US Army Warrants

[New_W01]

I have asked this question elsewhere but havent recieved a sensible answer yet.

Have any US warrants had any problems with the Brits concerning our rank? They don't understand we're officers.

Anyone else had the same problem?

[New_W01]

Err, WO1 funnily enough.

[Rev I. Tin]

I remember a US Army UH60 WO pilot flew into RAF Bruggen and I booked him into the Sergeants', not the Officers' Mess for his accommodation.
No complaints at all from him. I think he was grateful for somewhere to put his head (and happy hour).

God Bless.

[New_W01]

So British NCOs should salute a US Army WO1.

[Talking Radalt]

Most Warrants Officers I know are on their own planet anyway, one way or another.
:E

[sparkie]

Several years ago whilst stationed at Rheindahlen I made a trip to Ramstein with some colleague SNCO's. On arrival at the base, the Top Graders receptionist saw on my RAF F1250 ID that I was a WO and directed me to the BOQ.

Never lived it down....mind you, excellent room, even had a fridge and TV.

Its one of those anomalies that will forever differentiate the NATO forces rank structure.

Personally I always thought being a WO gave you the best of both worlds.

Live with it buddy, remember....when you commission something you bring it in to service...when you warrant something its guaranteed!!

Incoming!!!!!!!!!!

:ok:

[Farmer 1]

I thought it was the commission that was saluted.

[The Rocket]

Sounds like a one fingered salute would definately be the most appropriate kind in this particular situation.:rolleyes:

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

I think the "new" in the handle is a bit of a give away.......delusions of grandeur methinks:rolleyes:

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[Rev I. Tin]

So British NCOs should salute a US Army WO1

I would have difficulty saluting a US Army anything.

[New_W01]

We hold Officer status so NCOs should salute. Why do you guys have a problem with this?

[New_W01]

But we are not 'Enlisted' either. So we do hold Officer status. US enlisted ranks salute Warrant ranks. My question was why Brits have a problem with this.

[Rev I. Tin]

I take it, chap, that you are a newly graduated helicopter pilot in the US Army?
If so, you are the US equivalent of British Army Corporal.
No I wouldn't salute a US Army WO1, and I don't have a problem with that. Sounds like you do though.

[Red Line Entry]

Perhaps the easiest way to explain it to you as follows:

1. British NCOs and airmen DO NOT salute British Warrant Officers

2. You are officially equivalent to a British Warrant Officer

Ergo,

British NCOs and airmen DO NOT salute you!

So get over it!!!

[ZH875]

I have asked this question elsewhere but havent recieved a sensible answer yet.Wrong place to ask then...

[Rev I. Tin]

Wrong place to ask then...
:ok:

[New_W01]

US Army Warrant Officers ARE NOT equivilent to Brit Warrants.

As a WO1, I'm not a Commissioned Officer but I am an appointed Officer (by Warrant) and a member of the O Club. On promotion to CW2, I will receive a Commission, so I'll be a Commissioned Warrant Officer.

And on saluting:

According to regulations, while in uniform, enlisted personnel should salute any Commissioned or Warrant Officer in any branch of the US Uniformed Services:

-US Army
-US Air Force
-US Navy
-US Marine Corps
-US Coast Guard
-US Public Health Service Commissioned Corps
-National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration Commissioned Corps

That would go for all other friendly forces too.

Again, why do Brits have a problem with this?

[ZH875]

As a WO1, I'm not a Commissioned OfficerSo why do you feel you need to treated as one and be saluted!.

Do you salute Civil Airline Pilots with the 'Rank' of Captain.?

Perhaps you Yanks also salute Railway Station Masters, Lift Attendants, Chauffers, and anyone else in a mickey mouse uniform.

[Rev I. Tin]

Again, why do Brits have a problem with this?
It's 'cos we get confused with your rank badge. Looks very similar to a trainee in a UK McDonalds.:}

Fella, you sound like you are looking for salutes when most of us go out of our way to avoid throwing one up.

[Two's in]

Same old, same old. If you ever have to ask other people how important you are, the answer is usually "not very", and if you ever have to use those immortal words "but my rank is equivalent to..." you a clearly sufffering from SPS (small penis syndrome). It's clearly not your fault you are in a state of limbo between the accepted social strata, have you ever thought of applying for a commission old chap?

If you really have a problem with it, the next time some Brits fail to salute you, go over to them, and in an officer like manner take them to task for it. You will get either:

a. A salute (very small chance, and they will only be taking the pi$$)
b. A fat lip (highly probable and warranted - no pun intended)
c. Howls of laughter (somewhat probable)

[sid007]

If anyone is interested come over to ARRSE and see the fun GI Joe has already given many people.

http://www.arrse.co.uk/cpgn2/index.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=22303#380464


Sid

[Melchett01]

Have a very good friend that I have worked with for the past 2 years who happens to be a US Army WO - Commissioned Warrant Officer 3. It took us all a few weeks to work out exactly what the hell that meant when he first started, but essentially he - and all other CWs (2-5) are classed as junior officers, and are treated as such. They do not salute fellow JOs on unit or call them sir and it's a system that works fine with us. However, by the time they get to CW 3/4/5 they have that much experience they are usually 'equivalent' to Sqn Ldr / Maj.

From working with the US Army in Telic, I found the biggest problem came when you had Brit WOs / Sgt Majs who quite rightly, are at the top of the tree as far as we are concerned, but this one particular WO was relegated to organising cleaning rosters by the US Army as they didn't understand the difference between Brit / US WO ranks. That one was very quickly sorted when said Brit WO (almost 20 yrs experience) had a rather loud quiet word with said US Army Sgt Maj (approx half that experience). At least there's one Sgt Maj in the US Army now knows the differece :\

The thing to remember is that the CW scheme is usually for tech specialists - pilots, intel etc and they go through their own Warrant Officer Candidate selection / school. Although they fit in somewhere in the JO bracket, think across to PA type specialists is about as close as I can come up with an equivalent status in the RAF.

[SASless]

WO-1,

First off to my British friends....W1's are commissioned officers in the United States Army. They are not enlisted men....they are not Sargeants or Corporals or in any way an NCO. They are officers.

If your military discipline and standards of conduct allow you to ignore rank of other military forces of the world....I would be a bit surprised to know that.

It is fine to banter and when done in good cheer....it is enjoyable.

As to understanding rank structure.....I would suggest the RAF has some explaining to do as well....and if anyone can understand the epaulet devices connoting rank as worn by the RAF...then he is a far better man than me....I merely assume the more rings, stripes, and braid one of the Crabs has on .....means more senior rank extant.

Saluting officers....only when we recognize them as being superior...however we pride ourselves (US Army Warrant Officers) as being soldiers....and thus saluting a superior officer (even if only by way of rank) is something we do out of tradition and military courtesy. Thus we will salute the British officers we run across....and can identify as officers.

To my WO-1 poster....no one is that stupid....even as a WO Jug....but it sure pulled some fish out of the depths! Which proves WO-1's are never as naive as they appear to be....remember...they used to be very senior enlisted men and as such bear watching....closely and constantly.:ok:

[Tourist]

I particularly enjoyed this on arrse

"we're entitled to a salute. "

"And so is the Chief Scout, from all the other Scouts, but you won't see me chucking one up for him either. "
:ok: :ok: :ok: :ok:

[Farmer 1]

That would go for all other friendly forces too.Judging by some of the replies, I think you might have hit the nail on the head.

The problem with Brits saluting warrants is simple - we don't do it. We salute the commission.

[Farmer 1]

How long did it take us to make friends with our old enemies?
How long will it take us to make friends with our old allies?

[Navaleye]

If you hold a commission you are an officer. If you don't you are not. It doesn't mean you are treated with any less respect or courtesy however.

[Shjustme]

Wing Commander sitting in his plush Whitehall office telephones Flt Lt in Germany about something or other.
Before conversation is completed he enquires of the Flt Lt, ''How is Warrant Officer X doing, is'nt it about time he applied for a commission?''.
Flt Lt relays this across the corridor to the WO, who replies, ''No thanks, I'll remain a professional!'' Which is repeated back down the line to Wingco in Whitehall.
The silence was deafening.
:) :) :)

[vortexadminman]

Ok New WO1 this is the simple version. British Warrant officers Wo2 and WO1 and RAF WO s do not hold the Queens commision hence we don't get saluted. Nor do we want to be. The Officers hold a Queens comission and therefore get saluted. The Officer might be a grade A **** but you don't salute him or her as such, we salute the Queens commision. I know from having been there you Americans do salute your WO1. We don't and such as it is never will nor we we salute yours however as a mate of mine did a few years back when a "gunny" was ranting about not being saluted by British soldiers, he did. He did it morning noon and night and everytime he entered the room, left the room, saw the gunny everywhere......... careful what you wish for.

[SASless]

http://www.usawoa.org/woheritage/Hist_of_Army_WO.htm

Says it all.....well some of it anyway!

ZH....the hook has been swallowed...and is set.....feel the tugging of the line yet?

[timex]

So who forgot to Salute the WO....Why post here anyway, sounds as if you already knew the answer.

If we are supposed to salute you and yours, does that mean that yours should have been saluting ours......Strangely enough never seen it happen.

Never seen a USMC WO (that includes the USMC Senior WO) ask to be saluted...probably more important things to worry about.

[Maple 01]

Oh, so the correct form of address isn't 'oy mate, shift yer egg whisk we've got a real 'plane coming in' then? (UH1 v Chipmunk)

[dirtygc]

A US WO1 rank fell out of ma cornflakes box the other morning. I was most upset as I'd really hoped for something useful like a spinning top.

/flame on:cool:

[Rakshasa]

Warrant Officers are NCOs, NOT officers. You hold a warrant, not a commision. Therefore you are a Non-Commisioned Officer!

See? WOs are just NCOs with delusions of grandeur! :ok: :E

[Need for Speed!]

New WO1,

I am sat here as a British Officer on a US Army camp laughing my nuts off, because you have just given me enough banter ammunition to last a week!:ok:

The US Army Master Sergeant (Brit WO2 equiv), sitting on the desk opposite, has had to endure me reading out your posts from here and 'ARRSE' for the last half an hour. His comments such as "Yeah, he ain't nut'in, he must be noo, 'cos they give them CW2 'like that', I think like within a year, or sum'in." says it all really!! :rolleyes:

As has been pointed out to you on 'ARRSE', you have achieved this rank straight from training, and have clarified how much credibility you have by the fact you will be promoted within a year on time served alone.

I work regularly with the aviation battalion here. Nearly all the pilots are CW2-5. I call them ‘Chief’, they call me ‘Sir’. We both respect what the other has achieved and neither have ideas above our station. I can’t wait to tell them about you, I am sure they will have some fantastic words of advice!:p

NFS

[SASless]

Rak....

Sorry ol' Bean....they are Commissioned Warrant Officers nowadays....much to the chagrin of we old bunch of Warrant Officers. How the US Army in their infinite wisdom could achieve such a situation is beyond me. However one must recall the Army....just like all...operative word here....all military organizations, is managed by Commissioned Officers (but run by NCO's and Warrant Officers).

Nowadays they get commissioned.....whereas in the good old days....we received a Warrant from the Secretary of the Army....and we were most happy with that arrangement. We quite happily fell into the nether regions...officers but not commissoned officers...but not enlisted either. We were satisfied to earn our respect vice obtaining same by means of a piece of paper....almost like buying a commission in some Regiment as you folk did.

The US Army required Warrant Officer Candidates to score higher on the Standardized Tests than they did for commissioned officers....thus again the management set up a relationship bound to fail. Those in charge were not always the sharpest knife in the drawer when compared to those being supervised. Ah...but the fun that caused!

Get yer facts straight before discharging yer weapon....makes for more accurate shooting....but then....are you a commissioned officer?



Need for Speed....ask about a thing called WOPA....see if it still exists? A covert (barely and not always) organization made up of Warrant Officers....full name....Warrant Officers Protective Association. Warrants banded together to "protect" one another....and the group....even if it meant taking a brother Warrant aside for some corrective counseling in private....private usually meaning out behind the hangar one evening late. Nowadays it would be known as "Wall to Wall Counseling".

[Rakshasa]

SASless Bah ye no fun! I was jossing with him :P

And whats this? A little erk like me an occifer?! Why I'll have you know I work for a living! :} :E

[TwoDeadDogs]

Hi all
Wasn't there a story going about a WW 11 Senior British Officer, whilst in conversation with an Australian SO, alluded to the fact that the 'Stroilian soldiers weren't very good at saluting British Officers. The reply: "Oh,I'm sure if you wave, they'll wave back!"
regards
TDD

[Secret Squire]

Out of interest, who signs US Commissions, the occupant of the whitehouse at the time, or some other sleazy politician?

[FOMz]

If it is the current occupant; that gives proof that monkies can be taught to write. :}

[Twonston Pickle]

New WO1,

Lots has been written here about equivalencies etc, but the real point was raised by SASless' link; the American system was established from the long-held British Model. Therefore, it's not a case of us (Brits) agreeing to salute you (USA) but maybe a case of you guys swallowing humble pie and realising that we have been running a military structure longer than you. In fact, the majority of countries around the World has adopted the Brit Model in one modified form or another. Who, therefore, do you think might have precedence over such an arguement. Besides, if NATO think you are between an officer and an enlisted man, who are we to argue.

As a commissioned officer, I hold a commission from the Queen; WOs hold a warrant issued by the Sec State for Def. WOs are skilled, knowledgable and well respected people in the British Military but have no desire for Officer status (save a few applying for a commission). The point is that you hold one or the other but not both; you cannot have your cake and eat it! Look forward to receiving a salute from you; let me know where you are and I'll be glad to drop by (it's the only time I will go out of my way for one instead of trying to avoid them!). Hope you are now suitably back in your box.

Incoming........................

[dopeonarope]

Does one become a Warrant Officer in US Forces once one has completed basic training and gotten career medals for various courses, flying over over war zones (N Ireland for example!);)

Get over it you are not a Commisioned Officer, you are a Warrant Officer. WO1, bottom of the 5 stage WO system you have US of A:mad:

Hoist to crew winching over and OUT

[Farmer 1]

TwoDeadDogs,

That story is simply not true. I'm sure the Australian SO you refer to was British.

Special Forces, if memory serves me well. Some people manage to get their priorities right.

Farmer.

[Safeware]

Newbie,

Would you be satisfied that (at least in the RAF) WO's are afforded the respect the deserve by other non-commissioned personnel calling the 'Sir' and by officers calling them 'Mr'?

sw

[dirtygc]

New WO 1

After a bit of home support?

http://forums.military.com/groupee/forums/a/tpc/f/65819558/m/3920040020001

Now try going here too.


http://www.zenhex.com/quiz.php?id=14947

[Letsby Avenue]

US UK

CW1 WO1 - 2/LT
CW2 Lt
CW3 Capt
CW4 Major

All CW ranks are effectively commisioned. Do not fool around with a CW4....He knows what he is talking about!

The AAC should have adopted this system years ago along with all the other highly specialised (paid) arms.

[Michael Edic]

There is nothing I enjoy more than a good bit of pedantry, for our American cousins that means being picky.
In Britain the RN and the other two services have physical differences in the way they salute, this does not mean that when I am on a ship I adopt the Naval style of saluting.
In the British forces the commission is saluted, not the person. Thus, and I hope you can see where I am going, in view of the facts presented above you can't expect any British NCO or airmen to salute a new WO1 as they aren't commissioned and therefore would not be saluted if they were British. However, on gaining a commission as CW2 I can see that there is some justification for expecting a salute from British enlisted men.
To be honest with you though, your whole b****y rank structure is so complicated you can hardly expect those not daily immersed in it to fully comprehend it.
In short Newbie, back in your box for at least a year!

[SASless]

Michael...

Care to explain the rank system of the RAF to me? I saw every combination of colours and striping to beat the band....even saw solid white rank stripes....?

[Michael Edic]

Simple,
We have airmen, NCOs, Warrant officers, who cunningly hold a warrant and don't get saluted, and commissioned officers who equally cunningly hold a commission and do get saluted.
I think you are having problems with the rank insignia of the RAF rather than than the structure. The explanation is a little trickier, however I will attempt to explain.
Airmen's rank insignia consist of nothing, or propellors with 2 or 3 blades on, I shall allow you to guess which is more senior. A four bladed propellor indicated a Junior Techician, senior to a two or three bladed propellor but junior to a corporal, although this rank is being phased out.
NCOs have 2 or 3 chevrons. Three chevrons with the aforementioned four bladed propellor (only for technical ranks) and the three chevrons with a crown fro a Flight sergeant.
Warrant officers have the royal cipher.
Commissioned officers have a system of thin medium and thick stripes much like our Naval bretheren only admittedly more difficult to decipher form a distance. The more stripes and the thicker they are the more senior.
White band is a training rank.
As I alluded to at the beginning of this post the rank structure is rather simple although I will willingly admit that officers rank insignia may be hard to spot at a distance. Wasn't me that whinged about not being saluted though!

[SASless]

Michael....

Thanks for the help...but I am still a mite confused....I looked at a graphic of the rank insignia for both officers and other ranks...and saw insignia for Technicians...NCO's both junior and senior...and then also Other Ranks, Aircrew that had yet more symbols on the rank insignia. Does that mean that Aircrew are a different rank and thus more senior than equal ranking NCO's? Do Technicians hold rank as do NCO's?

Now the Officer things when seen on a poster are quite simple....and seem to be a knockoff of the the Navy rank insignia concept. But...I get puzzled when I see Group Captains, Squadron Commanders, and Commode Doors.....are there fleets in the RAF?

Can a Squadron Leader be given command of a Wing if he is exceptional without being promoted to Wing Commander? How many Group Captains can you have when there are just a few Groups in existence? Can a Group Commander command a Wing...or Wing Commander command a Squadron?

This is all very confusing to me!

[MightyGem]

SASless, these may help:

RAF ranks:
Non Commisioned (http://www.raf.mod.uk/organisation/non-comm.html)
Commissioned (http://www.raf.mod.uk/organisation/comm.html)
Someone else can explain why Squadron Leaders command flights, and Wing Commanders command squadrons etc

British Army ranks. (http://www.army.mod.uk/presscentre/badges/)

Royal Navy ranks. (http://www.royal-navy.mod.uk/static/pages/1936.html)

[Cougar]

Had this experience in Oz 2 years ago. Went on a course with a CW4 helo pilot. No one knew what to call him or exactly what CW4 meant. So we asked. He was happy to go by first name basis with officers (no junior ranks on course). Out on the base no one saluted him, and h didn't get antsy. So New_WO1, i don't think you have a leg to stand on. Expecting a salute is like trying to get blood out of a rock. Do you feel better at night for being saluted? (i bet you do!!)

[Rakshasa]

Just adding to what Mighty Gem already posted. This has NATO grades too so should be easier to compare...

RAF Ranks... (http://www.rafcom.co.uk/information/rank.cfm)

[West Coast]

"As a commissioned officer, I hold a commission from the Queen"

A commission from a titular head of state? A mere figurehead good for little other than wasting state money on castles, scandals and an occasional ribbon cutting ceremony at the new library.

Do you think the PM could sign off instead? At least you get some work out of him.

I do believe someone said duck...

[Rakshasa]

SASless,

but I am still a mite confused....I looked at a graphic of the rank insignia for both officers and other ranks...and saw insignia for Technicians...NCO's both junior and senior...and then also Other Ranks, Aircrew that had yet more symbols on the rank insignia. Does that mean that Aircrew are a different rank and thus more senior than equal ranking NCO's? Do Technicians hold rank as do NCO's?

The fancy stuff on the ranks for aircrew are just added stuff beyond the aircrew's brevet. Must maintain the Aircrew uber alles after all.

Basically they're just the same as blunties but with flying pay.

Now the Officer things when seen on a poster are quite simple....and seem to be a knockoff of the the Navy rank insignia concept. But...I get puzzled when I see Group Captains, Squadron Commanders, and Commode Doors.....are there fleets in the RAF?


Not really. Just a large RN influence. IIRC the US Air Force grew predominantly out of its army. Here, the union of the RNAS and the RFC meant a greater mixing of the two's traditions and their paraphanalia.

Can a Squadron Leader be given command of a Wing if he is exceptional without being promoted to Wing Commander?


It's not in the realms of imposibility but an exceptional Sqn Ldr would more likely make Wing Co. before a command post opened up on a Sqn. Though the two often go hand in hand.

How many Group Captains can you have when there are just a few Groups in existence?

Staff Posts. AVM promos too.

Can a Group Commander command a Wing...or Wing Commander command a Squadron?

Umm, that's usually the way it is these days.

[Washington_Irving]

Westcoast wrote:

""As a commissioned officer, I hold a commission from the Queen"

A commission from a titular head of state? A mere figurehead good for little other than wasting state money on castles, scandals and an occasional ribbon cutting ceremony at the new library.

Do you think the PM could sign off instead? At least you get some work out of him.

I do believe someone said duck..."

As opposed to that shaved chimp in Washington? I doubt TCB will be working as hard when he's pushing 80!

You can give HM a slagging when you get the first clue regarding the British Constitution and the role of the Sovereign. And yes, this is a bite...

Oh, haven't there been some cases where Sqn commanders have been Gp Capts? Why the excess number of Groupies can't be sent to the glue factory instead of wasting rations at the sqn level, I don't know.

[West Coast]

Looks like someone has their skivvies in a bunch.

"You can give HM a slagging when you get the first clue regarding the British Constitution"

No, actually I don't have to wait. Yeah, I dig that whole advice and consent thing. It would be the end of the royal family if he or she king or queen tried to use powers given.

[timex]

A commission from a titular head of state? A mere figurehead good for little other than wasting state money on castles, scandals and an occasional ribbon cutting ceremony at the new library.

Yeah, but you all wish you had one, and a Castle or two...:ok: :ok:


Shaun

[West Coast]

Nah, we have the Kennedy's instead. Got a spare castle you can put them up in? Gonna need the extra big one for teddy, and DON'T get in a car with him.

[timex]

Nah, we have the Kennedy's instead

You have my sympathies.........

[SASless]

Hey Westie....

At least one only hears from the Queen on ceremonial occasions....ah....maybe we can convince King Ted to do the same....in private he probably carries a purse too.

[Above Datums]

Hmm who you rather sign your commisssion HM The Queen or this.....

http://mitya.pp.ru/anato/bush_chimp.jpg

Taking cover!

AD ;)

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

Ok you got me..........which one's the chimp:p

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[West Coast]

If the queen is out that day doing whatever it is that a queen does, can Charles, or even the butler sign off on the commission?
Better yet, perhaps Willy could while wearing an armband.
I can hear him now

"Aah crap grandma, I had plans for today, I don't want to sit around the castle today signing paperwork"

[Rakshasa]

Isnt Harry Joining the Army? Wouldn't that make his commission a note from his Gran? :E

[Letsby Avenue]

Interesting that New_WO1 has buggered off... Perhaps he didn't get the reply he wanted?

I don't know anything about him but he is clearly fascinated with 'Respect'. Wrong side of the tracks I suspect....

Have you considered earning it Old Chap?

:rolleyes:

[West Coast]

Perhaps as a new WO he is in need of information as it applies to interaction with an ally and not a bunch of tossers who pile on.

[FOMz]

Meeeow! I think the 'Bull in a china shop' approach didn't help his cause.

[Huron Topp]

For gawd's sake, WC, the boys have given all the info in the world. Not only here, but on ARRSE and military.com. He just didn't like the answers.
and not a bunch of tossers who pile on.
That's just the cherry on top.:E Young fellow clearly has a chip on both of his shoulders. If he can't take the pish here, he'll have real fun in the real world, now won't he?

[timex]

West Coast

I think the guy has had quite a comprehensive answer on 3 different forums. After that it becomes banter, I'd really like to hear what your WO's think of him and his attitude.

Anyway time for a beer:ok: :ok:

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

The problem for Westy and his cousins is that if they cannot comprehend the likes of Fawlty Towers and Benny Hill what chance have they got with good old British Military humour:rolleyes:

And if they can't understand British humour then they have absolutely no chance with the bleedin obvious:p

It's all there in small and large font Westy and as plain as the nose on your face so do try and deal with it old chap:ok:

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[West Coast]

No, I recognize Brit humour. Problem is I don't find it very funny.

I never saw humour as being an asshole to someone, but that's your sense of what's funny not mine.

I was raised watching Benny Hill, see no parallels between his slapstick routines and what you put forth as humour here.

[Two's in]

Thank God the real world is not full of cynical, sarcastic, pish taking bar-stewards, especially those sensitive military types who are always able to get in touch with their feminine intuition and help a colleague such as WO1 with his life challenges. ...otherwise he might be in for a tough old career path if he can't take the knocks at his first rank.

[ZH875]

Maybe he should have bought two packets of cornflakes, he could have got his CW2 badge for two tokens and $1.50.

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

"Maybe he should have bought two packets of cornflakes, he could have got his CW2 badge for two tokens and $1.50."

Brit humour Westy, not "being an asshole to someone" do try to keep up old chap:rolleyes:

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[Ray Dahvectac]

I never saw humour as being an asshole to someone

OK, so we have ruled out humour as your reason for posting WC (appropriate initials) - care to enlighten us further?

[ChristopherRobin]

Benny Hill? WC, if you think that's funny then maybe I see the problem here. I bet you liked Happy Days as well.

[SASless]

Westie....relax....salute the Empty Bag concept....even when it is a Windbag....father knows best and all that. Ever notice the sharpish replys one gets when it is the "Home" team that is the object of the banter? Our retort afterwards arrives at ...."OOOOOOH! ATTITUDE!" as they get all grouchy and hurt sounding.

So...go with the flow...Westie....slide that long slender blade between the ribs....they love it actually.

I did the "Army Officer" going to an RAF Officers Mess thread at Arrse....got some very proper, polite, helpful replies....with some very light banner....then admitted the truth...."American Army Warrant Officer" going to an RAF Officers Mess, thanking all for their guidance.... and instantly....all bile and bitter....funny what might have changed between posts.

Any idea what that might have been Chaps?

[Talking Radalt]

I never saw humour as being an asshole to someone
....and by the same token, we never see it as the backbone to military operations. :E

[Rakshasa]

"Any idea what that might have been Chaps?"

You admitted being a "Diet Officer"? :p

[Darth Nigel]

Any idea what that might have been Chaps?
They realized you weren't a real officer?

[SASless]

Ah, Darth...another one that does not get it....we are...as much as the Upper Classes hate it....once the old pen goes to the paper on SecArmy's desk....we get our admission ticket to the Garden of Eden....then a year later upon promotion....we then become commissioned officers as well... all the while being Warrant Officers. Kinda like a marriage between the Orange and Green....in a way.

After a fashion....I think it is a big joke being played....by who and on whom I do not know...but it is fairly comical when one stands back and watches the discussion.

[eko4me]

After a fashion....I think it is a big joke being played....by who and on whom I do not know...but it is fairly comical when one stands back and watches the discussion.

Wonderful comment - I salute you! :)

[Huron Topp]

SASless,
...."American Army Warrant Officer" going to an RAF Officers Mess, thanking all for their guidance.... and instantly....all bile and bitter....funny what might have changed between posts.
think you're being rather disingenuous making this statement. Not one single comment was made about you being a WO. The only pouncing had to do with your story re. the cowboy boots, as I'm sure you're well aware.

As for "Upper Classes", isn't that why WOs are now commissioned in the US Army, because your own upper classes didn't think you were qualified, or some such, to be Officers?

[Darth Nigel]

But how can you be an officer, old chap?

I bet you don't even know the correct spoon to use to force recalcitrant turds out of your arse after days on field rations...

[Jimlad]

Thinking of non entitled personnel using Messes, I was at Whale Island a few years ago when some CCF PO's (i.e. 15yr olds) turned up at the PO's mess on the island and asked for a beer.

They couldn't understand that Cadet PO isn't the same as real PO :D

[effortless]

I have rather enjoyed this thread but I have a question, if I may presume? Why did our colonial cousins feel it necesary to make WOs "officers"?

[Huron Topp]

Darth,

I bet you don't even know the correct spoon to use to force recalcitrant turds out of your arse after days on field rations...

one should know, that to be truly effective, one must use the salad fork...chilled.:ok: Butt, that may be for another thread.:}

[Talking Radalt]

SH would use a sharp stick, obviously. ;)

[Huron Topp]

SH would use a sharp stick, obviously.

Not the pointed stick? Maybe the soft cushion, or comfy chair?:E

[Daedal_oz]

Effortless said,
I have rather enjoyed this thread but I have a question, if I may presume? Why did our colonial cousins feel it necesary to make WOs "officers"?

Isn't this a different paradigm to the one used by those systems derived from the British military?

I have always equated a US Army WO with an equivalent officer rank and treated them accordingly in terms of privelege.

WO1 = 2LT
CW2 = LT
CW3 = CAPT
CW4 = MAJ
CW5 = LTCOL give or take.

And they are, after all, employed for their technical proficiency much the same way that specialist RAF aircrew are employed. (Now there's a thought, why are RAF spec aircrew commissioned? Seems to me that the AAC has got it right.)

Finally, I guess they earned the right to use whatever rank system they wanted to after beating you last time round...

[Wholigan]

To jump back to the original question on this thread, does the above post mean that a major should salute a CW5 in the US? (He asked disingenuously.)
;) :E

[Daedal_oz]

To jump back to the original question on this thread, does the above post mean that a major should salute a CW5 in the US? (He asked disingenuously.)

That wasn't the original question. But my disingenuous response would be no more than one should salute an air force officer. :p

[Huron Topp]

Cheeky, disingenuous buggers!;)

[SASless]

Now Huron....you got American Warrant Officers figgered out finally....we are all of that!:ok:

W-1 equals a 2nd Lt in pay (roughly)
CW2 a 1st LT
CW3 a Capt
CW4 a Major
CW5 a LT Col

but all are junior to 2nd Lt's in rank....but Woe be the 2nd Lt that really believes that! Let him tangle with a 4 or 5....and see who comes up short on hind end.

[BEagle]

WO1 = brand new grunt
CW2 = grunt
CW3 = old grunt
CW4 = bitter old grunt
CW5 = rich, senile old grunt

And the only salute any of the low class bug.gers deserve is an extended middle finger....

:p

[West Coast]

"And the only salute any of the low class bug.gers deserve is an extended middle finger...."

I'll bet you got your ass kicked a lot at the O club didn't you?

He may be senile, but he ain't rich on what Uncle Sam pays.

[SASless]

Beags....we thrive on that kind of treatment....and usually double it in kind....thus two upraised fingers in salute! Where's the beer?:ok:

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

"Where's the beer"

Is that the warm real beer that we drink over here or the ice cold pish you serve up over there...................lets see you spin a credible counter to that :p

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[SASless]

When it comes to beer....I am definitely on the side of the British. However since you guys have gotten central heating....room temperature beer is way too warm. I still prefer a bit of frost on the outside of the glass.

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

Which is precisely why you guys will never master the art of making beer:p

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[BEagle]

Why is Budweiser like making love in a canoe?
































Both are f*****g close to water!

[SASless]

Beags dear chap,

Why is it I see Budweiser sold in the stores and behind the bars in pubs now? It could not be found years ago anywhere here.

Not that I would drink it here or at home!

[Rakshasa]

Cause Bud is brewed over here these days. I'll stick to Becks. TVM.

[Argus]

Beages old chap, right on point when you compare septic WOs to grunts.

Septics just can't understand the difference between a Master Ice Cream Dispenser First Class with "go faster" stripes on his/her sleeves for swimming 20 metres, plus a chest full of medals for giving blood at the Red Cross transfusion service, being a specialist in what he/she does; and a commissioned officer in a command role who is required to lead, inspire and manage others; and be accountable for same

Enough trouble trying to find commissioned officers with the "right stuff", let alone septic WOs with delusions of grandeur that stop short of actually taking charge of anything. Bit like some contemporary US politicians and federal public servants, I suppose.

[Maple 01]

a commissioned officer in a command role who is required to lead, inspire and manage others; and be accountable for same

Sorry, did we have any of those? Inspire? Lead? Be acountable? Naaah, give me an old style WO

[SASless]

The Green Eyed Monster arises methinks....or someone who tangled with one of those old time warrants.

[ORAC]

Officers get saluted within their own service and by other national services because the regulations say so. Officers from services of other nations get saluted either as a curtesy or because of an official agreement between the nations. In particular, within NATO there is an agreement and this includes the definition of equivalent ranks. Within this agreement Warrant officers are ranked below officers and above enlisted servicemen.

The US may have decided to give some of their WOs commissioned officer status, but they have not had an amendment made to the NATO equivalent rank structure and, since NATO only works with unanimous agreement, I wouldn't hold my breath.

So said WO will not get saluted because he is not entitled to be saluted.

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

Oh mighty ORAC,

Straight shootin tex and stating the "bleedin" obvious...........wonder if our bumpkin cousins will understand it:E

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[Argus]

SASless

No green eyed monster I'm afraid. Just reinforcing the point that, when it comes to comparisons outside of the US, septic WOs are further down the food chain than commissioned officers.

[tablet_eraser]

WC
When you learn where to put apostrophes (Kennedy's what?), I'll learn to accept your views on the British Monarchy. The Queen's punctuation being better than yours, I'm content with her commission. Her Majesty's powers are in fact somewhat extensive, and she can indeed exercise them - in the 70s she appointed Harold Wilson as PM when he had a majority of -30 because of a hung Parliament. Seems a little more efficient than battling an election result through the courts, only for a bench of judges to select the candidate with an outright minority... := Her general role (advise, warn and counsel) has certainly been exercised on a number of occasions, with varying degrees of success. She is the Commander in Chief, so that the British Armed Forces are by definition apolitical. Sir Winston Churchill had to revise some pretty shaky decisions when the Chiefs of the Imperial General Staff said that they'd wait to hear the King order them to do things personally...

As others have said: WARRANT officers hold a warrant from the Secretary of State for Defence here in Blighty, and from the Secretary of the Army/Navy/Air Force in the US. They are, therefore, by definition, clearly, undeniably, NOT commissioned, a commission being a document from the Head of State (HM or Bush) appointing someone as an officer. Ergo, Warrant Officers will not be saluted by British personnel of any rank, at any time, for any reason.

It's not intended as a slight to our US cousins, it's a simple matter of precedence and protocol. I'd suggest that if you're really that bothered about someone not saluting you, you're likely to be a total pain in the arse to work with.

An apocryphal story tells of a Flight Lieutenant (pronounced "leff-tenant", SASless ;) ) who was being "mentored" (bollocked) by a WO. The WO concluded the "meeting" (arse-chewing) with the comment, "... and never, EVER confuse your rank with my seniority!"

T_E

[West Coast]

I trust your little queens spelling and punctuation's skills are better than yours as well. I ran your post through the ole spell checker, you aint got nuthin to crow about pal.
As I've said before, royalty is like a placebo pill. Makes you feel good but doesn't do a damn thing for you.

[HAL Pilot]

To quote tablet_eraser: "As others have said: WARRANT officers hold a warrant from the Secretary of State for Defence here in Blighty, and from the Secretary of the Army/Navy/Air Force in the US. They are, therefore, by definition, clearly, undeniably, NOT commissioned, a commission being a document from the Head of State (HM or Bush) appointing someone as an officer. Ergo, Warrant Officers will not be saluted by British personnel of any rank, at any time, for any reason."

As has been said by other from the U.S. military, except for WO1, U.S. Warrent Officers (WO2 - WO5) ARE commissioned by a Head of State, receiving their commission from the President and having it confirmed by the Senate. Only WO1 receives a Warrant from a service secretary.

This whole conversation reeks of British snobiness. Just like calling your enlisted "other ranks" like they are insignificant.

You expect us to recognize and respect your armed forces' customs and structure. You should respect ours in return. Should an enlisted U.S. soldier not salute a British Pilot Officer because he has a funny rank? (In the U.S. soldiers opinion.) After all, both the Pilot Officer and the U.S. Warrant Officer (WO2 - WO5) are commissioned by Heads of State.

[The Helpful Stacker]

Should an enlisted U.S. soldier not salute a British Pilot Officer because he has a funny rank? (In the U.S. soldiers opinion).

No. The enlisted US soldier should salute the Pilot Officer because of the Plt Off NATO rank of OF-1, the equivalent of a 2nd Lieutenant.

As has been said, a US military WO wouldn't usually receive a salute from a British (or indeed any other NATO) enlisted/OR because they are classed as below commissioned, as shown here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ranks_and_insignia_of_NATO_Armies_Officers).

BTW it should be noted that it is also NATO who prescribe the use of OR to mean Other/Enlisted Rank and not just the UK.

[SASless]

Folks,

I don't expect to be saluted....never did....that was the beauty of being an old time Warrant Officer...and not being in any way associated with the US Army...I don't give a **** who gets saluted or not. If you read back over the posts....you will see that is my position and the only time I suggested British Enlisted and Non-Commissioned officers should salute American Army Warrant Officers was out of a sense of military courtesy and discipline. What you Teabags think about "Sceptic" ranks matters not a wit.

I would suggest if you cannot accept the fact the American Warrant Officer is a full fledged card carrying member of the Officers Mess then you are not the sharpest knife in the drawer.

I can assure you that doubt the fact that Warrants are officers....and thus entitled to the fullest extent of military courtesy....that if one of my Warrants was refused entrance to your Officers Mess....I would take my aircraft and crew and piss off to the nearest pub and let your OC explain to his chain of command why that happened.

Being an old time Warrant Officer....we learned not to suffer fools well. Anyone that persists in suggesting they would not extend and demand the proper military courtesy as a serving military officer is an idiot.

Skip the banter chaps...banter is simple...one line jesting....and I fear some of you are past that point.

[Vortex_Generator]

"US UK

CW1 WO1 - 2/LT
CW2 Lt
CW3 Capt
CW4 Major"

So does a US Captain salute a CW4 then?

[SASless]

Vortex....read the post...it clearly said equivalent in pay and allowances....not rank. CW5's are junior in rank to 2nd Lt's.

[wg13_dummy]

full fledged card carrying member of the Officers Mess

Do you not mean the Officers Club. Quite a bit of difference. :ok:

[SASless]

ZH...you finally got part of it right....junior in rank to all other officers....the newest 2nd Lt outranks a CW5 in our rank structure.

But do not confuse Rank with horsepower....I can assure you a CW5 has a lot more horsepower than a 2nd Lt.

[Daedal_oz]

Is it now appropriate to ask where and how midshipmen fit into all of this?

They are members of the Officers Mess but are not commissioned. I believe they hold officer status but exist at the bottom of the ladder and are not saluted by the ranks/ratings.

As I've said before, I accord US WO1 - CW5 the respect that goes with their experience and time in service (less saluting). Surely this is a courtesy that is easily offered by true professionals. I have no problems with the US deciding that they should be members of the 'officer class'. The use of the CW rank allows a more recognisable differentiation between those of us who have completed generalist commissioning courses and those who have greater responsibilities and experience in technical fields, such as specialist aircrew.

This is the way it is. How hard is it to get on with life and worry about more pressing matters?

[Maple 01]

Did anyone say 'Master Aircrew?' salute one of them by accident and see what happens......Why would a WO want to be saluted? They *KNOW* they are the top of the tree

[Argus]

SASless

What you teabags think about "Sceptic" ranks matters not a wit
Actually it's "septic" - abbreviated rhyming slang: septic tank = yank.
that if one of my warrants was refused entry to your Officers Mess ... I would take my aircraft and crew and piss off to the nearest pub and let your OC explain to his chain of command why that happened
If Uncle Sam wants to pay hard earned US taxpayer funds for your crew to stay at the local pub, then that's a matter for Uncle Sam.

Not sure about the aircraft though - unless it's the Presidential Suite.

Others may offer a view on the size of everything in Texas: I can't possibly comment.

[HAL Pilot]

ZH875 - from the same website (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warrant_Officer#Insignia). It clearly states a U.S. WO2 to WO5 is a commissioned officer while a U.K. Warrant Officer is a senior non-commissioned officer. And for the record, I'm a retired Commander, U.S. Navy - not a Warrant Officer. I just believe it is proper to respect a persons position and rank, regardless if it is different from your services.


A warrant officer (WO) or a chief warrant officer (CWO) is a member of a military organization, with a rank subordinate to other commissioned officers and senior to noncommissioned officers. In some countries, a warrant officer is effectively a senior noncommissioned officer.

--- Let read that again, "subordinate to other commissioned officers." It does say subordinate to commissioned officers, it says subordinate to other commissioned officers. But in the U.K. where a Warrant Officer is a senior non-commissioned officer. Just because your Warrants are not commissioned and deserving of the respect and entitlement does not mean ours are not.

United Kingdom
In the British armed forces, a warrant officer is effectively a senior non-commissioned officer, although he or she holds the Queen's (or King's) warrant. Warrant officers are not saluted, but are usually addressed by their juniors as Sir or Ma'am.


United States
In the United States military, a warrant officer was originally, and strictly, a highly skilled, single-track specialty officer. But as many chief warrant officers assume positions as officer in charge or department head.....

Upon the initial appointment to WO1 a warrant is given by the secretary of the service, and upon promotion to chief warrant officer (CW2 and above) they are commissioned by the President of the United States, take the same oath and receive the same commission and charges as commissioned officers, thus deriving their authority from the same source.

Chief warrant officers can and do command detachments, units, activities, and vessels as well as lead, coach, train, and counsel subordinates. ...

Even when commissioned, they remain specialists, in contrast to commissioned officers who are generalists, though[i] many chief warrant officers fill lieutenant and lieutenant commander billets throughout the US Navy....

....In the U.S. Army and U.S. Marines, CWO's may fill positions normally held by more senior officers as well. ....

Each branch of the military "runs" the "Chief Warrant Officer" program in slightly different ways. Little is known or published concerning the chief warrant officer, and consequently they are often misunderstood by the unindoctrinated.

A chief warrant officer's benefits and privileges are roughly comparable to those of a junior commissioned officer, and should be at or above those of senior enlisted. A WO1 is paid roughly the same as an O-1 (second lieutenant or ensign), a CW2 the roughly same as a 0-2 (first lieutenant), and so forth....

--- If you read the whole web page, you will see that U.K. Warrant Officers are the equivalent of U.S. First Sargents and Sargent Majors. Our Warrant Officers rank above these, and have responsibilities and authority above them.

--- It was also interesting to note that the British Navy used to have Warrant Officers that were considered officers and not senior NCOs, and that these are compared to U. S. Warrant Officers:-

The history of warrant rates in the Royal Navy is complicated, but can be viewed in two parts:
warrant officers who were definitely officers rather than ratings, similar to those in U.S. forces, up to the 1950s;
warrant officers who were senior NCOs, like those in the British Army, from the 1970s on.

[Argus]

HAL Pilot

What you say is absolutely correct - in its application within the US.

But, as ORAC ably points out on page 8:
… within NATO, there is an agreement, and this includes the definition of equivalent ranks. Within this agreement, Warrant Officers are ranked below officers and above enlisted servicemen (sic).

The US may have decided to give some of their WOs commissioned officer status, but they have not had an amendment made to the NATO equivalent rank structure and, since NATO only works with unanimous agreement…

So, with great respect, and with no disrespect to our gallant US allies, when in Rome …

[HAL Pilot]

HAL Pilot
What you say is absolutely correct - in its application within the US.

But, as ORAC ably points out on page 8:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
… within NATO, there is an agreement, and this includes the definition of equivalent ranks. Within this agreement, Warrant Officers are ranked below officers and above enlisted servicemen (sic).

The US may have decided to give some of their WOs commissioned officer status, but they have not had an amendment made to the NATO equivalent rank structure and, since NATO only works with unanimous agreement…
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



So, with great respect, and with no disrespect to our gallant US allies, when in Rome … Give me a reference, an official web page or something that says this.

While on the Joint Staff, I worked with my counterparts at SHAPE frequently. We had a USMC WO5 in my office. He was always treated as an officer on all our TDYs to SHAPE HQ. Never was he not called "Sir", denied officer billeting or mess, and he was always saluted. You can bet your ass (or arse) that he would have corrected any enlisted from any service who did not. That's just the way the USMC is...

He also had the same Geneva Convention category on his ID card as I did. I forget what it was, but I was a Lieutenant Commander at the time.

In my P-3 squadron we also had a TACCO that was a CWO4. He was treated as an officer by the Austrialians at RAAF Pearce and by the Brit Nimrod guys at RAF Kinloss.

So the only "Romans" that I've ever seen have a problem with U.S. Warrant Officers are the British "Romans" on this board.

[Argus]

HAL Pilot

Try a Google search. You might be surprised at what you find.

And who, pray arethe Austrialians at RAAF Pearce. Some offshoot from the local populace perchance?

I don't the accuracy of your account of your own experiences. But I suspect the genuflections extended to your WOs were due more to good manners on the part of your hosts, rather than to any formal obligations or requirements.

[ORAC]

HAL Pilot,

Ad hoc arrangements, pragmatism and curtesy apply in many places, that does not make them mandatory. During the cold war I would have saluted a Russian general, but it would have been as a mark of respect, not because he was entitled. But, as stated here (http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery;jsessionid=28c3ybh52299i?method=4&dsid=2222&dekey=British+and+U.S.+military+ranks+compared&gwp=8&curtab=2222_1&sbid=lc01a&linktext=British%20and%20U.S.%20military%20ranks%20compared)

"The US rank is held by single track career specialists (ranking between Enlisted Ranks and 2nd Lieutenant) and have no NATO equivalent.

There are many individuals whose grade gives them the right to use the officers mess. There are also many who hold positions of authority and have serving personnel on their staff. That does not mean that anyone salutes them. I think what is annoying many here is someone indignantly demanding as a right something extended as a curtesy. What normally happens in such circumstances is the curtesy is withdrawn.

[dirtygc]

At the end of the day I would salute anyone holding a commision. I am saluting the commision and not the person, and therefore, I will not be 'throwing one up' for any WO 1.

I would address them as Sir though, thats only if I've recognised their rank insignia, I apologies if I don't.

[timex]

West Coast

As I've said before, royalty is like a placebo pill. Makes you feel good but doesn't do a damn thing for you.

Actually mate in 1982 HRH Prince Andrew was flying Operational sorties in the south Atlantic. Prince Charles was an Operational pilot on Junglie Sea kings for quite a while too.

HAL PILOT

Sadly it was your WO who came on here "fishing" perhaps, having then created this debate he has now vanished after losing his teddy.

Speaking as a non-commissioned chap, I've never been asked to salute any US warrants in over 30 yrs..

[SASless]

I dare say they have never met up with a USMC Lance Corporal even....that kind of Espirit starts early with the Marines. I would not wish to be the fool that crosses a USMC CW5...they do not fire single shots across the bow....they go for full broadsides of double shot.;)

[Point0Five]

Perspective is a wonderful thing:

"Most people think that warrant officers came after regular officers," said Barlow. "That's not true. Back in 13th century England, the British had a need for sea-going officers. They found the men with the most experience in their particular job and gave them a warrant, commissioning them as officers. Regular officers are descended from those beginnings.

http://www.usmc.mil/marinelink/mcn2000.nsf/ac95bc775efc34c685256ab50049d458/0d25958d6929e5e185256fee00611739?OpenDocument&Highlight=2,ranks

[Argus]

Ah SASless
USMC CW5s ... go for full broadsides with double shots

Reminds me of a bon mot.

US Marine battalion on parade to witness change of CO.
New CO inspects first rank.
Stops in front of a marine. Strikes said marine across top of head with fist.
“Does that hurt”? asks the CO.
“No suh,” replies the Marine.
“Why not”? asks the CO.
“Cos I’m a US marine suh”.
Goddam.
CO continues inspection – stops in front of a marine in the second rank. Strikes said marine across the chest with open hand.
“Does that hurt”? asks the CO.
“No suh,” replies the Marine.
“Why not”? asks the CO.
“Cos I’m a US marine suh”.
Goddam and holy snapping ducksh*t.
CO continues inspection – stops in front of a marine in the rear rank. Observes erect male member emanating from between said marine’s legs. Strikes said erect member and says:
“Does that hurt”?
“No suh,” replies the Marine.
“Why not”? asks the CO.
Cos it’s the WOs behind me suh”.

[BEagle]

"I dare say they have never met up with a USMC Lance Corporal even....that kind of Espirit starts early with the Marines. I would not wish to be the fool that crosses a USMC CW5...they do not fire single shots across the bow....they go for full broadsides of double shot."

SASless, notwithstanding the undoubted USMC esprit de corps, portraying you brother Jugheads as the stereotypical John Wayne type of marine of gung-ho movie notoriety is surely doing them a disservice in today's military environment.

The need is now for intelligent, disciplined troops rather than 'six-gun heroes'.

Hoo-ah? Or whatever that odd noise is that you lot make.:p

PS - Royal (not 'British') Navy Warrant Officers were indeed accorded compliments:

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a341/nw969/Internet/SALUTES.jpg

[SASless]

Beags,

The correct term is "Jar Head"...not jug head....we are talking US Marines here...kinda like the term "Bootneck" used for the Royal Marines....another take charge group of gentlemen.

....and Beags...you definitely do not understand the fighting spirit of the US Marines if you confuse it with John Wayne Hollywood film characters. But then....unless you have had the good fortune to be around those troops...one does not have the basis to comment I would suggest.

I would suggest you read up on the military campaign in Iraq...and you will no doubt take on a better appreciation for all the young men and women that fought in that...US and British. We should take our hats off to them...they all did us old farts proud and are still doing so.

Beags...don't waver now...if it was good enough for Wellington and Nelson...it must still be good.

[New_W01]

Cripes. This has gone further than I expected!

More milleage than the M1!

[BEagle]

Jug- and Jarhead are both nicknames which have been used throughout history, although Jarhead is perhaps more common nowadays if you say so. For recalcitrant mules and stubborn Marines. But not a term of derision, more one of affection - for something/someone which digs in and won't be shifted!

It is not me who confuses the stereotypical USMC Hollywood image with reality; however, your posts may lead others to believe that the Republic movie company's portrait of your Corps is perhaps correct.

We had a USMC back-seater on the F4 training staff when I did the course. One day there was some formal inspection due and his colleagues asked him "Are you going to be turning up in that khaki outfit with all the medals and the Boy Scout hat - or that Glenn Miller $hit?" Brave words, but Ed took it in good humour! The 'Glenn Miller $hit' (Officer's Dress Uniform) won the day.

And the USMC folk who invited us to the embassy in Dakar were nothing like G/Sgt Thomas Highway or his movie clones, I'm glad to say!

[Mmmmnice]

Arriving late on this thread my first feeeling is that I should avoid any kind of US Warrant Officer in case either of us cause the other great offence by an incorrect exchange of compliments.
On reflection, I shall leave the rest of you to this fascinating debate and continue to use common sense in dealing with my allies. I would like to say that all the CW5s I have met around the US Army helo force have been charming gemtlemen and completely free of any inferiority complex brought on by encounters with confused Brits!

[ZH875]

Still trying to work out the purpose of the CW, is it because most enlisted men is a sergeant of some discription, and the officers are no good, they have to bring in a demigod to control everything.

If most armed forces do not need them, then please explain why the US army needs them.

[effortless]

Jug- and Jarhead are both nicknames which have been used throughout history

We used to call the Cnut Heads when we came accross them. They were always quite good about it - unless they had loads of mates with them.:}
http://www.security-forums.com/forum/images/avatars/14067643424048ec12a6053.gif

[HAL Pilot]

Argus wrote:
HAL Pilot ,
Try a Google search. You might be surprised at what you find.
I did. In fact I looked on the NATO website itself. Every website quoted in this thread is from a non-NATO or non-official source.

ORAC wrote:
HAL Pilot,

Ad hoc arrangements, pragmatism and curtesy apply in many places, that does not make them mandatory. During the cold war I would have saluted a Russian general, but it would have been as a mark of respect, not because he was entitled. But, as stated here

"The US rank is held by single track career specialists (ranking between Enlisted Ranks and 2nd Lieutenant) and have no NATO equivalent.
Again, a non-official source. Of course you left out the beginning of the sentence in the paragraph you quoted from: "A Warrant Officer in UK service is a senior non-commissioned rank not comparable to the various grades of Warrant Officer in the US,..."

Again, my contention is that a commissioned officer is a commissioned officer and deserves the respect of that appointment even if your service has no equivalent. Having similiar names does not make U.S. and U.K. Warrant Officers equivalent. Giving respect where it is due and acknowledging differences in service regulations, customs and cultures is a sign of professionalism. Burying your head in the sand because something is different from your own is not.

[West Coast]

Beag's

Next time you think you know about the USMC, let me know.

I wouldn't want to piss off any CWO, that said I out ranked them. They were the resident experts in their field and a tremendous source of guidance, leadership and practical knowledge. Mean sumbitches, some of 'em.

[ORAC]

Again, my contention is that a commissioned officer is a commissioned officer and deserves the respect of that appointment even if your service has no equivalent. Having similiar names does not make U.S. and U.K. Warrant Officers equivalent. Giving respect where it is due and acknowledging differences in service regulations, customs and cultures is a sign of professionalism. Burying your head in the sand because something is different from your own is not.

Please state where it is laid down that the members of of the armed service of one nation must pay compliments to the officers of an other nation. Any officlal source will do. In the absence of such it is a curtesy.

[HAL Pilot]

ZH875 said: Still trying to work out the purpose of the CW, is it because most enlisted men is a sergeant of some discription, and the officers are no good, they have to bring in a demigod to control everything.

If most armed forces do not need them, then please explain why the US army needs them.
Still bringing constructive arguements to the table I see.

The answer to that question has been decided by people far above either one of us in the military food chain. Just because the all knowing such as yourself do not see the need does not mean the need is not there. Warrant Officers seemed to be working just fine within the U.S. military. Sorry it does not match your British sense of what is proper and right.

ORAC said:Please state where it is laid down that the members of of the armed service of one nation must pay compliments to the officers of an other nation. Any officlal source will do. In the absence of such it is a curtesy. So it is now your arguement that any saluting or other signs of respect are not needed at all between members of different countries. As a U.S. Navy Commander I can just ignore a British Navy Admiral?

[ORAC]

No argument, just taking it back to basics and repeating your own question from the last page, namely, Give me a reference, an official web page or something that says this. Goose for the gander and all that. One presumes one can find an official source?

If not, I repeat that saluting members of the armed forces of other nations is a curtesy or as laid down in an official agreement. If one exists, please cite it.

As an aside, would you expect a US naval rating to salute a UK coastguard officer? If not, why not, if so why? Would you expect a UK naval rating to salute a US coastguard officer, If not, why not, if so why?

As an a side:

"It is a widely-believed myth that in the United States military all personnel are required to initiate a salute to a Medal of Honor recipient, regardless of rank. Nothing in United States military regulations relates specifically to the Medal of Honor except for its order of precedence on the uniform. Custom, however, does dictate that a general should salute a private if the private has the Medal of Honor. In the United Kingdom, a similar fiction attaches to holders of the Victoria Cross."

I would salute, either, as a mark of respect, not as an obligation.....

[HAL Pilot]

ORAC wrote:
No argument, just taking it back to basics and repeating your own question from the last page, namely, Give me a reference, an official web page or something that says this. Goose for the gander and all that. One presumes one can find an official source?

If not, I repeat that saluting members of the armed forces of other nations is a curtesy or as laid down in an official agreement. If one exists, please cite it.

As an aside, would you expect a US naval rating to salute a UK coastguard officer? If not, why not, if so why? Would you expect a UK naval rating to salute a US coastguard officer, If not, why not, if so why?

As I am retired I do not have official resources available. I originally asked for an official reference because everybody was citing an unofficial website. I too cited that unofficial website to make my rebuttal.

I do know it is taught at all levels of initial training in the U.S. that you are to provide proper military courtesy to all officers senior to you regardless of service or country. This does not mean you obey their orders if they are not part of your chain of command. This means addressing them respectfully and rendering salutes. I had this training at basic as an Army Private and at OCS as a Navy officer candidate.

As far as your Coast Guard question - if the Coast Guard is considered one of the armed forces of the U.K., than yes a U.S. enlisted sailor would salute him. And yes, I would expect a Royal Navy sailor to salute a U.S. Coast Guard officer as he is a member of the U.S. armed forces.

The are 7 branches of service within the U.S. Armed Forces: Army, Navy, Air Force, Marines, Coast Guard, NOAA (National Oceanic & Atmospheric Administration) and the USPHS (U.S. Public Health Service). NOAA & USPHS are unique in that they only have commissioned officers. They all hold military and Geneva Convention identification cards. In war, NOAA would provide the weather services such as the stations in Greenland in WW2. The USPHS would obviously care for the wounded. In you ever wondered why the Surgeon General of the U.S. always appears in an Admiral's uniform, this is why. He is an Admiral in the USPHS. Both the USPHS and NOAA use naval ranks and uniforms. In fact, unless you were to recognize the different crest on their uniform hat, you would never know that they were not Navy.

[SASless]

ORAC,

There is a world of difference between Tradition and Myth. Saluting Medal of Honor or Victoria Cross holders suggests respect for valor amongst military persons.

That is what this whole thread is really about....respect between military persons and tradition....none of which "requires" a written mandate somewhere in a manual or archive of orders. There are some things one does....simply because it is the done thing....and to do otherwise is not acceptable.

Shame some folks have trouble accepting those simple unwritten parts of a code of conduct that binds our individual military forces together and makes being a Soldier, Airman, Sailor,or Marine such an important source of strength in times of need.

I don't know about you but everytime I have been in the presence of Medal of Honor recipients I have seen only grace and humility and a man that is quick to suggest he was only doing his duty and that he was wearing the Medal for others who were also justly deserving.

It would be no surprise to me that holders of the Victoria Cross are exactly the same.

Seems we could all learn something from them.

[BEagle]

Wet Coat, I hereby appoint you my sexual adviser....




























...when I want your f*****g advice, I'll ask for it!

:p

[MajorMadMax]

Not to curtail all the fun everyone is having with this thread , but I just finished a three-year assignment at SHAPE and can tell you what the "normal practice" is in regard to saluting. Saluting is done amongst ones own country...and that's about it. Saluting between individuals of other countries does happen...as a matter of fact, the Brits and Germans were always very kind to extend that courtesy to me and I respectfully did the same in return; but as far as I know it wasn't required. If someone from another country saluted a US warrant officer, it was done out of respect, not requirement.

With 26 nations it would be near impossible to remember the rank structure for every country...

Cheers! M2

[SASless]

Westie,

You seemed to have tinkled in Beag's tea cup.....oh, my dear! Whatever shall we do?

Remember Beags....we come from a race of people that tried to make salt water tea...one cannot expect too much from us.:uhoh:

[huge forkbender]

Great thread.

So many bees...so many bonnets...

but I wonder, could someone enlighten me..

During my officer training at RAF cranwell, I was told that I should salute when entering a WO's office. (Don't remember who told me, I wasn't usually awake during CESR!) This I did throughout 21 years of service.

Had I misunderstood or was I correct in saluting a non-commisioned rank?

Huge

[Wwyvern]

Many years ago, a Flight Sergeant, RAF, was walking past an RAF Sqn Ldr, who was absorbed in looking somewhere else. Slinging a smart salute, the FS called out "I'm saluting you, sir." To which the Sqn Ldr replied, "And so you should, Flight Sergeant, So you should."

I remember, as an ATC cadet, a bus conductor being saluted by a passing squad. Scared the hell out of him.

[SirToppamHat]

Hi there Huge

That would explain why they have so much contempt for the rest of us!

IIRC (though I too slept through the CESR lectures (both times!))
the polite thing is to salute when entering another commissioned officer's office, irrespective of rank - this would seem to exclude the WOs (including the t*sser who started this thread). Obviously, in my case whether or not to salute entering the JO's office is a relatively recent question - I err on the side of caution.

I am sure others will have views, and there may even be someone out there who understands what it all means.

As for the Army and RN, I have no doubt they have completely differing (but equally valid) views about this.

The most important thing about all of this is that you are not saluting the individual, but the commission.

Hope all's well with you. Fancy an AVO slot at Scampton?

STH

[BEagle]

SASless - indeed, the salt water tea was one of your earlier attempts at vile and tasteless beverages.

Later came Budweiser and Cold Duck....:yuk:

I will concede, though, that any USMC uniform beats the heck out of the awful 'Thunderbird' uniform jacket we had in the 1970s. Named after a British TV puppet (or rather, 'supermarionette') sci-fi show, not the USAF Aerial Demonstration Team!

I was once wearing the damn thing whilst waiting for someone at Oxford railway station. At least 2 old dears thought I was a railway porter! And no, I didn't get any tips!

[West Coast]

"Wet Coat, I hereby appoint you my sexual adviser...."

Then my first bit of advice is to leave the small farm animals alone from now on.

[dirty_bugger]

I'm still confused.....

are US Warrent Officers Non Commisioned Officers, or Commission Non Commissioned Officers - and should I put on my socks before my shoes?

[diginagain]

d-b - regarding socks; whatever you feel most comfortable with.

Socks over shoes v. good for walking on ice BTW.

Saluting New-WO1? Who cares, he's given up now anyway.

[New_W01]

No. Hes still here. Watching you brits squirm and make yourselves look dumb in front of your cousins.

[frodo_monkey]

Clearly we are all squirming... :yuk:

WOs who get their Warrant (i.e. not a Commission) after so little time are probably about as much use as t*ts on a fish!:}

[SASless]

Seems our new WO has found a new fishing hole....and the suckers are biting up a storm too!

Just proves they are a low and vile lot....US Army Warrant Officers....heheheheheheh!:ok: :ok:

[Twonston Pickle]

No, we are not squirming, we are just gobsmacked that anyone (Brit or Septic) could be so up themselves as to ask such a self-obsessed question. In short, I would not give you (personally, not all WOs) the time of day, let alone a salute! Quite frankly, US WOs will be treated by me in exactly the same way as UK WOs; no salute, due respect to the rank and experience, and they will be called "Mr" by officers.

I too have socialised with a CW3 in the Officers' Mess (not Club!!!!) and have found him to be a thoroughly nice guy. However, I my humble opinion, he is still a WO and should not be there; his membership was only down to the dogged insistence of the US Officers on base. The Officers' Mess is for Officers and (the yanks may be a little suprised) we actually have a WO and SNCOs Mess for (you guessed it) the WOs and SNCOs.

As a little aside, Mr Pickle used to be an "other rank" who once went on a trip to the good 'ole US of A. Upon arrival, and being the first one off the Nimrod, I was suprised (as a Senior Aircraftman) to be addressed by a Sergeant First Class (or so it seemed) as "Sir" and asked if I "would like the trash taken off" although I am junior to her by several ranks!! Apart from telling her that the Aircrew could make their own way off, I was a little taken aback. If you don't understand our ranks, how can we be expected to understand yours?

[SASless]

Two Ton Pickle.....after someone had been told how the system works...one would think an educated person and an Officer could figure it out (even if not both simultaneously).

It is nice to know that you felt a fellow commissioned officer was out of his place by being in your mess.

Did you ever convey that to him and try to be completely honest or were you merely being two faced and ingratiating when you accepted his offer of a drink?



:uhoh:

[BEagle]

"......I was suprised (as a Senior Aircraftman) to be addressed by a Sergeant First Class (or so it seemed) as "Sir"....."

I would imagine that was just the young lady in question being polite and courteous towards newly-arrived guests in her country. A charming gesture.

SASless, in the RAF it is often the 'commissioned ex-rankers' rather than the straight-through baby officers who make the most smoke and noise about their new-found status in life. Real officers treat RAF WOs with the respect their status rightly merits.

[engineer(retard)]

"SASless, in the RAF it is often the 'commissioned ex-rankers' rather than the straight-through baby officers who make the most smoke and noise about their new-found status in life. Real officers treat RAF WOs with the respect their status rightly merits."

Beagle

In my experience that is arse. As a "hairy it took me about 2 years to stop calling WOs sir when in uniform, and I had been a member of Sgts mess so had a bit of time to get used to the first name terms.

However, it does take the green shielders less time, because they usually drop their first bollock within a minute of meeting a WO on station. At this point their ears get pinned so far back that they cannot keep stop their SD hat sliding down to their nose.

Regards

retard

[SASless]

Beags,

The young lady that was so courteous was probably just respecting her elders when Two Ton stepped down from the rear of the bus.

[Michael Edic]

I thought a US sergeant first class was equivalent to a leading aircraftsmen. Or are Sergeants First Class commissioned?
By the way Septics everywhere this is a British tradition (you'll have those in a few centuries) known as sarcasm.
Now who's going to bite?

[SASless]

ME,

One has to have the necessary weapons to engage in a battle of wits....and despite our humble origins...we decline to take advantage of the unarmed.

(That is not Army Warrant Officer Sarcasm by the way.):uhoh:

[wg13_dummy]

ME,

One has to have the necessary weapons to engage in a battle of wits....and despite our humble origins...we decline to take advantage of the unarmed

Careful you dont shoot yourself in the foot then SASless....

[tablet_eraser]

For goodness' sake... this thread seems to have deteriorated from being a bit of banter into a snide, vituperative slanging match. Surely we're all better than this?

SASLess, West Coast, et al... you demand that we respect your rank system, yet you have no appreciation of why we're making our arguments. In HM Armed Forces, if someone hears "Warrant Officer" they will assume - correctly for all but the US - that the individual concerned is a highly-experienced, massively well-respected senior Noncommissioned Officer. NOT a commissioned officer, and certainly not someone with less than 15 years' military experience. This is NOT intended as an insult or a form of disrespect - simply an indication of the fact that nobody has time to learn the nuances of the rank structures of each of our NATO allies. If anything, Warrant Officers as they are perceived by Brits have immense experience, and are generally the most battle-hardened and respected individuals around. Dry your eyes, and understand that we do not disrespect rank. The immediate assumption on meeting a Warrant Officer will be: "Aha - this man clearly knows what the hell he's talking about".

Oh, and West Coast... until you piped up about our Royal Family (all of whom, apart from Prince Edward, have genuine, decorated military experience) no-one had had a go at your system of government. Since your current President's military experience extends to dodging Vietnam, maybe you could find a more convincing argument about why our Royal Family should not command our respect? It will, of course, fall on deaf ears, because I'm sure that all of the British posters here are actually quite proud to serve the Queen. As proud as you are to serve... whomever.

And to my Brit fellows - why are we getting so wound up about this? New WO1 - the clue's in the name - has not toiled as hard as some other Warrant Officers have (I'm thinking 20-odd years' consistent effort and graft) to obtain his rank, by his own admission. He may have earned it, but only as much as I have earned MY rank (now into the 4th year of my commission). What New WO1 hasn't learned is the difference between deference and respect. He can make as many airmen salute him as he wants, but he probably won't earn one iota of respect for it. I think we can agree that on the whole we work very well indeed with our American friends. Why damage that relationship because of the naiveté of a single pompous arse?

[Days Like These]

Hear hear Tablet Eraser! :ok:

[West Coast]

"find a more convincing argument about why our Royal Family should not command our respect?"

Command respect for simply being the royal family?

My amusement is with the concept of having a king/queen, not so much the characters involved. Its my understanding that Andy flew his helo in some sort of picket duty in the Malvinas, looking to soak up an exocet before it hit the ship. Big balls. No bigger however than any other chap from a working class family. Respect is earned, not given simply because of birthright

"all of whom, apart from Prince Edward, have genuine, decorated military experience"

Is that factually correct? What about the lads?


"they will assume - correctly for all but the US - that the individual concerned is a highly-experienced"

Can't speak for the other services, but I'd love to see someone tell a Marine Corps Gunner (combat arms CWO) that.


"He can make as many airmen salute him as he wants, but he probably won't earn one iota of respect for it"

Sort of my point about the royal family.

[wishtobflying]

As someone about to enter the Australian Army, I have to say I've found this thread very enlightening.

Before this I had absolutely nil real understanding of ranks other than where they fit on the "Ranks and Insignia" chart, but now I feel like I've got much more sense of "my place" once I start (I'll be an Officer Cadet for about 18 months, then a 2nd Lt for a while before I even make it to full Lt).

I had an experience recently where I witnessed a very young (21) Lieutenant speaking to a couple of Warrant Officers under his command. He was, I thought, extraordinarily "familiar" with them - he displayed no apparent respect for them or their level of experience in their jobs, and threw in several attempts at humour that missed their mark entirely and were not well received. As he turned away from these two WO's, the look they gave him was one of pure murder. Not exactly high on the "natural leader" qualities, this bloke.

So ... I look forward to NOT being like that guy, and I thank all of you who have contributed to this thread, for several reasons.

First, it helps me understand why Americans have WO pilots - and how they compare to our rank structure. Really, New_WO1, you are a Cadet, pure and simple. Your rank is a training rank, you've said so yourself. To compare your rank with a grizzled veteran of many years service, well what can I say.

Second, it helps me understand our NCO ranks, and gives me a much greater respect for them, for which I thank the UK guys.

New_WO1, go back and read your leadership manual, it's FM 22-100, I've got a copy if you can't find yours. You'll find a whole bunch of great info in there that it seems you've missed.

Knuckle down to your study, finish your training, and get on with the job. Be good at it - that's your main responsibility right now. Nobody even cares who you are until you're a useful member of a unit, so stop being so self-centred and focus on learning how to fly.

Cheers, mate.

[West Coast]

Aussie equiv of WO1

[wishtobflying]

Sorry, was that a question, or an insult?

[West Coast]

An observation.

[HAL Pilot]

Wishtobflying said:
New_WO1, you are a Cadet, pure and simple. Your rank is a training rank, you've said so yourself. To compare your rank with a grizzled veteran of many years service, well what can I say.

Knuckle down to your study, finish your training, and get on with the job. Be good at it - that's your main responsibility right now. Nobody even cares who you are until you're a useful member of a unit, so stop being so self-centred and focus on learning how to fly. You could not be more wrong. You DO NOT have an understanding of the U.S. Warrant Officer system.

A WO1 is NOT a Cadet. While it is true U.S. Army WO1 pilot maybe straight out of Warrant Officer Candidate School and flight training with less than 2 years in the Army, there are also many of non-pilot WO1s who have years of service. I know a couple of Special Forces Army WO1s who would take great anger at being compared to a Cadet. Other Army WO specialities require a minimum length of service and a minimum enlisted rank from an applicant. I am not positive, but I think it is Sargent (E-5) and 5 yerars of service.

I did not see any posts from New_WO1 saying he was still in training. Army Warrant Officer candidates that are enlisted for the WOFT (Warrant Officer Flight Training) program do not receive their WO1 Warrents until completion of flight training and earning their wings. So New_WO1 has at least 4 months of basic training and 1 year of flight training as a "Cadet" prior to receiving his Warrant as a WO1. If he is a WO1 pilot, he is a winged aviator in an operational flying billet. Further, to have been in the U.K. and been in the position of asking about how he was treated, he has to have completed all training in his specific airframe - at least another 6 months of duty. So he probably has somewhere around 2 years of service. He IS NOT a Cadet. If fact, he probably already has been to or is very near going to Iraq or Afganistan since helo pilots are currently in big demand there.

In the USN and USMC, Warrent Officers start at WO2 and they ARE COMMISSIONED OFFICERS. To apply, they must be at least a E-7 (Chief Petty Officer or Gunnery Sargent) and that will have taken at least 10 years of service to achieve.

New_WO1, go back and read your leadership manual, it's FM 22-100, I've got a copy if you can't find yours. You'll find a whole bunch of great info in there that it seems you've missed. I find it extremely humorous to see a "wanna-be" (since you have not even started your military service yet) lecturing a serving WO on leadership. It reminds me of your story of the 2 WOs and the young Lieutenant. You are already on the road to being like that guy.

[SASless]

Westie...

They are correct about the decorated service....Lord God man have you seen the Gongs they wear on ceremonial occasions...Patton himself could have designed the uniform for all one would know. I appreciate the fact some of the Royals have served and done so quite honorably but one can only guess how the Officer Reports went..."excellent worker when cornered"...."troops follow him if only to see what else he can **** up"....I am sure there has not been a promotion missed based upon performance and secondary duties amongst the Royal Serving Family.

I would imagine being a Royal in a flying squadron with yer Mum the sitting Queen might be tough duty.....as compared to being an F-102 pilot with yer Daddy a Senator. Seems to me Mum carries a bit more stick than a mere Senator or am I wrong here? Either one would get preferential treatment.

Think not....ask old Randy about his visit to the USA...when he bonked a member of the PSD escorting him around Washington....she even gave him a unique gift of a PSD id pin that if even "lost" innocently by a male colleague generated a full fledged investigation. Now...understand....I would have done the same....bonking the bird....but the issue is nothing was said to either party because of who he was....Mum's youngun.

At the same time Westie....we have to remember that we do not choose which family we are born into....and we cannot all be farmer's sons thus I really have sympathy for the Royals....having to assume all that burden by sheer birthright. Terrible burden that must be....keeping up appearances and all.

Let's just hope none of them run for political office....now would that not be a situation made for pprune.

[BEagle]

Some light relief:


Charles and Camilla are apparently a bit flummoxed by the whole marriage thing; it's reported that on their wedding night the following took place:

As Camilla was making last-minute preparations to walk down the aisle, she found that her shoes were missing. She was forced to borrow her sister's, which were a bit on the small side.

When the day's festivities were finally over, Charles and Camilla retired to their room, right next door to the Queen's and Prince Phillip's. Because of the type of construction done following the Windsor Castle fire, the adjoining walls were made of plasterboard.

As soon as Charles and Camilla were inside their room, Camilla flopped on the bed and said,

"Darling, please get these shoes off. My feet are killing me."

The ever-obedient Prince of Wales attacked the right shoe with vigour, but it was stuck fast.

"Harder!" Camilla yelled. "Harder!"

"I'm trying, darling!" The Prince yelled back. "It's just so bloody tight!"

"Come on! Give it all you've got!"

There was a big groan from the Prince, and then Camilla exclaimed,

"There! That's it! Oh that feels good! Oh that feels SO good!"

In the bedroom next door, the Queen turned to Prince Phillip and said,

"See? I told you, with a face like that she was still a virgin."

Back in the bridal suite, Charles was trying to pry off the left shoe.

"Oh, my God, darling! This one's even tighter!" exclaimed the heir to the throne.

At which Prince Phillip turned to the Queen and said,

"That's my boy.. Once a Navy man, always a Navy man!"

[ORAC]

Oh come now SASless, you have your royal families - Kennedys, Gores´, Bushs´etc, you´re just a bit more coy about it. And at least our don´t actually get to run the country....... :E

[Argus]

From time immemorial, it's been a time honoured pastime where the Windsor writ runs large, to tease ever so gently, our cousins who dwell in the home of the brave and the land of the free.

And since time immemorial, (or certainly after the British burnt the White House in August 1814), the cousins usually rise to the occasion.

Sometimes our cousins tend to irritation because they lack the ability not to not take themselves seriously and laugh at themselves. They confuse robust argument with personal opprobrium. Some have a tendency to try and inflict American life, times, values and US military customs and practice on the rest of us. Our traditional response, refined over the years, and in countless encounters, has been to extract the urine or remove the snake’s hiss. And so it is in this thread.

Having said that, I fear we reach new heights of hypocrisy in attempting to compare a 14 (yes fourteen) month warrant (note the spelling please HAL Pilot ) officer straight out of US Army flight training, occupying a very junior position in a flying unit, with a seasoned veteran warrant officer of long service who has earned both his warrant (note the spelling again, please HAL Pilot ) and the respect of his comrades and colleagues.

In the Royal Australian (note the spelling please, HAL Pilot) Air Force, newly graduated pilots posted to flying units are known as “bog rats” or “boggies”– a derisory term that encapsulates their general worth in the flying environment. With the greatest of respect, there’s no evidence on this thread to suggest that an “instant” US Army WO1 of similar flying experience in a comparable flying environment is of any greater value on a squadron than his/her “boggie” equivalent. Yet learned US contributors persist in comparing the US equivalent of a “boggie” to a long serving US, UK or Australian veteran warrant officer. May I use the Crocodile Dundee vernacular and say: “Mate, if you believe that, I can surely interest you in some Sydney real estate that joins the North and South shore, that’s on the market for a song”!

Also, only the Americans can have “commissioned warrant officer”. Surely one either holds a warrant or a commission – but not both validly together. If it’s the latter, then one becomes a commissioned officer from the granting of the commission. If it’s the former, then one is truly a warrant officer and entitled to all the respect and privileges that go with that ancient rank and title.

Seems like too much Duff beer to me!

[MadsDad]

Wouldn't a British (or Australian) Warrant Officer who was then, after officer training (or battlefield promotion presumably), commisioned be a “commissioned warrant officer”?

[SASless]

Argus,

You too fail to catch the catch...kinda like Catch 22 here. The catch is CW2 through CW5 are commissioned. Despite the rank being called "Warrant Officer", some Nimrod of a senior Commissioned Officer decided against both logic and tradition to make certain grades of Warrant Officers commissioned officers. That decision like so many the Commissioned Officers that infest senior headquarters make....wreaks havoc upon those that have to carry out the decisions. Never minding upsetting the old apple cart in the process, mind you.

Our newbie Warrant Officer pilots are usually known as WoJugs, Wobbly One's and other less polite names within their initial operational units thus we share much the same appreciation of their various flying abilities as do your Army. In some units, WO-1's and 2nd Lt's are required to go about in pairs...with the view that between two of them, they might not get into so much trouble as left to their own devices.

Senior Warrant officers are tasked both officially and unofficially to mentor the youngsters, even if they happen to be old leathery farts that have moved up from the enlisted ranks, into the fine art of "being" a Warrant Officer. There is far more to "being" a Warrant Officer than merely pinning on the rank insignia....which we can all agree upon.

There has been much whinging by the Chattering Classes here about American Warrants not being officers...not being commissioned....and such. That ignores facts.

They are officers. After reaching CW2...they are commissioned officers. While in training they are Warrant Officer Candidates with an equivalent rank of Specialist Fifth Class (pay grade E-5 or actual pay grade held if higher) which is equal to the lowest rank of Sargeant.

[An Teallach]

Good one, Beags.

I can't believe this blindingly obvious troll has managed to kick off the fastest growing thread on pprune for months.

Anyway, recycled joke warning RED.

Wedding night -

Charles: Would you like the Bridal Suite?

Camilla: No, that's alright darling. I'll just hang on to your ears.

[wishtobflying]

A WO1 is NOT a Cadet. While it is true U.S. Army WO1 pilot maybe straight out of Warrant Officer Candidate School and flight training with less than 2 years in the Army ... (etc)

I'll concede that point, if we're comparing training timelines with rank structure, and now you've explained the US angle, a fresh USA WO1 pilot would be like when we're promoted to 2nd Lt on being awarded our wings. As far as him being in training, perhaps I read that in his military.com posts, or his ARRSE posts - but he's said it somewhere.

Sticking with the training timelines idea, an Australian Army 2nd Lt with his/her wings is still useless operationally, and still has another six months minimum before being posted to a unit. It's considered to still be a training rank (for AAAvn), and even when posted we are still under a form of probation, only flying as copilots until considered experienced enough to take full command.

I find it extremely humorous to see a "wanna-be" (since you have not even started your military service yet) lecturing a serving WO on leadership. It reminds me of your story of the 2 WOs and the young Lieutenant. You are already on the road to being like that guy.

I would never be so stupid, after reading this thread, to interact with one of our WO1's the way I'd feel comfortable interacting with one of your WO1's (we have two WO ranks, and our WO1 is higher than our WO2). That is one reason why this thread has been so helpful.

Another reason is that it has taught me not to assume anything about a person's experience based on rank. Obvious maybe to those of you in the system, but to someone like me, it's something to tuck away in the "Remember This Later" box.

My comments on leadership are simply echoing what others have also said about this guy. I've recently studied your FM 22-100 in my own time, before I even knew I was going to get in, and I feel that New_WO1 may find it useful to re-read it. No lecture, just suggesting he may have forgotten some valuable ideas that are covered in it.

[Argus]

SASless

My lawyer's response is to ask how instruments of commissions can be drawn that are inconsistent with an existing and valid warrant, without first cancelling the warrant.

My cynic's response (and in the vein of extracting da urina) is to note that on your facts, the successors of President Merkin Muffley, GEN. 'Buck' Turgidson, BRIG Jack D. Ripper, COL 'Bat' Guano and Dr Strangelove still loiter with intent around various higher US Headquarters. To quote the immortal words of MAJ T.J."King" Kong as he straddles the bomb: "Hee haugh!

Years ago, if memory serves me correctly, the Royal Navy commissioned senior sailors as subject expects in, for example, gunnery. They were called “Commissioned Gunners” etc and wore a thin stripe on their sleeves. To my knowledge, they were NOT warrant officers, but commissioned officers.

With the greatest of respect, it's either one or the other.

[SASless]

errrrr....that is "Yee Haw!" of cowboy fame.:ok:

[diginagain]

Isn't it about time that the old folks were given their tranqs and cocoa. Arrse put this issue to bed a loong time ago.:ok:

[An Teallach]

SASless.

"Yee Haa!!" Surely? And before anyone asks, I'm not old enough to have got in to see cowboy flicks with a jam jar. Beags?

Argus

"Hee Haugh!", spelt "Hee Haw" up here has the meaning of 'the square root of bu@@er all', which is, I dare say, what most of us Brits (and Aussies) give for New WO1's 'problem'.

Jeez, if you have a small willie, why not just go and buy a Porsche? Makes more sense than joining up and risking getting you ass shot off just so you can bimble around the world demanding genuflections from all and sundry. :bored:

[SASless]

Joseph Heller served in the same Army....this link will put this into perspective.

http://www.generationterrorists.com/quotes/catch-22.shtml
:E

[Michael Edic]

Mads Dad,
As far as I am aware if they were British (not sure of teh protocol for our Antipodean cousins) if they received a battlefield commission they would become commissioned officers and thus would assume teh rank of 2nd Lt or equivalent
Regards

[Argus]

diginagain

What an absolute delight to read your measured, well-researched and thoughtful contribution to the locus of the debate.

I look forward with much pleasure to your next post - in which you will undoubtedly shame us all when you focus your penetrating intellect to the matters at hand.


SASless

Agree. Joseph Heller, Alan Alda and the other authors of MASH managed to get the right perspective on all of this.

An Teallach

I stand corrected on the spelling. But your interpretation is the point that Slim Pickens and Stanley Kubrick were trying to make in the Strangelove movie.

[diginagain]

.. may I thank you for your contributions to what has become a most entertaining and enlightening thread. I feel confident that the originator has found the answer to the question.

Do please take a moment to glance at your PM.

Regards etc.:ok:

[timex]

Just a thought, IF these guys are so good (and some obviously are) why don't you just give them a full commission? They are highly qualified or specialists so they should be capable.

On another point is it not very difficult for the guys themselves, not quite SNCO's and not Offrs either?

[ORAC]

IIRC, one of the reasons was the "up or out" system in operation in the US forces. Officers who are passed over twice for promotion have to leave shortly after the second rejection. This leads to a lack of a cadre of experience personnel. WOs, however, passed over twice may continue to serve and have a 30 year career. Think of it as their equivalent of Spec aircrew. :hmm:

[SASless]

Orac,

You might want to confirm that statement....when I was in the Army it was up or out for all ranks....two passovers and you were gone.

The bad part of that system is one has to please his rater or suffer a less than stellar evaluation and you are dead in the water for all future promotions. That is a system that breeds "Yes Men" and not war fighters who think on their feet and take initiative.

There is a thread here now about just that sort of thing in the British military regarding secondary duties.

[ORAC]

The Warrant Officer Management Act (WOMA) of 1991 initiated sweeping changes in warrant officer personnel management. The WOMA authorized a CW5 grade with specific pay and allowances, adopted a single Active Duty List System, and eliminated the dual temporary and permanent promotion system. All future promotions were to be permanent, using standardized procedures and tenure for Regular Army (RA) personnel and active duty reservists. As in the commissioned officer system, all warrant officers the Army had passed over twice for promotion would retire or be separated with separation pay.

Which shows how old and out of the loop I am. :(

Did find this though: WO News, July 2005.

Tenure AC CW4s: Current policy requires that AC CW4s who are 2-time non-selects for CW5 be separated, unless they are selected for continuation (SELCON), and then they can only serve to 24 years WO service (or 30 years total service, whichever occurs first). A legislative change proposal has been submitted that removes the separation and SELCON requirement for CW4s. Additionally a change has been submitted to remove the 30 years total service limit and soldiers would only be limited by total warrant officer service, which would still be capped at 24 years of WO service for CW4s and below. A legislative change package has been submitted to change the law, and the Assistant Secretary of the Army (Manpower & Reserve Affairs) has been asked to suspend the separation policy (which he may do in wartime) until the law is changed.

War tends to have that sort of effect...

[dirty_bugger]

A question for the US Warrant Officers....

when you applied to join the Forces, did you want to be an officer? If yes - you obviously thought you had two routes, one being the normal (dare I say real) route of becoming a Lieutenant and one of becoming a WO.

Why on earth if you wanted to be an officer did you choose WO? Whats the difference?

On the question of sulating, I'm only an RN Lt what level of WO should I ignore?

[SASless]

DB,

Ignore all of them....unless they are saluting you...as you are senior to all of them...all American Warrant Officers are junior to all other commissioned officers...the WO-1 is junior to every other officer in the US Armed Forces....he is the base man on the Totem Pole. Amongst Warrant Officers....there is no saluting of other Warrants by Warrants....beyond maybe during military drill, parades, or other traditional situations...reporting to a unit commander for example.

[MajorMadMax]

DB

Basically, Warrants are allowed to be specialists in their particular field, whereas commissioned officers are expected to grow in breadth (both mentally and physically :} ), e.g. Warrants that fly helos can expect to do so for their entire career, where a commissioned officer might get two tours under their belt before they are doomed to do staff jobs and the like.

I think this thread typifies why the USAF got rid of the Warrant Officer program years ago...

As for saluting within the US military structure, the enlisted salute the Warrants, and the Warrants salute the commissioned officer corps. As for other nations, from my experience it has been a matter of courtesy and not a requirement.

Cheers! M2

[West Coast]

My gawd, ORAC got something wrong. The end is near now, I sense it.

[HAL Pilot]

when you applied to join the Forces, did you want to be an officer? If yes - you obviously thought you had two routes, one being the normal (dare I say real) route of becoming a Lieutenant and one of becoming a WO. Except for Army pilots, to be a Warrant Officer you have to be active duty enlisted and accepted into the program. In the Navy and Marines, you have to be at least an E-7 which means you probably have at least 10 years of service. In the Army, I think you have to be an E-5 which is at least 6 years of service.

As far as two routes, most of the Warrant Officers did not have the requirements to go straight to the officer corp upon initially joining the military. This is because the U.S. requires all "normal" officers to have four year college degrees (with a few exceptions). Many who subsequently earned their degrees while serving in an enlisted rank were than too old to apply for OCS and commissioning as a "normal" officer. Further, many who may still meet all age and education requirements to be a "normal" officer perfer the Warrant route as with their years of service, they will get more respect and responsibility as a WO for the same pay. It's a matter of pride to them.

The exception is the Army's Warrant Officer Flight Training program. The Army decided that it wanted the majority of its pilots to be specialists (pilots first). So the specialist pilots are Warrant Officers while the "normal" officers who will be company/battalion/etc. commanders are officers first and pilots second. The Army's philosphy was developed in the early Viet Nam era when they needed massive amounts of helo pilots for combat there. To this day, the Army still has more pilots than any of the other services.

Tthe USN, USMC and USAF have the philosphy of "officer first, pilot second". All USN, USMC and USAF pilots compete and are eligible to be squadron or wing commanders. Plus in the USN, senior pilots also command ships. This is why you will not see Warrant Officer pilots in those services.


BTW Argus - if there are any spelling mistakes, be sure you point them out. I realize they contribute significantly to the debate and information in this thread. After all, battles have been lost, Armies have been defeated and Warrant Officers have been killed by these significant errors.

[Argus]

HALPilot

Usually, I don’t give a flying fygge about the occasional 'typo' in this medium.

But, of the two words you misspelt, one was the noun and adjective of my domicile; and the other was the instrument that is the subject of this thread.

In my experience, those who dwell in the home of the brave and the land of the free, usually take umbrage at other, lesser mortals who misspell any word associated with their homeland.

And so it is with us folk who dwell under Capricorn, particularly when said umbrage is caused by those who are quick to chide others for the same offence.

Sorry old son. Like the better pilots, air traffickers and lawyers I know, I just can't help myself sometimes when it comes to insisting on accuracy.

[SASless]

Turn left Five degrees....now turn right four degrees....cuz you cannot make a one degree turn!:uhoh:

[New_W01]

I'm sorry if my questions have upset people, but they have highlighted a lack of understanding about the US warrant ranks and how they relate to British warrant ranks. People from this forum are interested in this as they are asking questions on other forums. I guess its just the brits that have a chip on their shoulders about it. The Dutch and other equivilent forces understand. Why not you guys?

[Twonston Pickle]

Lack of Understanding.........?


I think the lack of understanding is on your part; you fail to see why this is such an emotive subject. You can be pretty sure that an RAF WO with 30 years service would be thoroughly pissed off at being forced by some jumped up scrote (read New WO1) to salute them after being in only 30 minutes.

Furthermore, you also do not appear to understand our rank structure; this is a two way thing and why should we brits always defer to you septics? Accept that you have not yet earned any respect and, dare I suggest, are even going downwards in many peoples estimation (including a few of your embarrased colleagues)

[SASless]

Two Ton Pickle,

Lets see what you really said....

"
I think the lack of understanding is on your part; you fail to see why this is such an emotive subject."

What is emotive about another military organizations rank structure?

"You can be pretty sure that an RAF WO with 30 years service would be thoroughly pissed off at being forced by some jumped up scrote (read New WO1) to salute them after being in only 30 minutes."

So some young popinjay Subaltern (or what ever you call them straight out of whatever training school the newest and youngest junior officer attends)....does not get the same reaction from a 30 year service Warrant Officer? Or does that reaction in your mind only exist between British Warrant Officers and American Warrant officers of the grade WO-1?


Furthermore, you also do not appear to understand our rank structure; this is a two way thing and why should we brits always defer to you septics? Accept that you have not yet earned any respect and, dare I suggest, are even going downwards in many peoples estimation (including a few of your embarrased colleagues)"

As if you gain any respect or credibility by the use of words like "Septics" when referring to your fellow officers. (Assuming you are even in the military of some sort).


As to not understanding rank structure....it is plain as your most prominent upturned probiscous that it is you that understands naught about rank structure and military courtesy.

One cannot remove officer status from an officer merely because you don't like the fact he is an officer in his military and your military does not have a similar rank.


If you don't care for the Americans....maybe you can find some counseling that will help. I am sure an American Army Warrant Officer would be glad to assist you in that endeavour.

Better yet....find yerself a Marine and run your sea shanty by him....see if he has an answer you can understand.
:ok:

[Twonston Pickle]

The emotiveness of the subject is not the rank issue per se but the insistance of WO1 that he should be saluted by all and sundry.

Why bite on the septic comment? Reel this one in...........

As for some young subaltern etc... The point being that in the British military, they will have earned their commission (not respect) and the salute from the WO is for the Queen's commission and not the subaltern.

As for assuming being in the military or not; the answer is yes. Why don't I like US forces; a pistol pointed at the head of my driver in Iraq (by a US Sgt) despite being in clearly badged uniform got my goat a little but the .50 cal pointed and cocked at my (stopped by the US) convoy really pissed me off, despite identifying myself as a brit officer (in the Brit AOR even!) This might go someway to explain why I think the yanks have little to no respect for their Brit cousins even leaving aside New WO1s poor attitude (and yours clearly). As slight aside, I even witnessed US truck drivers competing to see how many Iraqi kids they could knock down by throwing water bottles at them; you may now apreciate why my estimation and respect for you and your countrymen has gone down.

As for claiming snobbery; I am an ex-airman now commissioned with no university degree (must have been commissioned upon my ability maybe). Isn't it you yanks who insist that an officer (2lt and above) has a university education rather than proven experience and ability? Who's the snob now?

Why would a marine have an answer that I can understand? Would he be able to grunt it in more than one syllable (waits for bite...)

[Thud_and_Blunder]

Hi SASless,

Not having read the full thread on ARRSE, I don't know how they've decided to bring this to completion. I don't think some of the Brit participants here are doing a very good job of explaining the problem they have with this issue.

To the Brit forces, the 2 rank structures - Commission and Warrant - are completely different. In the same way as you can be human and EITHER male OR female, you can be in the military and be EITHER commissioned OR noncommissioned (eg Warrant). For another organisation to come along and say that one can be both is very like saying that a human can be male AND female. OK, so Eddie Izzard and Bloodaxe may blur the boundaries a bit, but that's the problem Brits have with this idea.

If the US want other forces to accept their strange idea - we're not talking some radical new technology (like tanks vs horses, rifles vs muskets) which will inevitably change the way armed forces do their business, just some paper-pushers way of getting around a perceived admin problem - why not try changing the terminology? Instead of using an expression which means something very specific to the people who invented the language, pick something different which conveys the unique yet allegedly-commissioned nature of these individuals. If you continue to use confusing, mutually-incompatible terms then you can expect others to carry on as normal - ie not saluting Warrants.

You might also want to get the terminology squared away with whoever runs things in Geneva before you ever get involved with people who might take members of your forces as POWs (or PWs, as I believe you call them). If you want them to be treated as commissioned officers, you'd better ensure their status is universally accepted. Otherwise it'll be ditch-digging and manual labour for your lads and lasses...

Chip on (both) shoulders? Nah - that'll be pips/crowns or thin, straight stripes...

Enjoyable reading, ta.

[SASless]

Two Ton....

Does only a Queen's Commisson rate a salute?

What is emotive about an officer suggesting he rates a salute from enlisted (Warrant, NCO, and other ranks per British definition), (NCO and enlisted per US)? Military tradition has all non-officers saluting all officers...thus no emotion involved...it is the same in our services just as it is in yours.

From your hostility....seems a cocked and unlocked Ma Deuce might not have been such a bad idea....reckon a friendly wave and Howdy Do would have worked? Somehow I think maybe there is more to that story than is being told somehow. Last time I checked we were on the same side....most of us anyway.

So now we have it....a university degree does not count....only prior service and a specialized skill or recognized ability does. Will someone repeat the definition of a US Military Warrant Officer to Two Ton for me....maybe he will accept from a different source.

But then in his view....he would not be an officer....but a Warrant Officer....or did I lose the bubble on his argument?

T an B....I too have said (having been the old fashioned kind of Warrant Officer....the kind that merely wanted to fly and not be a career enhancing staff puke) that the "commissioning" of Warrant Officers was the one of the goofiest things I had ever heard of.

Why do we have to change our terminology....the concept is simple...the US Military identifies some ranks as being officers and other ranks as not being officers. What is complicated about that?

It seems when others try to apply their own definitions it gets confusing to them....not the American Military. What was the sayings....when in Rome....salute the Centurion or something like that?

:E

[West Coast]

You limeys are soo easy to bait. WO1 may not command your respect but he is commanding your time.
Fight on old chaps, buck up, stiff upper lip. god save the queen and all that stuff.

[Twonston Pickle]

West Coast,

Point taken; let's agree to disagree, respect the fact that we have different rank systems and move on.

SASless,

Having re-read my post, I realise I was wrong to tar you all with the same brush due to the ignorant actions of a few individuals (I did try a wave and that's what attracted the pointing of the weapon in the first place). Agreed that we are all on the same side.

Apologies to all for getting so emotive.

Regards

TP

[TBSG]

Wow. This thread has really wound some people up. As someone (Churchill?) once said, we really are two nations separated by a common language. Given that the US military strength is 2M against our 200k (on a good day), it should hardly be surprising that we have slightly different systems. So why the big drama over ranks? Even more so when the equivalent of the US Army CW aviator is the RAF Spec Aircrew - it's just that the US Army recognises that you don't need to be a fully commissioned officer to fly a helicopter. So who really has it wrong? Both are employed as pilots first, officers second. All that matters is that each does the job they are paid to do in the context of their own military system.

[ZH875]

Even more so when the equivalent of the US Army CW aviator is the RAF Spec Aircrew Considering the CW is in the ARMY, perhaps the equivalent of the CW in the UK Armed Forces is a SSGT/WO2 pilot in the AAC. Hardly commisioned old boy.:p

[wg13_dummy]

in the UK Armed Forces is a SSGT/WO2 pilot in the AAC. Hardly commisioned old boy

And the SSGT/WOII has done approx 16-20 years service. Hardly a comparison old boy. :p

[SASless]

Two Ton,

You were no more emotive than I was to learn that my sacred warrant rank had become commissioned....but then I am old fashioned and more akin to the dinosaur. In my warrant days....even though offered a direct commission to 1st Lt or Captain....most of us stuck a single up raised digit into the air.:ok:

[havoc]

Most interesting thread brought about by a wobbly-one. Guessing and not making excuses for him, but as pointed, the salute from allies (for the rank) may be the least of his worries. Confusing times for him/her (as applicable).

Hopefully a more senior Warrant will take him under their wing and set him straight on priorities.

Several years ago and I think it has been indoctrinated at Mother Rucker that Warrants must salute each other. This was brought upon by those in my opinion thought the Warrants did not act like Officers (respect for a more senior rank). Additionally they worked to take away the squashed bug.

The Army was very clear that you received your rank before your wings so officer first, aviator second. More often then not pointed out by graduates of the school on the Hudson.

Most Army Warrants usually become Warrants so that they can fly, cheap labor, but they do not care. Let the RLO or Zeros (O1 and up) deal with the daily BS of running the unit.

Case in point, Bosnia 2000, 10th Mountain flew 5 UH-60s to "support" the Brits for a 3 week stint. Upon our arrival the British Major asked who was in charge and the 2LT Platoon leader stepped forward and introduced himself. The Major then asked who he needed to see to about doing flight operations for him. Everyone pointed to me, a CW3 at the time. The LT was p-off but the Major told him he needed the technical expert input.

One of the best 3 week deployments, despite not being able to stay for the Page 3 girls visit. The Brit Major even tried to have us stay longer.

And yes we did dine with the Officers. Managed to only insult our guests once by asking why the Battle of Watertown (home of the 10th Mountain) was not on their fine placemates. It was pointed out that only victories were depicted.

Back to the orginal thread (sort of), visiting a US Air Force base the security police stopped and asked if they need to salute me because they did not recoginize the rank. Yes but no offense taken and they saluted and went on their way.

Get over the salute issue and do things that the reflects postively on all Warrants. If you are in England seek out SASLess to listen about his days as a Warrant. You never realize how dumb W1s are until your a W2.

Havoc
CW3, USA Retired

[John Eacott]

In his second post, page one, New_WO1 says:

As a WO1, I'm not a Commissioned Officer but I am an appointed Officer (by Warrant) and a member of the O Club. On promotion to CW2, I will receive a Commission, so I'll be a Commissioned Warrant Officer

So by his own admission, he's not (yet) commissioned. Midshipmen would have got laughed out of the docks taking his attitude, IMHO :rolleyes: Followed by a digit or two as a salute :p

[Sunfish]

Rolling on the floor laughing about this thread!

New WO1 - you should know that the British will always work themselves into a lather over the finest, most miniscule, shades of class distinction.

Now lets see a thread about whether a Naval Commander is equivalent to an Army ???? and a ?????? in the Airforce?

Cheers Mate!

ex Lt. Sunfish.

[SASless]

Now Sunfish....one knows the Army is the Senior service thus Army officers have seniority over their Navy brethern if both are of same rank and seniority date and have the same name.

:uhoh:

[ORAC]

Over here the Navy is the Senior Service. (http://www.raf.mod.uk/organisation/comm.html) You really shouldn´t try to apply your own definition, SASless. :E

[honiton]

A few thoughts:

RN and RM Warrant Officers up until 1949 were classified as Officers and were saluted. They were appointed by Warrant and had their own WOs messes. There were also Chief Warrant Officers who held commissions. In 1949, the RN and RM WOs were all commissioned as 'Branch Officers' and became members of the Officers Mess/ Wardroom. The Branch Officer rank was abolished in 1957.

And the Gurkha Regiments in the British Army have officers who rank between a British WO1 and 2nd Lieutenant. These are the Queens Gurkha Officers (QGOs)

So it shouldn't be too difficult for those in the corridors of power to communicate the official policy on how to treat US Warrant Officers.

[ORAC]

RN WO History (http://www.godfreydykes.info/THE%20ROYAL%20NAVY%20WARRANT%20OFFICER%20PART%20THREE.htm) One of the 'burning' issues of the last quarter of the 19th century was the question about the status of the warrant officer. - and at the beginning of the 21st it would seem :hmm:

[SASless]

ORAC,

We are not "Over Here" in your military....in our military the Army is Senior and the Navy is the junior service and as it should be too I might add.:E

[ORAC]

So we´re agreed, you do things your way, we´ll do ours our way. Mind telling your WO1...... :ok:

[lasernigel]

Better yet....find yerself a Marine and run your sea shanty by him....see if he has an answer you can understand.

Thought this would provide an insight to the U.S. forces.

New Enlistment Oaths
U.S. Air Force Oath of Enlistment

I, Zoomie, swear to sign away 4 years of my useless life to the United States Air Force because I'm too smart for the Army and because the Marines frighten me. I swear to sit behind a desk and take credit for the work done by others more dedicated than me who take their job seriously. I also swear not to do any form of real exercise, but promise to defend our bike riding test as a valid form of exercise.
I swear to uphold and defend the Constitution of the United States, even though I believe myself to be above that. I promise to walk around calling everyone by their first name because I know I'm not really in the military and I find it amusing to annoy the other services. I will have a better quality of life than all those around me and will at all times be sure to make them aware of that fact.
After completion of my "Basic Training," I will be a lean, mean, donut-eating, lazy-boy sitting, civilian-wearing-blue-clothes,
chairborne Ranger. I will believe I am superior to all others and will make an effort to clean the knife before stabbing the next person in the back with it. I will do no work (unless someone is watching me and it makes me look good), will annoy those around me, and will go home early every day.
I consent to never getting promoted (EVER) and understand that all those whom I made fun of yesterday will probably outrank me tomorrow.
So help me God.

U.S. Army Oath of Enlistment
I, Rambo, swear to sign away 4 years of my mediocre life to the United States Army because I couldn't score high enough on the ASVAB to get into the Air Force, because I'm not tough enough for the Marines, and the Navy won't take me because I can't swim.
I will wear camouflage every day and tuck my trousers in my boots because I can't figure out how to use blousing straps. I promise to wear my uniform 24 hours a day even when I have a date. I will continue to tell myself that I am a fierce killing machine because my Drill Sergeant told me I am, despite the fact that the only action I will ever see is a court-martial for sexual harassment.
I acknowledge the fact that I will make E-8 in my first year of service, and vow to maintain that it is because I scored perfect on my PT test. After completion of my sexual...er...I mean Boot Camp, I will attend a different Army school once every other month and return knowing less than I did when I left. On my first trip home after Boot Camp, I will walk around like I am cool and propose to my 9th grade sweetheart.I will make my wife stay home because if I let her out she might leave me for a smarter Air Force guy or a better looking Marine. Should she leave me twelve times, I will continue to take her back. While at work, I will maintain a look of knowledge while getting absolutely nothing accomplished. I will arrive at work every day at 1000 hrs because of morning PT and leave every day at 1300 to report back to the "company."
I understand that I will undergo no training whatsoever that will help me get a job upon separation, and will end up working in construction with my friends from high school. I will brag to everyone about the Army giving me $30,000 for college, but will be unable to use it because I can't pass a placement exam.
So help me God.

U.S. Navy Oath of Enlistment

I, Top Gun, in lieu of going to prison, swear to sign away 4 years of my life to the United States Navy because I want to hang out with Marines without actually having to BE one of them, because I thought the Air Force was too "corporate," and because I thought, "hey, I like to swim...why not?" I promise to wear clothing that went out of style in 1976 and to have my name stenciled on the butt of every pair of pants I own. I understand that I will be mistaken for the Good Humor man during the summer, and for Waffen SS during the winter.
I will strive to use a different language than the rest of the English-speaking world, using worlds like "deck, bulkhead, cover, and
head" instead of "floor, wall, hat, and toilet." I will take great pride in the fact that all Navy acronyms, rank and insignia, and
everything else for that matter, are completely different from the other services and make absolutely no sense whatsoever. I will
muster (whatever that is) at 0700 hrs every morning unless I am buddy-buddy with the Chief, in which case I will show up around 0930 hours.
I vow to hone my coffee cup handling skills to the point that I can stand up in a kayak being tossed around in a typhoon, and still not spill a drop. I consent to being promoted and subsequently busted at least twice per fiscal year. I realize that, once selected for Chief, I am required to submit myself to the sick, and quite possibly illegal, whims of my new-found "colleagues."
So help me Neptune.

U.S. Marine Corps Oath of Enlistment
I, state your name, swear... uuhhhh... high-and-tight...
cammies... uhh... ugh... Air Force women... OORAH!
So help me Corps.

ex SNCO British Army.Would salute the Queen's commision and all
officers of other forces.But never a Warrant Officer. :ok:

[tablet_eraser]

Sunfish - you total arse. Class distinction has the square root of f**k all to do with this, and I get quite pissed off when people claim that because I'm a British Officer I must, therefore, be a snob and a member of the middle or ruling classes. Bollocks. I come from a deprived and poor background. Get your facts straight before you post.

[ZH875]

in our military the Army is Senior and the Navy is the junior service and as it should be too I might add.

Might I add that our Royal Navy is older than your :mad: country.

When your army has a bit of history, then we may listen, until then, keep taking the "GW Bush is great pills":yuk:

[honiton]

ZH875

So should we apply the traditions of the Senior Service who regarded their WOs as officers until 1949 to the current Warrant Officers in the US armed forces? If we did, we would treat US WOs as officers and salute them.

[Widger]

The only time you salute on a ship, is when you are up in front of the Captain. "Salute....Ooooorfffff Caaaaaaps!"

If you receive a salute in the army/marines you are likely to get a 7.62mm round straight through your helmet shortly after.

Oh and by the way, it is useless talking to most Spams about NATO, because if they are Pacific Fleet etc, they don't have a clue what you are on about!

[Clockwork Mouse]

For God's sake, it's dead simple. If it moves, salute it. If it doesn't, paint it white.

[SASless]

ZH....what pray tell does the age of your Navy have to do with the topic of discussion?

[Widger]

SASless,

It has a lot to do with it. 1000 years of Naval history means WE are right YOU are wrong.


:ok: :ok: :ok: ;) ;)

[BEagle]

But, to be fair, we didn't need to spend most of our military time chasing redskins around the plains....

Gen Custer at Little Big Horn: "Hmm, bugger. There are rather a lot of them, aren't there chaps..."

We needed a navy to keep out various invaders rather more than we did an army to subjugate our natives - so our navy was the senior service. Whereas the US was once actually quite keen on letting people in by sea, but needed an army first and foremost to fight its way west to the Pacific.

[Rakshasa]

New WO1 - you should know that the British will always work themselves into a lather over the finest, most miniscule, shades of class distinction.

And you can always count on a JAFA to have a chip on his shoulder about class. :yuk:

Now lets see a thread about whether a Naval Commander is equivalent to an Army ???? and a ?????? in the Airforce?

A Naval Commander...? Who'd be equivalent of a Wing Commander or a Lt. Col.? They're all O4s, so there's nothing to debate... cept maybe which kind of O4 smells funnier. :E

[Avtrician]

After 22 Yrs RAAF, a WO would be addressed as Sir but never saluted, woe betied the person that did. Same with the Army, but never did and still cant work out the Navy rank structure until they are Commisioned.

[New_WO1]

An interesting topic.

I hope you Brits now know that US WOs are not the same as WOs elsewhere.

[BEagle]

My perception is that you are probably correct with your assumption, New_WO1!

Have a nice day!

But do remember, old bean, that our Aussie chums do not take normally take very kindly to being referred to as 'Brits'....

[ZH875]

I hope you Brits now know that US WOs are not the same as WOs elsewhere.You are correct there, ours wouldn't ask such dumb questions!.

[lasernigel]

A lieutenant was out walking one day, and came upon a little boy, playing with a pile of s**t."Son, what are you doing?" asked the lieutenant."I'm building an NCO," said the boy.The lieutenant, thinking this was quite funny, returned with his captain, and asked the same question. Again, the boy replied that he was building an NCO.The captain, also thinking it was funny, went back to the company area, and brought a sergeant out. Again the question was asked, and the reply was the same.The sergeant then asked the boy why he was building an NCO.The boy replied "Because I don't have enough s**t to make an officer."

Of course apologies to all who hold the Queen's commission.:ok:

[SASless]

ZH...

Excuse me but yer need to get over it....really!

The bait fell quite placidly into the glassy smooth alpine lake just at sunrise when there was not a whisper of a breeze....not even a ripple marked its landing...until....WHOOSH! From the icy depths charged a lurker to take the bait!

Good on yer WO-1!:ok:

[recce41]

Hello All
The British/ANZACs are not the only ones that have WOs. Here in Canada a WO is the same. For a Warrant is not a Snr NCO, he is a WARRANT. Given a Goverment Generals Warrant and not a Royal Commission. When we have US soldiers come up and stay, US WOs stay in the WOs/Sgts shacks and eat in mess.
The Marines try the Officer thing here, the Base Commander and Base RSM refused they stay in the Officers shacks. The only ones that are addressed as "SIR" are Master Warants and Chief Warrants.
This is like our Master Cpls. They are equal to Snr NCOs (Jr Sgts) in some countries, but but stay in the Jr NCO shacks.
Here's a LIL thing I dug up.

The Warrant Officer

"God made Warrant Officers to give the junior enlisted NCO someone to worship, the senior NCO someone to envy, the junior officer someone to tolerate, and the senior officer someone to respect."


I am a Armour Recce WO regular force, 25 yrs in and still going.

[Avtrician]

We Ozzies definitely dont like being called Brits cos were not.

New_WO1, perhaps you can listen to the wisdom voiced in this forum, and accept that in countries other than the US a Warrant Officer doesnt get saluted (as has been stated several times because a warrant is not a Commision), and in some cases they get some what peeved if they are. Remember, that in most cases a Warrant officer has earned his rank, and the respect that goes with it. A Commisioned Officer may get a salute, but not neccesarily the respect. A person who demands respect will rarely receive it.

As for saluting, this is only done when wearing a hat (the one saluting that is) Though there are times when in public that saluting is not done.

[wessex19]

As a former Naval Officer in the Royal Australian Navy, I would like to say two things, Firstly of all my dealings with allied forces, nevr was it more apparent of such a distinctive "A" and "B" team in standards as it was with the Americans. The "A" teams would be nieve of other military force customs but the "B" teams, WOW!!! Would make Dad's Army look like they have just completed the SAS' Carter course!!! New_WO1, from my experience US Serviceman have little or no knowledge of allied force rank structure, and generally knowledge of what happens outside the shores of the USA!!! As American Serviceman, they just reflect the culture of the USA, The world starts on the East Coast and ends on the West Coast!! An example of "A" and "B" teams would be, "A" teams being Arleigh Burke Class, "B" teams Oliver Hazzard Perry.
Secondly, whats the attraction with American Football???

[Point0Five]

One of things I aways find amusing about discussions like this is that they always yield comments such as:

Remember, that in most cases a Warrant officer has earned his rank, and the respect that goes with it. A Commisioned Officer may get a salute, but not neccesarily the respect. A person who demands respect will rarely receive it.

In this instance it seems that a Warrant Officer is being portrayed as the person demanding respect, on account of having earned it. Doesn't really make sense now, does it? :hmm:

In a similar vein, I wonder who it was that coined the following phrase:

"God made Warrant Officers to give the junior enlisted NCO someone to worship, the senior NCO someone to envy, the junior officer someone to tolerate, and the senior officer someone to respect."

A Warrant Officer perhaps? All seems a bit self serving from the group who normally scream the loudest when a perceived slight to their status has occured. :cool:

[SASless]

Wessex,

It appears from posts to this thread that a few non-Americans have not concept of the American rank structure just as most of my countrymen have no concept of British class structure. Where do the Aussie's fall into the class ranks now....still a servant to the Crown?

[honiton]

SASless

Australia is an independent sovereign nation. The link to the crown likely to change in the future.

recce41

I understand the Canadian Forces have three warrant ranks:

WO (Nato OR7) (equivalent to a British Staff Sergeant)
Master WO (Nato OR8) (equivalent to a British WO2)
Chief WO (Nato OR9) (equivalent to a British WO1)

Plenty of scope to confuse our American allies there, particularly with the CWO rank!

[ORAC]

I think SASless is, to quote PG Wodehouse, whilst not disgruntled, is not exactly gruntled. ;)

[recce41]

honiton
Yes, In 1968 we got rid of the Commonwealth system a lil. This was from Minister of Defence at that time (68) who in 1944 was in the Air Force during basic training. He was force to the Inf due to shortages. He then had to do Army basic again. So in 68, he unifided us so every one had to do the same training, boy it sucked, we are getting away from it now. But it hurt for a long time. Airforce and navy wearing green, Army trades being closed, etc.
But we in Canada understand the US system better than anyone, we have exchanges all the time. But it with the WO rank, it is the problem, for as you know the commonwealth countries have the WOs/Sgts mess.
And some don't like to stay in our mess. But some love it, due to we are all older, wiser and have more fun. HAHA

[ZH875]

I am all for NEW_WO1 to stay in the Hossifers mess, it keeps him out of mine.:ok:

[RTR]

Just had a rather interesting thought! :E

As an ex WO, can I take my Royal Warrant with me to the US and request entry to either mess (I'm not fussed) and a bed for a few nights? I would, naturally, reciprocate if I could but I ain't got no clout no more. :{

Just asking. ;) ;)

[New_WO1]

I've heard there are plans to commission WO1s after Warrant Officer Candidate School.

Hopefully that'll clear up the whole problem as all US WOs will then be commissioned and we'll be recognised as officers.