500 Hrs Multi PIC..????????

[757manipulator]

This has probably been covered before..but, where the hell did this stupendously idiotic requirement come from??

Story goes...I applied to said 737 operator, as an F/O with 2000hrs of heavy jet 757/767 multi-crew experience behind me, only to be told I dont have 500hrs multi-PIC therefore I dont meet the minimum requirements!

I'm not moaning about a bruised ego here, I just cant think for the life of me how this requirement is anything but idiotic..any thoughts?

757:yuk:

[Capt Fathom]

It's their train set.
Maybe they need the command time for their insurance, or perhaps for your upgrade to command at a later date?

[tinpis]

Your experience to date amounts to sweet fcuk all.
Go get some time in the left seat of something.

[757manipulator]

Capt, yep it is their trainset, although for insurance?..500hrs multi PIC gets you insured, and time on type and experience doesnt?
For a command upgrade?...that makes no sense at all.."yeah you've got 500hrs on a PA31..we can work with you..this other guy with 2000hrs 737/757/767 experience..nah hes obviously a rookie"

:rolleyes:

[tinpis]

http://www.augk18.dsl.pipex.com/Smileys/****happens.gif

With less than 500 hours command on anything at all I would view you as a pain in the arse as an FO on a 757.

[757manipulator]

really tinny how so?

PA31, BE200, mostly command...just doesnt add up to 500..Id say my experience of Africa..the US..and NZ and Oz was reasonable..certainly not F*ck all.

Additionally tinny..do you think Im not capable of operating a 737 as an F/O?

Guess I wont be a pain then tinny cos I've got 1400hrs PIC or so

[tinpis]

Someone let you fly a BE200 with less than 500 hours in command?

[757manipulator]

No Tinny.....had over 700 hrs command at that point (250 of which was multi) its just in the UK there's no requirement for 3 moon landings in the last 90 days to fly what is a basic and rather docile aeroplane..even when you lose an engine at rotation (which I did with an aeroplane that weighed around 12000lbs at the time..on an ISA+20 day). 2 months after that an 100 hours later offered a 737 F/O position..then upgraded to a 757/767.

Which brings me nicely back to my point..why the requirement?

[Capt Fathom]

You are obviously not interested in what anyone here has to say. Sounds like moaning about a bruised ego to me.
Did you ask them why they want the command time?

[Wizofoz]

Calm down fellas!!

757 Manipulator,

I think you'll find it is still a requirement under CAOs to have a requisite amount of Command time before you can be PIC of a multi-pilot aircraft (I think it's 750, I'm not sure if there is a minimum amount of twin time.)

It's an archaic throw-back to the bush-flying type background of the majority of Australian Airline aspirents.

As such, it is pointless joining an airline with less as an FO, as you will never gain the required hours in the RHS.

I think Qantas get around it as FOs can log command time while the Captain is off the Flight deck, but at Ansett we had Cadets who hd to go and fly lighties in their spare time to get the hours to qualify for command.

Tinpis,

I'm afraid you are displaying the usual Aus-centris head-in-sand attitudes prevelent in Aus Aviation. In Europe virtually no new-hire airline FO would have 500 hrs twin command, as there are virtually no twins here to fly!! Most have either come straight from flying school with 250 odd hours, or maybe have done a couple of years as FO in a turboprop. On the whole they do a bangup job as FOs, and most successfully upgrade after about 4 years with 3000 hrs or there abouts.

Those few BE200s and the like are indeed being flown by people with less than 500 hrs command, as there is no one else to fly them.

The world does not finish at Darwin...

[757manipulator]

Thanks Wiz for injecting a little perspective into this, I guess I'll go back to the Kingair man on my days off and see if they want a spare bod to fly for beer!

Tinny..it wasnt my intention to cast brick bats at the Oz system...it just seems the requirement is a little pointless really.

Capt XXXX thanks for your comments, I wonder if some of those VFR boys would be so brash if they had to go into Innsbruk..or perhaps Chambery on a crappy minimums day.

Oh well...more multi-PIC it is, better than digging holes for a living.

:)

[Wizofoz]

Chambery!!!! Don't mention Chambery!!!:ooh: :ooh: :ooh:

[maxgrad]

Have we all finished swinging our dikcs around yet?
Seems to me a certain number here are trying to show their field of aviation has greater skill etc etc.
And people wonder why the aviation industry is so fractured.

Do I know why there is a 500 multi com. req? Not a clue, the simple fact is that to work in Australia it is a box that has to be ticked.
Do I think it's a stupid requirement? Have seen some individuals who have been captains on RPT tuboprops in US and moved here. The descisions made by these ones (flying a single piston job), have been sad and at times dangerous. I've also seen cadets show so much polish and ability, to be told they now have to go find 500 multi command.
The answer is relative.

[haughtney1]

As a transplanted Kiwi (who has flown in Oz..in the places we know and love) now flying and loving living in the UK, Im sure at some point there was a valid reason for the 500hr requirement. Now it seems the rule is there to prevent outsiders from gaining employment.
I chuckled when I saw an advert for RFDS PC12 drivers, it asked for the 500hrs hours bit, how absurd :rolleyes:
Come on all you aussie drivers, just because its a tick in the box does that make it relevant?
Flying a Partenavia or C210 up north through the rainy season bears no similarity to true multi-crew Ops on transport catagory aircraft, been there done it..got the T-Shirt, two entirely different skill sets required.
Maxgrad, this is not dick swinging, its about what is relevant and valid today, why shouldn't the rules and regulations be held to account??

[nomorecatering]

doesnt having a high capacity AOC eliminate the requirement for 500 hrs ME Command......eg Qantas with the cadets

[swh]

757manipulator

"even when you lose an engine at rotation (which I did with an aeroplane that weighed around 12000lbs at the time..on an ISA+20 day)"

Please tell me more, I assume you rejected the takeoff and stopped straight ahead, not possible to continue flying in the B200 I flew at that weight and conditions.

haughtney1

"I chuckled when I saw an advert for RFDS PC12 drivers, it asked for the 500hrs hours bit, how absurd"

Insurance requirements are just as valid as regulatory requirements. 757 FO time will not help you do a black hole circling approach to a strip with only emergency flares.

If you have two pilots, who have equal qualifications, one has say 500 PIC twin otter, and the other 1500 hrs PIC 210, which one would you employ to fly a PC12 ?

nomorecatering,

Yes it does, however what one airline values in a pilot varies. What criteria one airline uses is not the same as another.

I have seen this requirement for an airline in the UK for a F/O position "Require 2500-3000 hours total time, to include at least 1500 hours commercial jet time"

Makes 500 multi PIC easy in comparison.

:ok:

[Wizofoz]

Interesting...

Largish single pilot turbines where one part of flying I missed out on. I basically went from piston to jet. Does something like a BE200 not have a V1?

[swh]

Wizofoz,

Its a FAR 23 aircraft, no certification requirement for any climb performance with gear and flap down under FAR 23 in takeoff.

:ok:

[elektra]

I remember many years ago when I joined TAA their then Chief Check and Training Captain Frank Fischer (few of his ilk around these days) telling my course that they had done a lot of research and found that after 8 years as an FO, if you had any potential at all, it didn't matter where you came from or what your experience, you'd still make an equally good captain. As I had very very little time as actual PIC (alone in the LHS with no other pilot on board) this was great news. I think I had (other than dual, ICUS etc) a total of about 200 hrs as "sole pilot" on anything at all when I had the chance for my DC9 command. Passed somehow.

The Chief Pilot on the 777 of the airline where I now work went from an F5 pilot to DC-10 F/O overnight. Coped. I knew numbers of guys in TAA who'd gone from Chipmunks to Viscounts! There'd be a good thread about similar career jumps. I remember many telling me years back that I was almost a lost soul if I didn't have the magic "glass cockpit" experience. Bull... took an hour or two of CBT then all OK.

Yes it is their train set, but don't take it personally. My dad had command of a Lancaster with about 300 hours.

[pakeha-boy]

every bloody airline that I have worked for has had "stupid" requirements.....ie if you cant tick the box you get to stand around like a spare prick at a party!!!!! sort of have to get over mate ...ie their job ,their rules....most are designed to alienate certain groups....looks like it was your day!!!!
By the way boys ...the pissup is at my place,I,llget the piss,the sheilas and the dunny paper....Bring your own condoms :E kapai

[maxgrad]

haughtney1...agree, rules and regs should always be held to account. If they are not valid or have been outdated. In my post I said I had no idea why the req for 500 was there. Would be very interesting to get the answer to that one. Any one know how?

(should have said in original post... The answer is all relative.)

Do pilots who wish to fly in Aust fight this rule? Would it help if they did? Would the bean counters come up with something even more difficult? What time is the party?

[pakeha-boy]

BFB....ya beauuuuty mate...to be honest....my flying and writing skills are up and down like a whores drawers on a saturday night,.........................so I need both to survive....remember John Clarke...aka Fred Dagg....good-mate!!!...puha and pakeha

[flap35]

Just goes to show that the only combination worse than alcohol and flying is australians and flying.

[Br.Muzzy]

Just look at the 500 hour requirement as being the same "hoop" as those ridiculous subjects the Poms want you to pass.
Im with Tinpis on this one, It's frightening to watch some of the overconfidence a few of these "hotshot" FO's have.



Just goes to show that the only combination worse than alcohol and flying is australians and flying.

In future Flap 35, save yourself some typing and abbreviate your post to.... NTA... Nothing To Add.

bbbbbbbbzzzzzzzzzbbbbbbbbzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

[Dehavillanddriver]

The 500 hrs multi PIC is a requirement under CAO 82.3 which covers low capacity operations.

CAO 82.5 which covers high capacity operations has no such restriction.

The requriement (and I assume that the said Australian B737 operator is Virgin) was put in place by the recently ex Chief Pilot.

Interestingly enough the said ex chief pilot, had Ansett had that restriction in place when he joined, would not have qualified.

[tinpis]

Edited: whats the point?:sad:

[justvisual]

Hey Guys, My dusty old CAO's say in CAO 82.3 App 4:

Qualifications of pilot in command for RPT ops in low and high capacity aircraft.

For RPT operations in aeroplanes exceeding 5700kg, To be the Captain you will need to have an Australian ATPL, 2000hrs total, 500hrs pic on multi engine aeroplanes under the IFR, 50hrs on type and 100hrs night.
Co-Pilots need only a Co-Pilot type rating and Co-Pilot Instrument rating.

My CAO's are old but I think thems the rules.........

[PLovett]

As some have pointed out it is a requirement under CAO 82.3.

The more appropriate question is why should there be this archaic stupid requirement in Australia? :confused:

I suggest it is there because of the level of corporate knowledge by our supposedly better informed regulators. :yuk:

The rest of the world gets by quite well without such pieces of idiocy. It is time CASA were told we are no longer operating DC 3s on RPT. :mad:

[Cessna Capt]

Is the 500hr ME PIC requirement something only found in Australia or do other governing authorities overseas have similar requirements?

If these requirements do not exist overseas how does one FO get an upgrade if their countries don't have the opporunity to gain experience on light twins. Does it come down to having an ATPL and time of type as FO? I guess this example also applies to cadets with major international airlines such as SQ CX and EK whos countries have bascially no GA industry.

thanks

CC :D

[bushy]

And general aviation would be much better off, and have a much lower accident rate, if we did not have a lot of airline wannabes who are just here to get 500 twin hours.
Salaries and safety would be much better if we had smaller nunmers of positive people, doing what they want to do.

But our whole aviation system is biassed to favour the "two airlines", and GA is only considered to be a training ground for airline pilots. It is not!!!!

I believe the shonkiest operators in Australi are the city based flying schools that are ripping off the students,.

[nomorecatering]

So what happens when all the Chieftains, Navajos, 402's 404's C310's, Barons, are gone, replaced by the C208 single engine turbine. the old piston twins wont be around for much longer.

[Deaf]

Start Homebuilding

http://flight.cz/cricri/english/cri-cri-photos-pictures-secchi.php

or for jet time

http://www.amtjets.com/gallery_real_plain.html

[CAR256]

No good... Must have been tried.

Our ever sharp regulators have said it don't count as a twin!!!??

Anyone know if centre-line thrust counts?

How many engine failures do the gods think you should average in 500 flying hours in a twin??? (my point being, c-208 would be as quick, heavy, with similar systems to a twin, be it only one...)

[F/O Bloggs]

757,
Mate- Get over it. It is their train set and they get to set the rules. It is all about protectionism, and nothing to do with ones capability for the job. It is no different from an F/A 18 pilot who does not have two crew time or a military instructor on Hawks with no twin time. It does not mean that the individuals concerned are no good for the job.
Hey even I have heaps of jet time in Europe and Mother England, but because I don't have a JAR licence I can't get a job over your way. No use whinging about it, thats life.
Enjoy the impending winter,

Cheerio

Bloggs.

[Herc Jerk]

If the regulators don't mandate a certain minimum requirements the bean counters in some airlines will have an open slather to drive them down as low as possible. This gives them a larger pool of pilots to choose from, which allows them to PAY US LESS.

Does anyone else see this gist of this thread as another example of us selling each other out for short term personal gain?

If you need more multi command for a job, then go out and get it. And while you're at it, do the guys in the trenches a favour and DON'T fly for beer. YAP.

In many ways LCCs can't be compared with CX/QF/EK et al. Regulatory authorities allow for this.

HJ

[DeltaT]

Suggest you get a copy of said airlines Ops manual and read it carefully. Some of them will state that the 500hrs multi PIC time can be waived at the discretion of the Ops Manager.
A nice little clause to help them out in times of need, but of course they won't tell you that!!

[jarjar]

Story goes...I applied to said 737 operator, as an F/O with 2000hrs of heavy jet 757/767 multi-crew experience behind me, only to be told I dont have 500hrs multi-PIC therefore I dont meet the minimum requirements

I believe that this was the initial topic. As someone has mentioned before this is said operators requirement ,not regulatory requirement. I believe alot of people are missing the point, High capacity operators do not need aircrew with 500 pic multi, the definition of high capacity is greater than 38 seats or 4200 kg payload. Lets say your flying from a to b, metro, dash 8(100-200) etc , would you fly in this aircraft if you found out that the captain had 200 multi pic and the new f/o had 50 multi total.

With the training( or lack there of) that some of the low capacity operators around australia give their crews the only thing that helps prevent the pilots hanging off the tail of the plane is that they may have a reasonable level of multi engine experience before they start the job.

Another thing to note, is that unless the rules have changed, in charter category all a pilot needs to command a multi pilot aircraft above 5700kg is an ATPL.(pls correct me if im wrong).

[757manipulator]

SWH....I guess then the B200 I flew had a bit more poke that yours did...or more to the point, the internal seal failure caused the engine to slow to idle, and allowed me to fly away without any VMCA or obstacle clearance issues.

Bloggs yep..and your point?

Im still trying to figure out how 500hrs in a puddle jumper is gonna help me fly a 737 any better?....no ones even been able to convince me yet.

[Boston]

757manipulator.. can you give us a bit more info?

Total Time, Total PIC?? Any Multi-PIC?

[swh]

757manipulator,

Having an engine ticking over at flight idle is not an engine failure, if you consider that losing an engine, I lost both engines every flight. With a real engine failure on the B200 at high weight, high temps, it is not easy, considering autofeather is an optional.

I have flown both -41 and -42 B200s, not aware of any B200 with any more "poke" than the -42, the aircraft also had the 4 blade props and other performance STCs.

Im still trying to figure out how 500hrs in a puddle jumper is gonna help me fly a 737 any better?....no ones even been able to convince me yet.

No one has been able to convince me that a person with 200 hours and 14 JAR subject passes & MCC is more qualified to be an FO on a large jet compared to a person with an ICAO ATPL and several thousand hours.

JAR rules say you must have your 14 subjects and MCC or a JAR ATPL (not considering the validation case).

No one has been able to convince me that making people do 14 subjects if you already have a ICAO ATPL (with even say 10000 hrs FO time on 767's) is anything more than protecting their industry, and a barrier to entry for more experienced pilots.


jarjar

in charter category all a pilot needs to command a multi pilot aircraft above 5700kg is an ATPL.(pls correct me if im wrong).

Your wrong, you can fly a metro, C550 etc single pilot in charter with a CPL.

:ok:

[F/O Bloggs]

oIomanipulator
If you don't get my point then I'm sorry.

I agree with SWH.

Hey 757, how about you get that 500hr multi, and then while you are at it, sit the Aussie ATPL subjects, just so we know you would be capable of flying jets in Australia.

:yuk:

[757manipulator]

Bloggs......I have an NZ ATPL (filled in the form and it became a CASA ATPL with minimal fuss), so no need to sit the Oz subjects..enough said.

SWH, well then I guess as I said, luck...auto-feather was fitted, and as I dont have 500hrs multi PIC its safe to say my skills are inferior to yours...on the subject of JAR..I have to agree with you about the 14 exams, 3 of which are probably relevant..(just sat the law exam as I got the UK exemption and then a JAR license after 500hrs JAR 25 experience) but thats not what I'm on this thread debating...is it? And honestly I cant believe the petty crap that you SWH and Bloggs seem hell bent on spouting off about, get the chips of your shoulders and grow up! its a global market there is no such thing as jobs for the boys anymore:mad:
Yet to have an answer about my original question.

Boston

Nearly 4000hrs TT

1450 PIC of which 350 or so is Multi PIC

A bit over 2000 hrs F/O time 757/767...command upgrade soon if I stay.

:ok:

Also thanks for all the PM's guys..you certainly seem to be right about this subject bringing all the bitterness out of some of the Oz crews.

[jarjar]

Swh

in charter category all a pilot needs to command a multi pilot aircraft above 5700kg is an ATPL.(pls correct me if im wrong).

Read this again, I said MULTI -PILOT Aeroplane

jarJar

[The Messiah]

The replies to this thread, particularly the aggression and elitest attitude of Tinpis, is typical of Australian Aviation and reminds me of why I left.

It really is 'thru the looking glass' down there at the mad hatters tea party.

[maxgrad]

Don't tar us all with the crazed individual brush. Some of us just want to get on with it and then get drunk.
could you turn that roo steak on the barby please.


Jeez!

[ur2]

757,
Why would you want to join an airline facing decline.
Go and get yourself an A320 endorsement and join an airline going ahead.

[Ralph the Bong]

So sad to see the usual boring, moronic sh!t that passes for 'comment' on these pages..:zzz:

When I left Oz 4 years ago I came to realise how much bigger aviation is is other parts of the world. I have flown with guys who went from Mig 21 (900hrs total) to RHS of the B767 with no trouble, because they were smart, motivated and receptive.

I have met people with 10,000+ hours in Australian regional flying THAT I WOULD NOT LEND MY BIKE TO!

The norm overseas is for 250 hr pilots to be employed to fly B757, A320, B146 etc.. and they are able to do this with great success. You do not hear of any safety issues arising from this practice, do you?

Funny to also hear the occassional "get in line" or "join the queue" by those who are flying bugsmashers in outback WA or wherever (as if there is a line or a queue into VB or QF..Ha!).

It is this sort of parochial narrow mindedness that characterises Oz aviation and it is dull. As if 500 hrs flying a C310 around the Bungles makes an aviator : poppycock!:p A lot of this type of flying generates attitudes that have to be unlearned in order to become an effective and safe airline pilot.:suspect:

And yes, I did my time in "the bush"...:cool:

[9Ws]

Please save any further nasty comments... just want an answer from anyone who cares to give give me an unbiased explanation to the following :

Why was I finally invited (last month) by Eastern Australia Airlines for Stage 2 (and perhaps further) of their recruitment process? I do not have 500 hours Multi PIC. Don't they "require" it?

I've got :
4200 hours TT
3800 hours Multi Engine EFIS Turbo-Prop (all F/O)
1100 hours Beech 1900-D (all F/O)
2700 hours ATR 72-500 (all F/O)
5 hours Multi PIC (from my M-E CIR days)

...and of course an Aussie ATPL, Residency and everything else they require...

Were they using that discretionary "waiver" hidden in some airlines' Ops Manuals that most of us know so little about?

Like I said, only answers that would explain it please!

[Ralph the Bong]

WHAT???

Look mate, without that valuable COMMAND time in the gaffa, you are quite obviously a LOOSER. You have to PROVE yourself and DO YOUR TIME in the scrub, like every one else.:rolleyes:

******s like you make me sick.

Who do you think you ARE? Coming in from os with all that experience (not 'real world', obviously, tho).?You have to do your time in the bush and JOIN THE QUEUE like every one else before WE respect you.....;)

Seriously.. I would say that you have got this far because you have relevent experience and demonstrated ability. Nothing more, or less.
:ok:

[Bluebottle]

9Ws....it's probably because all future pilots for the QF regionals have to hold a DHC8 endorsement prior to employment; this has obviously made the job pretty unappealing (understandably) to many people.

[9Ws]

Yeah, but what happens when they select me and those "missing 500 hours" are staring me (and them) in the face?

Won't others want to know why and how I was selected without those precious hours... and lead to a furore in the community... and on Pprune? :confused:

[swh]

757manipulator,

I agree with you it is a global market.

In my view people have jumped to the conclusion that there is a regulatory requirement for the 500 hrs command, I don’t think that is the case, they just set that as something they value from a pilot. I don’t think VB considers itself as an entry level airline.

Whilst you value your jet FO experience, VB obviously value other attributes.

Your situation is not uncommon, I know of pilots with 5-10000 hrs jet command having to go back and do Year 12 maths and physics for another airline to meet the minimum education requirements set by the airline. Also similar in my example of ICAO ATPL holders wanting to gain employment in a JAR regulated country.

Whilst I agree with your case, and those who had to go back and do Year 12 maths and physics would be more than capable of doing the job based upon your experience, I also support the stance the airline has taken.

That being, they have set standards, this is the standard, you are required to meet the standard for consideration.

The minimums at VB and QF are well below levels set by other airlines, they are not at the far extreme.

Some examples for FO consideration minimums elsewhere
Air Malta - 2000 hours TT, 500 hours on A320 with current type rating.
Air Scotland - 1500 hours TT, of 500 hours on B757/767.
Dragonair - 4000 TT, 500 Jet or 1000 Turbo Prop
Emirates - 4000 TT 2000 hours multi-crew and multi engine aircraft.
Excel - fATPL and 1500 hours
Fischer - 500 hours on 737
Flyjet - fATPL and preferably a B757/767 rating, MCC and 1000 hours flying, including 500 hours on multi engined aircraft.
GB Airways - 2000 hours TT to include 1500 commercial jet time
Gulfair - 1500 hours TT of which 500 multi crew turbo prop or heavier
Malaysian - Minimum of 1000 MAS recognised hours and no less than 500 hours on an equivalent or higher type for B737 and a minimum of 500 MAS recognised hours on an equivalent or higher type for F50/DHC6. Between 27 - 45 years of age
Monarch - UK or JAR-FCL, fATPL MCC course and 2500 hours flying experience, of which 500 hours must have been completed on a heavy turboprop or jet in excess of 15 tonnes.
Qatar - 2000 hours (airline time) with 1000 hours time on EFIS equipped medium/heavy jets
Virgin Atlantic - 2500-3000 hours TT to include at least 1500 hours commercial jet time. Full UK or JAR ATPL.

Whilst airlines are able to recruit with the experience levels set, they will remain in force, as market conditions vary, experience levels vary.

jarjar,

As I said you can fly a C550 and other aircraft in Australia single pilot charter, with a CPL. It was certified as minimum 2 pilot aircraft.

To quote the C550 type certificate data sheet A22CE

Minimum Crew For all flights: 2 persons (pilot and co-pilot)

These single pilot operations are not with passengers.

[757manipulator]

SWH..couldnt agree more..the point being is that standard actually valued?..or set as a barrier to those who dont qualify?..just a thought.

UR2.....Ive flown the bus Sim..and I dont like it..just a personal preference thing, I guess Im a boeing man, also Im not about to part with any hard earned flight pay, just so some Lo-Co can line its pockets with an inflated sum for a type-rating. A bond is ok..stumping the cash up isnt.
Ryainair as you well know are now so short of crews that they are trying all sorts of tricks to try and get guys...mostly because IMHO they screwed crews for too long(paying for type-ratings), and now very few experienced pilots want to work for them.

:)

[Sheep Guts]

Ok ok ok Manipulator,
I appologise for my previous post. But you can understand everyones frustrations in this aviation world. How one can get so close but yet so far.You will meet different barriers in different countries. Why? Because they can. I can understand why you want to live in good old Oz. I miss it deerly everyday but I have to pay bills and I have to have secure employment and Oz is becoming a harder place to get that security everyday.

Im not sure how you may improve your predicament. Maybe you could try some of these companies Swh has listed. Im not sure that youll get a command that quickly in VB these days or even QF. I would press on for an Asian position if your that way inclined, then maybe depending on the airline you might get a Command earlier.
Or plan B is you may want to go bush and get some twin command. I know of Ansett cadets who did their time at Kendalls, then took leave without pay to get those Multi -Command time at Charter company. Some of these guys even enjoyed it.
I enjoyed every minute of and still do. The best part of flying is flying all the stuff on the ground is the grin it and bare it stuff.

Sheep .:ok: :O best of luck mate

[The Bullwinkle]

(which I did with an aeroplane that weighed around 12000lbs at the time..on an ISA+20 day) In the U.K. ?????????..........................

Must have been a freaky day all round :ok:

[757manipulator]

:p Bullwinkle...it was in Austria!......not quite Oz

Sheepguts..Im not fussy Ozzy (preferably) but NZ..(No 500hrs req..but chief pilots who look on you as a heratic for leaving in the first place)

[mattyj]

Wanna hear the real secret...?

Nobody likes hiring Aussie bush pilots cause they can't handle the Aircon in the heavy metal..knocks em for 6!! Too cold apparently..

..Take way too many sickies!!:ok:

[pakeha-boy]

757 mate....let me tell you how to do it.....crab a tinnie...scratch your balls,and listen.......I got my licenses in 1976 ...was at lincoln doing a ag sci degree...got a job in hokitika during the deer vension recovery era(end of)...anyway managed to 'steal" a ppl/cpl...time at the wgtn aero club...a yank helicopter pilot taught me how to make houses smaller...tried to get time but to no avail...buggered off to Oz, then to papau new guinea....ended up in Alaska ,enrolled my self as a student at UAA...LIED bigtime about my residense status...told everybody I was an exchange student,false SSN # etc etc...took them 3 yrs to catch me...got caught as an Illlegal alien and sent back to kiwi.......married a shelia(yank) for $2000 plus a car...picked her up hitch hiking around kiwi and let her stay at my mums house ...was flying floats at the time,..got the green card.... came back(alaska) kept flying ...shelia divorced me but still have the green card.... ..this is not a pretty picture...but it is the truth.....since I was born in porirua,didnt go to Auckland boys grammer,didnt personally know the pope ,or have a letter of reccomendation from the governer general,to even think i could do what I,m doing was generally considered a "wet dream".......mate ...my point...sometimes you have do to things that are not conventional.....do I consider myself lucky...**** NO.....it wasnt handed to me on a plate...toughen up mate ....find a way.......IF ANYONE CAN ..A KIWI CAN!!!!!!!!!..pepa wheru wheru

[A37575]

There is a huge over-supply of pilots in Australia and it has always been so. So an arbitrary figure of 500 hours command twins was thought of countless years back by operators as a simple means of culling the numbers - like culling the over-supply of kangaroos (well, it is Australia in'it?)

Then some bright spark thought of further culling by asking for 3,4, or even 5 instrument rating renewals. The fact that the applicant could renew his instrument rating each year without having flown one hour in IMC didn't matter.

A friend of mine applied for Virgin Blue last year and didn't get an interview. Why not? Well he only had 5000 hours of F/O time on B747-400's flying around the world, but without 500 hours command on a Seminole or Apache or similar, he was deemed not acceptable to fly as F/O from Melbourne to Sydney and return in gin clear weather. He is now a 747 captain overseas.

A typical Aussie culling is with the RFDS who demand 500 hours instrument time before a pilot "qualifies" for RFDS status. And all the RFDS is is just another GA outfit. The RFDS bleat incessantly that they cannot find enough experienced pilots. There are a thousand experienced pilots that would welcome a job with the RFDS, but the culling madness prevents them from demonstrating their skills.

There are first officers with Dragonair on the A330 with no more than 300 hours total time and have proved first class crew members with exceptional knowledge and piloting skills. So the hours do not necessarily mean competency. 500 hours command twin in GA usally means you must have broken the rules in order to survive without getting the sack for being straight down the line. Yet some operators remain proud of their insistence of 500 twin command before they give you a job.

[compressor stall]

A small correction to the above - only part of the RFDS requires those high hours...

I know as I got in with 170 hrs IF....(the inflight actual in cloud type of IF to clarify!)

[757manipulator]

What did you drive for the RFDS compressor? and just did my maths...45hrs actual IF...flying jets as opposed to TP's i guess.

[compressor stall]

b200 and pc12.

But...that job's single pilot - you need to compare apples to apples.

But what was of more interest to them was 200 night hours, largely in remote dark places.

[morning mungrel]

Just goes to show you have to be lucky sometimes stallie. I got 2200 hrs night and the 500 I/F, 9 renewals. Can't get a look in........:{

[757manipulator]

Pakeha boy.......as long as you dont drink steinlager..your ok in my book:p

[needajob01]

eh? I have 0 hours in the bus, so I have a chance to be hired, cuz I work for peanuts!!! ;)