BA DEP Payscale/pension

[P-T-Gamekeeper]

Having recently been thrown into BAs DEP pool, I have a couple of queries, if you will indulge me:

1. Can anyone post a link to the the detailed DEP payscale. I know it is on a recent thread, but am unable to locate it.

2. Are BALPA still trying to increase the company pension contribution for newbies?

3. Recently, someone posted that their pension pot would only give them a @£10,000/yr pension. I have just used a pension calc, & based on 12% + 5%, I came up with@£40,000+£6000 state pension. Am I doing my sums wrong?


Hoping for some helpful replies, but awaiting some PPrune wit and sarcasm!!!:\

[Hot Wings]

Congratulations on your efforts P-T and welcome!

1. The BA members area of the BALPA forum has detailed payscales. Expect to start on approximately £55K going up to £75k as a 7 year longhaul F/O.

2. BA BALPA is suffering from a majority of "I'm all right Jack" members, so don't expect any improvement in the pension. BUT you can roll around laughing when, in a few years time, you are asked to go out on strike to keep the final salary pension scheme of those selfish individuals!!!!

3. I'm sure your sums are right - having passed the numeracy test.;)

[Barney Stubble]

PTG

Well done on your sucessful completion of BA selection! I know some good people who didn't get that far, so it was not easy.

I am not a great expert having only recently joined BA but these questions are of importance, so here's what I can tell you...

1. look at ppjn.com it covers BA DEP pay as well as rest of industry. The annual increments are about £2k per year on top of that.

2. Balpa have stated somewhere in the (very)small print that they want increased contributions for BARP members (British Airways Retirement Plan) ie.all joiners post April 2003. But bear in mind that BARP guys are all new joiners to BA (150 bods), and Balpa's priority is the final salary scheme (NAPS) for 3000 bods, so where would you guess BARP comes on the Balpa agenda? Also note that less than 50% of Balpa members supported the final salary scheme for new joiners, so what's the chance of them voting for better contributions for BARP....

3. The actual figures are 7% + 5% of pensionable pay, pensionable pay being 75% of salary. Try crunching the numbers again and see what you come up with. Watson Wyatt, BA appointed administrator/actuary for the scheme have quoted me £7,500 annual pension after over 20 years service. State pension on top of that of course. Can't wait for that luxury retirement.

What I believe it all means is that you will have to put aside a serious chunk of your pay to have a liveable pension on retirement, or get lucky at the horses. The pay ain't bad so get saving!

Good luck

Barney

[Hot Wings]

Barney - your 3rd point is especially sad when it is compared to the £100+k pa pensions enjoyed by those crystalized members of APS - many of whom now fly for SIA and would love to tell you all about their pensions next time you're in SIN!!!

[Barney Stubble]

Hot Wings

Still flying with some crysatalized APS guys now...the tax Gordon Brown wants to take out of their £1.5 m+ pension fund is more than my pension fund is worth in total! Still, I have my youth!

Barney

[P-T-Gamekeeper]

Do the people on FSS pensions not realise there will come a time when the new kids will be in the majority? I wonder what will happen to their pensions then at the BALPA vote?

I feel a bit of back scratching is in order here. Take a teeny cut in your huge FSS pension to help the new guys, who may then help you down the line to fight for your retirement.

I reckon a lot of people are joining with a view that things will improve. I have a military pension to top up mine, but a lot don't have that luxury. If the pension doesnt get better ............., well VS are expanding and paying 15% of basic.............. That may be quite tempting to some. Still, on the bright side, it would improve my time to LHS if people started leaving!

Anyway, I still can't wait to start. Sunday morning in the US is SO much more appealing than midweek in Basrah!

[Carnage Matey!]

Take a teeny cut in your huge FSS pension to help the new guys, who may then help you down the line to fight for your retirement.

The days of the huge FSS pension have gone and a lot of people, myself included, do not expect to see the FSS last out our careers. Pensions are deferred pay. If you want to start robbing Peter to pay Paul one might reasonably ask if the DEPs coming in on £55K will be contributing to a hardship fund for the new SSPs who'll be doing the same job for less than half the pay? Of course not. The aim is to improve BARPS but nothing happens quickly in BA. Perhaps the next pay deal might see an improvement, especially given the difficulty the company are now having in recruiting suitable pilots.

Coming into BA with that sort of attitude is not going to endear you to your new colleagues. You may quickly find yourself pigeonholed into the 'whinging ex-mil FO' bracket like so many others.

[P-T-Gamekeeper]

Ouch! Not been pidgeon holed that quickly before.

I totally agree that it is better to help all, and I don't agree with taking away a contractual pension from someone who has worked for it. I sincerely hope the FSS remains for those who joined with it as part of their package. As you say, it is deferred pay, so you have already "earned" it.

We were told at interview that all changes had to come from the existing pot, so I was just exploring a more pilot agreed approach to the issue.

As I said earlier, I have an existing pension, so I am probably better off than most. I think the worst hit will be the airline crossovers from LCC's, with little pension, and large debts. I don't think this is a mil/civvie issue here.

Over the moon to be in, looking forward to flying, just trying to get a handle on some of the issues. It may take me a while to get used to the "Office Politics", and I hope I haven't offended by exploring possibilities.

[GS-Alpha]

Do the people on FSS pensions not realise there will come a time when the new kids will be in the majority?
Unfortunately many of us do, but we were out-voted by the majority who believed the BALPA line; that this decision would not effect the security of our future pensions. Yeah right.

[demobcurious]

Balpa have stated somewhere in the (very)small print that they want increased contributions for BARP members (British Airways Retirement Plan) ie.all joiners post April 2003. But bear in mind that BARP guys are all new joiners to BA (150 bods), and Balpa's priority is the final salary scheme (NAPS) for 3000 bods, so where would you guess BARP comes on the Balpa agenda? So if BALPA are dominated by the 'old guys' looking after themselves (understandably) what's the point in joining BALPA as a BA newbie ?? I don't want anyone else's money, but the current pension on offer at BA is poor and if BALPA want MY money I'd want them to do something for me - and negotiating a good pension is one of those things.

As for BA, IF I'm ever fortunate enough to have a choice of where to work next AND one of those places is BA, the pension is a big influence on the decision making. VS would be lovely though ....

[Human Factor]

We were told at interview that all changes had to come from the existing pot...

That's standard BA management bleating. They're just starting to learn about market forces so that attitude will inevitably change eventually.

[Hot Wings]

BA's style of management:

Rule#1: Know the cost of everything and the value of nothing.

Rule#2: Be penny wise and pound foolish.

Rule#3: I will protect my bonus. I will protect my bonus. I will protect my bonus.......

[Finger Bob]

The pension for new joiners is appalling. If you join BA in your thirties the projections show around 10k per year at 55.

But, that pension pot is yours to take with you if you change companies. With no bonding and a poor pension all that ties you is seniority and the "BA Way".

Without fleet expansion you may achieve a long haul command a few years before you retire. Then, you will be bottom of the Captains seniority list.

I wonder how many new starters are already wondering where they will take their 777/747 experience?

[Shaka Zulu]

To illustrate the pension contributions a little bit:
BA for the FSS spends about 7 pounds per head (company) to keep it alive
easy with their 7% contribution of basic spends 37pence per head.
No wonder they wanted to get rid of it?
Can I just say it is very shortsighted of BALPA and BA to assume that the new BARP will not increase in priority very soon, and I am quite happy to see that members in BALPA do see it.
Shame it got voted out though, would have been a huge incentive to many of us.

SZ

[wobble2plank]

As a BA newbie I am also looking closely at the pension scheme. Having just received my contract with the pension breakdown within I first laughed at the address of 'Terra Firma' and then got down to reading it.

As with P.T.Gamekeeper I come into BA with an active pension which rose tints my outlook a little. The rest I am intending to take to a finacial advisor to see what additional voluntary contributions could be made.

Unfortunately poor pension deals seem to be the current beast. I would not even comtemplate culling an established system to fund the pensions of those younger to the company. Imagine the animosity that would generate. The pension details were laid out clearly at the interview and therefore comes as no surprise. I, personally, will be AVC'ing in order to leave with a decent living.

Start saving boys and girls, the wage is good in comparison to your average office worker! (Granted they didn't have to mortgage their first newborns soul to pay for the licence:} )

Remember, the light at the end of the tunnel could well be an oncoming train.
:ok:

[maxy101]

Problem is, too many of you new guys are joining with these poor terms and conditions. Thus , BA see no reason to change it. Other groups of staff walk out at the drop of a hat, anf subsequently are treated with kid gloves and have cushy T's and C's. There is a moral in there somewhere.

[wobble2plank]

Maxy101, I couldn't agree more mate, but unfortunately look around and see the constant degradation of T's & C's.

The helicopter world is even worse with newbie pilots cavassing operators to work for free for experience!!!!!

I hope, along with all professional pilots, that this is not the top of some slippery slope. However there is a pool of less experienced pilots out there who are working for smaller outfits on far worse pay and T's & C's who would jump across at the drop of a hat and the management know that. O'Leary has proven that crews don't need to be happy when they are correctly bullied and threatened.


:rolleyes:

[MAX]

So where do new joiners take their free 777 rating?

Its slim pickin's with most companies.

MAX:cool:

[FlyingTom]

I was beginning to think I was the only person who thought the pension was a poor deal. When I joined BA I did so intent on not becoming a moaning Nigel. This pension issue is not a moan it's down right rude for BA to expect pilots (or others) to retire on so little, and the figure we are talking about is £9K at todays money.

BA had the best pension deal in the industry and I want those on NAPS and APS to continue on the scheme they joined up on. I know that they are concerned for their future pensions. BA has to pay a dividend one day and it is looking for a big cost saving somewhere.

It doesn't make BARP'ers moaners to raise this issue. It is surely more serious that I am going to have to retire on £9K than a (N)APS retire on £50K rather than £60K should BA close (N)APS and introduce a hybrid scheme.

And BA did not make it clear what the pension deal was when I joined, 12% or 7% ? was the question at the time and no one had the answer or mentioned pensionable pay being 3/4 of basic, we certainly didn't have access to the pension planner. Basic maths would have resulted in the £9K answer admittedly. All I was told was that BARP was costing BA the same as (N)APS so I joined expecting a lesser version of what previously existed. This was patently untrue, NAPS contributions are 25% plus anything else the company props up the pension fund with.

Next week the BA publicity machine is going to publicly address the pension "problem". I think it is important that those in (N)APS hear the details of the solution that BA would most like them to accept. BARP. They will all be told they are doomed if they don't sacrifice their FSS. After all BA isn't making huge sums of money, passenger bookings aren't at record highs and stock markets aren't recovering!

Having said that BA is still the best company out there, thats why I joined, and that's how I want it to stay. BARP is a poor reflection on how BA management value the individuals they employ.

As for the future; I hear that WW plays golf with O'Leary. There is currently no voice specifically for BARP members. BALPA are fully supportive of our cause but expect it to be drowned out over the next few weeks. I think we need our own lobby, I'd like to set one up if anyone is interested.

[Grass strip basher]

Just as a benchmark for you I work for a large bank in the city... my company pays in 10% of my salary a year to a pension fund (note it is not reduced to 75% of salary... how do BA get away with that!?!).

We also have some people on the old defined benefit schemes but they are now few and far between. My forecast pension is not too dissimilar to the £9-10k you quote. I have to make substantial additional voluntary contributions to have any hope of a comfortable retirement.

This is not a BA specific issue (apart from the greater % of people in the company on the old scheme)... this is systemic of the problems faced by an ageing population in the UK.

I hate to say it but if you want a final salary scheme now the only place you are likely to get it is in the public sector....

Oh yes you can also look forward to being taxed more in your retirement to pay for all the fat cat civil servants on their large final salary schemes.... the gap between people being screwed in the private sector and the huge latent liability of final salary pension in the public sector is growing everyday... who do you think is going to pay their pensions???.....oh well may as well go out blow it all on booze and fags and sod the long and happy retirement... :{

[toomuchradiations]

Could anyone give an example of a NET monthly pension for a BA new joiner??.....say he will work for 30 years ending up on a 6000 pound net salary a month....how much would he get pensionwise??......and say another guy works for 15 years retiring on a 4000 pound net monthly salary.....how big is the the difference??

thanks!

tmr

[FlyingTom]

Grass strip basher.

Yes I know. I am paying max AVC and the pension still isn't close to what a NAPS pension is. I agree that FSS for me is a pie in sky idea, however Britannia have relented and offer it after 5 years service (in theory), so it is possible. As for public sector pensions don't vote for Composite 12 or you can kiss goodbye to them aswell and work to 65+.

The question is why are BA etc unwilling to fund pensions at previous levels any more? During the 90's stocks did so well that companies didn't see the point of paying in. Then the bubble burst and everyone has had to play catch up. Having got used to low contributions the corporate world is reluctant to pay at previous levels and hope that we will all blame ourelves for living longer and retire poorer or top ourselves.

The World is a nastier place this century and all the corporations have imposed this massive pay cut and expect us to be grateful. The bottom line is that they make more profit.

As a long term strategy it won't work because if half the population in 35 years time is on the poverty line how can they make money? I propose a moderate pension contribution from BA, your Bank and all the others. The BA contribution is unrealistic, it needs to double and then for their benefit of having us off their liabilities when we go it should pay a premium. The deal is the opposite.

Note the decline in the credibility of trade unions as we all become corporate minded individuals and the suicidal logic with which we all justify our worsening terms and conditions. It is fear that has been engineered into the equation that makes us all bleet.

[Finger Bob]

Cavelino,

You have missed Flying Toms well presented point.

The new BA pension reflects the market rate. But, it is a sad reflection of where the industry and the UK economy is heading.

[MAX]

Britannia have relented and offer it after 5 years service (in theory)

Not theory, FACT!! Britannia members stood up for their new brethren. BA's it would seem did not.

Never the less, isnt BA still a good and secure company to work for?

Isnt it possible with the salary you earn to invest your expendable income on other investments for the future?

Im sure thats what us mere mortal people do.

MAX:cool:

[wobble2plank]

I agree with Max,

The pension isn't what it was, FACT!

Theres no point in getting into a squablle about old boys paying for new boys, it just ain't going to happen.

The pension, as offered by BA at the moment is pretty poor, but BARP is the baseline. With a decent wage plus some judicious (sp???) investment that pension plan can be nicely bumped up. Plus that pension contributions can be position in your tax return for tax relief. I don't know what the max AVC is but I think you can push upto 17% of your wage before the tax man starts looking.

And, at the end of the day, if you don't like BARP, pull out. It's your choice and your money. We are all big boys being paid good money to make decisions. Use that process to invest in your future, not the shiny new sports car for today.

Helmet on, duck down, wait for flak.
:} :} :}

[Barney Stubble]

To those who are knocking newbie BA DEPs as whingers I guess you must be loving it to finally have a chance to vent your own frustrations at Nigels expense! Yes you have a valid point but what do you gain by dissing your industry colleagues?

Personally I find it embarrassing and sad that BA has sunk to the level where others in the industry laugh at us rather than use BA as a bargaining tool for improving their own T+Cs. When the industry leader sets such a low standard, others will follow - the downward spiral for pilot T+Cs continues, watch out yourselves!

whinge over, standing by for incoming...

Barney

[demobcurious]

At least BALPA are standing up for pension rights. For themselves! From their website (last application date already passed though)



Vacancies at BALPA • Thursday, October 6, 2005
Current Vacancies
BALPA is the professional association for commercial airline pilots in the UK. Our membership is expanding and developing—and so are we. We aim to be a centre of excellence, providing high quality, value for money services to our members.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Principal Negotiator
BALPA is the Professional Association for commercial airline pilots in the UK. We have 8100 members, and this figure is growing monthly. We pride ourselves on giving our members the best advice and representation in the business, and we need an experienced industrial relations specialist to help us achieve this.

You will be part of a team of specialist negotiators whose job is to assist pilot representatives from specific airlines on industrial relations matters. You will advise and assist members on individual and collective issues such as pay and grievance, represent and negotiate on their behalf, and assist BALPA in the development of their business plans. You will need to build excellent relations with our members and airline management to achieve these aims.

You will need a good standard of education and ideally a minimum of five year's experience in a similar role. Demonstrable skills in handling complex negotiations and building and maintaining membership levels will also be essential.

We offer a salary of £35,000 - £40,000 p.a. a final salary pension scheme and company car benefit.

Download the full job description and person specification or email [email protected] quoting 'PN position' in the subject header.

The closing date for applications is 23 September 2005

[P-T-Gamekeeper]

There seems to be a little confusion as to the exact company contribution.

I thought it was 7%, with another 5% matched to your personal 5%. Is this so, or is it just 7% as stated by some?

12% + 5% PC for me, with a small lump sum from another pot, to retire at 60, works out for me at about @£35k + state pension. This seems a long way off the £10k quoted earlier, so I guess one of us is in for a shock!

[wobble2plank]

Here is how it is laid out.

Pension contributions are flexible with the following combinations:

5% from you 7% from company giving 12%
4% from you 6% from company giving 10%
3% from you 5% from company giving 8%

You may increase your contribution with AVC's but the company will offer a max of 7%. I believe, but am not certain, that the tax threshold for AVC's is set at a combined 17%.

The more you pay the more the company pays upto 7%. However, FO starting pay, gross before flying benefits is approx £42000, the pensionable pay however has not been increased and starts at £32000. This is where it gets complicated as the pension is only calculated on 75% of your basic salaried, pensionable wage i.e 12% of £32000 not including flying benefits which are tax reduced due to not being pensionable income.

If I have made some glaring errors I'm sure that someone will point it out but, as far as I can figure it, thats how it works.

p.s. I'm on BARP as well :-(

Probably muddied the waters again!!

:ok:

[P-T-Gamekeeper]

I think BA need bringing to task if this is the case. At interview, we were DEFINATELY told pension was 12 % contribution. The Ad in FI, and the BA website say it is an"Industry Leading Pension"

I think a call to the Advertising Standards Agency may be in order, as that is a claim that is totally untrue.

The number of pilots joining under this scheme is growing fast, and must be near 10% of the workforce soon. How can BA/BALPA fail to represent such a large section of its members.

I know a lot of people say "You knew what it was when you joined", but that is not actually true. You have no visibility of BLR before you join BA, and there appears to be a lot of smoke and mirrors surrounding this issue - not surprising if it really is as bad a deal as it seems. It seems to fall behind every other major airline in the country, other than easy, which it is comparable with.

[Barney Stubble]

PTG

12% + 5% PC for me, with a small lump sum from another pot, to retire at 60, works out for me at about @£35k + state pension. This seems a long way off the £10k quoted earlier, so I guess one of us is in for a shock!

The one in for a shock is you mate, but at least you seem to be taking it on board. Lord Melchard sprang to mind when I saw your previous post "in the face of insurmountable evidence, a blind unwillingness to face the truth should see us through"

Firstly, lets not make Balpas life easy by comparing apples with pears, BARP and NAPS retirement age is 55, so don't get into the trap of saying it's ok if I have to work to 75 to get an equivilant pension.

Your £35k pension requires a fund of £700k at 60. Good luck with your AVCs, however some people have lives.

Barney

[FlyingTom]

Right here goes. From the Watson Wyatt (Ltd) website which you can only log onto after joining because you need your user ID.

Tier of Membership History: Member 6% Employer 12%(pilot).

From my payslip pensionable salary = £32130, basic = £42841.
(The reason for the difference is that at the last pay deal a lot of non-pensionable allowances were bundled together and added to salary).

Therefore I pay £160.65 and BA £321.30 per month.
(32130/12*.006= 160.65)

I can top my contribution up to a max of 15% of my total taxable pay. I paid £514.28 Additional Voluntary Contribution (AVC). £514.28 + £160.65 = £674.93. 674.93/0.15= 4499.53 which was about 91% of my gross.

So with such huge sums going into my pension why am I not going to retire a squillionare?

If you put these figures into a pension calculator

http://www.pensioncalculator.org.uk/pages/home.php

you will see the problem. To get a decent pension you will need a fund of £350 000 plus, this is why NAPS and especially APS are such great schemes. They all fall short so use extra company income to top up the pension. The public sector pensions just raise taxes to pay. In effect the members of NAPS voted in the new BARP scheme by their silence. By underfunding BARP BA releases money to prop up NAPS . This is very divissive stuff and BA know it.

The silver linings for BARP'ers? At pay point 5 pensionable pay rises from 75% to 80% basic. Pay increases by 4% per annum. The Watson Wyatt calculator is too dim to evaluate right to left seat pay increase at say year 12 (pay rises 25%). A tax effecient salary sacrifice scheme may be impemented. Stock markets may make continuous exponential rises for the next 2 centuries. If you do achieve a large fund you could use draw-down instead of annuities. Something positive may happen to pensions in the next 20 years. You could work to 75. BA may acknowledge the deliberate payment holiday with BARPS and pay a sensible contribution. Buy lots of BA shares, your pension money is going to be used to pay the dividend after all.

The down side. All pay negotions at BA (and everywhere) will always be downward. Annuity rates can only fall, so £6K per £100k fund will be £4K when I retire, wiping out all the silver lining gains. If you index link your annuity it reduces further. If you want a spouse included it reduces further. If you take a cash lump sum .....

Please don't think I'm not aware of the even worse deal for all other groups on BARP. Their deal is 3,4,or 5% member. Company 5,6 or 7%. Pilots only get 12% because we retire at 55.

The NAPS pension awareness campaign kicked off yesterday. The aim is to get NAPS to hybrid into BARP but expect a lot of hyperbole to the contrary.

P.S. this website is monitored.

[P-T-Gamekeeper]

F-T

Thanks for that. A great insight into some of the issues with BARP/NAPS.

You seem to be suggesting that the company contribution is 12%, with me adding 6%. Other guys have said it is definitely 7% from BA - can anybody say catagorically which it is for DEP's?

Have been talking things through with Mrs P-T-G, who is an employment lawyer, and far wiser than me on these issues. She suggests that FSS pensions are a thing of the past, and only going to cause companies/employees grief in the future.

She pointed out that in reality, you need to look at the overall pay/pension package, to see who is better off, and it seems to me that BA is still the best bet in the long term.

I agree that these issues are divisive. I think the collective bargaining principle of our contracts will suffer, now that BALPA are not negotiating the same contract for all pilots. Previously, we were all voting for a contract applicable to all pilots at some stage of our careers. Now the pilot vote is split, and as a result, I believe we have weakened our negotiating position. Management will be able to play BARPers against NAPSters, and watch them squabble. Come the moment, I hope we realise this, and all pull together.