Lightning over the Baltic
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Lightning over the Baltic
Some years ago I came across a retired Lightning pilot, who told me an incredible story involving a high-speed dash (following in-flight refuelling) towards the Baltic coast of the USSR; the purpose of the flight being to trigger their early-warning system, for NATO listening posts to analyse. The mission went pear-shaped when the Lightning suffered a double flame-out, and the story-teller (?) had to eject - ending up in the Baltic for many hours until rescued by NATO helicopter.
The pilot had definately flown Lightnings, and at some stage had held quite a high rank, but I have been unable to verify the story.
Have I been taken for a ride; is my informant a fantasist, or is the whole event hush hush?
The pilot had definately flown Lightnings, and at some stage had held quite a high rank, but I have been unable to verify the story.
Have I been taken for a ride; is my informant a fantasist, or is the whole event hush hush?
Well if it's true, it's not recorded as such.
In the log of Lightning losses there are none in the Baltic.
But quite a few in the North Sea
....which could cover all manner of activities...
An idea of time could narrow down the possibles of a particular lost airframe...60's or 70's?
Does sound a 'flight of fancy' though......
In the log of Lightning losses there are none in the Baltic.
But quite a few in the North Sea
....which could cover all manner of activities...An idea of time could narrow down the possibles of a particular lost airframe...60's or 70's?
Does sound a 'flight of fancy' though......
I've looked up the lists and there's no single Lightning loss that doesn't have a specific location, so assuming were not dealing with 'ammended' records, the story is just a yarn.
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Lightning bail out over Baltic
Being an ex-Lightning pilot myself having served at 226 OCU and on a squadron, I have never heard of this one - seems unlikely and clumsy as in reheat you can almost, if not actually see the gauges moving. Had a scramble onetime and was requested to 'Buster' to intercept but never reached the target, a Bear, as I ran short on fuel.
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I know the pilot's name and rank, and many other bizarre details of the alleged event. He was extremely bitter about his subsequent treatment by the RAF/MoD. It supposedly took place in the 70s, I believe, and was clandestine, so the records may show alternative reasons for the loss.
If true, it would make a top-selling adventure story; on the other hand, it may all be eyewash.
If true, it would make a top-selling adventure story; on the other hand, it may all be eyewash.
Lightning losses as follows:
1970- 7
1971- 10
1972- 5
1973- 4
1974- 4
1975- 2
1976- 3
1977- 1
1978- 0
1979- 3
1980- 0
1981- 1
1982- 1
1983- 2
1984- 2
1985- 2
1986- 1
1987- 2
1988- 1
None of these were recorded as Baltic area. But then again who knows how far "north sea" covers!!
1970- 7
1971- 10
1972- 5
1973- 4
1974- 4
1975- 2
1976- 3
1977- 1
1978- 0
1979- 3
1980- 0
1981- 1
1982- 1
1983- 2
1984- 2
1985- 2
1986- 1
1987- 2
1988- 1
None of these were recorded as Baltic area. But then again who knows how far "north sea" covers!!
Right here goes, going into really saddo mode here
So if this was the in the 1970’s, just looking at the loss records for the 70’s.
1970
Of the 7 a/c lost, 3 were 74 Sqn machines which crashed in Singapore, and a 226 OCU T.4 crashed in Norfolk.
2 others crashed into the North Sea and were classified as fatal.
Which leaves F.3 XP742 of 111 abandoned over the North Sea near Gt.Yarmouth on 7/5/70.
1971
Of the 10 Lightnings lost this year, 3 were in Cyprus and one a F.2A in Germany. One other was declared Cat 5 on landing after a mid-air with a FAF Mirage, and another crashed at Watty as a result of a premature rotation.
That leaves 4, one of which was of undetermined cause but registered as a fatal, F.3 XP736 of 29 which crashed into the sea off Gt. Yarmouth.
Another F.3 crashed into the sea off the Gt.Yamouth on 25/1/71, F.6 XS898 crashed into the River Tay on 28/4/71, and F.6 XS902 crashed into the sea off Grimsby on 26/5/71.
1972
Of the 5 that crashed in ’72, F.3’s XP747 and XP747 crashed after a mid-air near Harwich, and a F.3 crashed at Watty on take-off.
That just leaves 2 ‘Tubs’, a 226 OCU T.4 crashed 35 miles off the Norfolk coast on 14/12/72, and a T.5 that crashed off Spun Head on 6/9/71.
1973
Of the 3 this year, 1 was in Cyprus and 1 was a Cat 5’d at Wattisham after the u/c collapsed on landing.
The other was another 226 OCU T.4 abandoned off Gt.Yarmouth.
1974
Of the 3 in ’74, 2 crashed over land and F.6 XR768 crashed into the North Sea 3 miles off Mablethorpe after a reheat fire on 29/10/74.
1975
The only loss this year was in Cyprus
1976
The only loss this year was F.6 XR762 abandoned off Spurn Head after a u/c failure.
1977
Only loss was a RAFG T.4 which crashed near Gutersloh.
With no losses in 1978, that just leaves the 3 in 1979. One of these was again in Cyprus and another abandoned near RAF Valley after another u/c failure. That just leaves F.6 XS931 abandoned off Flamborough head after a control restriction caused by FOD.
So, take yer pick.......
So if this was the in the 1970’s, just looking at the loss records for the 70’s.
1970
Of the 7 a/c lost, 3 were 74 Sqn machines which crashed in Singapore, and a 226 OCU T.4 crashed in Norfolk.
2 others crashed into the North Sea and were classified as fatal.
Which leaves F.3 XP742 of 111 abandoned over the North Sea near Gt.Yarmouth on 7/5/70.
1971
Of the 10 Lightnings lost this year, 3 were in Cyprus and one a F.2A in Germany. One other was declared Cat 5 on landing after a mid-air with a FAF Mirage, and another crashed at Watty as a result of a premature rotation.
That leaves 4, one of which was of undetermined cause but registered as a fatal, F.3 XP736 of 29 which crashed into the sea off Gt. Yarmouth.
Another F.3 crashed into the sea off the Gt.Yamouth on 25/1/71, F.6 XS898 crashed into the River Tay on 28/4/71, and F.6 XS902 crashed into the sea off Grimsby on 26/5/71.
1972
Of the 5 that crashed in ’72, F.3’s XP747 and XP747 crashed after a mid-air near Harwich, and a F.3 crashed at Watty on take-off.
That just leaves 2 ‘Tubs’, a 226 OCU T.4 crashed 35 miles off the Norfolk coast on 14/12/72, and a T.5 that crashed off Spun Head on 6/9/71.
1973
Of the 3 this year, 1 was in Cyprus and 1 was a Cat 5’d at Wattisham after the u/c collapsed on landing.
The other was another 226 OCU T.4 abandoned off Gt.Yarmouth.
1974
Of the 3 in ’74, 2 crashed over land and F.6 XR768 crashed into the North Sea 3 miles off Mablethorpe after a reheat fire on 29/10/74.
1975
The only loss this year was in Cyprus
1976
The only loss this year was F.6 XR762 abandoned off Spurn Head after a u/c failure.
1977
Only loss was a RAFG T.4 which crashed near Gutersloh.
With no losses in 1978, that just leaves the 3 in 1979. One of these was again in Cyprus and another abandoned near RAF Valley after another u/c failure. That just leaves F.6 XS931 abandoned off Flamborough head after a control restriction caused by FOD.
So, take yer pick.......
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51 Sqn would probably know. Find an ex-Secret Squirrel and ask them what their Comet and Canberras were doing around that time. Mind you, they'll never tell you.
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The RAF was not the only operator of Lightnings . . .
Certainly in the '50s the RAF flew USAF aircraft, B45s I think, as Trueman would not authorise USAF crews and they certainly did boder crossings. The 2TAF Meteors used to have to delouse them when they came out. I heard the same of the Victor Training Flight - 1950s version.
Then remember there were Lightnings based in Germany and there may have been attempts to intercept Foxbats or delouse the SR71.
As far as 'North Sea' goes, we used to file 'open' post-reps at Nato Confidential that were works of pure fiction compared with the UK Secret postreps.
Certainly in the '50s the RAF flew USAF aircraft, B45s I think, as Trueman would not authorise USAF crews and they certainly did boder crossings. The 2TAF Meteors used to have to delouse them when they came out. I heard the same of the Victor Training Flight - 1950s version.
Then remember there were Lightnings based in Germany and there may have been attempts to intercept Foxbats or delouse the SR71.
As far as 'North Sea' goes, we used to file 'open' post-reps at Nato Confidential that were works of pure fiction compared with the UK Secret postreps.
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Lightning over the Baltic
This whole story sounds very far fetched and is probably just wishful thinking by the individual concerned. It is known that RAF Canberra's were used to 'trigger' Soviet air defences whilst working in conjunction with 51 Sqn and USAF SIGINT aircraft. These flights were referred to as Radio Proving Flights and continued for many years around the borders of Russia and other Warsaw Pact countries. However, there is no record anywhere of a Lightning being used for this purpose and, given the limited endurance of even the F2A and F6 versions of the aircraft, I doubt anyone in their right mind would seriously consider the Lightning a suitable aircraft for this activity. Furthermore, as the SR-71 regularly flew the 'Baltic Express' route at considerably greater height and speed than the Lightning could achieve, I don't really see what additional intelligence could be gathered by using a Lightning for precisely the same purpose.
The use by the RAF of three RB-45C Tornado's to overfly Eastern Europe and Western Russia in 1952 and 1954 in Op Ju-Jitsu has been in the public domain for some time, unlike other reconnaissance activities by RAF Canberra aircraft in the early 1950's.
Further details on Radip Proving Flights, Op Ju Jitsu, Op Robin and other reconnaissance activities from the early part of the Cold War can be found in the 'Operations' section of www.spyflight.co.uk
Heimdall
The use by the RAF of three RB-45C Tornado's to overfly Eastern Europe and Western Russia in 1952 and 1954 in Op Ju-Jitsu has been in the public domain for some time, unlike other reconnaissance activities by RAF Canberra aircraft in the early 1950's.
Further details on Radip Proving Flights, Op Ju Jitsu, Op Robin and other reconnaissance activities from the early part of the Cold War can be found in the 'Operations' section of www.spyflight.co.uk
Heimdall
The RAF was not the only operator of Lightnings . . .
Then remember there were Lightnings based in Germany
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W'kew, afraid you've been had old son. I would check the credentials of your 'source', it's not unknown for anyone to claim to be aircrew and come up with the most outlandish stories.
eg:- Many years ago a friend of mine was in hospital. In the same ward was a young man who kept telling the nurses he was a fighter pilot, own plane etc etc---in reality he was a liney on JPs.
That said, from Gutersloh we did have some interesting incidents on the IGB, some good fun as well.
eg:- Many years ago a friend of mine was in hospital. In the same ward was a young man who kept telling the nurses he was a fighter pilot, own plane etc etc---in reality he was a liney on JPs.
That said, from Gutersloh we did have some interesting incidents on the IGB, some good fun as well.
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More on Lightning losses
A bit more gen on the three Lightning F.6's lost by 74 Sqdn. in Singapore (Tengah), as I was on 74 at the time.......
One ploughed into the Johore Straits whilst doing a PI, pilot killed. The only bits ever recovered were the over-wing tanks floating in the sea. We "fairies" (Avionics) always reckoned it could have been an autopilot fault.
One was ejected from. This was east of Singapore after the u/c failed to come down, pilot OK--recovered by 103 Sqdn. helicopter from Changi.
The last one--and the worst sight I've ever seen in my life--was an F6 which got the fuel management wrong and took off from Tengah with the c of g too far back. It looked at first as though he was trying a rotation take off, so we all stopped to look. He swung over backwards at a sickening rate, was forced into a loop at about 300 ft., and ploughed straight into the kampong on the other side of the road. Ejection was initiated (we all saw the canopy come off), but the seat went straight into a tree......
As I'm sure everyone knows, Lightnings were absolute pigs to maintain, and the wonder was that they didn't just explode when the power went on, what with all the fuel leaking everywhere and the AVPIN.
The units also seemed to be flight, squadron and engineer- commanded by officers who spent most of their time managing their careers upwards, rather than displaying real leadership for the "blokes". Perhaps this was a sign of the times (my period on Lightnings was 68-71), but they seemed to be totally concentrated on doing their tour, getting in the AOC's good books then flitting away onwards and upwards.
We groundcrew always thought that the poor maintenance performance of the aircraft had a positive correlation to the leadership and management capabilities of the senior squadron officers. This famously (or rather, not famously, as it was covered up) showed itself in the Great 111 Squadron Groundcrew Mutiny of 1968.......but that's another story!
One ploughed into the Johore Straits whilst doing a PI, pilot killed. The only bits ever recovered were the over-wing tanks floating in the sea. We "fairies" (Avionics) always reckoned it could have been an autopilot fault.
One was ejected from. This was east of Singapore after the u/c failed to come down, pilot OK--recovered by 103 Sqdn. helicopter from Changi.
The last one--and the worst sight I've ever seen in my life--was an F6 which got the fuel management wrong and took off from Tengah with the c of g too far back. It looked at first as though he was trying a rotation take off, so we all stopped to look. He swung over backwards at a sickening rate, was forced into a loop at about 300 ft., and ploughed straight into the kampong on the other side of the road. Ejection was initiated (we all saw the canopy come off), but the seat went straight into a tree......
As I'm sure everyone knows, Lightnings were absolute pigs to maintain, and the wonder was that they didn't just explode when the power went on, what with all the fuel leaking everywhere and the AVPIN.
The units also seemed to be flight, squadron and engineer- commanded by officers who spent most of their time managing their careers upwards, rather than displaying real leadership for the "blokes". Perhaps this was a sign of the times (my period on Lightnings was 68-71), but they seemed to be totally concentrated on doing their tour, getting in the AOC's good books then flitting away onwards and upwards.
We groundcrew always thought that the poor maintenance performance of the aircraft had a positive correlation to the leadership and management capabilities of the senior squadron officers. This famously (or rather, not famously, as it was covered up) showed itself in the Great 111 Squadron Groundcrew Mutiny of 1968.......but that's another story!
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LFittNI,
re your 3rd incident, I went to school with PJT. A mean rugby player too. Must admit I had not heard of the incident in that detail.
As far as your comments re the OCs etc, I am not sure I could substantiate your remarks, but I remember about that period an aircraft crash often meant a career crash for sqn cdr, possibly OC Ops and the stn cdr.
This led to a living-on-a-knife-edge syndrome which I am sure was not good for the individual's morale or his effective leadership. Success could be measured only by tasks met and taceval scores.
re your 3rd incident, I went to school with PJT. A mean rugby player too. Must admit I had not heard of the incident in that detail.
As far as your comments re the OCs etc, I am not sure I could substantiate your remarks, but I remember about that period an aircraft crash often meant a career crash for sqn cdr, possibly OC Ops and the stn cdr.
This led to a living-on-a-knife-edge syndrome which I am sure was not good for the individual's morale or his effective leadership. Success could be measured only by tasks met and taceval scores.
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Success could be measured only by tasks met and taceval scores
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LFittNI
I have no recollection whatsoever of your assertion of a 'Mutiny' within Treble One during 1968. I think I would have noticed!
I do not dispute your view on the maintenance problems of the Lightning. Procuring an experimental aircraft as a front-line Interceptor without a major redesign of the basic systems is never a good idea.
I could expand to comment upon range/endurance and inadequate weapons carriage capability. Those issues should be history - but there is always STOVL JSF to contemplate!
lm
I have no recollection whatsoever of your assertion of a 'Mutiny' within Treble One during 1968. I think I would have noticed!
I do not dispute your view on the maintenance problems of the Lightning. Procuring an experimental aircraft as a front-line Interceptor without a major redesign of the basic systems is never a good idea.
I could expand to comment upon range/endurance and inadequate weapons carriage capability. Those issues should be history - but there is always STOVL JSF to contemplate!
lm
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Interesting thread. I've just checked my log book & during my SAR days, my crew & I hauled a Lightning pilot out of the North Sea on 26 May 1971 at night. We did not really come to a classic hover but scooped him up on the run. Seems this one has missed the stats?