Overqualified?

[CheerfulWannabe]

Hi,
Another wannabe here. 30yrs old, MSc in mech.eng. finishing PhD. Working in R&D organization and daydreaming of doing flying for living.

Hear many times I am crazy and that my dreams are signs of lunacy :hmm:

Question is - do prospect airline companies look negative on high education? Why did I take my degrees? I love engineering (MSc part), needed to mature and really learn something (PhD part), work to earn money for proving that I am lunatic :)

Yeah, I know, I have read endless posts, I must expect miserable salary, unemployment for uncertain time, etc. I just wonder if my education is actually negative for future employers :confused:

Thanks

[Bealzebub]

The simple answer is no ! Why would an airline looking for intelligent pilots with a mature attitude and outlook, find a good education to be a negative quality ? Of course no sensible employer would. However you are also looking to aquire a valid set of professional creditionals and probably some credible experience to accompany them. Without these you are unemployable in this market. With them you compete with many others.

So the good news is your education is likely to be viewed positively. The bad news is you are currently very underqualified. The professional qualifications will be an absolute pre-requisite, and the "experience" issue will then become an important balancing factor.

[CheerfulWannabe]

Thanks for the answer! I was afraid that if I put PhD in mech.eng. in my CV they would look at me as if I am idiot :}

[CAP509castaway]

CW,
Have you had a trial lesson yet?If not get down to your local airfield and get up in the air , its the only way to find out if you will enjoy flying.Talk to instructors and get their opinion on your ambitions.
I have a degree and at least it gives you some thing to make your CV stand out from the crowd.:ok:

[CheerfulWannabe]

Follow up of the topic.
Took trial lesson.

Was unfortunate with weather. Clear skies but at ENVA some strong winds at 650ft ors from southeast made for wildride (at least it looked so for me). Yes, I had to use sickbag and was hoping Cessna made strong airframe :}

Besides that it was awesome. I have now taken Class 2 medical and am going for PPL. Hopefully ATPL will be in my pocket one day as well as job :D

[Charlie Zulu]

Hi CheerfulWannabe,

Before you do anything else, go and obtain a JAA Class 1 medical. The standards are a lot tougher than those at your local AME for the initial Class 2. Unfortunately the initial Class 1 Medical has to be done at Gatwick but without the Class 1 you will *not* be able to become a professionally qualified pilot.

It costs around £400 for the initial but its money well spent.

Apart from this, your qualifications are a fantastic quality to add to your CV. It will also give you something to fall back into if, for some reason, you fail your Class 1 medical in the years to come.

Best wishes,

Charlie Zulu.

[Danny_manchester]

Humm, if you have a MSc and a PhD, you must have some sort of brain cell, therefore look at the situation, are you over qualified? I think not, however i think this is just a way of attention seeking.

You will however be underqualified when compared to those who have graduated with degrees such as, MBBS BAO BA, LLB, BDS etc. and there are quite a few people with degrees in medicine, Chemistry, law, physics, dentistry, mathematics etc. who do apply. this will be the time to start thinking and posting "am i underqualified?"

It really irritates me when people post questions that they know the answer to, and are just looking to gloat, but as you will know, a degree in engineering is not as impressive as any of the above!
Maybe usefull for a job in engineering, but as i have heard it referred to as a useless degree, give the major airlines degrees in sciences anyday :D.

Hope you people understand my post.

[Pole Hill]

Danny_manchester,
It really irritates me when people post questions that they know the answer to, and are just looking to gloat,
I find people irritating that post untrue facts motivated by unnecessary anger.
It may seem like a silly question to a person that has some experience of aviation, but to a newcomer it is not. Being overqualified is a real problem in other industry's.

You will however be underqualified when compared to those who have graduated with degrees such as, MBBS BAO BA, LLB, BDS etc. and there are quite a few people with degrees in medicine, Chemistry, law, physics, dentistry, mathematics etc. who do apply. this will be the time to start thinking and posting "am i underqualified?"
So an Engineering degree is seen in as derogatory? I suggest that you speak to the people that recruit pilots...
A degree may have some bearing, but there is much more emphasis on your flying qualifactions and experience. There will be more emphasis (but generally not mandatory) on the degree if you are looking for sponsorship, but at 30 sponsorship is not an option to the best of my knowledge.

Hope you people understand my post.
You people? :rolleyes:

Good luck to you CheerfulWannabe
POL (First Class Honours Degree in Electronic Engineering):)

[Danny_manchester]

I think you can understand that if somebody has a degree in physics, it would be much more desireable than a degree in any type of engineering.

Come on, if 2 pilots share the same flight experience, would an airline recruit somebody with a degree which can be obtained by somebody with minimal qualifications, or a degree in lets say physics, which is a lot harder to pass than engineering. *(Experience of a uncle with a Eng. degree, and his wife with a BDS degree.)

If you are a direct entry pilot, your credentials are extreamly important, and i think you will find if you would have spoken to the airlines before your degrees, they would have advised you to take a strong academic subject.

1st class is not much to be impressed by, if it was in EEng. i mean how hard can it be? compared to strong academic subject, the answer is .................... Not very. Please refrain from showing off, when there is nothing to show off about.

regards.

Also, please be kind enough to point out where my anger is coming from? I think that you will find that it is more moronic people who should read up on the simple things in life such as REQUIREMENTS FOR DIRECT ENT. PILOTS. there is no such thing as being over qualified for any position, oh .............. possible if a doctor were to apply for an Engineering degree. :D

[portsharbourflyer]

Danny Manchester, I see from your post you have no knowledge of Engineering. Engineering is applied maths and physics, anyone who can study engineering could study physics and vice versa. Infact it is possible to be awarded either BSc or a BEng in engineering, beleive it or not the BEng is regarded as a step above the BSc, an engineer holding a BSc would need to sit engineering council exams to gain chartership, until very recently a BEng would have provided exemption from these exams.

Engineering is the application of science and maths, using a subject in an applied manner provides more challenges than studying a standalone academic subject. A mathematician can explain a triple integral, but an engineer must be able to understand the physical concepts, use the maths and interpret it to the real world. At Loughborough engineering degrees had considerable more hours on the course than the other subjects.

Airlines disregard engineering, five of my course colleagues were part sponsored by airlines. My own forthcoming airline interview was gained on the grounds of my engineering background. Please before posting base your statements on personal experience, or fact not hear-say statements from ones uncle or aunt.

[1pudding1]

Gotta agree with portsharbourflyer here, Danny you sound like youve got no idea what you're talking about. Dont know if you genuinely believe that engineering is so much below and worth less than the other subjects you mention, or if you're just trying to wind people up? I hope its the latter for your sake.

CheerfulWannabe, no you're not overqualified, but be prepared to explain why you wanted to do a PhD rather than actually start flying and gaining experience.

[CheerfulWannabe]

1pudding1 thanks that is what I was thinking myself. "Why did you do PhD and not go straight for flying?"

Manchester: my post was not attention seeking. I have seen many of my friends with done PhD that could NOT find job in industry since they are overqualified. I will not go into your comments about the knowledge of and MSc.eng. (mechanical engineering). Due to the problems my friends had in industry I was posing the question as it is perhaps even more relevant if I will go outside the industry.

Thanks for support people!

[Luke SkyToddler]

Bah humbug

speaking as a professional pilot, who dropped out of university so badly I'm banned from re-enrolling even to finish off my mediocre arts degree ...

... and thinking about a job interview I did a couple of years ago, where final selection came down to me and another bloke with similar hours who had (I sh!t you not) a PhD in nuclear physics ...

guess who got the job?

Me

... because I had no notice period at present employer and the other guy did.

There are about 990000000 other things more important to potential employers, than your other non-aviation-relevant qualifications from your previous careers :zzz:

[Bahn-Jeaux]

I agree with portsharbourflyer too.

I dont have a degree in engineering but did a Btech in Engineering technology, a far lesser qualification

It consisted of Maths, Physics, Electrics, Mechanics and Dynamics.

Never saw a hammer or spanner once during the 2 years I was studying but did test metals for elasticity, bending and shear and other associated disciplines which some seem to think isnt academic.

I am now a humble Reactor operator because of my inferior brain power.

My Motto?

I'm not very clevah but I can lift 'eavy fings

[Danny_manchester]

Damn, i cannot understand some people, i think you will find that engineering may consist of physics and mathematics, but in engineering you will not come across anything that is contained in the pure mathematics or pure physics degree. It is like saying say you did a degree in psychology, you had to work out percentages .......... hardly solid mathematics is it. most subjects contain sections from other studies, however the physics you encounterd in engineering is nothing to that of a pure physics degree. Simple fact.

Also the guy with the Btech, i think that is a college degree? which require enterance requirements of something such as 4 C\'s or D\'s at O level?

Inferior brain power? you said it.

[What's a Girdler]

Danny M,

Utter Bollocks!!! What sort of career would having a degree in pure maths give you!! I am an engineer, I have a degree in engineering, Aerospace engineering. It was bloody difficult, and got me a job which is paying for my training, where I can also afford to have a life outside of flying too. Why don't you get with the real worl, nobody cares what you think, and grow up. You are opbviously only a nipper and one day you'll realise that qualifications, especially in pure maths mean diddly squat. In answer to the original post no qualification is too much and every little helps.

WAG

[Danny_manchester]

Refrain from the bad language, i think you will find that employers look for the best education in a pilot thats possible, and that a neuclear physics degree is a lot more impressive than a BTEC in engineering studies, or eaven a PhD in it. I plan to study medicine, and then apply for sponsorship, and i know that i will be a lot better off taking medicine that engineering!

[G-DANM]

danny_manchester, you have almost always to pass personality tests as part of selection to ensure you can work in co-operation with your flight crew partner, flight attendants, dispatchers etc. From the sounds of your posts it sounds like you generally believe that those taking engineering degrees are intellectually inferior to you. This attitude will therefore probably carry into how you act towards said people and so how are you going to treat an Avionics engineer come to fix your AP? I'd like to see the panic on your face when he fails to help you as you have treated him as an inferior, and your left with a plane full of rowdy holiday makers August Bank Holiday at Heathrow with a slot to keep! This of course if an airline actually wishes to employ someone with such a pompus attitude, that will be glaringly obvious from your personality assesment.

I looked at the careers dept at Loughborough University what the employment figures were for last year (loughborough has the second highest graduate employment rate). Engineering 68% employment, Sciences 60%. Enough said. Oh and tell me one airline that specifies a science degree, most barely specify A-Level subjects.

I like the fact you are going to apply for sponsorship, from whom may I ask?

[Bahn-Jeaux]

Well Danny_Manchester, you are partly correct.
Btech is equivalent to 2 A levels and is not a degree of any sort.

Couple of things, I used that to show you that a degree in engineering is indeed an academic subject and as maths and physics featured heavily in that 'lowly' qualification it is only reasonable to expect those subjects to feature at an advanced level in a degree course.

As to qualifications, I did my O and A levels at a time when they actually meant something and judging by your spelling, are you sure a career in medicine would be wise? I wouldnt want a prescription from you as I couldnt be sure I was getting the right treatment.

You really do seem to have a holier than thou attitude and I am sure it will win you a whole lot of no friends as you progress through life.

You know next to nothing about anyone on here yet you make sweeping judgements of abilities and intellect.

You really must be superior.

[Pole Hill]

Danny_manchester,
and i know that i will be a lot better off taking medicine that engineering
What a numpty.
From this thread, it is obvious that you do not know your facts. You could have the best degree in the world with the best classification, but nothing will help you with an attitude like yours. The fact is, with an attitude like yours you will never make it as flight crew.
Its a BEng by the way, and I'm not showing off, I had to work damn hard to get that degree and classification.

POL

[redsnail]

Given the general tone of "Danny_manchester's" posts, I'd say he's wind up merchant.

[Luke SkyToddler]

Danny mate ...

I can see where you're coming from. I can also see why the other participants in this thread are getting p!ssed off at you :)

since you appear to be significantly younger than the other people on this thread, and since your plan is to study medicine, and then apply for sponsorship let me give you some advice that will save you a LOT of heartache.

Don't spend your time winding up grown-ups on pprune about the relative merits of their degrees which, for all I have no doubt their holders are rightly proud of and worked very hard for, what we have here are a bunch of older wannabes trying to kid themselves that their qualifications from their previous life are in some way relevant to their current desire to fly planes. They aren't.

The whole lot of you here are bickering over something that is hugely unimportant to the vast majority of aviation employers in the modern era of low cost, high density, high competition airlines where pilot training is now outsourced to the lowest bidder, pilots are viewed in the best case as a necessary commodity to be purchased at lowest possible cost, and at worst as just another income stream for the company.

Perhaps things were different 40 years ago but these days money talks the loudest, ability to kiss ass and network and being in the right place at the right time comes second, hours in logbook of course, and somewhere at the back of the field is non-aviation-specific educational attainment. Sad but true, however I guess it's human nature to try and tell yourself otherwise when you have spent the best years of your life getting a qualification for a job that you no longer wish to pursue.

Anyway danny if, as I suspect, you have 10 years of youth on your side compared to your protagonists here, then you already have something that will kick the ass of everyone else in this thread when it comes to dishing out the flying jobs.

Don't squander that precious advantage by doing something as utterly pointless as a medicine degree if your plan is only to go and start applying for sponsorships anyway.

When my kids are grown up enough to start leaving school and thinking perhaps they'd like to be a pilot like their dad, there's no way they will be rushing off to enrol in any masters degree in engineering or physics or medicine or anything else.

They'll be p!ssing off and WORKING in the best paying manual-labor job they can find for two or three years, or as long as it takes for them to save the necessary capital to go and buy that CPL / IR / MCC / type rating / whatever other necessary aviation related qualifications the 21st century wannabe has to prostitute themselves for in order to get into a shiny jet while still young.

They will probably be still in their early twenties with 40+ years of enjoyable flying to look forward to without the burden of either a useless qualification or a mountain of debt.

Think about it.

[portsharbourflyer]

Sorry I to need explain a few more facts to DM.
Danny Manchester, you are obviously an a level student, if you want to progress in flying you need to learn to take advice from more experienced people. I can assure you an engineering degree requires understanding of every single method a pure maths degree student would study. Take our fellow poster with the electronic engineering degree, a pure maths student would learn the Fourier series as a mathematical method, an electronic engineering graduate would need to learn the Fourier series, then learn to apply it as signal analysis method. The theory subjects at Degree level engineering is (I shall state once more) are essentially applied degree level maths. All engineering graduates could happily complete a pure maths degree. Do not degrade engineers at any level, technician or graduate all are necessary to keep aircraft flying.

Luke Sky Toddler, just wish to iterate to you that my engineering degree has gained me an interview for a second officers position. Agreed Luke Sky Toddler, you can earn just as much money working as an electrician, plumber or plasterer these days; for a perspective trainee pilot these would be very good trades to follow. But on the argument that earning money to fund training is a prime factor; then seeking employment in the finance sector could also be a valid move. As such engineering graduates when I graduated were sought after by ?gfinance companies?h, because it was known that an engineer?fs numerical analysis skill were easily adapted to the finance trade. Plus still in my late twenties (obtained fATPL shortly before 27th birthday)I don?ft consider myself an old ?gwannabee?h, my so called useless qualification as you term it LS, is currently earning me 50000 a year.

[Luke SkyToddler]

Fair cop :eek:

Well then let me give YOU some advice ...

Stay in engineering, keep earning that £50 grand per annum, buy into a warbird syndicate and don't touch commercial flying with a 40 foot pole!!

[scroggs]

Danny, shut up and get on with your study. You are interfering in a discussion you appear underqualified to participate in. As has often been said, it is better to keep quiet and let people think you are an idiot than to open your mouth and prove it. You are well on your way to proving it...

Overqualification is a problem in many industries because of the narrow definitions of the requirements for most management positions. Piloting is rather different. It is far better to think of the ATPL as the enabling qualification, and of all before it as background experience. As yet, there is no requirement to have any formal qualification before beginning your ATPL studies, yet the job itself requires considerable intelligence, resourcefulness, common sense, technical facility and motor skills. The motor skills can be acquired with some practice, if a minimum innate talent exists, and your intelligence is decided well before you have a chance to influence it, but all the rest can be acquired through a variety of routes. To date, the industry is pretty open-minded about the individuals it employs to fly aeroplanes, as the phenomenally wide range of backgrounds of my colleagues testifies.

Basically, don't worry about it!

Scroggs

[portsharbourflyer]

Apologises for taking this thread on a tangent about the value of engineering and apologises for the slightly arrogant last response from myself.

LS, I should follow my own words and listen to those with more experience, however as nice as a warbird syndicate would be, I think a 500,000 a year income may be needed to support that one. Well my barge pole has shrunk from 40ft to 2 ft and I will continue to see that is gets shorter every day.

Anyway point made, thankfully Scroggs has provided the rational answer to the original question.

[powdermonkey]

Luke SkyToddler

quote:

Stay in engineering, keep earning that £50 grand per annum, buy into a warbird syndicate and don't touch commercial flying with a 40 foot pole!!

what we have here are a bunch of older wannabes trying to kid themselves that their qualifications from their previous life are in some way relevant to their current desire to fly planes. They aren't.


You sound about as arrogant and pompous as Danny-Manchester
Who are you to tell anyone to stay away from aviation!?

Now, a specific degree is not the deciding factor in aviation, but your background and personality do count for a lot, so simply stated, us complete older idiots trying to convince ourselves our previous education is relevant, are not entirely wrong mate, it does show that you have the ability to get through a course and stick to it, which would indicate to a would be employer that you have a serious approach to your chosen career!! But you do not need to be a doctor or an engineer, you do however have to have flying skills and the right personality above anything else.
As for the attitude, well that's a sure way of screwing up the interview.

As for Danny-M 's attitude.............bless him:rolleyes:

[What's a Girdler]

Right then here goes to all the negative people who have put something of little value to this thread;

I am an engineer earning the £40-50K range as stated by LS, however, i am very bored, sitting behind a desk and staring at a PC all day, that's not what I want to do though, so I need a career change. I am not a 'wannabe kidding myself' but a 28 year old who is in need of doing something out of the ordinary, I am fully aware of what this entails.

My degree got me where I am now, but I am now doing whatever to get the qualifications to fly for a living. So that means that I have even more qualifications. When i finally get bored with the daily trudge of flying I can then use all my experience and qualifications to get back into engineering in my dream job of air accident investigation; now is that kidding myself or is that realistic??

[nuclear weapon]

luke sky toddler,
I think your name says it you are a toddler. Like some of the guys here I have a degree in computer aided engineering. Lots of money potencial I worked for an agency for three years and managed to buy two properties from it. The manager even offered me a permanent job but like some people reading this I found it hard to think I will spend the next 20+ years staring at computer screens. That was three years ago. Both properties have doubled in value and that is the only way I've been able to afford my dream. If not for the money I've spent on the course so far chasing my dream I definately would have built up a larger property portfolio. So while you are advising portsharbourflyer not to touch aviation becauce he's already earning a lot of money .You should understand money is not everything in life.
While I was at bristol ground school last year and early this year I often ask people what sacrifices they made to pursue thier dream of flying. In most of the cases they all left comfortable and well paying jobs. Quite a few sold some of thier properties A degree may not be important to the guy interviewing you but the fact that you were able to stick to it to the end says a lot and it does help in the way you view life at least in my case. I have close friends who are making a lot more money buying and selling properties than most pilots earn in a year. But if anyone out there has dreams of flying my advice is to go for it.
I will be far more satisfied to try my best and not succeed rather than look back later in life and wonder what would have happened if I had tried.
good luck.

[scroggs]

There are many potential pilots who believe that an engineering, or engineering-based, degree will give them some kind of advantage at interview. Unfortunately (for them) this isn't the case; the vast majority of pilot employers will not give any special credence to any given degree.

To address the problem of the older wannabe: when an employer is presented with a guy in his late 30s (say) who has little in the way of aviation experience to support his application, we are going to look at what else he's done with his life. I've mentioned in an earlier post on this thread some of the qualities we look for, and evidence of achievement and ability in a previous career is going to weigh in your favour with the larger airlines - if that is where you're looking to go. For those looking at smaller employers, of course these organisations need to look at getting the most value for their money and so they will concentrate far more on whether you can do the job of flying their aeroplanes at the least cost to the employer. For them, previous non-flying experience will be less significant than it would be for the larger airlines.

All that said, I'm not sure that you should let any of this kind of speculation affect your decision making. Only you can say what your motivation is, and how much you need to leave your current direction. Whether flying, and in particular airline flying, is the right way to go, again only you can say. It's true that once the initial honeymoon period is over, this industry has as many warts as any other, and you may find you've gone from the frying pan to the fire! It's also true that if it's flying that inspires you, rather than the airline industry, you may get more fulfilment from flying interesting aeroplanes privately than from flying airliners for money.

Scroggs

[Pole Hill]

There are many potential pilots who believe that an engineering, or engineering-based, degree will give them some kind of advantage at interview. Unfortunately (for them) this isn't the case; the vast majority of pilot employers will not give any special credence to any given degree.

I think that the moral of the story is do your research; before I embarked upon my degree course I spoke to quite a few airlines and learnt this: for the direct entry pilot (i.e not sponsorship), a degree will not be of a great benefit - there will be much more focus on flying experience/qualifications, BUT from undertaking a degree you may become a more mature and have a more 'rounded' personality.
I've just graduated this year, and I couldn't see myself earning £50K even when I am 30 like other people on here seem to be doing. Am I in the wrong industry or what?! :{ That doesn't matter though, I'll only be doing the job until I've saved up for the CPL/IR. :)
Best regards to all,

POL

[Grass strip basher]

Danny_Manchester

Just read your post again.... You have to be a wind-up merchant because nobody who is looking to study medicine can be THAT stupid to genuinely believe what you wrote!

I found it funny anyway (and I have an engineering degree.... turned down a place a medical school... all old folk and poo... but hey whatever floats your boat!).

[nuclear weapon]

To back up what scroggs said about degree not beign important. I had a lengthy chat with a very rich guy at my school today who has lots of friends in the industry and was planning to retire to Africa and start his own tourist flying buisness. He told me very recently an airline needed four pilots and they approached oxford aviation and asked for four students with the highest marks in thier atpl exams.
While I am not a recruiter I am a bit puzzled as I would have thought a first time pass in all your flying tests (ppl, imc, cpl,ir) in minimum time should trump high ground school marks. I have met a couple of oxford student who did not pass thier ir first time.
And I personally know a couple of guys who had three attempts on some atpl subjects as I am sure some of you reading this do.
I think a combination of the two should be used rather than simply high marks.

[George Semel]

Nope its not going to hurt you at all, you will stand out from the one with aviation basket weaving degrees. And being able to make a living doing other things will not hurt you, should the flying not pan out.

[CheerfulWannabe]

I wish to thank you all for good comments and advices. I will keep them all in mind.

Thanks again.

[D'vay]

I do enjoy these debates. If I may play the role of umpire for a moment, Danny old chap, you appear to be fighting a losing battle. Your arguement if I may quote blackadder, series four and the episode named "goodbyeeee".
"It started badly, then it tailed off towards the middle, and the less said about the ending the better."
Look, Cheerful_Wannabe is one of the good guys he wants to be a pilot. New pilots are apprehensive and fearful about the future. Danny Encourage anyone else who seeks advice and above all, have the decency to apologise to cheerful_wannabe.
I have faith that you will do the right thing.
Cheerful_wannabe, I suggest that you speak to Yuri at riverside flight centre in Tulsa. No nonsense, fair, fun and friendly flying. Top quality instruction and cheaper than anywhere else. I just got my ppl here and I'm coming back in for the long haul after ATPL in Glasgow. Good luck