Aerotropics?

[jangerlingjangerling]

What is the deal with Aerotropics taking money each week from their pilots to pay for the training they are getting for their islanders. They are already getting far below what they deserve but this seems to be a bit of a farce? Also heard that they dont assist peoples family in visiting the pilots on horn eg staff travel on tropics aircraft. That lovely lady who lost her husband on the Lockart metro started to shed light on this in the "Australian" several months back.
Taking money from underpaid pilots in remote areas where food is so expensive has got be a joke.

Wake up Aerotropics and treat your pilots better


By the way never been to Horn or GA side of Cairns airport

[Lisag]

Hi
jangerlingjangerling,

Yes that lovely lady is me and I can certainly confirm, and I obviously made it very public, that Aero-Tropics took a bond from my late husband's pay-cheque for his training on the bongo.

They did however offer a discount for family (wife, children) to travel on their airline.

I'm not so lovely anymore!

More to come!

cheers,
Fiona Norris

[dougiehouserMD]

I worked for this mob not that long back and would advise the following...

In my opinion, holding professional qualifications such as a CPL/ATPL and M/E CIR with 1500+ hours (av qual's of guys joining) deserves respect in my book. The same way I respect engineers for all the hard work they have done to get where they are.

Aero Tropics shows absolutely no respect to their pilots and makes you feel like absolute scum... for what? Oh yeah, they are giving you the “privilege” of flying a twin (BN2!) on "so called" RPT routes... wow!

Get your hand off it Aero Tropics and start treating your pilots with the respect and decency they and all others deserve. And while im on a roll, take a good look at the “Check and Training” that you are providing... everything from line training, endorsements and checks are by far the worst standards I have come across.

The moral amongst pilots was that of constant everyday negativity towards the company and their operations and the like stated above.

If your are reading this RL start making some changes mate... I know you and other management have tried to address these concerns in the past by making special trips to Horn but talk is cheap cobba. It takes more than a free feed at the pub and cheap XXXX Gold cans to win over an angry group of pilots.

They didn't have the training bond when I was there but to hear that these poor blokes are now being bonded truely indicates the type of people who are running the show. And before people start saying that they "had" to bond people cause they have such a high turn over of pilots well that again is their own fault... Its pretty simple logic - pay them correctly, give them an organised week (a real roster), give them a chance to get to Cairns to see the real world every now and then and for god sake treat them with some respect.

These pilots are not 200hr fresh CPL's, they have some decent experience under their belts and shouldn't be forced into doing jobs as sweeping hanger floors or washing the head engineers cars just to prove they are a "company" man.

All I can say is, if you want to treat your pilots like this, don’t get p!ssed off when they pack up and leave at short notice... bonding is not the answer... not even close.

And to top it off, due to some expansion and securing some new contracts, Aero Tropics is seen by potential new pilots as being up there with Skytrans, Hinterland etc... New pilots beware, Aero Tropics does not even come close to these companies.

I thought I had a pretty bad job before I joined Aero Tropics... I say no more.

[Ace on Base]

I may be stirring the pudding a bit here, but a very valid question -

I recall a company in the straits that had their AOC revoked after a fatal accident on one of the outer islands. How is it that Aerotropics has slipped under CASA's radar and are still operating RPT?

If this has already been discussed on a different thread - sorry, I didnt do my research!

Keep Smilin' Sunshiners!!

Ace

[Mainframe]

DougiehouserMD

A/T did not "secure" new contracts, they were "given" two DOTARS contracts, despite not meeting the tender specs, after the last elections.

There were highly compliant, qualified and reputable tenderers overlooked, much to the naive surprise of all.

Ace on Base

I recall that A/T's neighbour had their RPT AOC revoked because that operator became bogged,
after receiving a false strip-condition report.

Rumour has it that A/T has had 4 aircraft boggings this year (March and July, and the wet is not here yet!), so far,
and without the inconvenience of having their RPT AOC revoked.

Either the gods are smiling on them, or something is happening behind the scenes, in politics, to afford this level of protection.

It is interesting to note that an affiliated political party gave the Government control of the senate as from July 1st.

All is not as it seems, and all will eventually come out in the wash, as it usually does.

[crash_comics]

Did the fiasco of blamming the piolots for the seized engine on the lawn mower ever get sorted out. I recall a quote from the engineering department..."if they don't put oil in the lawn mower, how do we know if they put oil in the planes?". May I add that the accomodation in Horn Island is demoralizing as well.

[captain bling]

So, they managed to get bogged again huh....mmmmmmm.......so, this time did they manage to find the station they were suppose to land at before they managed to bog themslves?, or did they decide that near enough (i.e. 5 NM away) was good enough?

Who was diving this time? - PB ??? oh well, i guess that daddies Dash 8 might have some equipment on board to help him find that big airport in Cairns, wouldnt want you to mistake Mareeba for Cairns and get bogged.

Are these guys operating the Mail Run as RPT. .... would you allow your family to travel on an aerotropics aircraft ??????

[Captain Starlight]

Captain Bling and Mainframe

Rumour has it, and CASA's Web site confirms it, this company does not hold an RPT for any of the mail runs.

Rumour has it that you don't need an RPT AOC if you use a loophole called the "interposed travel agent".

This clever little dodge was dreamed up to beat RPT rules in the straits when LCRPT was first introduced.

It was verified as valid, but not implemented and tested up there.

Paying passengers are being carried on a scheduled service that doesn't have an RPT AOC to legitimise it.

Who cares about CASA when they can be so easily sidestepped.

By sheer coincidence, a former employee just happens to be the "interposed travel agent".

A trawl through the AAT records will find that person adversely mentioned
with regards to another earlier operation in the straights.

For those who wish to set up an RPT operation and wish to avoid all the processes that CASA insist on, here's how:

you just simply set up a licenced travel agency, that agency then charters your aircraft, sells and fills the seats,
and CASA can watch helplessly while they get on with surveilling those operators who go through the "normal" process.

Forget the level playing field, this isn't cricket, but who cares?

[Mainframe]

Captain Starlight

Sounds like a good idea:

Save money on maintenance, no need for for class A maintenance all that goes with it.

Save money on check and training, not needed.

Big saving here, no route checks, no proficiency checks, no recency etc, this is brilliant!

AND BEST OF ALL, it has CASA's blessing.

And just to round off the savings, don't worry about paying the award.

This is great, sounds like a licence to print money.

somehow I think my earlier comment might have to be withdrawn

"all is not as it seems, and all will eventually come out in the wash, as it usually does"

This is marvellous stuff, bet VB and J* wish they'd have thought of it when they started up.

[The Bullwinkle]

dougiehouserMD

The so-called "PROFESIONAL PILOT" who flew Islanders at 14,000 feet without oxygen, did daily inspection and run-ups in less time than anybody else could even walk to the aircraft. Doesn't bother carrying licence and medical when CASA are up on Horn Island.
All I can say is, if you want to treat your pilots like this, don’t get p!ssed off when they pack up and leave at short notice
Nobody was pissed off when you left. Relieved is probably a more appropriate word. You were an accident waiting to happen, and thankfully when it did, you at least had the decency to do it with another company. Yes, we heard all about your antics after you left Aerotropics.

You are obviously still very childish. Grow up a bit and get on with your life. I thought becoming a father might have matured you, but then again, that's another story for another day.

Wind your neck in you unprofessional excuse for a pilot.

Rant over.

[aerotropics]

jangerlingjangerling, for your information, "the deal" with Aero-Tropics is that it is doing it's damnedest to beat the odds for GA business. It has not been helped by a rash of pilots who have made a career out of ladderclimbing, with no regard to their word or professional commitment. These guys come knocking on our door begging for a position, promising "Mr, Mr, Let me fly your airplanes, I'll be most comitted to you and your company, and yes, I'll make a commitment to stay for 12 months etc etc" In good faith we employ them, making it clear up front what we will pay them, how we will train them, and what will be expected of them (professional conduct for at least 12 months to offset the training we put into them). In many cases some of these guys dont even meet the regulatory minimum experience requirements stipulated by CASA for RPT operations, which means more training / ICUS etc on our part. In the past, on a handshake we have agreed on the 12 month commitment. Then, after 1-2 months on Horn Is. they start pumping out resumes to Jet/Turboprop operators en masse. Inevitably, after a further few months one of those operators offers them a job similar to the following manner; "we have a (aircraft type) course starting the day after tomorrow, be on it or miss out." Captain Ladderclimber calls me up and says "Thanks for the twin hours I needed, I'm out of here tomorrow, bye." I have just spent in the vicinity of $5k training this guy, giving him the endorsement/line training he needed to fly my RPT airplane, and before I can even dream of recouping what I have spent, he is gone, without even the professional courtesy of reasonable notice. It's no skin off Capt Laderclimber's nose, he's now got the job he always wanted, but who will fly my airplane tomorrow? And what about the money I invested in him?

Well we got sick of it. And by the way, if these guys keep their commitment, they get every cent of their training bond back after 12 months service, and as it came out of their pay in small amounts over time they didn't even have to find the cash in first place. I don't think you'll find Virgin paying their pilots their $35k 737 endorsement back at any time.

Unfortunately, as usual, it was the minority who ruined it for the masses. Mostly, we find professional pilots (as are our current crew) of good professional character. After 12 months or more if they choose, we are only too pleased to see them all achieve their career goals. I have many past employees in Qantas, Australian, Virgin, who I feel a sense of pride towards in developing their careers. Many of whom still wander in our office from time to time to say Hi.

Capt Paul Norris was one of the good guys, and I'm certain the bond would not have been necessary with his honourable character. As it was, no bonds had been withheld fom his pay, and if it were it would have been returned to his estate without delay.

I hope the above has been informative, and let's not make pprune an employer slagging match. No one forces pilots to work here, they do it of their own free will.

As for the rest of the spineless anonymous remarks above, you can expect to be treated like a professional when you begin to act like one. How about trying to be part of the solution rather than adding to the problem.

Regards,
RL

[Lefthanded_Rock_Thrower]

Bullwinkle, thats not the best of it,

What about the Instrument Rating Renewal he failed at Horn a couple of months before he left.

When asked by the ATO " What are the requirements for descent below LSALT at Night" he responded with " Derrr, I shouldn't be flying at night, should be at home drinking beer".

Or who starts drinking at 4pm the day before he left Horn Island, then jumped into one of the Bongo vans at midnight and did a beat up on the township ( obviously still drinking untill that time ).

You wouldn't be where you are without your Horn time, be that good or bad.

[Bashinabout]

Unless your facts are scrupulously right you really should be a little more careful about what you say. Incorrect facts aired in such a public way can do major harm to a company.

As for the pay and conditions, enough has been said on this topic, much of which I do agree with. However, accepting the position is accepting the pay too.

As for getting bogged or misidentifying a station strip, GET OVER IT! On an anonymous forum you are happy to beat your chests, but how many of you guys have seen these strips? And how many of you would bet your left leg that after some rain you wouldn’t get bogged too? Or misidentify a strip? Dry versus wet looks a whole lot different from the air……

[jangerlingjangerling]

Dear RL - Aerotropics

I appreciate your response to my thread, it is always good to see some people not hide behind false names and play games, from that perspective you have my respect. I acknowledge that getting by in GA is tough and indeed it is a cut throat industry. I would like to add a few of my perspectives to some of your points.

Ladder climbing - Operators should understand that the majority of pilots have aspirations to move on from piston GA into jet or turboprops. The money (especially what your company offers) is just not enough for one mouth to get by on, let alone a family. Happy workers will stay for a while and staff retention shouldn't be a problem if you keep a happy ship. Your main rival from what I understand is Skytrans. They pay award and don’t have their pay packets docked for a training bond. From what I understand they shake hands and have a gentlemens agreements with the boss for at least 12months and due to the fact that they are kept happy, they stay for at least 12 months.
By suggesting that because virgin ask you to throw $30k at an endo, that it justifies you to bond for training, I can't see your logic. I understand that when someone new is put on that there are some initial training costs. The figure you throw around is $5k. Apart from the endo training on the bongo, aren't most of your ICUS runs done on paying services already, so in a sense all that is lost is 80kg or so of payload of which I'm sure the trainee is offloaded before a paying pax. What I think is lost here also is that every time that pilot goes to work he/she is also making money for the company. So in 2/3 months that pilot would have easily recouped you actual training outlay. The pilot goes to work to get paid, gain experience and in doing so makes money for the boss/company every flight.
From what I understand the accommodation is fairly substandard for the tropics guys/girls on Horn and to only pay them around $28k a year for an RPT standard pilot why wouldn't a pilot start to look at greener pastures after a few months?
Some of your guys and girls have family in Cairns and they should have more of an opportunity to get back there or have their family members taken up to horn at reasonable staff rates of course not at the expense of a full paying customer. Normal standby staff travel is not a illegitimate expense.

Your staff retention will change significantly if you just did a few things
- pay award - legal minimum
- look to improve accommodation on Horn.
- Make better access for family members to visit or be visited.
- Don’t insult your pilots by pulling cash from their pay for training, the only companies that make you bond for training is Skippers and aerotropics (not for only for endo but for training) and guess what they too have retention problems. Training is a cost that all companies have to bare. This extra cost to your pilots who are earning you money is insulting to them and no wonder they start to look further a field.

Thanks RL for replying to the thread, I know several former and current employees of your company and I have always thought very highly of your staff and your operation but I felt compelled to ask a few questions regarding the current conditions especially when your competition is doing the right thing by their staff and aerotropics staff morale is at an all time low. I look forward to reading positive threads in the future about this once great northern Australian company. Thanks RL for your time and this wasn’t meant as an insult just an opportunity to look at things from another perspective.

[piston captain]

I know a few tropo's boys and the latest is, they're being asked to sign a contract AFTER they have been employed so the company can recoup training costs.

How the hell can you have the audacity to ask someone to re-sign a contract AFTER they're employed? I think thats a bit rich considering they already have an agreement in place.

Also the turnaround time expected from the pilots is appalling!
15 mins to get pax out, unload, reload, recalc wt and balance and then prepare the a/c for departure. Whether the boys can do it or not is irrelevant, it just looking for trouble.

[J430]

Piston mate,

You raise a very good point, for any operator.

Look at the report on the Cherokee 6 at Hamilton Island a few years ago. Apart from some poor choices in lifestyle by the pilot, rushing pre takeoff and intersection departures all because of too tight a schedule may have been the last few holes in the bit of swiss cheese to line up.

J:ok:

[The Bullwinkle]

From what I understand the accommodation is fairly substandard for the tropics guys/girls on Horn Airconditioned, fully furnished. Beats the hell out of the Mozzie hut in Kowanyama. I suppose it's all relative. If you have just moved out of Mummy and Daddy's house on the North shores of Sydney, it probably is substandard.

Some of your guys and girls have family in Cairns And some have family in Melbourne, or Sydney or Perth. Hell, I didn't see my parents for over 3 years while I was pursuing my career. It was my choice. Why should the employer have to foot the bill?

Also the turnaround time expected from the pilots is appalling! 15 mins to get pax out, unload, reload, recalc wt and balance and then prepare the a/c for departure.If a 737 with 180 pax can be turned around in 30 mins, a couple of pax in a bongo in 15 mins is quite achieveable. At least it used to be, back when we just got the job done. Hell, I even had time to grab a quick smoke during turnarounds (back in the days when I indulged in that disgusting habit).

As was pointed out previously, nobody held a gun to anybody's head. If you don't like the pay and conditions, don't accept the job. Maybe you would like RL to move Horn Island 428 nautical miles down the coast to keep you happy. Horn is where it is, the work is there, the hours are there if you want them, and you can make some great friends and some great memories if you so wish. Is the glass half full or half empty? All depends on your attitude.

[Lefthanded_Rock_Thrower]

Piston and Jangerling,

I do not and have not worked for Aerotropics, although i have spent a fair amount of time in the Cairns / Torres region.

There is quite alot that you two have stated that is quite simply, wrong.

The agreements / talk about wages and conditions ( interview ) is done before commencment of employment, i know that personally, so for all that accept the position / conditions do so of their own free will.

Legal minimum, well have a bit of a surf through PPRUNe and you'll find that the award for us pilots in QLD is the State Minimum Award, which is the absolute minimum that any industry is required to pay, $400 odd per week, talk to QLD Industrial relations if you do not believe me.

Accomodation, well the houses on Horn ( being every structure that a person lives in ) is of a very different standard to that in Sydney or Brisbane.

No pilot is obligated to live in the company accomodation, they can go rent a unit, it would cost about the same.

From my first hand experience when over at the troppo's house on the various celebrations, most of the issues with the accomodation are due to pissed residents smashing things, or not cleaning up after themselves.

Better Access for Family, give me a break, there are two Sunstate flights a day, do you think that the aviation companies up there are adult day care centres ?.

What if RL only employed pilots that were endorsed on type, how would you like that option ?.

The jobs there and places like Halls Creek are, and always have been what they are, unless you say no at the interview you do not have a leg to stand on.

It's because of pilots like you that do not meet your handshake agreements and have accepted jobs for these wages and conditions, which in the harsh light of day you are not willing to honour that these conditions exist.

If you dont like the Pay "or" Conditions, just say "no".

If you say yes and do not honour your commitment, It makes me happy to know Aerotropics will grind you into the dirt when QANTAS rings.

You guys should get your facts straight.

[piston captain]

LHR I too have not worked or do not work for aerotropics, but I have done time in the Torres.

Mate I agree completely that pay/conditions, training bond etc would be discussed at the interview and it's up to each individual to decide whether they want the job/hours or not. No one is forced to take the job.
I'd also go further and say there are people in this industry (not aerotropics related) who are hardly 'company orientated' and have no intention of sticking to their handshake agreements, it's a fact of GA. READ: It isn't always the company.

HOWEVER I'm here to tell you that there IS people being asked to sign contracts AFTER their employment has already commenced, by several months actually. That IS out of line condsidering an agreement is already made. Pretty happy with where my facts lie on that issue, maybe you need to ask a few more people? ;)

If a 737 with 180 pax can be turned around in 30 mins, a couple of pax in a bongo in 15 mins is quite achieveable

True, however how many people are assisting with the turnaround? It's hardly comparing apples with apples now is it?
I'm not suggesting that it can't be done, I think the crews prove that it can. I'm simply implying that I don't think it's particularly good from a safety perspective. 15mins is pretty tight and when things are rushed things are forgotten or done "on the run" and we all know how good that is. :p

[The Bullwinkle]

I too have not worked or do not work for aerotropics I have, and the turnaround times are ample.

[Mainframe]

Bashinabout

quote
__________________________________________________

As for getting bogged or misidentifying a station strip, GET OVER IT!
On an anonymous forum you are happy to beat your chests, but how many of you guys have seen these strips?
And how many of you would bet your left leg that after some rain you wouldn’t get bogged too?
Or misidentify a strip? Dry versus wet looks a whole lot different from the air……
___________________________________________________

Mate! This contract is required to be operated as a Regular Public Transport service, not the Paris to Dakar rally!!

Mis-identifying strips:
RPT ops, CAR 218, Route and Aerodrome Qualifications, is legislated to prevent this happening.

Getting bogged:Again this is RPT, not Charter.
A strip condition report should be available from the reporting officer (nominated person at property).

CAAP 92 spells out most of the requirements of ALA operators serviced by RPT.

And you're missing a point somewhere:

The previous operator (20+ years running the service) lost their Chief Pilot approval AND their RPT AOC,
after getting bogged on a strip that the reporting officer certified as serviceable.
And after correctly notifying the regulators, and getting a permit to fly out.

Maybe a perverted action by the previous regime of CASA Nth Qld,
but thankfully the miscreants are now contemplating their respective alternative futures, outside of CASA.

Do not confuse Charter and RPT, although the new CASR's will see Charter being required to raise standards.

An RPT passenger paying for a seat on an airline has a right to certain expectations.

One of these is an expectation that the trip from A to B will be conducted with the highest degree of safety and free of incident.

CAR 217, CAR 218 and CAO 82 spell out most of the requirements to ensure this.

A charter pilot, due to the ad hoc nature of charter, deals with a higher degree of risk with ALA operations.
A charter pilot may self brief and self assess all aspects of his/her flight.

An RPT pilot will operate to SOP's, be route and aerodrome qualified
and have anccess to an infrastructure that ensures that the whole operation is minimum risk.

Yes, we all have the opportunity for getting bogged in charter ops,
I have been, as have many readers,but that same opportunity must be eliminated or greatly diminished in RPT.

It's a scheduled service, if there is doubt about a strip, that is sufficient reason to not land there.
Both CASA and any legal team would have a field day with you if,
on an RPT service, you chose to operate into a strip about which you had doubts and an incident resulted.

[nasa]

I’ve known RL since he was a little :mad: that came to me one day and said Yesterday I couldn’t even spell PILOT, now I is one…..Bloody nice guy and he will undoubtedly ring me and politely abuse me for my indiscretions here. I’ve seen a good number of the so called pilots that have come to him looking for a job with promises of what they will and won’t do for RL. I even had one guy call me and ask me to put in a good word for him with RL as he needed a job to tide him over whilst waiting for bigger and better things. Yeahh, rite!!!!!!!!!

What I’m reading here is the usual BS from a minimal few who for whatever reason couldn’t or wouldn’t make it with AT, so let’s bag the sh!t out of RL and his Staff so that we cause as much hassle as we can. AT may not be QF, Deathstar or MTA, but in comparison to a number of previous operators in that part of the world I've had dealings with, AT are streets ahead. But as someone else alluded to earlier, Sydney's North Shore it aint.........

Hey Mainframe which particular guise are you referring to when you say previous operator. From my experience with them, aircraft were sh!t and they had trouble keeping staff for whatever reason and I don’t think you would want to dig too deep to come up with reasons other than getting an aircraft bogged as to why action was taken against them.

You see, RL is too much of a gentleman to bag other operators, and according to many, a gentleman is the last thing I am. :rolleyes:


--------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Second Place is First Place for Losers" :rolleyes:

[TopperHarley]

Hows that new spanker with the funny looking nose that just got married going (initials NC) ?!?!

Does he dare venture down the Wongai ?!?!

[Ski Guru]

Sydney's North Shore? Gods country.

All this talk is making me home sick.

Powder to the People

[puff]

Amazing how pilots will still stand up and defend an organisation that pays it's pilots basically less than a untrained check out operator at Coles. Imagine you had to pay back Maccas or Coles back for their checkout or sundae machine training. I've also heard from blokes that AT isn't a bad company, except for that reason alone. Amazing what we'll all do to fly a bloody twin!

[Lefthanded_Rock_Thrower]

Puff,

If they were paid the AFAP award or similar, they'd find something else to moan about.

What can possibly be drawn from all of this, if you accept the money, thats your stupid fault, if you do not honour the agreement you make, you will suffer.

What of the plight of a relatively experienced pilot who has a family and a house to pay off, applying to an operator, that wants more money than the QLD minimum award ( say inline with the AFAP ), some dweeb will do it for less ( ohh ohh I just needed to get my 500 multi command ). We all know who gets the job.

So the operator logically chooses the cheaper option, which ultimately turns out to be cheaper in the very very short term, the junior pilot gives two days notice and runs off into the sunset to find QANTAS throwing his application in the bin when his references are checked.

Those who are whinging in this case, have, as a demagraphic, caused the problem.

Sticking a feather in your bum does not make you a Chicken ( Read: if you want to be treated like a professional, act like one ).

[NAMPS]

Seems to me to be a vicious cycle.

I can see the problem from both sides -

I can understand a pilot who is being paid peanuts moving on to something bigger and better when the opportunity arises (why wouldn't you?)

I can also understand an operator not wishing to invest money in training people that won't stick around for the investment to pay off.

So long as there is a surplus of pilots in this country and the small demand for GA services remains, things won't change.

[DeafStar]

Most pilots based in the Straits will have a whinge. I know I did. It's bloody hard work! I agree that alot of pilots lack integrity on the loyalty front, however you cant be critical of a pilot that wants to see his conditions raised. Pilots in GA have been getting shafted in certain areas for along time. Just because its the status quo isnt a defence. AT paid pilots poorly when I worked up there. I know this because I know about bloody 10 of them. Yes most of them think RL is a top bloke. Didnt stop them from TRYING to get their conditions raised.

Even the mighty Skytrans has dropped a few conditions for their Torres based crew. Keep up the fight for your conditions!

Ultimatley if you accept a job up in the Straits you should realise that life will be tough for a while. The knowledge and experience you gain will be with you for a lifetime. I sure as hell dont miss the Straits but Im bloody glad I went.

Also you should be able to turn a Bongo around in 6.3 minutes. If you cant then you havent been late for 4 jobs whilst being rained on, yelled at with sweat dripping into your eyes whilst you chase escaped mudcrabs around inside a filthy terminal filled with 3 go shows, 100kgs overload and a hangover.

All stations sassie. Thanks for coming.

[bushpig]

Torres Straits is a great "advanced" learning ground. Turn arounds are not all that hard to acheive and where else will you get that boost to what could be a long and good career in aviation. So stop whinging and just get on with it. You see how the ex PNG pilots reminisce over PNG (some of them still there!). Well Torres Straits is a bit like that to.
Yes I have flown there and for Aero Tropics as well as with a regional that was there before them. I had my complaints at the time to, we all do.
While I was there one younger pilot with A/T had to be virtually talked into having a go at the big stuff as he said he wasn't in a hurry and was enjoying himself where he was. Needless to say he "walked" in the job with the major airline and I am sure it was based on his experience gained, largely in Torres Straits with A/T. And his attitude!!
RL, as I remember was justly proud of his pilots acheivement and that bloke wasn't the only one to go that path.

[Captain Starlight]

Ski Guru

North Shore,

"The Oaks", Neutral Bay

or up towards Chatswood, the "Great western"

No wonder you're homesick, who wouldn't be.

Pity the football is no longer at Nth Sydney,
arguably the next best footy ground, outside of Ballymore, for atmosphere and ambience,
but then that's what the Nth Shore is all about, quality of life.

As for the the other stuff further north, well NAC Darwin finally came to the party,
so if there really is an under award situation that pilots willingly sign up for,
maybe it will sort itself out as it did in Darwin.

And yes, aspiring pilot's are little different to Saturday night suitors,
promise anything to get what they want, then chew their arm off at the elbow early in the morning to escape.

Nothing new about either scenario over the years, is there?

A good operator should really have the skills to screen,
and if they are prepared to pay for quality they'll probably get it.

Right now it seems that both sides are screwing each other.

Both sides need to work towards a win - win situation, fair pay and conditions, fair commitment and loyalty.

There are at least two other GA operators who endorse this philosophy up that way, it works.

Almost every CPL is aspiring to airlines, why else are they trying to get experience under their belt?

Remember, it's already been said here,
the airlines often contact your last (or current) employer.

They are, after all, interested in how you contribute and perform,
remember that when you break your agreement.

Think about what your boss may say about you to them,
based on how you reciprocated to the opportunity you were given to get to the airlines.

Now back to the Oaks for a steak under that magnificent big tree.

[The Bullwinkle]

Most pilots based in the Straits will have a whingeTorres Straits is a great "advanced" learning ground.I sure as hell dont miss the Straits

At the risk of appearing pedantic, it is the Torres Strait, as there is only one.

[DeafStar]

There can be only one highlander!

Hows VB treating you Bully?

[Flying Mechanic]

DEAFSTAR, you made me laugh with your ALL stations sassie line. Any news of wildman?still doing the SUNBUS run from Yorkies?I hope hes back flying providing some entertainment for young Pilots.......er chester....tim tam.....midsy.....wheres the fuel cap for the bongo!

Greetings from the big sandpit!FM

[Captain Starlight]

Bullwinkle

G'day, yep, a bit pedantic! Sorry I missed you on your last foray up north.

Didn't Crappy teach you anything while at KOW?

The term "Strait" and the term "Straits" are generally interchangeable.

A Strait is a narrow but navigable body of water, many of which exist in the Torres Straits.
You will recall the major straight between Hammond Island and reef 1, but there are straits between reef 1,2,3,
and near the Adolphus group, and near Maer (Murray Island) in the Eastern Straits,
hence the term usually and correctly takes the plural form.

There are the Straits of Magellan, the Straits of Singapore, and Dire Straits.

The Straits of Torres were first recorded as navigated by Luis de Torres in 1606 but were not named until 1792,
by Alexander Dalrymple, on Matthew Flinders trip around Oz.

quote:

"The Torres Straits are nearly thirty-four leagues wide;
but they are obstructed by an innumerable quantity of islands, islets, breakers, and rocks,
that make its navigation almost impracticable;"

Anyway thought police and spelling police are not usually welcome on these pages,
instead we usually tolerate the grammatically challenged,
the syntax challenged,
and those who were not taught that correct spelling may be important.

Each to his own, some talk of the Kimberlies, others prefer The Kimberley, be it East or West.

The Torres Strait, as a demographic term, is a great place to see the straits!!

CS.

[wessex19]

Well that was STRAIGHT to the point!!! Or is that strait???? I need a beer.

[all stations sassie]

Flying Mechanic, perhaps still making an approach to POW...Deafstar how goes it?
Tks bullwinkle.....that cleared it up a hell of a lot

[The Bullwinkle]

I should just stop being pedantic really and get a life I spose.:O

VB is treating me well. Still have lots of great memories of the STRAITS.:ok:

Plenty of guys here who did time in the straits way before our time. Some loved it, some were not so keen, but all have some story or other to tell.

Hope you guys are all travelling well.

"You no Gateway customer, You Wongai customer"

[notutae]

I worked for Troppos for more than the 12 months, have since been way out of contact with internet etc till recently (while this thread developed I have been in Africa), and I am disappointed that someone has made statements on this thread with a title that could easily be mistaken as me, and the bgger hasn’t even had the balls to tell me.

I have requested the PPRuNe moderator remove the post, but it looks like that is not part of the rules of engagement here.

For Bullwinkle: We have met, your claims are untrue. You have a close acquaintance in a senior position with the company, and I understand your loyalty. You are senior to me in this industry and I would like to believe you are exposed to a much more intensive safety culture. If you have allegations, concerns or advice: please contact me and discuss them with me personally (you could have easily found my details, or just email me direct thru my profile details).

This is a public forum, and so for matters relating to the title and content of this thread (particularly while individuals choose to remain anonymous): I prefer to make a positive / constructive contribution, or remain silent. Many aircrew have a vested interest in continuing to operate with this company, and most of what’s being discussed here should be either

Dealt with via the appropriate safety or dispute procedure,

Or (where unresolved and safety related) in a Confidential Report, with sound facts.


Cheers

Dougs

[The Bullwinkle]

If that's not you, then obviously I was talking about somebody else :ok:

I was merely responding to the thread as I saw fit with the facts at the time.

You need to take up your concerns with the imposter who has decided to abuse your nickname.

Thus the downside to an anonymous forum:D

[Lefthanded_Rock_Thrower]

As we've seen above there are more than one "Dougs" that has worked for Troppo's.

One was in 2000 and another in 2005.

Heard today that "Dougs" from 2005 and a computer operator were fatally injured in a C210 Accident in the Emirates somewhere whilst on Survey, Condolences to the families of the two.

[Woomera]

Sadly, I can confirm notutae was involved in the C210 accident in Namibia.

Woomera

[MONK]

Wasn't "Coops" the old chief pilot of Troppos?.......troppos has never paid their pilots fairly.....and they work hard...very hard for their money.....even beyond their flight and duty times......

Be careful if you work for troppos......especially with "Coops".....if you're not part of the "Boy's" club he'll go after you.....just be strong enough to stand up for yourself and keep your integrity...he's known to backstab his own friends.....

RL.....well...he's a gutless.....and never keeps any of his promises.....if my memory is correct he promised a sheety wannabe pilot that if he (the sheety) worked in the hangar and fix his aeroplanes he would give him a flying job.....only to be sacked by "Coops".....RL claims to be a christian.....but never acts like one......

Hey RL....doesn't the bible say you should a man (or woman) fairly?.......

I'm sorry to hear about the lost souls from the metro.....I just hope they (RL/TROPPOS) don't cover this one up like they did with the navajo the crashed in yam island......

[splatman]

How did this post lead you to a position of slandering an ex Chief Pilot of AT.

Boy it looks to me like you are treading on very thin ice here!

Accusations of operations outside of Flight and Duty Times! Naturally you have proof of this if some one elects to challenge you on your accusation

Accusations of,( If I have read the intent of your post correctly ), an abuse of power in the position of CP by singling pilots out that were not part of "the boys club". Could it be that there were standards issues that were identified and focused on? Could it be that the pilot/s concerned were not blending in with the other crews and were actually causing an internal problem that needed to be dealt with?

Accusations of a cover up associated with an over run on YAM. What exactly are you suggesting was covered up and by who?

Spineless name calling and aspurtions of dishonesty of the owner of AT, based on an alleged promise of flying work.

All these accusations and aspurtions are a big call. I know Coops personally from my time on Horn, I also know plenty of crew that have worked under him and generally most have indicated nothing close to your claims.

I do however know two pilots that worked for AT that claimed to be victimised by Coops, and that becasue they were not in " the boys club" they were targeted over standards issue and were continually subject to reviews and additional line training.

Well if you are one of those pilots, think long and hard before you go making any further aspurtions in a public forum. Because if Coops wants to take this matter further by way of defamation. I will be only too happy to stand up in court and provide my observations as to standards and deficiencies with these two.

The post was about AT and you happily turned it into a personal attack on an ex Chief Pilot.

:mad:

[DUXNUTZ]

Geez who would imagine that someone in GA would be encouraged to exceed duty/flight limits! Ha!!! good one.......

[Frickman]

splatman

I flew in the Torres Straits around this time and know the two pilots to whom you refer, and judging by your response there's only one person that you can be.

Not only is Monk's post accurate but, IMHO, also quite reserved and a long way short of slander. Especially about the CP, who would routinely carry around a mouth guard and challenge his pilot's to a fist fight.

splatman, you are a nasty, bitter, snide little man. You earned this reputation in the Straits and it is the reputation that still precedes you.

Before mentioning legal action against those who would cast aspersions (I assume that's the word you meant). I would suggest you think about the damage that you tried to inflict on the careers of your work mates by very publicly casting your own aspersions.

[Binoculars]

Yes, I too feel moved to join this thread and help spread the spirit of peace and goodwill to all men so apparent from the postings here.

Ahh, GA in Oz! :rolleyes:

[MONK]

Splatman......

Sorry if I caused any offence....these are just stories I have heard.....you mentioned 2 pilots....but I heard there were around 6 pilots who suffered the same consequence.....I do not want to put anyone down but does that mean I can't talk about things that have happened?.....my intention was not to defame the CP but to warn people.....if you are fair as I would assume you are...you would agree with me that work place harassment and bullying is not a nice thing to experience.....especially when someone who is in a vulnerable position....(young pilot desperate for flying hours).....etc.....

I'm sure your dealings with the "Coops" was a good one.....but that is just your perspective and your relationship with him.....how he deals with others is dependent on their perspective and their relationship.....have you worked under "Coops"?.....do you know whats its like to have him as a CP?....

There is no malice in my post.....I just felt for the people who have experienced harassment and bullying at work.....it really destroy their self esteem....their performance at work deteriorate and even their home life also suffers.....

Frickman.....

I have heard the same story as well.....I heard on one occasion the CP even encouraged some of the pilots to take a fellow pilot who was known to be a bit messy in the shared accomodation "out the back and teach him a lesson"

Splatman.....

If these stories are true then it is of great concern....if they are false then I apologise......

Anyway...hope everyone has a safe xmas and a great new year!!

[splatman]

Monk

these are just stories I have heard

I think that is exactly the issue! Perhaps some restraint in the text of your post would have been more appropriate. Like " I have heard that an ex CP did this or did that" rather than making statements that lead others to think your statements are based on actual knowledge or observations.

I do agree, there is no place for such actions in the workplace but is this the place to make such claims when they can not be defended or cross examined?

No offence taken on my part from your post, I just believe this type of post is typical of an issue within GA, people are only too happy to pull the knife and act without properly thinking thinking about what they are about to do.

And speaking of such actions Frickman you have a pm, hopefully you will answer, or I will just have to live with your petty name calling.

Grow Up :suspect:

[Go Right Ahead]

After reading all the replies, I usually would not get involved but I feel compelled to answer to some of these hearsay and rumours if you will.
I spent almost 2 yrs with A/T based in HORN with the occasional CNS visit to make sure I remember how the real people live and what real coffee taste like. Sorry "Hairy" but your coffee was top notch at 5am before the CJ pickup.
In regards to RL, When I joined the company i was given the full run down. Based in Horn, take it in turns for 100 hourly return to CNS, sharing living quarters and so on. He put everything on the table and he even mentioned "I know you already have 500 multi, so i dont expect you to stay 1 yr, although that would be nice". Everything was done on a gentlemen's agreement. I made my intentions clear that from A/T I would like to go to airlines ot at least turbines, prefereably something 50 seater or so. But I did say to RL " I will give you 12 months after that i shall start firing off CV's".
In the time I was there he endorsed numerous amounts of pilots, whom most didnt have the minimums for RPT as stated in the CARs. Most were lacking in multi time or night time, but RL made them do CHRTs until they had the minimums requirements.
RL knew guys were using A/T as a stepping stone to bigger things and i guess this is where paying for the training was borne. I cant blame him really, as it probably difficult for him to recuparate his initial outlay when guys bail on him. I have been there in CNS when guys came looking for work. they always say I will do anything, some even said I would pay for my endorsement, God knows I rememeber how difficult it was to get a Bongo or PartialAviator endorsement. Not many places in Oz do it.
Anyway all Im trying to say is I found RL to be a true gentleman and definately someone I would go back and work for or recommend for guys to work for.
Bully, how are you mate? Glad to hear you got that elusive jet job. I remember during our ICUS sessions you always dreamt of flying the B737. i agree the turaround times where sufficient, only problem was closing boarding and always one bloody pax who decides to turnup as you start number 1. Delays were usually pax related, they always told to get to the airport on time and usually we do a flyover to let them know we have arrived but it never seemed to sink in. Hope you're enjoying VB.
In regards to Coops, once again I have nothing but good words to say about the man. As a CP, I found him to be fair and to the point. he didnt hide anything and pay credit where credit was due. He gave you an arse kicking(verbally) if you needed it. He made sure that we all got our equal times to come to CNS and relax a bit and even offered to stay at his place. lovely meal cook but him or his lovely lady(P).
This so called boys club i read about, its total crap. Standard day was daily aircraft, fly, leave the aircraft clean. it's respect for you mates. Like any other guy I hated cleaning the planes as much as the next guy. But that was what the job entailed, so we just did it. It kept everyone happy and those who didnt started to cause trouble for themselves.
About the pay, yes it was lower than other companies but then again we have our rent and utilities paid for, which can be astromical up there. Specially with guys leaving the aircon on, i think during there career up there. So in hindsight, the had we been paid more and asked to find our own accom, then im sure we would have been further out of pocket.
Getting to CNS was always a bone of contention. i guess in everyone's eyes it just didnt happen enough or for long enough. Having said that I do recall several times where RL or Coops has offloaded freight in order for the boys to get there food(beer) up to horn, or they put in on the Sunnies flt.
Thats my two cents worth. Being up in the straits is what you make if it. If you're use to Lygon street cafe and that lifestyle, which admittedly i was, it's all a shock when you get there. In three words.....IMPROVISE, ADAPT, OVERCOME.
i wish i could go back and do a few flights up there now, not saying i want to go and live there again.

In regards to the accident in Namibia, can i just confirm it was the Doogie from 2000. According to the name mentioned by Woomera it appearst to have been him???????????????