US Army Warrants

[honiton]

New_WO1

Doubt if that will make any difference. However, if you are invited to a Sergeants' Mess don't whinge about being an officer, just remember to address the Station Warrant Officer (RAF) or Regimental Sergeant Major (Army) as 'Sir' (and that applies for any US WO or CWO.)

[oik]

If you are a consistently good operator (at whatever you do in the military) you will be respected and trusted by all, regardless of rank, commissioned or not. If all you seek is confirmation that you are important then you are probably a hindrance and might be better employed as a security guard or traffic warden.

There is no such thing as automatic respect due to rank. Respect must be earned by getting results.

[Jobza Guddun]

Oik has it exactly right I think.

NewWobblyOrangeOne, if nothing else, hopefully you are a little bit wiser, and better equipped to deal with people than you were before this thread. If you still hold EXACTLY the same view you had before, well........your career could be a difficult one, especially if you do multi-national ops. Might be worth relaxing about some things, you'll have far more to worry about soon enough.

In hope
JG

[adr]

Sound words, JG.

If you have authority, wear it lightly. My model for this was the late Cardinal Basil Hume. I happened to be helping out at a Christmas shelter run by the church, and the Cardinal was working alongside the volunteers. No, it wasn't a photo op; there were no press present. I saw him give a cup of tea to one old "gentleman of the road" who just took it and said, "Thanks, Farver." "You're welcome." With a smile and a nod, Basil moved on to the next tramp and the next tea.

:ok:

The moment you say, in so many words, "Respect ma authoritah!" you've lost it.

adr

[Argus]

I've heard there are plans to commission WO1s after Warrant Officer Candidate School.

Hopefully that'll clear up the whole problem as all US WOs will then be commissioned and we'll be recognised as officers.

This has to be a wind up. Even Forrest Gump would have got the message by now!

[MajorMadMax]

As a former Naval Officer in the Royal Australian Navy...

Wow, I didn't even know Austria had a Navy! :}

Cheers! M2

[Sunfish]

While "formally" WO's rank below a lieutenant in Australia, it would be an extremely ill advised, inexpereinced, or brave Lieutenant to presume they outranked or knew more than a Warrant Officer, especially the Regimental Sargent Major! Trust me on this:}

[moony]

Sunfish,
He certainly would out-rank the WO but would definitely not reach anywhere near his knowledge.
moony

[BewareTheDropBear]

MajorMadMax,

Yes we are a small but efficient Navy, very adept in avoiding the only rock between Norfolk Island and South America though. ;)

On Topic,
Before I became a Middy in the RAN, I was an Able rate technician, and became very used to calling WO's 'Sir'. Now, over 3 years since picking up my 'demotion' to Midshipman ;) I still find it hard to not call WO's Sir. Especially if I dont know the actual Warrant Officer, it is hard to call them Mr ???. Any other change overs (Mustangs in seppo-speak) with this problem?

[HAL Pilot]

honitone said:However, if you are invited to a Sergeants' Mess don't whinge about being an officer, just remember to address the Station Warrant Officer (RAF) or Regimental Sergeant Major (Army) as 'Sir' (and that applies for any US WO or CWO.) Why should he address them as Sir? He's an officer and they are NCOs. You do not want to recognize his position but you want him to demote himself and recognize a NCO as a senior? You expect him to respect your rank structure, military courtesies and traditions while you ignore and disrespect his?

You might possibly convince a new U.S. Army WO1 to accept this, but I doubt you will never get an Army CWO2 or higher to. I know you will not get a USN or USMC CWO to accept this. While the USN and USMC CWOs would welcome the camaraderie of a visit to the Sergeants Mess, they would expect to be treated as an officer. They spent too many years as senior NCOs prior to being commissioned to let anyone belittle their accomplishment because the other person refuses to recognize a different country's military structure.

If I was leading a U.S. military mission overseas, you can bet I would demand all our personnel were afforded the respect, accomendations and courtesies due their position within the U.S. structure. And I bet the CWOs would be housed, fed and treated as officers without any problems. Your personnel (as would ours in a reverse situation) would do so out of military courtesey - which is what this thread is all about. The officers in charge of your stations are well versed on diplomacy and they care about international military respect and recognition.

As I stated earlier in this thread, I led a USN P-3 detachement to Kinloss with a CWO TACCO and a maintenance CWO. Both ate and stayed in the Officers Mess. Both were invited to all officer social functions. Both were addressed and treated as officer in the hangars and operation centers. And this came automatically with no prompting from me or my bosses back at Kef. While TDY to SHAPE HQ, the USMC CWO5 I was with experienced the same treatment I did as a USN Commander. Again it just happened automatically. The poeple in charge of these things know the facts and make it happen. They accept it, so should you.

Anyway, I'm done with this arguement. Not conceding, just quitting. This has turned into a circular arguement endlessly repeating the same things over and over.

[Argus]

Major Mad Max

I didn't even know Austria had a navy

My dear chap, you've obviously never been inflicted with "The Sound of Music", with the von Trapp brats, sired by the gruff Baron von Trapp, who had apparently attained the rank of Captain in the Austrian Navy around the time of the ascent of Herr Schicklgruber.

And if memory serves me correctly, in the mid 19th Century, an Austrian Fleet paid a visit to Australia as part of a Hapsburg "show the flag" exercise in the Antipodes. The journals of various junior officers (not warrant officers as I recall) were on display in a Vienna museum in the late 1980s.

You really should get out more!

[New_WO1]

HAL Pilot

It takes a fellow American to talk sense!

I won't be addressing any British Warrant as 'Sir'!

[BEagle]

New_WO1,

The following link gives some insight into equivalent rank status:

http://encyclopedia.laborlawtalk.com/Comparative_military_ranks#British.2C_US.2C_and_Canadian_off icer_ranks

Particularly:

A Warrant Officer in UK service is a senior non-commissioned rank not comparable to the various grades of Warrant Officer in the US, although holding the Queen's Warrant and with certain privileges similar to those of officers. In the Army and Royal Marines, they are referred to by their appointment, of which there are many (for example, Regimental Sergeant Major is a WO1 appointment). The US rank is held by single track career specialists (ranking between Enlisted Ranks and 2nd Lieutenant) and have no NATO equivalent. An RN Warrant Officer Class 1 incorporated the former rank of Fleet Chief Petty Officer.

So, as neither fish nor fowl, it is perhaps hardly any wonder that your status is a mystery to the rest of NATO?

[Twonston Pickle]

Spot on BEags,

The site, when directed to the US Army Officer rank insiginia, fails to include CWOs, as does the US Army enlisted rank insignia. The US Army does not appear that proud of their "Officer" status. All supports the argument that they "fall between the cracks" so to speak.

[MajorMadMax]

Argus

Thanks, maybe I should go out more; but if that means being inflicted, maybe I shouldn't...:}

And if we are quoting rank charts, maybe we should look at the one from the official US Army web site (http://www.goarmy.com/about/ranks_and_insignia.jsp)! Also, here is the official US Army Warrant Officer Program web site (http://www.goarmy.com/about/warrant_officer.jsp).

Enjoy! :yuk:

Cheers! M2

[Safeware]

Major Mad Max,

Slightly off thread, but something I've always wondered. (well, not always). If you are Major Mad Max, why are you M2? You seem to be an M short.

:)

sw

[MajorMadMax]

Since you asked...

It is because I haven't always been a major (it only seems that way). I used to be Capt M2, but despite my best efforts I was promoted. The 'M2' portion has two origins...the first being a love of motorcycles, and the second being my real name is the same as a US filmmaker of dubious distinction. Much like the Michael Bolton character in Office Space, I needed a way to "distance" myself from that individual...


Samir: No one in this country can ever pronounce my name right. It's not that hard: Samir Na-gheen-an-a-jar. Nagheenanajar.
Michael Bolton: Yeah, well at least your name isn't Michael Bolton.
Samir: You know there's nothing wrong with that name.
Michael Bolton: There was nothing wrong with it... until I was about 12 years old and that no-talent ass clown became famous and started winning Grammys.
Samir: Hmm... well why don't you just go by Mike instead of Michael?
Michael Bolton: No way. Why should I change? He's the one who sucks.


Cheers! M2

[lasernigel]

A young Second Lieutenant approaches the crusty old CSM and asked about the origin of the commissioned officer insignias.
The CSM replied, "It's history and tradition ... First we give you a gold bar representing that you are very valuable and also malleable. The silver bar also represents significant value, but is less malleable. When you make Captain, your value doubles, hence the two silver bars. As a Colonel you soar over military masses, hence the eagle. As a General, you are, obviously, a star. Does that answer your question?"
"Yes," said the Second Lieutenant, "but what about Majors and Lieutenant Colonels?"
"That goes waaaay back in history ... to the Garden of Eden even. You see we 've always covered our pricks with leaves."


Say no more!!!:cool:

[itsallgonewrong]

HAL Pilot and New_WO1

If I promise to salute you if I ever See you will You please f*ck off and go and rattle this $hit to your american buddies.

Thanks

[Bing]

M2, What would you do with a million dollars?

[Ray Dahvectac]

:zzz:

Hasn't this thread been round more times than a break dancer on ecstasy?

If the first post wasn't a wind-up anyway, the latest missives by the uncommissioned WO1 cannot be anything else.

Should we not now agree to let the whole thing die, preferably a swift and painful death? :rolleyes:

[MajorMadMax]

M2, What would you do with a million dollars?

Two chicks at the same time! :ok:

Cheers! M2

[ZH875]

What would you do for a million dollars?

I would salute New_WO1

[honiton]

HAL Pilot said:

Why should he address them as Sir? He's an officer and they are NCOs. You do not want to recognize his position but you want him to demote himself and recognize a NCO as a senior?

For a start, Regimental Sergeant Majors and Station Warrant Officers are Warrant Officers not NCOs. Secondly our young friend should defer to the experience of someone who hasn't had his rank handed to him on a plate :*

[Argus]

HAL Pilot

One of the indicia of mateship is the capacity to offer old friends frank and fearless advice.

And your insistence that US warrant officers be accorded the privileges of commissioned rank in other jurisdictions, when your hosts don’t recognise them as such, is surely deserving of a whisper in your shell like, from those mates well placed to proffer guidance and counsel in an avuncular manner.

Irrespective of what you were taught at Annapolis, the rest of the world beyond the US doesn’t march to the beat of John Phillip Souza, McDonalds, Seinfeld, Mom’s apple pie, George W Bush, Wal-Mart and the demands of New_WO1.

Australian, New Zealand, Canadian, most European and British Warrant Officers hold a unique and distinct place in the allied military order of precedence. Uncle Sam may have a different view. But with great respect, Uncle Sam’s view is only binding on Uncle Sam. The rest of us see the world, and the precedence of warrant officers, differently. You really need to understand that, accept it and move on.

In such a situation of diverging views and your intransigence, some might proffer profanities about your ancestry and seeming lack of empathy for allies. I can’t possibly comment on that. But, with the advice that only old friends can give, and with the greatest of respect, I suggest that you look beyond the ambit of the instant warrant officer, and see things in a broader perspective.

[Point0Five]

For a start, Regimental Sergeant Majors and Station Warrant Officers are Warrant Officers not NCOs. Secondly our young friend should defer to the experience of someone who hasn't had his rank handed to him on a plate

That's the funny thing about life experience, it's a default funtion of living, everybody accumulates it. What I care about is people demostrating that they've learned somthing from it.

There is a reason why military organisations employ people for their different skill sets, and it is because of what they have to offer, not this nonsense of achieving promotion through attrition.
Pull your head in and recongise that you work in a team to deliver results for the good of your nation, and not to pander to your ego-centric view of the world. How does completing secondary school, achieving a university degree and being selected for an Officer position in the Air Force equate to having rank handed over "on a plate"?

[HAL Pilot]

I thought I was going to quit this thread, but like a moth to a flame, I keep getting drawn back....

honiton said:For a start, Regimental Sergeant Majors and Station Warrant Officers are Warrant Officers not NCOs. Secondly our young friend should defer to the experience of someone who hasn't had his rank handed to him on a plate First, it has been clearly established by the various links and references quoted in this thread that British WOs are indeed senior NCOs. Second, except for the Army WO pilots, all other WOs in the U.S. were NCOs who received their WO ranks through years of enlisted service and recognition of their skills and leadership. This includes Army WO1s who are not pilots. Your Regimental Sergeant Majors and Station Warrant Officers are no different than our Command Sergeant Majors (USA), Command Chief Master Sergeants (USAF), Master Gunnery Sergeants (USMC) and Command Master Chiefs (USN). They all rank below WOs and have no problem showing the WOs proper military courtesies.

Argus said:And your insistence that US warrant officers be accorded the privileges of commissioned rank in other jurisdictions, when your hosts don’t recognise them as such....Australian, New Zealand, Canadian, most European and British Warrant Officers hold a unique and distinct place in the allied military order of precedence. Uncle Sam may have a different view. But with great respect, Uncle Sam’s view is only binding on Uncle Sam. The rest of us see the world, and the precedence of warrant officers, differently. You really need to understand that, accept it and move on.
You as an individual members of the U.K. military might not recognize their status, but your government and military hierarchy do. The U.S. military would not accept their officers being treated as enlisted any more than your military would. Individual instances might slip by, but these would be the exception rather than the norm. If your military establishment (rather than individuals) treated our WOs as enlisted, you would see formal complaints at the highest levels. Where are they? I think it is you who can not accept differences in military structures and cultures.

Argus said:Irrespective of what you were taught at Annapolis, the rest of the world beyond the US doesn’t march to the beat of John Phillip Souza, McDonalds, Seinfeld, Mom’s apple pie, George W Bush, Wal-Mart and the demands of New_WO1. And irrepective of the British sense of propriety and class distinction, the world hasn't marched to your tune since the late 1800s either.

Argus said:instant warrant officer...seeming lack of empathy for allies....see things in a broader perspective Again only the Army pilot WO1s are instant warrant officers. The rest (and majority) have years of prior service. Do you recognize the position and authority of a 2nd Lieutenant or Ensign? Army Warrant Officer Candidate School is the same length as the other U.S. Officer Candidate Schools. Therefore are not the U.S. O1s who came from OCS without any other prior service instant officers? Should we not recognize any officers who received their commissions any way other than the approved British way? Maybe it is you who needs a broader perspective. Just because something is different doesn't make it wrong. Lack of empathy? I think you have our roles reversed here. I respect your system, history, culture and traditions - you don't respect ours.

[Echo 5]

" And irrepective of the British sense of propriety and class distinction, the world hasn't marched to the tune of the your tune since the late 1800s either. "

Nor have we lost a war or had a serious arse kicking either as I recall..... but could be wrong. No doubt some jumped up New_WO1 will correct me. :D

[New_WO1]

HAL Pilot

Checkmate :O :O

[The Rocket]

I respect your system, history, culture and traditions - you don't respect ours.

Ah, That's where the confusion lies. I understand now.

You see, the reason you feel we are not respecting your history and traditions old bean, is because you don't really have any, do you?:rolleyes:

Stroll on......

[Jobza Guddun]

I find this thread a bit tiresome now, but like HAL I get drawn back......

WO1, if all this is a wind up, I congratulate you on your success.

If salutes, and how much you want people to kiss your arse, are the be-all and end-all of your military existence, then WTF don't you just become a bloody Officer instead of whinging about it on here. Perhaps you could have your own website with a counter on it for the number of salutes you receive, updated daily. Try hanging around the enlisted barracks before starting work to get your day off to a flyer.:ok:

Mate you need to get yourself in Iraq or the 'Stan with real hard-nosed grunts, and learn about earning respect properly. Just 'cos you've got something on your shoulder doesn't mean Jack in the real world.

Oh and please remember, that with your apparent attitude, your ranking senior NCO will probably be following you around repairing the damage you've done. Spare them a thought.

[SASless]

Sorryo Echo 5....but history proves you wrong.

In late 1814 New Orleans was home to a population of French, Spanish, African, Anglo and Creole peoples dedicated to pursuing economic opportunism and the joys of life. It also occupied a strategic place on the map. Located just 100 miles upstream from the mouth of the Mississippi River, the Crescent City offered a tempting prize to a British military still buoyant over the burning of Washington, D.C. To capture the city, Admiral Sir Alexander Cochrane fitted out a naval flotilla of more than 50 ships to transport 10,000 veteran troops from Jamaica. They were led by Sir Edward Pakenham, the 37-year-old brother-in-law of the Duke of Wellington and a much-decorated general officer.

For protection, the citizens of southern Louisiana looked to Major General Andrew Jackson, known to his men as "Old Hickory." Jackson arrived in new Orleans in the late fall of 1814 and quickly prepared defenses along the city's many avenues of approach.

Meanwhile, the British armada scattered a makeshift American fleet in Lake Borgne, a shallow arm of the Gulf of Mexico east of New Orleans, and evaluated their options. Two British officers, disguised as Spanish fishermen, discovered an unguarded waterway, Bayou Bienvenue, that provided access to the east bank of the Mississippi River barely nine miles downstream from New Orleans. On December 23 the British vanguard poled its way through a maze of sluggish streams and traversed marshy land to emerge unchallenged an easy day's march from their goal.

Two American officers, whose plantations had been commandeered by the British, informed Jackson that the enemy was at the gates. "Gentlemen, the British are below, we must fight them tonight," the general declared. He quickly launched a nighttime surprise attack that, although tactically a draw, gained valuable time for the outnumbered Americans. Startled by their opponents' boldness, the British decided to defer their advance toward New Orleans until all their troops could be brought in from the fleet.

Old Hickory used this time well. He retreated three miles to the Chalmette Plantation on the banks of the Rodriguez Canal, a wide, dry ditch that marked the narrowest strip of solid land between the British camps and New Orleans. Here Jackson built a fortified mud rampart, 3/5 mile long and anchored on its right by the Mississippi River and on the left by an impassable cypress swamp.

While the Americans dug in, General Pakenham readied his attack plans. On December 28 the British launched a strong advance that Jackson repulsed with the help of the Louisiana, an American ship that blasted the British left flank with broadsides from the river. Four days later Pakenham tried to bombard the Americans into submission with an artillery barrage, but Jackson's gunners stood their ground.

The arrival of fresh troops during the first week of January 1815 gave the British new hope. Pakenham decided to cross the Mississippi downstream with a strong force and overwhelm Jackson's thin line of defenders on the river bank opposite the Rodriguez Canal. Once these redcoats were in position to pour flank fire across the river, heavy columns would assault each flank of the American line, then pursue the insolent defenders six miles into the heart of New Orleans. Units carrying fascines -- bundled sticks used to construct fortifications -- and ladders to bridge the ditch and scale the ramparts would precede the attack, which would begin at dawn January 8 to take advantage of the early morning fog.

It was a solid plan in conception, but flawed in execution. The force on the west bank was delayed crossing the river and did not reach its goal until well after dawn. Deprived of their misty cover, the main British columns had no choice but to advance across the open fields toward the Americans, who waited expectantly behind their mud and cotton-bale barricades. To make matters worse, the British forgot their ladders and fascines, so they had no easy means to close with the protected Americans.

Never has a more polyglot army fought under the Stars and Stripes than did Jackson's force at the Battle of New Orleans. In addition to his regular U.S. Army units, Jackson counted on dandy New Orleans militia, a sizable contingent of black former Haitian slaves fighting as free men of color, Kentucky and Tennessee frontiersmen armed with deadly long rifles and a colorful band of outlaws led by Jean Lafitte, whose men Jackson had once disdained as "hellish banditti." This hodgepodge of 4,000 soldiers, crammed behind narrow fortifications, faced more than twice their number.

Pakenham's assault was doomed from the beginning. His men made perfect targets as they marched precisely across a quarter mile of open ground. Hardened veterans of the Peninsular Campaign in Spain fell by the score, including nearly 80 percent of a splendid Scottish Highlander unit that tried to march obliquely across the American front. Both of Pakenham's senior generals were shot early in the battle, and the commander himself suffered two wounds before a shell severed an artery in his leg, killing him in minutes. His successor wisely disobeyed Pakenham's dying instructions to continue the attack and pulled the British survivors off the field. More than 2,000 British had been killed or wounded and several hundred more were captured. The American loss was eight killed and 13 wounded.

Jackson's victory had saved New Orleans, but it came after the war was over. The Treaty of Ghent, which ended the War of 1812 but resolved none of the issues that started it, had been signed in Europe weeks before the action on the Chalmette Plantation.

[The Rocket]

SASless.

Nice spot of googling there, but equally, it would not take a large amount of digging to find a comparable story which is not in the favour of the good old US of A. Whether that be during 1814 or even during the 1960's-70's, as I'm sure you're more than aware of

Here's two for your team e5

[Echo 5]

The Rocket

Two nice jabs there old boy. Good Show.:ok:

SASless,

It's early doors here in Merrie Engerland but I shall read your history lesson this PM with interest. I say " with interest " because in my school days American history was not on the curriculum.:)

I feel rather smug now that I have ( perhaps temporarily ) steered this thread away from all this saluting nonsense.

Y'all have a nice day now.;)

[beerdrinker]

Contents of this thread remind me of that hoary old one:

Are you a real Sqdn/Ldr or just a VC10 captain?

[SASless]

Echo 5,

Seems we learned naught from your experiences about battling insurgencies.


In the opening weeks of the Boer War, Kruger’s shoddy, ill-disciplined guerrillas inflicted a stunning series of defeats on Britain. Yet British artists had no hesitation in glorifying the British Tommy and his mates, drawing individual heroism out of collective disaster. In presenting heroic pictures like the one above, they helped obscure the realities of the war for the British public, which foresaw rapid British victory. As it turned out, there was nothing rapid about it: it took two and a half years, 450,000 imperial troops, 22,000 deaths and £222,000,000 to crush the Boers.

[Echo 5]

SASless,

Got to be brief now as the daily toil is about to commence.

Just wondered.................." In late 1814 New Orleans was home to a population of French, Spanish, African, Anglo and Creole peoples "

No Americans then ? :)

[BEagle]

Hmm - didn't the locals wipe the floor with the US 7th Cavalry at Little Big Horn?

I also seem to recall that a bunch of peasant guerillas did a pretty good job of defeating a certain 'superpower' in a little country called Viet Nam?

For all his faults, at least Harold Wislon kept the UK out of that mess. But had we been under Noo Labia then, would the toadying Bush bum licker have done the same thing?

[SASless]

Now Echo...you know better than that....even before the White man arrived there were Americans there....Red ones.

The troops were led by a Tennessee feller....nicknamed "Old Hickory" Jackson. Just showed what a group of folks drawn from all walks of life can do when they pull together.

Beags,

No one said we haven't had our defeats...but one did claim to have had none...merely pointing out some events to disprove that statement. I did not mention Singapore either....or a small amphibious assault against the Turks during the first World War...or a visit to Afghanistan by your bunch.

[ORAC]

Hmmmm, battle of New Orleans, Washington.....


I believe it was Charles de Gaulle who said he had the utmost respect for the British - because they had the sense to always fight their wars in someone else's country..... ;)

[Red Line Entry]

This thread has long since taken a rather disturbing lurch into rather petty (albeit sometimes well-researched) backbiting between Brits and Yanks. Considering we are often supposed to be the tightest of allies, is this just sibbling rivalry or is there more to it?

To return (albeit tediously) to the original thread, way back at the begining I was one of those who, being a Brit, naturally assumed that New_WO1 was overreaching himself by claiming that a CWO was a commissioned officer. I was wrong - he was right. The Americans are free to do what they like with their own military. Simply because they choose a system that we consider strange does not make it invalid.

So why all the bitching (mainly instigated by those on the eastern side of the pond) over the matter? I get the feeling that some of my compatriots are being influenced by (occasional?) irritation that some have found working alongside our allies in extended ops overseas.

My experience has been that our advice and requirements in theatre have often had a very low importance in American eyes. We get upset that we are not being considered, and the Yanks get irritated that a relatively minor player (a fact in terms of contributing forces) is so demanding. The term "special relationship" is something that I have heard far more from British mouths than from American ones.

As ever, the fault lies on both sides although I do feel that we Brits tend to (quite naturally) overstate our importance both diplomatically and militarily to the alliance. And the solution...? My suggestion would be that we as military officers (and WOs, commissioned or otherwise) should concentrate more on the issues at hand and rather less on point scoring between the 2 nations - leave that to the politicians!

[SASless]

RLE,

I would rather focus upon what binds us together than what makes us different.

The week at Duxford re-inforced that belief. All one has to do is see the aircraft there...Spitfires, Curtis machines, B-17 flying from common ground...and remember a time when they were doing it in combat against a common enemy.

A walk up the entrance ramp to the American Hangar reminds one of the cost of that coming together in a time of peril....as does a visit to the Battle of Britain Hangar.

Jest and banter is a nice game....but the serious talk needs to center around why we do stand shoulder to shoulder at the worst of times.

After all...we got over you burning the White House...probably just a Dining In that got out of control I bet.:uhoh:

[Cat5 in the Hat]

After all...we got over you burning the White House...probably just a Dining In that got out of control I bet.

Must have started in the piano room...

[honiton]

There must be a policy on how US Warrant Officers should be treated, but it doesn't appear to have filtered down to the foot soldiers.

Perhaps an instruction or brief article for the military magazines/ websites would clear up the matter (if any grown-ups are reading this).

[Squirrel 41]

New_W01, HAL, SASless et al

Asking a dumb question here (which may already have been answered in the last 15 pages of this, but I got sick of reading it after about 2):

Why is served by having CWOs? Why not simply have ordinary Officers and carry on in a manner that the rest of NATO understands? :confused:

Thanks

S41

[BEagle]

Errrmm, we-eellll, perhaps it's just that no-one's told the US Army that there is a 'rest of NATO'?

:p

Have a nice weekend!

[DuaneDibley]

"Just when I thought I was out, they keep pulling me back in......" A. Pacino - Godfather III.

I may have missed whether this point has already been raised in this debate but, 2 questions for New WO1:

1. Do you expect to be saluted by non-US Warrant Officers?
2. How long can you hold your breath for?

;-) DD

[SASless]

Squirrel 41,

Make you a trade...when the British Army and Marines organize a hat badge and trousers protocol understandable to the rest of the world...nay....any other part of the world....I will beseech the US Army to do the same with our Warrant Officer ranks.

Some units wear hat badge front and back....Army REME types wear REME badges on Marine Berets...some units wear Red Trousers...some none at all...ah, never mind...the head hurts thinking about it.:E

[Echo 5]

Well TGIF at last.........................let the banter begin !!

SASless,

Okay so we got the odd bloody nose in the occasional skirmish but I did suggest that we never lost a WAR. Or am I wrong ?

Re the Boer War, it took us from 1899 to 1902 to sort the beggars out but we eventually did it. In those days perhaps the loss of 22k troops was acceptable. Who knows. According to Jeeves the Brits put the families of the Boers in concentration camps and burnt all their crops. Bloody bad form.

However, it took the Spams from 1942 to 1945 to bring WW2 to and end and that was after the Brits and our Colonial brothers had been softening the opposition up since 1939.

Yes, Singapore did fall into the hands of the Yellow Peril but they didn't keep it for long.

Now, didn't Kipling write something about " The Afghan " ? No amount of carpet bombing by the mighty Boeing is going to make these guys give up as many ( including the Brits ) have found to their cost.

"When you're wounded and left,
On Afghanistan's plains,
And the women come out,
To cut up your remains,
Just roll on your rifle,
And blow out your brains,
And go to your Gawd,
Like a soldier."
Rudyard Kipling


Think I've said enough for now but always ready for a bit of FRIENDLY banter. ;)

[SirPercyWare-Armitag]

Phew! Well, thats sorted that thread out finally
We were right and newWO was wrong
Good to see everyone now agrees on that score but before we close here are some more things to ponder:
1. American football, worlds most boring sport or what?
2. Irish Americans, a non-existent species. Please answer in a thousand words or less with particular reference to Guiness.
3. Does owning a machine gun keep the King of England out of your face?
4. Tony Blair elected 3 times in a row and George Bush twice. When will people learn, democracy just doesnt work. Discuss
5. Crop rotation in the 14th century was particularly widespread after.....?

[ZH875]

American football, worlds most boring sport or what?Ahh Rugby for big girls blouses.

[Safety_Helmut]

Please do not mention Rugby and American Football in the same post. Aaaah, I did it myself, did I get away with it ?

Safety_Helmut

[SASless]

Echo.....seems there was at least one back in 1776 or so...unless you put it down to the Germans in the form of the Hessians.:E

[Echo 5]

SASless,

After a huge plateful of pork & leek & mash washed down with a rather pleasant Californian white I am quite prepared to thank you for the banter and call it a draw.

1776 ? Couldn't have been New World so must have been French. Never mind eh !! ;)

[New_WO1]

DuaneDibley said:

Do you expect to be saluted by non-US Warrant Officers?

If they are enlisted then yes.

[Echo 5]

New_WO1,

Don't wish to be offensive but I'm afraid you are probably a Troll and most certainly a Tw@t. Jump back into your box.

[Toxteth O'Grady]

5. Crop rotation in the 14th century was particularly widespread after.....?

.........John Lloyd invented the patent crop rotator.

But there again you'd expect me to know that!

btw it's considerably more not particularly ;)

:cool:

TOG

NEIL: [Reading from the notebook] "Prick is a wonker. Signed, the rest of the class."

RICK: Ah, yes, now, that was a sort of "in joke" that we had in my form. Actually, I was incredibly popular and everyone thought I was great.

NEIL: "...I agree with the rest of the class. Signed, Teacher."

RICK: Just test me on the stuff, will you? [Indicating a different page] There!

NEIL: Alright, alright, don't get uncool and heavy. "Crop rotation in the 14th century..."

RICK: Right. [reciting] "Crop rotation in the 14th century was much more widespread..."

NEIL: "Considerably".

RICK: What?

NEIL: It's "considerably more widespread", not "much more".

RICK: Well?

NEIL: Well, you said, "do it properly."

RICK: Well, not that much, you stupid bloody hippie!

NEIL: You said, "do it properly and don't skip bits!" How was I to know that wasn't important?

RICK: Well it wasn't important, alright? Shall we just get on and stop wasting time like this? Right. "Crop rotation in the 14th century was _considerably_ more widespread...after..." God, I know this...don't tell me..."after 1172." [Neil is s ilent] Well, was I right?

NEIL: No, but I didn't think it was important.

RICK: Well, what was it, then?

NEIL: You just said not to tell you.

RICK: I bloody well did not!

NEIL: Yes you did! You said, "Don't tell me" just before you said, "1172."

RICK: But I only meant for a minute!

NEIL: What, a minute from now, or a minute from then?

RICK: Look, just shut up and tell me the answer!

NEIL: Shut up AND tell you the answer?

RICK: JUST TELL ME THE ANSWER!

NEIL: John.

RICK: Thank you..."John"?

NEIL: Yeah, "John" is the answer.

RICK: "Crop rotation in the 14th century was considerably more widespread after John?

NEIL: "...Lloyd invented the patent crop rotator."

RICK: Oh, yes, I knew it, I bloody knew it!

NEIL: You didn't, you didn't, you said "1172"! That's not a bit like "John".

RICK: [hysterical] You spiteful bastard, Neil! Just because you've done loads and loads of work for this, just because you're a creepy little swot you've done about 15 million tons of work for this, like a girl, and I'm so hard and street and cool that I've done absolutely bugger all, and you've done loads, look at it, loads and loads, loads and loads... [he starts making a mess of Neil's papers]

NEIL: Stop it, Rick! It's only University Challenge, Rick, it's only University Challenge!

[Argus]

New_WO1

Have a look here (http://members.aol.com/intwg/trolls.htm)

And keep on pulling pud; it makes you go blind. In that state, you won't be able to see who salutes you - if indeed any one does. End of problem. Hallelujah!

[SirPercyWare-Armitag]

Thanks Toxteth O'Grady
Attention to detail was always a problem of mine

Anyway, I thought I had formally closed this thread having declared a glorious victory over those people who think warrant officers should be saluted?

[DuaneDibley]

New WO1 - I note your failure to answer my subsidiary question but hope that you're not going to be holding your breath while waiting for a salute from other warrant officers.

In reality, this debate is not really down to any fault on your part - the US seems to have invented a rank/position that is at odds with common practice among the rest of the world. I'm reminded of a classic seaside postcard that depicts a proud mother watching her son in a march-past and declaring to her husband "Oh look George, our Billy is the only one in-step"........ If Leichtenstein suddenly declared that its Corporal rank was, in their eyes, higher than the lowest officer rank of any other nation, would you be willing to salute that ethos? If so, then what about the N. Korean or Iranian military? In my view, some of the pro-New WO1 advocates on this thread typify the arrogance that loses an otherwise great nation a lot of respect among the world community - and there lies the root of most of our current problems (but is that another thread?).

DD - not smiling anymore 'cos the "banter" stinks.....

[Daedal_oz]

DD

In reality, this debate is not really down to any fault on your part - the US seems to have invented a rank/position that is at odds with common practice among the rest of the world.

Yes, it might not be common practice amongst the rest of us but the counter might be that they have more WOs than the rest of us have of any other equivalent ranks put together.

I have a number of friends who hold WO rank (1 - 5) and all of them have my respect. :ok:

New_WO1

Do you expect to be saluted by non-US Warrant Officers?

If they are enlisted then yes.

Don't push it, mate.:=

[ZH875]

New_WO1 I Salute Thee

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v604/ZH875/onefinger.jpg

[Echo 5]

DuaneDibley,

" DD - not smiling anymore 'cos the "banter" stinks....."

Some of us have tried to lighten up the banter because we recognise what an egotistical git this New_WO1 really is. If he isn't a Troll then he is something akin and the only way to deal with it is to ignore him. Every time someone replies to one of his posts only goes to dignify his existance. It should stop now.

[honiton]

A little off thread I know, but would the British Armed Forces allow a British WO to have a relationship with a US WO??;) ;)

[HAL Pilot]

A little off thread I know, but would the British Armed Forces allow a British WO to have a relationship with a US WO?? Why do you ask? Are you starting to feel a little something for New_WO1??? :confused: :ooh:

[Army Mover]

New WO1,

An interesting thread. As an ex British Army Warrant Officer, I can tell you that despite serving with the US Forces many times and spending some time at Fort Lewis in Washington State, I have never saluted a US Army Warrant Officer of any grade.

I have never been subject to the US Military Code of Conduct, I was at all times subject to Queens Regulations for the Army (if interested, you can download it on the net from our MOD website).

For your information, I will post here exactly what that says in respect to paying compliments (saluting):THE QUEEN'S REGULATIONS FOR THE ARMY 1975, Chapter 8, PART 3 - HONOURS, SALUTES AND COMPLIMENTS:

8.057.
a. Warrant officers, NCOs and soldiers are to salute all commissioned officers who they know to be such, whether in uniform or not, including officers of the Royal Navy, Royal Marines and Royal Air Force, Warrant officers, NCOs and soldiers are to salute with the right hand. Where from physical incapacity a right hand salute is impossible, the salute is to be given with the left hand.

b. NCOs and soldiers are to address warrant officers in the same manner as for officers, but are not to salute them.I think that is quite clear. Just to put things in perspective, most of the gentlemen you have been trolling on here, as UK commisioned officers, would have earnt a salute from myself by right - you would not. Had one of them told me to salute you, I would have questioned his/her sanity, but carried out their order.

Our RAF and RN have their own versions of Queens Regulations, they will say basically the same thing as the Army version. So it's plainly down to local commanders, had my CO at the time required compliments to be paid, they would have. Perhaps this is why people are not paying you compliments ???

[New_WO1]

Army Mover

So you wouldn't regard a US Warrant Officer as an Officer even though the US Government does?

'Officer ranks in the United States military consist of commissioned officers and warrant officers.

Warrant officers hold warrants from their service secretary and are specialists and experts in certain military technologies or capabilities. The lowest ranking warrant officers serve under a warrant, but they receive commissions from the president upon promotion to chief warrant officer 2. These commissioned warrant officers are direct representatives of the president of the United States. They derive their authority from the same source as commissioned officers but remain specialists, in contrast to commissioned officers, who are generalists. '

And you wouldn't salute a Chief Warrant Officer even though he holds a commission from the US President?

[Toxteth O'Grady]

"Nos morituri te salutamus!"

.............of boredom from the tedium of this thread :zzz: :zzz: :zzz:

:cool:

TOG

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

New bloke:rolleyes:

"And you wouldn't salute a Chief Warrant Officer even though he holds a commission from the US President?"

Considering there are hardly any rational thinking folks on the planet, including a huge swathe of your own country men who don't think your Commander in Chief is a complete fe@kin bufoon, why does it come as a great surprise to you that the "Mickey Mouse" rank he has given you is not getting the respect you had obviously dreamed of from this side of the Atlantic :p

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[Army Mover]

New WO1,

The fact that your uniform code requires your enlisted men to pay you a compliment is a requirement of your code. I've explained to you that British servicemen are not subject to your code, they are subject to the Queens Regulations that appertain to their service - nothing else. It is quite clear in those regulations that we do not salute Warrant Officers.

If anybody in the British armed forces is required to salute you, it will be as a result of a local British commander agreeing to that.

The NATO Status of Forces agreement between the British & U.S. Governments did not require me, or any other British serviceman at the time to salute you. This was 10 years ago, but the copy of Queens Regulations I have quoted you, that you can download yourself if you wish, has not changed.

If someone has misled you to think otherwise, then perhaps you should go back to that person for an explanation; I think it's quite clear from this thread that apart from the banter, no British commissioned officer agrees with you - these are the men that would have to enforce it.

[Argus]

As that US military aviation feisty sage of safety, Grampaw Pettibone would likely say, albeit in another context, "Well holy snapping d*ck****, great balls of fire, great horned toadies and Jehosaphat New_WO1, you must have calluses on both hands now"!

[RTR]

New-WO1.

Are you deliberately making this difficult to understand or are you self-centred enough to believe that you have a right to compliments that do NOT exist in the British Armed Forces? If it is the former I respectfully suggest some reading material of the kind that Army Mover suggests. If it is the latter I am afraid your argument is useless. As an ex WO11 I have a warrant but it entitled me to no more than the rank as described in Queen's Regulations. No more no less.

This debate is going around in circles and making people a bit exasperated. This is clearly our rules against yours. End of story wouldn't you say sir? ;)


Have a nice day!

[SASless]

Mover,

Hows about posting the part of the old Girl's edicts that pertains to rendering military courtesies to other nation's military officers. What's she say about that?

Also...how would you react if American military troops ignored your rank completely and reminded you that we chucked out the whole notion of royalty a few hundred years ago and thus have no truck with you lot and your traditions these days as a result?

Thus, despite being commissioned by the Queen, your commission would be without basis in our view and thus your claim to rank would be frivolous in nature....thus not worthy of consideration. That would mean therefore, that none of the British Officers would rate a salute from any American military person...is that where you would like for this to go? I thought saluting came from the old tradition of Knights raising sword arms as they passed....warrior to warrior show of respect.

Is that not what you are telling WO-1 when you state what you did in your post? You have no respect for tradition or other military forces that are engaged in combat with a common enemy as we speak?

[Daedal_oz]

Argus,

What and erudite, succinct and articulate argument. Well done!

(You t w a t!):*

[ZH875]

SASless, HALpilot, New_WO1 et al,

Maybe the reason why A LOT OF PEOPLE hate the Americans, is because you DEMAND respect.

Maybe if you EARNED respect, people will volunteer to do what you so desparately need/want them to do.

Until then, keep taking the happy pills.

edited to please SASless

[SASless]

ZH,

Everyone? You speak for the entire world now do you? Just what logical basis do you predicate that statement?

:=

[Army Mover]

SASless,

To answer your question's:

1. The Queens Regulations say nothing about "rendering military courtesies to other nation's military officers". It is always down to local commanders.

2. I'd never be in that position. You and your colleague are wrong and seem to be taking offence because of your mistake.

3. Erm, no - your regulations require you to pay compliments to an officer of friendly foreign countries. I always paid compliments to U.S. Officers of all of your Services, but our regulations specifically exclude the same honour to Warrant Officers (not just yours - we are rude to all of them), they would be addressed as "Sir".

4. Your traditions are not ours. If the rules are causing unrest among the U.S. Forces, then either get someone to change the rules or properly train your personnel in the correct honours and traditions they can expect to receive from foreign armed forces.

I note that your regulations require you to pay compliments to "Officers of Friendly Foreign Countries". Who decides who or what is a friendly country ??? Do you have a current list ??? Do countries get added/removed, if so - how is this published ??? If a British officer on here is unfriendly towards New_WO1, is he excused from paying him further compliments ??? :hmm:

[wishtobflying]

Huron Topp, please check PM's

[honiton]

Army Mover said:

I always paid compliments to U.S. Officers of all of your Services, but our regulations specifically exclude the same honour to Warrant Officers


I suppose the obvious question is: Should US Chief Warrant Officers appointed by Commission be classified as Officers or Warrant Officers under QRs?

[tablet_eraser]

For God's sake, why are we still arguing about this? To my mind there have been a lot of very childish, snide and unhelpful remarks made, particularly over the last couple of pages. America and Britain are allies. Sure, Britain hangs off Uncle Sam's coat-tails somewhat, but militarily we've been the closest nations in the world for almost a Century now. Can't we move on from this stupidity?

New_WO1, you've done nothing other than illustrate your poor grace at accepting the rights and responsibilities of command. Demanding respect will never gain you respect. The reason British noncomissioned personnel will not salute US CWOs is because they do not know that US CWOs carry a commission. Soldiers, sailors and airmen are taught to call ALL warrant officers 'Sir', and NOT to salute them. If we tried to teach our recruits the intricacies of every allied nation's armed forces they would never get to grips with it all.

Get over it, for Christ's sake. We DO NOT mean US CWOs disrespect. It's a simple measure of the fact that the US armed forces have developed a rank structure somewhat different to other nations. New_WO1, your wailing, and your occasional sh*t-stirring postings have not helped this debate at all. For the sake of harmony, PLEASE give up - right or wrong, this is a debate you will never win!

I am also ashamed at some of my compatriots for some of the vituperative comments made about our US allies. Whatever people think about the Bush-Blair alliance, sarcastic remarks about Vietnam and 1814 will not help make our case. Yes, we're all proud to serve Her Majesty, and, yes, some of our less diplomatic American cousins disagree with the principles of monarchay. Fine. No reason for us to react by making denigrating remarks about US history. Despite Hollywood's distortions, and despite our own unreasonable perceptions and expectations of the American superculture, it remains a fact that without the support of the USA we would likely have lost WWII. A little humility (tempered by the pride of having a longer history) never did anyone any harm.

BEags, old boy, as one who probably fought in the Colonial Wars, maybe we all owe you some classy Kentucky Bourbon and some rich Islay Whisky... :)

[New_W01]

Blimin 'eck. I can’t believe this has gone on for sooo long!

What started off as a bit of a wind up, has gone onto be a 17 page marathon!!

I started the thread to see if the reaction here was the same as it was on Arrse (the real New_WO1 asked the original question over there and I merely repeated it over here to prove that he was a simpleton).

BTW, all of my posts here were copy and pastes of his posts on the other site.

I must congratulate all participants on their contributions. It has certainly made me chuckle (If not opened a few of our eyes to some of the strange views some members have towards each other!).


Can all members now clean up their dummies and pick up their teddy bears as it is causing a FOD hazard.

I shall now retire this user name and revert to a less troublesome one. :ok:


PS To the real New_WO1. I hope you now understand how the Army and RAF view you and your rather limited grasp of your own self importance. Your opening gambit on Arrse has accrued somewhere in the region of 600 replies and nearly 40000 views here and there. If that doest get the message across, I dont know what will!

[wishtobflying]

After I read the real New_WO1's post on ARRSE (or was it military.com?) a week or two ago, where he plaintively cried "This isn't me!" with a link to this thread, I knew what was up, but kept quiet for the same reason - to see what came out of the woodwork.

As per my previous post in here, for an aspiring wannabe mil pilot who will enter as an Officer Cadet and take a while before even being a 2nd Lt, this thread has been very educational.

Would the real New_WO1 please stand up?

... it'd be interesting to meet the real one in person, eh?

[SASless]

Vote Time.....

Who actually believes that WO-1 is in fact an American WO-1?

Who thinks WO-1 is anything but an American WO-1?

This being the Military Aircrew forum....and of all places...ARRSE is probably the best fishing hole in the world...anyone reckon there was a big ol' trolling contest going on at both places?

I placed my vote quite a while back....I vote for the Super Troll.

What is impressive is the numbers and kinds of insulting posts made regarding the topic. I reckon some fish will always fall for the simplest of baits.:ok:

[wishtobflying]

The original ARRSE and subsequently military.com New_WO1 was the real deal I believe, if you read the posts - too "real" in his whining to be a troll.

This one, however, lives under a bridge and likes to roar at billy goats gruff.

[tablet_eraser]

Ha ha ha! Good work... seems the fish were biting this time round, and I include myself there! Good baiting, not-new-wo1!