Cdt

[CashMachine]

Ah, the joys of open arrest and peeing in a bottle whilst someone watches over your shoulder! It can only be CDT.
Whatever happened to "innocent untill proven guilty"!
Anyone care to try to convince me this doesn't infringe my civil liberties.

[Talking Radalt]

OK then how about:
It doesn't infringe your civil liberties because it's an open condition of employment by an employer of your own free choice and you are "free" to leave at any time if CDT is a real problem for you.
Anyway, most big civvy companies do it now too (those that are worth working for at any rate)............so dry up.

Points? Questions?

[Safety_Helmut]

Is this the worst of your worries Cash Machine ? As TA says, it's a condition of your employment, I suppose that says it all really.

As the old saying goes, "if you've done nothing wrong, you've got nothing to worry about !"

Safety_Helmut

[VigilantPilot]

The only thing bad about CDT is being taken from your normal job and being recruited as one of the admin people that sit behind the desk and collect the pee vials. You go into work expecting a nice normal morning and end up bagging bottles of warm pee all morning.

[brit bus driver]

Blimey.......I thought you meant Crew Duty Time!!

:O

(Returns to sheltered life........)

[The Gorilla]

CDT is a big thing out here as well. I have been tested 3 times in 2 years, randomly I add not for cause!!

:O

[Unmissable]

So I am free to leave at any time because I object to the principle of enforced CDT?

Does this bypass any PVR waiting times?

If prospective Tory leaders can stay silent about there use (or not) of recreational drugs, then what would they do if faced by a CDT?

If said prospective Tory leader made PM, would he continue to enforce CDT?

I have been tested once, but all the time I kept thinking, did I passivly inhale anything when I was in the pub last night? Would it show up?

Just how many 'dangers' to the armed services has this unreliable process uncovered (note I ask 'danger' to the services not positive tests)

missed me!

[Onan the Clumsy]

I turned up to fly one night and was told I had been selected for the random drug test. (I choose to think it was because they thought i was the most responsible).

I said "So what do I do then? call them up and make an appointment?"

"Well if you do that" she said, fixing me with a baleful eye "it would hardly be random now would it?".


Good point. Still I passed the test (even though I had to guess at two of them).

[VigilantPilot]

I agree about the worry of passively inhaling and failing cdt. These days people seem to roll up joints and smoke sat next to you on the bus or while walking down the high street. :mad:

[Maple 01]

....and they never share..........

[Proman]

We all do responsible jobs. On that basis...and presuming you are not taking mind distorting drugs yourself...don't you welcome the fact that this may help put weaker souls off abusing themselves.

In terms of operational experience, anything the plods and medics can do to make sure the lass or lad next to me cradling an armed GPMG isn't away with the fairies is very welcome.

Lighten up - if you're worried about CDT and peeing into a bottle I commend the Ronnie Barker sketch on same, with the memorable line when asked to use a bottle on the table some eight feet away responds "What, from over here?". RIP.

[Talking Radalt]

So I am free to leave at any time because I object to the principle of enforced CDT?
Basically, yes.

Does this bypass any PVR waiting times?
Bascially, no, but that again is a condition of employment that you knew about when you took the job, or at least should've known about.

If prospective Tory leaders can stay silent about there use (or not) of recreational drugs, then what would they do if faced by a CDT?
Resign possibly, or look very stupid possibly, or deny everything possibly, (like politicians always do) but politicians and military are made in two very different moulds so to try and fit their "morales and ethics" in to our lifestyle is naive.

If said prospective Tory leader made PM, would he continue to enforce CDT?
You'd have to ask him that.

I have been tested once, but all the time I kept thinking, did I passivly inhale anything when I was in the pub last night? Would it show up?
Apparently not, but I believe if not entirely happy you can give an alternative more acccurate sample of claret insead of dry white, added to that you won't get banged up just because 5 mls of pi$$ shows positive. Funny weeds in the airing cupboard and a trade account with Rizla might just swing it though.

[Above Datums]

I agree about the worry of passively inhaling and failing cdt

Seem to recall at a lecture given by the RAFP, we were told that unless you were in a phone booth with a guy smoking HUGE joints constantly for a few hours you wouldn't test positive for passive smoking.

Only problem is with the decline of the phone booth can you test positive via bluetooth? :E

[TechyFilth]

When CDT his Cranditz, they take over the Sultan's Quaboos on the sports fields. The PTIs have taken this whole Force Development thread further by placing pro-CDT messages around the pavilion that read:

"Keep Off the Grass"!!!

:ok: If it don't fit, hit it harder....

[rej]

Above Datums

You are quite right. I was once speaking to an 'adminer' (just the once ... honest) and she recalled a story about someone who had tested positively for smoking pot. The individual had claimed that it was as a result of passive smoking at a party; the analysis guys stated that said individual would have had to have been in a phone box for something like 6 hours with 3 people smoking joints to have the same level of 'whatever' in his blood. Personally I can't bear to be in a rancid BT phone box for the length of a short phone call let alone 6 hours.

Not that I am against CDT (I pesonally think it is great - I want to know that those who work for and with me and indeed those who I work for, are free from the effects of such a habit) but as for making it a condition of employment, how does it work that an employer can constantly add compulsory conditions, such as the addition of CDT, RAFFT, OFT etc, to those who are already in the job without some for of negotiation of terms of service. I know that the obvious answers include 'if you cant take the heat' and 'if you can't take a joke' etc but perhaps someone with a good head for employment law can answer this. (Not that I have ever seen my 'contract' anyway !!)

[Talking Radalt]

So hang on....
CDT labs sniff your wee to see if you've been hanging around for six hours in a phone box?
Bearing in mind all phone boxes stink of wee anyway does this not confuse the results somewhat?

Or am I missing the point? :)

[November4]

she recalled a story about someone who had tested positively for smoking pot. The individual had claimed that it was as a result of passive smoking at a party; the analysis guys stated that said individual would have had to have been in a phone box for something like 6 hours with 3 people smoking joints

I think you adminer was remembering the "ad" that was shown on BFBS when the Army first introduced CDT. A young squaddie was shown saying his excuse was that was at a party and must have inhaled someones smoke..... cut to a phone box full of smoke and voice over of Frank Bruno saying what your adminer said.....

[Climebear]

rej

(Not that I have ever seen my 'contract' anyway !!)

That's because you don't have a contract (and your exempt from any employment law relating to contractual arrangements - including constructive dismissal), you are employed by 'Royal perogative'. So if you don't like it you can always speak to the Queen!

[rej]

November 4 - I know that this was an excused used by a certain airman as I was tasked conducting a different investigation in the same section.

Climbear - I don't recall saying I didn't like it, I was just intrigued as to how the terms of our service constantly being lengthened - and I don't really think even Queen is interested in our employment terms.

[FOMere2eternity]

rej

'They' can keep adding more or less what they want to your conditions and terms of service because it's a confidence trick, reliant on nobody seriously questioning the system. In theory we should be offered a new contract with the introduction of every mad cap idea - well certainly the ones you must be compliant with, hence the WRAFs in the mid-90s who were personally written to, IIRC to waive their right to be classed as non-combatant (...think it was something like that).

You'll also be aware of the urban legends who 'gave PMA a months notice' IAW European Law etc. Such people do exist but 'They' get rid of them as quietly as possible to maintain the confidence trick - it's really quite clever.

As for admin discharging someone who fails something like a CFT, they'd be on very dodgy ground legally if CFT fitness level wasn't a condition when that person joined; drugs is a little more black and white - 'They' just didn't have a test when 'we' joined.

I have few qualifications and don't know what I want to do when I leave the Circus, but leave I will - because I have to save my life; it's being eroded more and more every day in a very one-way relationship.

[Data-Lynx]

VigilantPilot
Just sometimes the management selects the right person to assist in the CDT process. A scruffy sailor of the sort that model for Tugg cartoons was selected to 'buddy' an army officer for CDT in the Gym at Northwood. This slim six foot plus full colonel in the Lifeguards was supporting his General and other senior CDT volunteers. He offered the rest of us an absolutely perfect look of horror and disgust as the sailor tried to pass him the rubber glove. I cannot imagine what he thought 'Jack' was trying to do, but he took great strides to the lou, with 'Jack' jogging along behind - all set to carry out his observation duties. Perhaps next time he might listen carefully to the brief. A lesson there somewhere.

[BEagle]

Some years ago when the piddle-sniffing plods pounced on the Covert Oxonian Aerodrome, it trasnpired that on the list of prospective piddlers was one Wg Cdr K Rucksack....

"Not surprising", quoth another Wg Cdr (boss of a certain premier tanker squadron), "..people have been taking the pi$$ out of that idiot for years!"

[Talking Radalt]

So, FOMere2Eternity, whenever Light Blue PLC shifts with the times and introduces or scraps a certain condition of service, it does so all to maintain an elaborate con trick?
Could you expand please, because for the life of me I cannot figure out what the **** you are on about.
So those who object are allowed to quietly leave by the back door.....
You think any other large corporation is any different?
Fact is, no one wants the wheezy boy with a note from matron on their team, hence any boat-rockers are usually permitted a swift, silent exit, then think they've beaten the system, only to realise the system has won by propelling them and their little moralistic student union crusade in to obscurity.

(PS Can you look somewhere other than my locstat for inspiration when choosing a name)

[CashMachine]

So, Talking Radalt, according to you everyone should merrily accept anything the Air Force decides and just follow orders blindly? I was only following orders (I've heard that somewhere else??)!
Quite frankly, these are the same old arguments spewed out everytime anyone questions anything - "if you don't like it get out", "if you can't take a joke", "thats life in a blue suit". Aren't we (engineers anyway!) all trained to question things and not to just accept the status quo (crap band by the way!).
The point I was trying to make about CDT is not that I condone drug taking in any form (oh, except if you are a pilot and your government decide it's a good idea to give you uppers to keep you on the ball longer!!!!! oh contraversial):sad: but that you are effectivly placed under open arrest untill you have provided a sample. Don't think you're under open arrest, try to leave the camp if your name is on that list!!!! What else do you call that?
Do the civvie companies who employ random drug testing hold their staff against their will until they provide a sample?
What if the Air Force decided that it had had enough of people stealing it's printer paper, pens, tools etc (not me!!) and said that, on a purely random basis, it would conduct house/room searches. Anyone found with anything they shouldn't have will be kicked out! Would you consider this to be just "a condition of service"? After all, I'm sure you don't condone stealing!:}

[FOMere2eternity]

Thanks CashMachine - I had started a reply but lost the will to live trying to explain what I meant to TR. It's not the individual policies, it's the way the policies are just dumped on us.

[JessTheDog]

I didn't mind CDT, just the inept way it was handled at a certain headquarters in rural Bucks that generated long queues to leave for lunch simply to prove that you weren't dodging the test as the result of indulging in the weed, crystals or powder or whatever.

[CashMachine]

FOMere2eternity, yeah it did take a while to put it all in words. Nearly lost the will myself, oh wait :{ :{

[albert the first]

I can see the argument for CDT but I really don't like the premise of it. I mean how far is it going to go, are the police going to come knocking at my house to search it just in case I have nicked some kim wipe.

I do find myself in broad agreement with CashMachine.

Also this 'if you don't like it get out' sh*te that some people say really annoys me. Would there be anyone in the military if you left every time something you didn't like the way things happened or a rule your not to keen on was introduced.

I mean I can see it
“You, SAC Bloggs stop chewing gum on parade”
“What your not allowed to chew on parade, well I think we should be allowed to chew on parade, I know I have a great job (I know not many SAC would say that, but there might be 1 or 2) but I don’t like that rule so I’m PVR’ing”

I think I’m starting to rant on a bit now so I’ll stop.

ATF

[Talking Radalt]

So, Talking Radalt, according to you everyone should merrily accept anything the Air Force decides?

Errrr, no, according to me everyone should merrily accept there's not much they can do to alter what the Air Force decides, whether they accept what the Air Force decides or not.
I mean....one hour and 5mls of pi$$.....is it really that much of an issue?
May be you need to get out (on Ops) a bit more. :hmm:

Edit: Course another way to look at it is:
Occasionally providing a sample of wee in between flying:cool:vs Occasionally flying somewhere to sniff someone else's wee.:yuk:

[CashMachine]

I mean....one hour and 5mls of pi$$.....is it really that much of an issue?
Well, actually yes it is that big of an issue!

Do you vote, Talking Radalt? Or do you just accept that there's not much you can do to alter what the government decides! Oh well, the government want me to pay £300 for an ID card, there's not much I can do about that so I'll have to stump up the cash or emigrate.

I notice you didn't answer the other points in my reply, why not? :confused:

[Talking Radalt]

I notice you didn't answer the other points in my reply, why not?
Something about losing the will to live? :E
It's an open forum, replies are optional. How's that for a civil liberty?! :p

But since you ask....
Do you vote, Talking Radalt? Or do you just accept that there's not much you can do to alter what the government decides!

Yes I do vote, as that's one way the course of Governmental decisions can be swayed to meet my own view point. But voting in a Govt and accepting the conditions of your employer are somewhat different.
Nice idea though it may seem , I cannot for the life of me recall the last time we "voted" for a new Sqn boss for example.
We protect democracy, we don't practise it.

[CashMachine]

:{ :{ :{ :{ :ok:
Not trying to get into a slagging match, just trying to make a point.

Laugh, it makes people wonder what you're up to.

Oh, and always walk around with a clipboard or bit of paper - make people think your busy!

[Talking Radalt]

I thought it went:

Laugh, people will think you're busy

and

Always carry a clipboard, people will wonder what you've been up to.

:uhoh:

[Maple 01]

I think the point is that you can't change terms and conditions in the real world without renegotiating the whole employment contract. Now bear with me for a moment, I know historically we haven't had written contracts, but we never had H&S or the European Courts judgments either and we are supposed to be coming into line with civilian ‘best practice’.

I joined in 1983 so you could argue that I signed up for the terms and conditions in force then, I re-engaged in 1991 so my T&C would have changed to those of the time.

Subsequently the Airforce have introduced

AFT
CFT
CCS (or whatever it's called these days)
CDT
Pre-deployment training
JMLC
IMLC
The other LC

It has removed

Warrants
Assorted 'perks'

I’m not saying it’s all bad, I shouldn’t have been asked to do it, it’s unfair, an organisation shouldn’t change and evolve etc. What I am saying is at each major change PMA/C should have issued new contracts or given us the option to continue service under ‘Grandfather Rights’ until the old one expired. I realise I joined an Armed Force before anyone points that out, but you don't automatically wave any notion of fair treatment by putting on a blue suit - do you?

The government didn’t feel that they could just bulldoze the change in pensions through in the same style as all the previous policy changes and accepted that only those that joined after the implementation of the new scheme would be affected unless individuals specifically chose to transfer to the new terms. This to me is a tact admission that there are fixed T&C when you join-up that can not be arbitrarily changed - so if that's the case, why were things handled differently for the other conditional changes?

Not a rant, just asking for views


Now, now, now, look here, you just stop that conchy talk right now, Private. It's, it's absurd, it's Bolshevism, and it wouldn't work, anyway

Lt George, the Somme, 1917.

[The Gorilla]

You are actually spot on Sir. You do not have a contract in any form but you do have terms and conditions of service that can be varied at any time. Even so PMA are constrained and most people must remember the pre Oct 89 TOS Fiasco? HOWEVER you have a right within three months of the said terms being varied to give notice to quit if you find them unacceptable. They cannot stop you leaving within a reasonable period.

I know this not because I am barrack room lawyer but because I paid a large sack of cash to a solicitors firm to get the advice.

In my case it was an unused string to my bow, in Feb 03 PMA announced the FRI to certain NCA wouldn't be paid from Apr 03. This represented an unacceptable change to my T&C's and would have warranted my leaving under the three-month rule.

But my man did say the main problem would be getting a favourable interpretation of “reasonable period”

[Blacksheep]

For those thinking of PVRing in protest, you can't escape. We civilians do random testing too. oh, except if you are a pilot and your government decide it's a good idea to give you uppers to keep you on the ball longer!!!!! Nothing new about that. HMG gave us amphetamines to keep us awake during Mickey Finns when we were often at work on aeroplanes for three days continuously with no off-duty time. I fell asleep leaning against a running GPU on the ORP and 3 B1A's running up to full chat just fifty feet away during the scramble didn't wake me up. The following year at Brawdy we were all on uppers and stayed hard at it for the full trip. The only problem is they didn't give us downers when we got back to Waddington and we couldn't sleep for another couple of days.

[RubiC Cube]

Cash Machine

You would still need to pay the £300 (or whatever) to emigrate! Th expensive version is your new passport. Gotcha!

[southside]

As most recreational drugs do little or no harm, isn't it about time we accepted that a small % of our band are going to take drugs? What about testing for alcohol as well?

[mystic_meg]

As most recreational drugs do little or no harm, isn't it about time we accepted that a small % of our band are going to take drugs? What about testing for alcohol as well?

Jeez, are you for real Southside? As an Officer, YOU have a responsibility to lead by example. Current (and let's hope future) HM Forces policy is ZERO TOLERANCE for drugs - simple. If you cannot agree with that, then get the hell out of dodge, asap.
I can't quite believe that on one forum you're espousing the 'go and find an officer' line, yet here you are trotting out this tolerance to druggies crap.
-btw, alcohol testing is already in place - IIRC, any aircraft incident/accident classified as Cat 3* or higher will result in blood tests for ALL parties involved (Aircrew, Groundcrew, Air Traffickers etc.)

* some brighter Ppruner is going to correct me on this, I know!

[Talking Radalt]

As most recreational drugs do little or no harm

unless you're name is
Rachel Whitear (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/1848092.stm)

Lorna Spinks (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/1320949.stm)

or

Kerry Anne Kirk (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/595065.stm)

...to name but three.

Little or no harm?
Thank you Dr Southside. :rolleyes:

[tonkatechie]

So I am free to leave at any time because I object to the principle of enforced CDT?
Of course you are - you volunteered to join, so you can ask to leave...

Does this bypass any PVR waiting times?
I imagine that if you asked to leave because CDT was 'Cramping my out of work lifestyle' (o words to that effect) your boss would be more than keen to hasten matters for you!

Personally, I'd rather pee in a bottle everytime I needed to go than go through the inconvenience of running up and down the gym in summer with the heating on full blast, with some ar**hole PTI making sure my foot passes the line. Doesn't he know there's 'no running in the hanger or on the flightline'?

What about testing for alcohol as well?
Heard that there was a plan to replace signatures on job cards with a swipe of the id card - \'can\'t do that, carrying FOD, and the cards would have to be replaced too often from wear and tear\'.
Ok, how about fingerprinting? \'Can\'t do that, dirty techies will ruin the hardware with oil/fuel, and we don\'t think they wash anyway\'. OK, we\'ll use retinal scanning then. \'No you don\'t\' says aircrew, \'You can tell if you\'ve been drinking too much with that\'

I\'m sure the grapevine has embellished this, but it\'s almost so far fetched that it could be true....

[southside]

HM Forces policy is ZERO TOLERANCE for drugs

No its not. Drugs are allowed and are readily available. But going back to the Alcohol problem. In the Armed Forces we positively encourage drinking. It is a pre-reqiusite. In fact, if you live on the camp then your "home" is built around the bar. Alcohol dominates your life. So, why do we promote excessive drinking and call it team building and high spirits but having a drag on a tab is not only frowned upon but liable to have you sacked.? Double standards maybe.?????

[mystic_meg]

No its not. Drugs are allowed and are readily available

OK Mr Pedantic, I suppose you're going to tell us it's alcohol??

Yawn... :mad:

[southside]

More people die of alcohol related incidents than from drugs. More servicemen find themselves on a charge due to alcohol than drugs. But Alcohol is an acceptable drug. Its ok to get pi$$ed but not stoned. Why not? Why is it ok to get pi$$ed and not stoned?

[mystic_meg]

Hey, you're the officer with all the sugar-coated pills, YOU tell US..

[southside]

Last year 6580 people died because of alcohol.


Last year 7 people died because of cannabis.




Hmmmmmmmm.

[mystic_meg]

Double yawn.......:mad:

[Talking Radalt]

Soooooo.......

Knock back a few sell-by-dated sherbets brewed on regularly inspected premises in sealed bottles by a licensed supplier as part of a regulated industry

or

Pop some dodgy Smarties bought off some bloke I sort-of know in the pub that were concocted in a grimy bedsit from a loose recipe rattling round in the head of some would-be "gangsta" who's given himself the nickname of "The Chemist", using unsterilised equipment previously used by said Chemist to worm his dog, bulked up with dishwashing powder, horse medicine and kids powder paint.
Mmmm, tasty. :yuk:

[southside]

So, are you saying that we should continue to dismiss people for taking drugs whilst encouraging them to drink alcohol?...


....p.s. Gangster is spelt with an "er" on the end.

[Talking Radalt]

No, but what I am saying is we should dismiss people for partaking in an illegal activity organised by the murky underworld of international hardened criminal syndicates, and encourage them to indulge in legal ones organised by blue chip global corporations.


PS "Gansta" is more wikkid......innit?

[southside]

So, if taking drugs were to be de-criminalised, then that would be ok? Good. Glad we have all cleared that up then. But back to the main thread.

Is CDT a waste of money?

How much does it cost to run the CDT organisation in the Armed Forces? Does anyone know? And does that cost justify the means. Is there any evidence to suggest that our aircraft are crashing because our maintainers are high on drugs?

Are the Armed Forces less efficient because our men (and women) are taking drugs. Should we keep CDT or bin it and spend the money on someting better?

[Talking Radalt]

So, if taking drugs were to be de-criminalised, then that would be ok?
Errr, no I don't think so. I refer you to the bit about hardened criminal syndicates.
Keep digging, SIB will be here any minute.

For info, I've had the unfortunate experience of arriving at the aftermath of a drug-taking serviceman being rumbled and it really was just like all the literature, videos and lectures pumped out by SIB....
His room stank from the end of the corridor, the floor was completely obscured by unwashed clothes.....dozens of food containers, cartons and tins lurked under the bed some with the rotting food still in them.....congealed blood in the sink which he'd apparently coughed up some weeks previously.....the windows had been painted black on the inside for some bizarre druggy reason (yup, you guessed it.....an attack of "Black! It's all BLACK! Black I tell you!" or so the Doc reckoned).....the bed wasn't fit for even an overworked pit pony to take a nap in.....exposed sharps everywhere........unopened mail from every debt collecting agency in the English-speaking world, and the really, really good bit......
Human turds over the floor nicely hidden under all the laundry. Yeah, you can guess how we found 'em :yuk: :yuk: :yuk:
Don't ask me how he was allowed to arrive in this sorry state un-noticed for that is another thread entirely. Fact is, his entire life was fcuked up.

Should we keep CDT or bin it and spend the money on someting better?
Dunno, Re-read the above and you tell me.

[mystic_meg]

....p.s. Gangster is spelt with an "er" on the end Correct. 10/10
It is a pre-reqiusite. Oh dear.... 0/10
Why is it ok to get pi$$ed and not stoned?

Probably because the former doesn't affect your spelling as much as the latter, chimp. :mad:

[FOMere2eternity]

CDT - Yeah, keep it. It does a job and is a good way of getting rid of wasters.

CCS - Suppose we have to have something to keep the hand in. Can't argue with once a year. (not counting Guard and pre-OOA stuff that for some reason isn't covered by the annual tick).

IRT/IDT - Is becoming increasingly popular, principally due to a new entry in 'Annoying Stuff that p1sses people off each year' list - see pre-OOA FT.

AFT - Pointless. Wastes fit people's time and just niggles those who are not.

Pre-OOA FT - An annoying waste of time, especially the one 7 days before leaving loved ones behind to get shot at. I've even heard some people take leave before their 4-month sentence...

Annual Standing in a Dark Room on One Leg Test - not yet reality, but has as much point as some other 'days out'.

I'm not suggesting we should vote on extra stuff that those who know better keep introducing, but really...

[CashMachine]

Ah, Talking Radalt.

Did CDT pick him up????

Or was it, more likely, someone in his block finally took some notice and reported him!

There also seems to be some confusion on this forum about types of drugs! Something like heroin or cocaine will never be legalised (thankfully!!) but there has been a lot of talk about de-criminalising cannabis as it's side effects are (apparently) negligable. If (big IF) they did make cannabis legal I think the forces would be on quite dodgy ground still banning it.

[Above Datums]

I firmly belive CDT is a good thing. If dope was legalised and the service caved in and allowed members to smoke it then think what would happen.

Guard would become pointless as if the guys were high whilst on the gate (lets face it if dope is legal then theres no reason not to have a joint before going on the gate) then depending on how they react they could "get the munchies" and nip to the NAFFI, let someone with no ID in just because they are having a good trip or worse, shoot the place up because they are convinced they are being attacked.

Guys on a "smoke" break could come back to work and decide that the colours of the electric wires are wrong and start pulling them out by the handfull.

etc etc etc.

The list of what could happen is endless. In short CDT, although it is a ball ache, is in place for a good reason and I can't see why people are against it.

AD

All spelling errors are because I'm $hit at spelling! :\

[CashMachine]

Above Datums,

I hate to say it, but your talking rubbish!
There are strict rules governing drinking prior to things like live armed guard as well as flying. What makes you think that IF cannabis were to be made legal the rules would be any different?

I don't agree with drug taking at all, but one of the things about CDT is that it assumes your guilt and asks you to prove your innocence (or incriminate yourself if you're stupid enough to take drugs), which is totally at odds with the basic premise of U.K (and indeed most other countries) law, which assumes your innocence until you are PROVEN guilty in a court of law! You are also, essentially, under open arrest until you have given a sample!

[Fg Off Max Stout]

southside,

I know by now that you always play devil's advocate just to provoke a reaction, and I know that by replying I'm feeding a troll, but some of your barking statements need to be challenged.

1. 'As most recreational drugs do little or no harm, isn't it about time we accepted that a small % of our band are going to take drugs? What about testing for alcohol as well?'
WTF? Most recreational drugs do significant harm. That's why their illegal. I don't want someone torquing my Jesus nuts when their smacked out on crystal meth. Zero tolerance please. And, yes, people do get tested for alcohol as well.

2. RAF and alcohol. Bull**** factor - high.
I may live in the Mess, but my life is certainly not dominated by alcohol and neither am I forced or unduly encouraged to drink. I have a teetotaller colleague whose decision not to drink is respected and supported. Are you suggesting that if I turned up to fly batfaced, that would be OK because alcohol is a legal drug? Whatever.

3. Fags comparison. Irrelevant.
Tabbing fags may be a dirty habit but it doesn't impair your ability.

4. 'Why is it ok to get pi$$ed and not stoned?' Are you drunk, southside?
When you get p1ssed you know that you'll be back on the ball after a predictable amount of time - alcohol has a known ABV and is quality controlled. When you smoke da erb your reactions are impaired for days and you don't know whether you've just spent your kitty on Moroccan Black, Earl Grey or rabbit turd. Do you think your getting a safe and reliable dose of a harmless 'pharmaceutical'? In your figures do you include as drug deaths the people who are killed on the roads by smacked out drivers, or who kill themselves because they've mushed their brains etc. No. I didn't think so.

5. 'So, are you saying that we should continue to dismiss people for taking drugs whilst encouraging them to drink alcohol?...'
In a word, yes. And, as I said, the RAF does not encourage people to drink alcohol - maybe you've seen the anti alcohol posters around station. People can decide for themselves whether or not to booze. The few who cannot manage this small responsibility do get kicked out.

6. CDT is a waste of money.
No, I think it probably goes some way towards preventing more expensive drug related hull losses.


I truly think this is one area where civil liberties and all that jazz need to take a back seat in favour of a robust and firm zero tolerance 'no issue if you have nothing to hide' policy. I don't want to put my or my friends' lives in the hands of drug abusers. As Dubya once said 'Your either with us or against us'. If you are anti-CDT you are implicitly accepting increased drug use in the armed forces. Don't think, either, that many decent civvy companies doing responsible jobs would tolerate drug use. If you want the civvy viewpoint there was a thread running recently, (I think on Questions) where an aspiring ATPL student asked if he could continue to toke da erb. He was told in no uncertain terms where he stood.

If you want the right to follow a druggy lifestyle then you have no place in a professional military aviation organisation. End of story.

[Talking Radalt]

Ah, Talking Radalt.

Did CDT pick him up????


Actually you know something? You're right , it didn't.




























It was pre-CDT days. :rolleyes:

[jobsworth]

Normally I like to just read the forum but feel I must post a response to this thread.

I left the Air Force a few years back and at the time had no problem with the concept of CDT. I now work for a large company that also uses random screening; they also have a strict no alcohol policy (its less than the drink drive limit). I still have no problem with this as it sets a standard required by the individuals it employs and one from which I have nothing to hide.

I do however feel that the mentality displayed by some of the people still serving can be described as slightly out of touch. To make it clear, the use of soft drugs does not necessarily mean the individual is going to go on to harder drugs in the same sense that someone who likes a sociable drink will not become an alcoholic.

The rate at which the public attitude views the use of recreational drugs is rapidly changing and it is from these people that future recruits will come from, their attitude will be different and it is something the armed forces on a whole are going to have to accept. They will have to positively encourage and teach a sensible attitude of restraint to either substance. At present the scare stories promoted by the powers that be are in effect wrong. They are outdated concepts not to dissimilar to the ideas that were promoted by the American government a few administrations back.

I have worked with both the military and the police force and having grown up in an area which is considered rife with both drugs and crime have seen that the promotion of ill informed advice and a oppressive attitude does nothing to tackle the problem, more so to drive it underground and promote a climate of distrust.

[Cat5 in the Hat]

Situation:

One of your charges has spent a weekend abroad, looking round Anne Franck's house, and taking in the local atmosphere in a coffee chop or three.

Then fails a CDT on his return Monday morning.

What is the standpoint there?

[southside]

Yep, I concur with all the thoughts ref CDT in so much as its a good thing. It doesn't act as a deterrent but it does sort the weed (no pun meant) from the chaff. I do also think that we have to consider that many of our peope who join today have dabbled. This includes Officers as well as the lads and lasses but we should continue to enforce the fact that Drugs are bad.

I do have a problem with alcohol though. I find it strange that we continue to promote and encourage drinking.

Someone mentioned the fact that they live in the mess and yet their lives are not dominated by alcohol. But the fact remains that smack bang in the middle of your sitting room is a bar. And although the bar has normal (pub) opening hours, should the bar be closed when you arrive there is the safety net of a night bar ????

On ships at sea there are generally 7 or 8 messes and each one is centred around a bar. From the moment the guys wake up until the moment they go to sleep they live in a bar.

Is this the way we should expect our people to live?

[mystic_meg]

sort the weed (no pun meant) from the chaff

Actually, it's wheat, chimp.

I do have a problem with alcohol though

This should help:

http://www.alcoholics-anonymous.org.uk/

[Talking Radalt]

On ships at sea there are generally 7 or 8 messes and each one is centred around a bar. From the moment the guys wake up until the moment they go to sleep they live in a bar.
Partially correct 5/10
(First point I'd make is there are as many messes on ships at sea as there are when they're alongside. Messes tend to be an integral part of the infrastructure :E)
Jnr Rates do not have a bar in their accommodation areas, Snr Rates do but it isn't open all the time, and the O's have the ward room. The point I'd stress is the bar is only one area of a mess deck. It's a bit like saying every landlord in the country lives in a pub therefore must be a grade A wino.
A "night bar" ? You mean the Scruffs bar? No it is not a safety net. It is a private room of the mess for those mess members who find themselves unable to use the mess public bar due to either a formal function taking place there, or by returning from work after closing time. It is, however, as closely run as the main bar, is fully accounted for and just because it can stay open past usual closing times (it is a private room after all) doesn't mean it has to.

I do have a problem with alcohol though
May be ease off until you're old enough then. Try starting with something like supermarket own-brand lager shandy.

Must go, it's almost noon, and time for my pre-lunch G&T.

[southside]

Jnr Rates do not have a bar in their accommodation areas Yes they do. Every one of them. Including the girls mess.

I didn't mean the scruffs bar. The scruffs bar is open during normal hours. After it closes the night bar opens . It is not administered, no one opens or closes it. It is run on an open and honest policy. If you take beer from the night bar you sign the chit.

[Talking Radalt]

Ah right..........are we talking genuine "Bar" or "Beer fridge"?

I mean..........The Bar, The Scruffs Bar and now the "Night Bar". We'll be rivalling Caesars Palace at this rate.
I suspect dear southside, that you are getting confused between the Scruffs bar and your mysterious "night bar" which are, in fact, one and the same.

(.....and now you'll come back with the predictable druggy argument that if it's ok to leave us alone with a fridge full of beer on the understanding we won't abuse it, why can't we be left alone with some "Smarties" on the understanding we won't abuse them? :rolleyes: )

Anyway, must go, it's after midday and time for a boozy lunch with a large bottle of Red.

[southside]

Oh dear. here goes then. At my station we have 3 bars. The main bar is the posh bar and is only open on special occasions, mess dinners etc.

The normal bar is the scruffs bar. OPen normal times. I.E. lunch times and in the evenings, closing at about 11pm I think. Next door is a small room with a big fridge in it, a bar and a darts board. Thats called the night bar. The fridge has a padlock on it and if you require it you go and sign out the key from the Hall porter. You are then responsible for the fridge and its contents.....

Just had another thought. Even the crewroom in the squadron has a bar in it... blimey, I'm surrounded by them.

[Talking Radalt]

Man you SO need to get posted. A dart board? Whoo. Bet there's a set of Dominoes and a 999-piece jigsaw puzzle too?

We've got a room the size of Wembley stadium, a TV the size of Uranus, wall to wall Sky, surround sound that'd split your kidneys, big comfy Lazeeboy reclining chairs and those sloppy sofa sized bean bag thingies, full table service from the stewards and a chrome pole in the corner, up and down which slides Rachel Stevens in just her kecks.

But (partially) seriously....
You have two bars, (one of which is only used for special and therefore perhaps infrequent occasions) and one beer fridge but for the purposes of your argument they're all "bars" until that fact is queried when you clarify your meaning with an aloof undertone of "I thought you knew that's what I meant?"

Mate, you belong in politics.....or journalism. They also tend to condone use of illicit drugs. You'll fit right in.:rolleyes:

[southside]

No, not 2 bars.....3 Bars. the posh bar, scruffs bar and the night bar. The scruffs bar has all those things you mentioned but the night bar (which is essentially a fridge with a plank of wood over the top of it....has a dart board in the room. Thanks for the tip about politics....not sure a Secondary School edumacation would be allowed. Journalism...Hmm, done that. Worked for a local rag prior to joining up. Got fed up with "Cat stuck up tree" and "Rovers lose again - manager sacked" stories....



Yeah, there is a set of Dom's in there as well.....and a crib board..Not generally used for Crib though (if you get my drift)

[Talking Radalt]

So in your book a fridge with a plank over it is a bar? Sheeezzz.:rolleyes:
I can see where your problem lies young man....you think the bar, a bar, any bar is there soley to store and serve alcohol, and serves absoutely no other purpose, thus you assume everyone else only goes there to get leathered too.

Can't deny I admire your resourcefulness and optimism in the face of an apparently limited infrastructure though.

"Plank + fridge = bar"

Who supplies the plank southside? :E

[southside]

Well, I say plank but its actually part of a disused kitchen work top. Its been refurbished and is quite nice. Underneath is the fridge. Its known as the night bar and can only be opened after the scruffs bar is shut. Very handy for having a beer on Completion of night flying.

[SSSETOWTF]

Every sqn I've ever been on has had a tea/coffee bar. Should we be concerned about this tacit approval for caffeine and toast abuse too?

Single Seat, Single Engine, The Only Way To Fly

[Fg Off Max Stout]

southside old boy, answer me this:

So, the mess has one or 100 bars - do you feel pressured into getting screechers every night because of that?

Do you not have the self control to moderate your intake?

Is the fact that the Mess has a bar part of a sinister MoD conspiracy to encourage alcoholism whilst paradoxically condemning crack smoking?

Can't you, as Mess members, vote to have the bar shut down and removed, at your next AGM?

How do the senior echelons ensure that their contradictory drug/alcohol policy is enforced on livers out? Do they build bars in the living rooms of MQs?

Does the fact that I have a 3/4 full bottle of Dalwhinnie and an unopened bottle of Veuve Cliquot Yellow Label in my room in the mess make me a raging alcoholic?

How is this relevant to illegal drugs?

Would you be happy to fly in a service aircraft if it had been serviced by a stoner, the pilot did a line to get in the 'zone' before flight, the firemen were all cooking up down at their section, the atco had a crack pipe on the go, the med centre ambulance driver had just emptied the wagon of morphine and viagra, the Naval exchange dude had done so many poppers he could sit around a tree stump, OC Ops was mashed on crystal meth, the loady was tripping, the Staish was making a mushroom omlette and the SDO had consumed a small sherry. (After all 'the SDO is to drink in moderation' (SDO TORs)).

[Above Datums]

With reference to the CDT guilty until proved otherwise, what are your thoughts?

I personally don't care that this assumption is made as it ensures that the boys and girls working on/in my cab are in a fit state to do so. Before certain people start flying the civil liberties flag consider this, the fear of testing positive on a CDT test keeps (most) people clean thereby stopping us getting into serious debt, living in squallor like the gent in Talking Radalt's post, endangering our health (yes alcohol is a poison but you can't get Hep B or HIV or a pint of Smiths) and being killed as a result of an OD. I have nothing to hide/prove and I am more than happy to endure the ball ache of CDT when it comes around as it helps to discourage drug use in the forces.

You will note the use of the first person plural, as it is not only other ranks that are picked up for drug abuse but also officers.

Spelling mistakes are because I can't spell damn it! :*

[Talking Radalt]

You will note the use of the first person plural, as it is not only other ranks that are picked up for drug abuse but also officers.

For info, I know of at least one Air Cdr who's been randomly CDT'd and one Staish who volunteered to set the example.

southside me old chum,
Just to pick a few more holes in your purple-hazed universe.....
Posh bar.....only open for special occasions. (Headmaster's birthday, end of term etc?) Presumably those who would normally visit the Scruffs bar will invariably be at said function, thus rendering Scruffs devoid of clientele? Okey dokey.
If there is no function in the Posh bar it doesn't open and everyone reverts to the Scruffs bar. Roger so far.
If Bloggs returns from night flying fancying a sherbet and, shock horror, the Sruffs bar is closed (due to over-use by all the resident winos no doubt?) and there is no special function in the Posh bar, he can then claim Night Bar rules and steal the keys to your impressive fridge/plank combo including free use of the dart board (darts extra).
But he can only do that if both the posh bar and scruffs bar are closed. OK, fair readable.
So correct me if I'm wrong Bloggs only ever has access to one source of grog, which is akin to only having one bar in the Mess, with or without plank.
Where's the snag? :bored:

[Maple 01]

you can't get Hep B or HIV or a pint of Smiths

Never been drinking in 'the Globe' then?

[Thud_and_Blunder]

Slightly off-topic: having noticed certain troll-like similarities between southside's contributions and those of a character who used to call himself vecvechookattack, I did a quick search. The vecvec person made his last witty comment on 14 July - "southside" then joined on 15 July and made his first post on the 18th of that month. Talking Radalt, you were one of the correspondents in the thread vecvecetc posted - you might like to look back and see if you can spot any similarities in style and content. Like the lack of a "shift" key when he/she/it/they were thinking up user names, for example - prob not significant.

Sadly, the "search" facility draws a blank on vecvecetc, indicating his account is now defunct. Same goes for the character who used to post as Mikehegland. There seem to be similarities between that now-departed contributor and the above-mentioned 2 - Mikehegland stopped posting in Jan 2005 after only 2 months on the forums. Not such a strong set of similarities here though - for a start, this one used a capital "M". Still, he liked to stir and malign - which is what made me think it might have been another nom de guerre.

So dress me up as Billy Goat Gruff and pop me next to the bridge, but I sniffs a troll here!

[Talking Radalt]

Oh that crossed my mind weeks ago T&B, it's just too damned cold for real fishing this time of year! ;)

[The Gorilla]

I think Southside’s pedigree goes back even further - to Admin Guru.

I don't know why a lot of you guys are getting so worked up about CDT. As others have eluded it is just as big out here except that most companies have an alcohol policy as well. In my industry you can have a pint or two the night before, drive to work, be stopped by the feds outside the gates, be breathalysed and pass. Then immediately drive past the gates to be met by the companies med screen people be breathalysed, fail due to the lower limits and be dismissed immediately.

But it works well because no one turns up under the influence of anything. Have known only one person fail and it wasn’t the result of a random test. He had been to Amsterdam and the wacky baccy emporiums with his girlfriend where he partook of the delights. Came home and dumped his girly who promptly grassed him up to his employers.

If you have nothing to hide then you have nothing to fear.

:ok:

[An Teallach]

If you have nothing to hide then you have nothing to fear.

The motto of creeping repression in states from time immemorial. :rolleyes:

[CashMachine]

First, Maple 01
Never been drinking in 'the Globe' then? .
The globe is a very nice bar now (well, as far as the Falklands goes) not the, sawdust on the floor, beer crates for the bar, no lights in the toilets complete S**thole it used to be (thats going back, 80's)!

There seems to be some people who think that pre-CDT, the Air Force was full of people smacked out of their heads, snorting lines in the line, shooting up on the range and doing ecstacy in the WRAF block (these are good!!) and that CDT was the answer to all our prayers and freed us from the abyss. It wasn't. In them days the police did something called INVESTIGATE people suspected of taking drugs. Not that i'm saying the sterling boys in white hats don't do the same now (if you can find one!!).

Now, judging from the name of this site I take it most, if not all, of us are grown-ups (no southside that doesn't just mean we can vote!). Part of being a grown-up is that you are responsible for those who work for you (yes, aircrew that applies to you too) and to ensure they don't get themselves into trouble and/or bring the service into disrepute (??). With or without CDT drug takers should be spotted and investigated.

:suspect:

[Talking Radalt]

The globe is a very nice bar now....not the beer crates for the bar S**thole it used to be (thats going back, 80's)!

What they got now? A plank suspended between two fridges? :)








And a dart board. :}

[The Gorilla]

An Tea

Yes but in times gone not too distant past people did have a lot to hide. In my experience though not from drugs but from booze!! I have flown with people in the past whom we have had to tie into their seats to make the take off legal.

CDT has tidied up the workplace nicely because it has brought booze into focus as well.

[mystic_meg]

..follow me through on this:

The number of bars in your mess is directly proportional to the number of alcoholics, right?

Q: How many toilets have you got in that same Mess?

A: More than the number of bars.

THEREFORE: Southside is a serial self-abuser!

(Try getting advice here:
[email protected]

[JessTheDog]

Interesting discussion. As long as drugs are prohibited by law there will be CDT or something similar. The criminalisation of certain drugs is most certainly a modern invention, and I don't know what our ancestors would have made of it. My old man had some happy memories of smoking dope in uniform in Cyprus during the early 60s - apparently the practice was widespread.

I have to confess, since leaveing Her Majesty's employment, I have never felt the irrepressible urge to "toke" on a "joint" or to "snort" some "charlie" or anything else.

At least with a pint of beer (or wine) you know what you are getting is regulated by law. There is no regulation on how much though (well, there supposedly is)!

[southside]

We have two toilets in the mess. Why are you being so nasty to me? Can you explain your point of view without having to abuse me please?

[Maple 01]

you're going to regret that last post...........

[southside]

Am I. Why?

Gotta go though. The Queen is coming this morning.

[oldfella]

Cdt is just a factor of the job. The worst part is the time wasted waiting to be tested while all the time being presumed guilty. Best bet is just to say that you cannot pee at the moment, drop hints that you are really grumpy when you wake up then try to have a kip.