Lightning over the Baltic

[WEATHERKEW]

Some years ago I came across a retired Lightning pilot, who told me an incredible story involving a high-speed dash (following in-flight refuelling) towards the Baltic coast of the USSR; the purpose of the flight being to trigger their early-warning system, for NATO listening posts to analyse. The mission went pear-shaped when the Lightning suffered a double flame-out, and the story-teller (?) had to eject - ending up in the Baltic for many hours until rescued by NATO helicopter.

The pilot had definately flown Lightnings, and at some stage had held quite a high rank, but I have been unable to verify the story.

Have I been taken for a ride; is my informant a fantasist, or is the whole event hush hush?

[GeeRam]

Well if it's true, it's not recorded as such.

In the log of Lightning losses there are none in the Baltic.

But quite a few in the North Sea:rolleyes:....which could cover all manner of activities...:D

An idea of time could narrow down the possibles of a particular lost airframe...60's or 70's?

Does sound a 'flight of fancy' though......

[GeeRam]

I've looked up the lists and there's no single Lightning loss that doesn't have a specific location, so assuming were not dealing with 'ammended' records, the story is just a yarn.

[Lightning12]

Being an ex-Lightning pilot myself having served at 226 OCU and on a squadron, I have never heard of this one - seems unlikely and clumsy as in reheat you can almost, if not actually see the gauges moving. Had a scramble onetime and was requested to 'Buster' to intercept but never reached the target, a Bear, as I ran short on fuel.

[WEATHERKEW]

I know the pilot's name and rank, and many other bizarre details of the alleged event. He was extremely bitter about his subsequent treatment by the RAF/MoD. It supposedly took place in the 70s, I believe, and was clandestine, so the records may show alternative reasons for the loss.

If true, it would make a top-selling adventure story; on the other hand, it may all be eyewash.

[GeeRam]

I know the pilot's name and rank, and many other bizarre details of the alleged event

a/c serial would be handy:ok:

[jimgriff]

Lightning losses as follows:
1970- 7
1971- 10
1972- 5
1973- 4
1974- 4
1975- 2
1976- 3
1977- 1
1978- 0
1979- 3
1980- 0
1981- 1
1982- 1
1983- 2
1984- 2
1985- 2
1986- 1
1987- 2
1988- 1
None of these were recorded as Baltic area. But then again who knows how far "north sea" covers!!:8

[GeeRam]

Right here goes, going into really saddo mode here:uhoh:

So if this was the in the 1970’s, just looking at the loss records for the 70’s.

1970

Of the 7 a/c lost, 3 were 74 Sqn machines which crashed in Singapore, and a 226 OCU T.4 crashed in Norfolk.

2 others crashed into the North Sea and were classified as fatal.

Which leaves F.3 XP742 of 111 abandoned over the North Sea near Gt.Yarmouth on 7/5/70.

1971

Of the 10 Lightnings lost this year, 3 were in Cyprus and one a F.2A in Germany. One other was declared Cat 5 on landing after a mid-air with a FAF Mirage, and another crashed at Watty as a result of a premature rotation.

That leaves 4, one of which was of undetermined cause but registered as a fatal, F.3 XP736 of 29 which crashed into the sea off Gt. Yarmouth.

Another F.3 crashed into the sea off the Gt.Yamouth on 25/1/71, F.6 XS898 crashed into the River Tay on 28/4/71, and F.6 XS902 crashed into the sea off Grimsby on 26/5/71.

1972

Of the 5 that crashed in ’72, F.3’s XP747 and XP747 crashed after a mid-air near Harwich, and a F.3 crashed at Watty on take-off.
That just leaves 2 ‘Tubs’, a 226 OCU T.4 crashed 35 miles off the Norfolk coast on 14/12/72, and a T.5 that crashed off Spun Head on 6/9/71.

1973

Of the 3 this year, 1 was in Cyprus and 1 was a Cat 5’d at Wattisham after the u/c collapsed on landing.
The other was another 226 OCU T.4 abandoned off Gt.Yarmouth.

1974

Of the 3 in ’74, 2 crashed over land and F.6 XR768 crashed into the North Sea 3 miles off Mablethorpe after a reheat fire on 29/10/74.

1975

The only loss this year was in Cyprus

1976
The only loss this year was F.6 XR762 abandoned off Spurn Head after a u/c failure.

1977

Only loss was a RAFG T.4 which crashed near Gutersloh.

With no losses in 1978, that just leaves the 3 in 1979. One of these was again in Cyprus and another abandoned near RAF Valley after another u/c failure. That just leaves F.6 XS931 abandoned off Flamborough head after a control restriction caused by FOD.

So, take yer pick.......:hmm:

[Brain Potter]

Was there a Soviet SAM site "off Gt Yarmouth" in 70/71?

The plot thickens....:=

[Beeayeate]

51 Sqn would probably know. Find an ex-Secret Squirrel and ask them what their Comet and Canberras were doing around that time. Mind you, they'll never tell you. :hmm:


.

[Pontius Navigator]

The RAF was not the only operator of Lightnings . . .

Certainly in the '50s the RAF flew USAF aircraft, B45s I think, as Trueman would not authorise USAF crews and they certainly did boder crossings. The 2TAF Meteors used to have to delouse them when they came out. I heard the same of the Victor Training Flight - 1950s version.

Then remember there were Lightnings based in Germany and there may have been attempts to intercept Foxbats or delouse the SR71.

As far as 'North Sea' goes, we used to file 'open' post-reps at Nato Confidential that were works of pure fiction compared with the UK Secret postreps.

[Heimdall]

This whole story sounds very far fetched and is probably just wishful thinking by the individual concerned. It is known that RAF Canberra's were used to 'trigger' Soviet air defences whilst working in conjunction with 51 Sqn and USAF SIGINT aircraft. These flights were referred to as Radio Proving Flights and continued for many years around the borders of Russia and other Warsaw Pact countries. However, there is no record anywhere of a Lightning being used for this purpose and, given the limited endurance of even the F2A and F6 versions of the aircraft, I doubt anyone in their right mind would seriously consider the Lightning a suitable aircraft for this activity. Furthermore, as the SR-71 regularly flew the 'Baltic Express' route at considerably greater height and speed than the Lightning could achieve, I don't really see what additional intelligence could be gathered by using a Lightning for precisely the same purpose.

The use by the RAF of three RB-45C Tornado's to overfly Eastern Europe and Western Russia in 1952 and 1954 in Op Ju-Jitsu has been in the public domain for some time, unlike other reconnaissance activities by RAF Canberra aircraft in the early 1950's.

Further details on Radip Proving Flights, Op Ju Jitsu, Op Robin and other reconnaissance activities from the early part of the Cold War can be found in the 'Operations' section of www.spyflight.co.uk

Heimdall

[GeeRam]

The RAF was not the only operator of Lightnings . . .
A RSAF or KAF Lightning being lost over the Baltic really would be an interesting story....;)

Then remember there were Lightnings based in Germany

Details of Lightning losses posted above include those of RAFG based 19 & 92 Sqn's.

[Tarnished]

Come on Weatherkew, name names then if you have them as claimed. I'm sure one of us knows him and can put the record straight.

Tarnished

[Firestreak]

W'kew, afraid you've been had old son. I would check the credentials of your 'source', it's not unknown for anyone to claim to be aircrew and come up with the most outlandish stories.

eg:- Many years ago a friend of mine was in hospital. In the same ward was a young man who kept telling the nurses he was a fighter pilot, own plane etc etc---in reality he was a liney on JPs.

That said, from Gutersloh we did have some interesting incidents on the IGB, some good fun as well.

[LFittNI]

A bit more gen on the three Lightning F.6's lost by 74 Sqdn. in Singapore (Tengah), as I was on 74 at the time.......

One ploughed into the Johore Straits whilst doing a PI, pilot killed. The only bits ever recovered were the over-wing tanks floating in the sea. We "fairies" (Avionics) always reckoned it could have been an autopilot fault.

One was ejected from. This was east of Singapore after the u/c failed to come down, pilot OK--recovered by 103 Sqdn. helicopter from Changi.

The last one--and the worst sight I've ever seen in my life--was an F6 which got the fuel management wrong and took off from Tengah with the c of g too far back. It looked at first as though he was trying a rotation take off, so we all stopped to look. He swung over backwards at a sickening rate, was forced into a loop at about 300 ft., and ploughed straight into the kampong on the other side of the road. Ejection was initiated (we all saw the canopy come off), but the seat went straight into a tree......

As I'm sure everyone knows, Lightnings were absolute pigs to maintain, and the wonder was that they didn't just explode when the power went on, what with all the fuel leaking everywhere and the AVPIN.

The units also seemed to be flight, squadron and engineer- commanded by officers who spent most of their time managing their careers upwards, rather than displaying real leadership for the "blokes". Perhaps this was a sign of the times (my period on Lightnings was 68-71), but they seemed to be totally concentrated on doing their tour, getting in the AOC's good books then flitting away onwards and upwards.

We groundcrew always thought that the poor maintenance performance of the aircraft had a positive correlation to the leadership and management capabilities of the senior squadron officers. This famously (or rather, not famously, as it was covered up) showed itself in the Great 111 Squadron Groundcrew Mutiny of 1968.......but that's another story!

[Pontius Navigator]

LFittNI,
re your 3rd incident, I went to school with PJT. A mean rugby player too. Must admit I had not heard of the incident in that detail.

As far as your comments re the OCs etc, I am not sure I could substantiate your remarks, but I remember about that period an aircraft crash often meant a career crash for sqn cdr, possibly OC Ops and the stn cdr.

This led to a living-on-a-knife-edge syndrome which I am sure was not good for the individual's morale or his effective leadership. Success could be measured only by tasks met and taceval scores.

[mystic_meg]

Success could be measured only by tasks met and taceval scores

Oh yes, such happy days in the early eighties at Binbrook - almost 30 (yes, 30) station exercises of one form or another in one year arranged by that lovely man Mr. C**ley. Had to laugh when the Radio 1 roadshow came to Cleethorpes (or Skeggy?) and some of the linies dedicated a song to him....'fool on the hill'
:E

[lightningmate]

LFittNI

I have no recollection whatsoever of your assertion of a 'Mutiny' within Treble One during 1968. I think I would have noticed!

I do not dispute your view on the maintenance problems of the Lightning. Procuring an experimental aircraft as a front-line Interceptor without a major redesign of the basic systems is never a good idea.

I could expand to comment upon range/endurance and inadequate weapons carriage capability. Those issues should be history - but there is always STOVL JSF to contemplate!

lm

[pedroalpha]

Interesting thread. I've just checked my log book & during my SAR days, my crew & I hauled a Lightning pilot out of the North Sea on 26 May 1971 at night. We did not really come to a classic hover but scooped him up on the run. Seems this one has missed the stats?

[henry crun]

pedroalpha: The one you mention has an entry in Broken Wings.

26.5.71, F6, XS902, 5Sqd, 9 mls SE of Spurn Head, abandoned after engine fire.

[DEL Mode]

What about the one on the 8th September 1970?

Must be good for a thread or two.

[GeeRam]

Interesting thread. I've just checked my log book & during my SAR days, my crew & I hauled a Lightning pilot out of the North Sea on 26 May 1971 at night. We did not really come to a classic hover but scooped him up on the run. Seems this one has missed the stats?

Oooops.....quite right:uhoh:

That would have been the RCAF exchange pilot that parted company with XS902 after a re-heat fire about 9m east of Spurn Head.

As I'm sure everyone knows, Lightnings were absolute pigs to maintain, and the wonder was that they didn't just explode when the power went on, what with all the fuel leaking everywhere and the AVPIN.

Well one of your old 74 Sqn charges is currently the only airworthy Lightning F.6 in the world:ok:
XR773/F, then the 'personal' mount of a current well known civilian Hunter display pilot;) is with Mike Beachyhead's ThunderCity operation down at Cape Town International:ok:

The last one--and the worst sight I've ever seen in my life--was an F6 which got the fuel management wrong and took off from Tengah with the c of g too far back. It looked at first as though he was trying a rotation take off, so we all stopped to look. He swung over backwards at a sickening rate, was forced into a loop at about 300 ft., and ploughed straight into the kampong on the other side of the road. Ejection was initiated (we all saw the canopy come off), but the seat went straight into a tree......

27th July 1970, XS930. There's a detailed paragraph written by one of 74's other pilots, of this incident, in Martin Bowmans book on the Lightning.

[pedroalpha]

Thanks Henry - it was an interesting night and the pilot became quite well known to us later. Nice chap.

The main issue was the quite exceptional co-operation with a Lossiemouth Shack that dropped enough flares for us to get down to winching height. Violet picture let-downs were fine but in total darkness we needed help.

[jimgriff]

GEERAM
Seems your rescue is on some databases, have checked the one I have access to and found the following for that date:

26-5-1971
RAF Lightning XS902/J of 5 Sqn. Crashed into the North Sea nine miles south east of Spurn Head,
15 miles north east of Grimsby, Yorkshire after the pilot ejected due to a reheat fire.
Pilot A. Macay.

If you want to add details of the helo you were in and supporting a/c and times etc I will happily add them to the record.

[newt]

Good to see so many WIWOLs still active on Pprune. Maybe we could have a section just for Lightning pilots. Afterall we were the best!!

[Yellow Sun]

-26-5-1971
RAF Lightning XS902/J of 5 Sqn. Crashed into the North Sea nine miles south east of Spurn Head,
15 miles north east of Grimsby, Yorkshire after the pilot ejected due to a reheat fire.
Pilot A. Macay.


and Ally's No.2 that night was Merv Fowler.

YS

[GeeRam]

GEERAM
Seems your rescue is on some databases, have checked the one I have access to and found the following for that date:


I think you've got your posters mixed up.:uhoh:

Also, IIRC, the pilots surname was MacKay.

And the above post gives a clue to what his 'A' initial stood for as well.;)

[LFittNI]

LightningMate:-

Off the main topic I know, but:-

This incident (incidents, as there were two) took place at Valley during an MPC and then on exercise at Luqa, both in 1968.

The Great Groundcrew Mutiny, which title entered our annals with tongue in cheek, centred around a certain officer, who was easily the worst example of his type--not just in "human" terms, but managerially and professionally. This guy was actively hated, and it was because of him that we all refused to join in a squadron booze-up in Malta.

Wing Cmdr. Les Swart, the CO, came into the airman's club and pleaded with us to come along to the party. It was hard to refuse Swart, who was respected, but it was quietly explained to him that no one wanted to have anything to do with the culprit.

Swart understood, wished us well and we had our own party. Our spies elsewhere later let it be known that the said person was hauled over the coals. The Valley incident had been less obtrusive as I dimly remember--various "humourous" signs painted up around the crew rooms, but people got the message all the same.

Much, much, later I had the great pleasure of cutting the offending person dead when I was a civilian and he was introduced to me. Little victory perhaps, but I felt he was paid back for the petty vindictiveness he displayed to people to whom he should have set a better example.

Apart from that----two great tours on the magnificent Lightning!

[woodring]

LFfitt

Can you remember if the aircraft that caught fire on start up at Tengah was written off. {never seen a grow bag run so fast}

[GeeRam]

Can you remember if the aircraft that caught fire on start up at Tengah was written off. {never seen a grow bag run so fast}

Presumably you refer to XS928, which was declared Cat3 after damage caused by ground fire after fuel vented onto the wing in 1970.

It was airlifted by a Belfast back to Warton for new wings to be fitted, and then had a long career and eventually became one of the last Lightnings to fly being one of the 4 used by BAE after RAF service, transferring to Warton on 14/6/88. BAE began a major on it in 1991, but didn’t complete it and instead it was withdrawn from use and used as a spares source.
It still survives, now being the gate guardian at BAE Warton.

[Navaleye]

It sounds as credible as the story I heard a few days ago of a hangar full of Wellington bombers "Somewhere in England". Were you told this is a pub by any chance?

[lightningmate]

LFittNI,

Thanks for the info ref 'Tremblers Mutiny'.

I have some recall of the Malta event, now I know what it was. I avoided Valley that year so no recall of happenings at that location.

lm

[shandyman]

Oddly enough I had exactly the same conversation with an alleged ex-lightning guy who told the exact same story! I assume we were talking to the same person! My conversation took place in the late eighties in a pub he was running in S Wales, whilst I was serving at RAF Pembrey Sands. He told of spending a few days at sea and was picked up, as he recalls, by an american helo. Having said that, he also mentioned that it was his third ejection and he had the metal plate in his head to prove it which became visible in cold weather!

[BOAC]

In (belated!) response to 'newt', there is a WWOL home at this site (http://www.lightningpilots.com/) if you have not already registered.