RAF Chinooks head to quake zone

[Lyneham Lad]

I am surprised that there has been no comment on the forum (unless it is tucked away in another thread) regarding the departure by C17 of the Wokka's to Pakistan (see http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4366438.stm)

There is a clear and desperate, overdue need for heavy lift helicopters to aid the earthquake victimes. However, given the existing strain on the RAF's equipment and manpower, I do wonder which of Bliar's many adventures are going to go short. What and who is going to be jeopardised?

[RileyDove]

Lyneham Lad - Tony has an expensive house in London to pay for and a high maintainance wife so he needs to have something to put in the autobiography. Good to see the Chinooks going to help people - makes a refreshing change!

[MaroonMan4]

LL,

I have just come off the Fishead post on some exercise that they have been on and there is a view point on the media point of view which (according to a WAFU) was portrayed as 'Too Little Too Late'.

Whatever the politicians and journos say, to the boys and girls going - best of luck and do your best. What ever the media say, we are all behind you.

[Child of the Forties]

Can someone tell this non-aviator if there begin to be airspace and facilities for any greatly increased airlift in Pakistan?

[ZK-NSJ]

do they have any next door in afganistan?

[ZH875]

Has Pakistan taken up the offer of the Indian Air Force helicopters yet, or are they still on the 'Not today thank you list'

Or do Pakistan expect that everyone in the world except India should help them.

[Data-Lynx]

Try the later part of Pakistan Eathquake (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?threadid=194669)

[CashMachine]

do they have any next door in afganistan?

Hmm, Handy that! Watch this space!:mad:

[Wyler]

Good to see help on its way and good luck to all involved. Just how far is this rubber band going to stretch before it snaps??

[DEL Mode]

Rest assured that Dr. John was on the radio the other day spinning it up that the UK was on it's way. When pressed by the media on why only three Chinooks were going he said that Large Transport Helicopters were in short supply around the world. He said that deploying other assets would leave the troops on the ground short of transport.

Sounds to me like over-stretch.

Maybe we cannot meet all of our commitments?

Which commitment wins most votes?

[MG]

Sadly, I thought John Reid spoke the truth on TV the other day! It was quite refreshing to hear but, as it came from the lips of a politico, Joe Public and the Daily Mail will think that we've got 2000 Chinooks and that they're omni-present!

[MarkD]

Lyneham Lad: There is a clear and desperate, overdue need for heavy lift helicopters to aid the earthquake victimes.

Perhaps before criticising the RAF and others heavy lift capability some thought should be given to Pakistan's own resources?

A brief look at internet references seems to show a pretty large organisation, especially in the fighter department. In fact in terms of personnel and spending I'd be interested to see data comparing PAF and RAF.

We're not talking about a failed state with C-47s and so on - PAF has the money to go shopping for F-16s. Maybe the PAF should be looking at rebalancing acquiring some more heavies rather than people on PPRuNe wondering why RAF hasn't got spare Chinooks around for incidents of this nature? Not to mention all the capability across the border...

[Lyneham Lad]

Mark D:-

OK, I'll bite. Your selective quote from my original is just that - selective. I suggest you re-read my post and then tell me just where I was critical of the RAF? My reason for composing that post was a concern about the impact on current operations and overstretch resulting from sending 3 Wokka's (and using C17's to transport them).

However, that concern does not ignore the desperate need for heavy lift helicopters and the victims sitting in very cold temperatures (in a tent if they are very lucky) do not have the luxury of waiting for their own Government to change their arms buying policy. Yes - charity begins at home but in some cases, as here and after the tsunami, we need to adjust in order to provide humanitarian help.

[MarkD]

Lyneham Lad

to be clear that wasn't a slam at you at all - and looking back at it it does read that way a bit. The quote just seemed to sum up a lot of the "why oh why" that accompanies these kinds of missions.

You are of course correct that in this particular instance RAF and others should help Pakistan get out of this crisis, however the countries selling PAF fighters should wonder how come they end up coming to the rescue (and footing the bill) when "aid to the civil power" rather than "knock the crap out of the other side" is required.

[Daysleeper]

You are of course correct that in this particular instance RAF and others should help Pakistan get out of this crisis, however the countries selling PAF fighters should wonder how come they end up coming to the rescue (and footing the bill) when "aid to the civil power" rather than "knock the crap out of the other side" is required.

Ah well it probably goes something like this.....we need lots of helicopters and as we have/will be very nice in letting you use our airspace/airfields/ports etc to kick crap out of our neighbours and we spent lots of money with you last year buying the "wonderfighter XL" and you know next year our main battle tanks will be due for replacement and they could be built in a marginal constituancy in your country you will lend us some choppers please.

Of course in the UK we should have enough support lift to cover our own taskings plus some level of contingency. But we dont. Which means we end up robbing Peter to pay Paul. Equipment and people get worn out and quit or break, machines we thought would see us nicely through till their replacement on peacetime taskings are being flogged to bits on an op tempo that is bordering on the bonkers.

Blame each other for not paying enough tax, or blame the govt for spending your tax on other things or the MOD for squandering their bit of the budget or the chiefs of staff for preferring teeth elements over force multipliers. In short blame everyone apart from the poor gits who are at the pointy end and those who are shortly going back to the pointy end but cant do any training cos their helicopters are 4000 miles away.:\


Rant mode off.

[PTT]

***Applause*** :ok:

[Navy_Adversary]

Would it have been C-17s which took the Chinooks to Pakistan or did we pull in a Antonov?
Can you get more than one in a Globemaster?
TIA

[Talking Radalt]

Would it have been C-17s which took the Chinooks to PakistanYes
or did we pull in a Antonov?Not yet
Can you get more than one in a Globemaster?No, not unless they're in very small component pieces.

[Trumpet_trousers]

Would it have been C-17s which took the Chinooks to Pakistan or did we pull in a Antonov? Can you get more than one in a Globemaster?

Yes/No/No:ok:

[Role1a]

How many can you get in a C5

[tusker27sqn]

http://www.raf.mod.uk/news/news_0510_12.html

[Talking Radalt]

How many can you get in a C5

Dunno, I thought Sinclair stopped making them years ago? :)

[Role1a]

Just for you TR

The C-5 Galaxy is a heavy-cargo transport designed to provide strategic airlift for deployment and supply of combat and support forces. The C-5 can carry unusually large and heavy cargo for intercontinental ranges at jet speeds. The plane can take off and land in relatively short distances and taxi on substandard surfaces during emergency operations. The C-5 and the smaller C-141B Starlifter are strategic airlift partners. Together they carry fully equipped, combat-ready troops to any area in the world on short notice and provide full field support necessary to maintain a fighting force.


Regards r1a

[Talking Radalt]

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh! Right, ok, gotcha. :O

[Role1a]

The question still stands

How many chinooks in a C-5?

Seem to remember one landing at an SH base in Hampshire in the early 90s.

R1a

[mystic_meg]

How many chinooks in a C-5? Seem to remember one landing at an SH base in Hampshire in the early 90s
Doubtful...the taxyways are only just suitable for the mighty C17.
To answer your question, at least 2, but the bigger question is if Uncle Sam has any spare capacity to offer, and whether it would be politically acceptable to offer it/accept it.

[Widger]

They did not use a C5 they used a C17! (RAF asset not USAF)

[mystic_meg]

They did not use a C5 they used a C17! (RAF asset not USAF)

Yeah, thanks for that Einstein - like we didn't know already :mad:

[Widger]

Mystic....you are very touchy today!

what do you expect when someone opens a thread about the Chinooks going to Afghanistan and you are all talking about C5?


:mad: back!

[Data-Lynx]

Widger, try Chaklala airbase near Islamabad and there is always Hansard (http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld199697/ldhansrd/pdvn/lds05/text/51025-03.htm#51025-03_spnew7). Some earthquake relief updates from 25 Oct 05:
Lord Drayson: .. However, we must also recognise that taking something as complex as a Chinook helicopter into the terrain in which the disaster has taken place is no small task. The way in which the Ministry of Defence has been able to respond in deploying the helicopters—they are now deployed—is something on which it is to be congratulated.
Lord Drayson: My Lords, I join my noble friend in noting that it is important for all countries to do everything they can to support the relief effort. The three UK heavy-lift helicopters that have gone over are a significant proportion of our free capability at high readiness.

I think what the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for MoD procurement means is "Well Done" and "the cupboard is bare". Meanwhile, there is always Lord Foulkes of Cumnock to focus on the true enemies:
.. I ask whether it would not be a little more balanced view to recognise that once again the British Government have been in the forefront of the humanitarian relief effort; perhaps to suggest that the French Government, who have the largest fleet of helicopters in Europe, might join us in that humanitarian effort; and that the plethora of journalists might give up their helicopters and allow them to be used for relief?

[navibrator]

R1A
The C141 is no longer an operational aircraft - its a dead airplane - grounded forever in the museums of the world.

[Role1a]

Navvibrator

I agree, but what has that to do with the C5???

Then again what has the C5 to do with Chinooks to Pakistan?

I was just curious as to how many a C5 could lift.

Regards R1a

[tusker27sqn]

http://www.bsn.org.uk/view_all.php?id=10940

[Lyneham Lad]

Good to see them now in action:-
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4382632.stm#

The accompanying article on the BBC web site states that "Army officials have said the military helicopters will be here about a month, before heading to Afghanistan."

Hope the crews (air & ground) have taken their winter woolies with them!

[Talking Radalt]

Love the BBC video commentary:
"For many earthquake survivors they've come three weeks too late".

Shhhhhhhh......don't tell Tony. :uhoh:

[adrian mole]

I Believe the answer is 1 (one) even though you would think it more...

http://www.chinook-helicopter.com/chinook/c5a1a.html

[plans123]

And we beat the French getting aircraft out there ................;) ;) ;)

[Thud_and_Blunder]

Mystic Meg thought it doubtful that a C5 would land at Odious. Well, the previous correspondent was quite right - a Galaxy did land there while bringing back a Chinook from the post-GW1 op in Turkey. Much stamping on brakes, and a very-peeved sounding C5 captain claiming on the radio that the published details about runway length couldn't be accurate. Beadwindow all round, but we didn't see another Galaxy there again (at least 'til I left in 98).

[rolandpull]

According to the following web site you can get two Chinooks in a C-5. Of course the inflight refuelling option on the C-5 does give you a bit more global reach and helps with short field operations.

http://www.pacom.mil/articles/articles2005/051017story2.shtml

I also saw the C5 come into Odiham a few years back, got a hunch it div'd into Mildenhall to collect a tug to push it back down the runway after the offload.

[Data-Lynx]

They are in business (http://news.mod.uk/news_headline_story2.asp?newsItem_id=3691). Good Phots.

[ORAC]

Shoulda rented an AN-124.
"A typical AN-124 can load either three CH-47 Chinooks, six Pumas, six UH-60 Blackhawks or five Mi-17s."

[Data-Lynx]

One snag with the AN-124's deep throat (http://www.vda.ru/eng/img/content/an124/an124-0026.jpg) is the cost up front. I wonder if estimates for 3x C17 trips to deliver the Chinooks might be subject to a military fudge factor and therefore appearing to be less than £250K per sortie starting price for the Antonov.