper. That's changed, fortunately. The summer and winter conditions are so different, and summer is so much more difficult than winter in general, that you now have to pass two separate flight tests, and the DGAC issue separate ratings.
I guess the strangest piece of adaptation you go through is the method of accessing some of the choice corners of the glaciers dealing with slopes around 40% Hmmmm.... In my very humble opinion, nobody should be attempting to land on the steeper slopes if they are not an expert, very very current (i.e. flying to glaciers several times a week), very experienced and flying someone else's aeroplane. "Normal" glacier pilots wouldn't go beyond a 30% slope, and then only if it flattened out at the turnaround point to minimise the chance of getting the downhill ski stuck when turning. Digging a plane out of the snow on that kind of slope is not a task to contemplate lightly, and you can't get anyone to land and help you either.why bother if it's bumpy? You don't carry a shovel and snow shoes for nothing.Very much depends where you are. First, actually using the shovel and snow shoes can be a miserable and exhausting experience, and should be avoided at all costs. Second, if it's turbulent on approach in winter, it means it's windy. You don't land on glaciers in strong winds. There are some places where you may get a windy and turbulent approach, but then find it turns calm on short final (Talèfre glacier in a South wind, for example), and there are some snow covered altisurfaces where you can land safely in very strong winds. But they are the exception, and in general strong wind reduces you chance of making a precise touchdown, very often causes blowing snow which disrupts visual perception of the touchdown point, and over the space of a few hours can cause wave effects in the snow which can break your undercarriage. I couldn't say why M Giraud used such high speeds but from the film there appears to be a good 15 kt breeze on the Dome de Gouter. I've only met two other Frenchmen who've repeated that flight - one in a PA-18 and they didn't mention excessive speed.Giraud is the only person to have landed at the summit of Mont Blanc, other than a flexwing microlight pilot. The Dôme du Goûter is different - quite a lot of people go there. It has no particular technical difficulty, other than that associated with altitude and surface conditions. In recent years the crevasses have stayed open throughout most of the season, or have only been covered by weak snow bridges. You need to know exactly where is safe and where isn't. As for Fourchu - I can see the attraction but I never had the currency or skill to try it. No French instructor that I knew would go there, though there are two fairly regular British winter visitors that I know of.The Megève instructors don't go there, but there are lots of others who do, mostly from Grenoble Le Versoud. I can't imagine myself ever going there, and if I'm not mistaken one of the Brits who lands there is Pete Kynsey - who falls firmly into the "very expert" category!Everybody should go there but fortunately few do.Agree, and fortunately, I do! :)

[QDMQDMQDM]

Chaps,

Can we have some more personal recommendations for the QM wheels then? Courchevel, Megeve, Meribel, other?

Cheers,

QDM

[Flyin'Dutch']

We did Megeve, partially as there is not a lot happening in the Alps in September and Courchevel/Meribel would have been difficult accommodation/food wise as there is hardly anything open.

Megeve on account of being so much lower is a more all year round lived in village/town.

The field there is very easy and the instructors would be happy to come and pick you up in the Cub from a nearby low land airfield and fly you into Megeve.

Megeve is very easy and both Courchevel and Meribel are only a short hop away from it.

Others that I know have had very good experience with Robert at Courchevel.

Think the bottomline is that you have to decide where you go.

Seems a very small world and everyone we met was very friendly and helpful.

Let me know if you want to have a chat.

[TheKentishFledgling]

Can we have some more personal recommendations for the QM wheels then? Courchevel, Megeve, Meribel, other?

Intending to ski as well, or just fly? I've only flown from Meribel, so can't offer much in that respect, but as regards the skiing.....myself and les 3 valleés are fairly well acquainted....even regarding watching / dreaming about flying from les altiports.....could help advise if required.

tKF