Scenic views out the office window

[WSO1]

If I take photos out of the "office window"whilst "taking in the scenery at 7 miles a minute" or take photos of the "company transport" on the ground, who owns the copyright to the photos if I sell them? Do I need to ask permission to print them? Does Auntie Liz get a share of any money I make? A company has just seen my portfolio and wants to give me oodles of cash (almost as much as flying pay!)...

[Fg Off Bloggs]

I think QRs or SSOs state that you must seek the Staish's permission to take on "additional employment" whilst working for HMQ. I suspect that the purveying of photos taken whilst earning a crust in the back seat of a Tonka might just be construed as that, or worse! Perhaps, misappropriation of HMQ's time. Perhaps, adopting an attitude whilst airborne that might constitute a FS hazard! Whatever, somebody somewhere is going to take a different view (no pun) than you to your new found fortune and fame!

Whatever you do, I would consult QRs, speak to P1 and take no further action until you have ascertained that you ain't going to end up with oodles of cash and a court martial to prove how you earned it!

[Davy_MC]

I would suggest that you accept the oodles of cash and then donate it all to SSAFA, British Legion or another worthy service based charity; perhaps minus a SMALL percentage to offset cost of developing and printing etc. That way you get your portfoliio published and do some good.

I'm not familiar with the rules, but have always thought that making money by taking photos out of a service a/c would be frowned upon. After all, it was the taxpayer who payed for all of that airborne time.

[BEagle]

Yes, there is indeed an official way of requesting approval to take on out-of-hours employment ('moonlighting'). I did - by waiting until a mate was acting Sqn boss, then getting it stamped by the Stn Cdr. Made a few pennies; then in the 28 days before my retirement date I ramped up the arrangement as one is permitted to do....before continuing as a paid consultant the verynext day.

A few years earlier I took quite a few piccies for a hobby; no-one objected when I asked whether it was OK to get paid for them to be used in AirForces Monthly. Later, some ADC said that an AOC wanted "A few more modern aircraft pictures on the walls of HQ ** Gp" and said that he heard that I had taken some, therefore could he have some 16 x 12 copies. "Sure - who's paying?" I asked. He then burbled on about Crown Copyright etc - until I told him "Sorry, they were 35mm slides, not negatives. If you want Cibachrome prints, they'll have to be done commercially and you can either pay up or f*ck off!"

He never did get his prints.

[Impiger]

Not sure on the copyright bit but a word on advance planning if you intend to charge and then donate the proceeds to charity such as RAFBF. Snag is if the cash goes through your account those nice chaps at the Inland Revenue say it is income and tax you. The fact that you pass on the same amount to charity is your own affair. How do I know this trivia? Well once worked for a very high priced individual who submitted an article to the professional press and was, surprisingly, paid. Passed the cash to Army Ben Fund but because the publishers had declared the payment as an expense to themselves the tax man promptly asked for his cut from my boss. Guess who was tasked to sort it out ... and who actually wrote the article in the first place:(

[Jackonicko]

Don't expect staggering riches for aircraft pictures.

Ian B**** (Lightning/F3), Chris A**** (ditto, I think), and Mike R**** (Jag) might have useful advice, since all have done it in the past.

PM me if you think a working aviation journo can help.

[Climebear]

Oh to have an office (or any other kind - excluding Microsoft - of ) window to the outside world.

[Ewan Whosearmy]

Jacko,

What's with all the ***** business? Those guys have their names in books all over the place.

[Two's in]

...and don't forget that "at the subsequent Board of Inquiry" said pictures usually become exhibit A for the prosecution - sorry, the Board. Happened to a couple of guys in GW1, who having completed Exercise 47 (wazzing and zooming) proceeded to park the Helicopter all over the Desert. Bloggs had been taking happing snappy's out of the window during the "Airshow" and provided all the evidence needed for self Petard Hoisting.

[wg13_dummy]

......Sooty was let off with a warning though.:hmm:

[frodo_monkey]

WSO1, I'm guessing our offices are rather similar...

According to one of my squadron mates there is a website on t'internet to where you can upload photos with a price attached, so if any magazines etc want them they click 'Pay' and you get the dosh - anybody have any further details?

By the way, if anybody wants to look at some of my 'handiwork' from the office window, check out the RAF website and look under 'Latest Images'... I reckon I must be good to sell a few having given some away for free!

Frodo_Monkey :cool:

I may as well be the first to whack up a piccy...

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a282/frodo_monkey/P5100042.jpg

Hows that for a starter?

F_M

PS I made sure it was a \'10 for you BEags!

[Two's in]

WG13 - Only because he wasn't TQ'd...

[Devil's Aardvark 8]

Nice shot! Very atmospheric!

As for the 'legallity of it all'. Its worth a close look at each picture to check for those added extra boxes that didn't used to be there.
I seem to remember a certain Buccaneer nav who took a belting picture of one of his mates riding the ground effect while on a JMC. Poor chap was hauled over the coals 'cos 'arry Staish didn't think the camera was cleared for flight and was mighty p#$%&d-off at the No 2 for flying below msd.

Spoil Sports!
Still, if we didn't have the photos no-one would believe us.

[Fg Off Bloggs]

Two's In,

Bloggs had been taking happing snappy's out of the window during the "Airshow"

No I hadn't! I deny it! It wasn't me! I don't have a camera!

Bloggs

[Duncan D'Sorderlee]

Mrs D'Sorderlee (an ex-RAF Photo 'G') believes that the relevant details will be available in the 1988 Copyright Act (Photography) (sic). However, she is also of the opinion that, as you were on duty at the time, in a Service ac, technically the copyright belongs to the employer, although you would own the negatives.


Oops!

[Pierre Argh]

I'm guessing your photos are taken in the UK?

Beware, Internationally, copyright Law for photographs is quite complex... in France, for example (probably worst case scenario). If you take a holiday snap of, say, an Airbus parked at Charles De Gaul Airport. To protect copyright and human rights... Before you can publish (or sell) your picture you'd need the approval of every single person in the picture, the Airport and Airbus (and probably the ground equipment manufacturers), the architect of the building/airport as well as the aircraft/equipment designers

Best to enjoy your pictures for the memories and try not to make an extra buck... unless you want to give up the flying suit and take up "snapping" professionally.

[BEagle]

Nice shot, Frodo_Monkey, - pity it wasn't a proper VC10 tanker though!

And beware of taking videos of Harrier mates in case someone accuses you of paedophilia!

:p

[EESDL]

Bit of a red herring re tax me thinks.
Do the QR910 thing, set yourself up as a company, preferably with your missus as majority partner, after write-offs you'll be doing well to make a taxable profit from selling some pics!!
Especially if you're only a 10% partner.

[Big Cat Handler]

Don't forget that if you give the money to charity as Gift Aid then you/they get the tax back in the end. For example, if you receive £100, the Revenue take £40 of it, you then give the remaining £60 to the charity. They claim back some of the tax and you can get the remainder back in your tax return. And give that to them too, if you're feeling generous.

Edited when my sums didn't add up!

[old developer]

"Mrs D'Sorderlee (an ex-RAF Photo 'G') believes that the relevant details will be available in the 1988 Copyright Act (Photography) (sic). However, she is also of the opinion that, as you were on duty at the time, in a Service ac, technically the copyright belongs to the employer, although you would own the negatives."


Spot on, the pics would be "Crown Copyright"

[ExGrunt]

While looking for something completely different, I tripped over this from the "Civil Service Mangement Code" - see:

http://www.civilservice.gov.uk/management_information/management/management_code/publications/pdf/csmc_march05.pdf

Crown copyright

4.2.11 By virtue of the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, works made by civil servants in the course of their official duties are subject to Crown copyright protection. The responsibility for the management and licensing of Crown copyright rests with the Controller of Her Majesty’s Stationery Office (HMSO) in her capacity as Queen’s Printer for works produced by UK Government departments, Northern Ireland departments and the National Assembly for Wales. For works produced by the Scottish Administration, the responsibility for management and licensing rests with the Queen’s Printer for Scotland in accordance with the Scotland Act 1998. The Controller of HMSO, in her roles as Queen’s Printer, and the Queen’s Printer for Scotland, authorises the Copyright Unit of HMSO to administer the respective Crown copyrights on her behalf.

4.2.12 Civil servants must obtain the prior approval of their Head of Department or Agency Chief Executive before entering into any arrangements regarding the publication or dissemination of any Crown copyright protected material by private sector publishers or information providers. Such arrangements would usually be the subject of specific licensing, to be handled by HMSO’s Copyright Unit. This would not apply in the following circumstances:

a. where material is to be published in learned journals or in the proceedings of conferences or seminars;
b. where the material in question is to be published in an official, authorised work specifically on behalf of the originating department or agency; or
c. where the department or agency is authorised to license the material under specific delegated authority issued by the Controller of HMSO or the Queen’s Printer for Scotland.

4.2.13 Where departments and agencies are authorised to license the reproduction of Crown copyright protected material which they originate, under the cases specified in paragraph 4.2.11 above, they must ensure that:

a. there is an obligation placed on the publisher to acknowledge the Crown copyright source material;
b. Crown copyright is not assigned to the publisher; and
c. that the material is licensed on non-exclusive terms.

4.2.14 Crown copyright is not an issue if a civil servant produces a copyright work unconnected with their official duties and entirely in their own time. If, however, the work in question is linked to their official duties, they should in the first instance consult their Director of Personnel or the Head of their Department or Agency, who in turn may need to consult HMSO’s Copyright Unit. Under these circumstances, the following factors need to be taken into account:

a. whether the civil servant produced the work during official time;
b. whether the work is based on existing Crown copyright source documents; and
c. whether there are security considerations.

4.2.15 If a civil servant writes a book in their own time, which is unrelated to their official duties, but wishes to incorporate extracts of Crown copyright protected material within the work, permission to reproduce the material should be obtained from HMSO’s Copyright Unit. It is customary in such cases for the licence to be granted in favour of the publisher rather than the author, as it is the publisher which is reproducing the material. It is permissible for the author to submit the application on the publisher’s behalf. Where an individual is on secondment outside the Civil Service, copyright in any work which they produce during the term of their secondment will rest with their host organisation unless otherwise agreed.

4.2.16 A series of Guidance Notes on various aspects relating to copyright and official publishing can be obtained from the HMSO, Cabinet Office, or via their Website at http://www.hmso.gov.uk/guides.htm.
Not very positive, but seems to cover it.

[YellowBelly]

Anyone able to provide 'plain english' instructions on how to post photo's on pprune replies? Looked at the help page for vB code (whatever that is) and its all 'gobble the duke'.

[Rakshasa]

If my HTML-Fu is good for this site too. you should be able to post via [ IMG ] [ / IMG ] for something already uploaded (just paste in the pic's URL and get rid of the spaces)
If not you'll need to to find web space to upload it as I dont think PPruNe allows attachment uploads.

[Regie Mental]

The plain answer is that any photo's you take in uniform are Crown Copyright and you are not entitled to be paid for them.

If an image is classed as being a 'news item' then no charge is levied for Crown Copyright images but if not then they wack on the fees. The result is that less Crown Copyright images now get used, magazines finding it cheaper to send along their own photographer for the day rather than use images from the station photographers. They also now charge for filming for documentaries - I believe Discovery Wings had to pay to film at Brize for a documentary on the VC.10 despite the undoubted good PR this generated for the RAF.

In practice however I don't know of anyone who has been pulled up for this. Ian Black, among others, produced a number of excellent books filled with images that the public simply would not have seen otherwise.

If in doubt ask the editor to not print your name or print a pseudonym! :cool:

[BEagle]

All, no doubt, part of the infamous greed of so-called 'Wider Marketing Initiatives' which in this case would exploit your talent whilst refusing to pay you a single penny for it.

When will the Ministry of Madness wake up to the fact that their shareholders (the gen pub) shouldn't be ripped-off for simple services - such as journos filming from an a/c. I'm pretty sure that DPR invited ITN, BBC, Aviation Week, Flight, TASS et al. to film the first Mig 27s to enter UK airspace from the VC10K I was flying; I doubt whether they had to pay for the privilege!

[Gainesy]

29s Beags.

DPR (can't remember which one, possibly Mike Barnes?) thought it "a jolly good idea" after I suggested it to him.

Original plan was simply to stick Janice in a Hawk to accompany the F.3s meeting the MiG mates, but it snowballed a tad.

We (Flight International) did not pay for flights or Crown Copyright pics then, though I would usually put on a barrel as a thank you to the unit that hosted us.

[BEagle]

No, it was long before Mike B! Hunter, I think? I was told by my Flt Cdr to keep it secret, so only the crew and the deputy Stn PRO ('Melons') were in on it for a while (which stopped the Boss, Jim 'Updick' from pinching my trip!). Then we were told that DPR might be coming - and the whole thing went supercritical. Fortunately, in the end he didn't!

The delights of Janet pressed firmly against my left shoulder as she squirmed about to secure the best angle (photgraphic!) from the captain's DV window for her piccies are still excellent memories of that day. As is the Flight International filofax she sent on to me after 3 of us bumped into her and scrounged admission to the Flight pavilion at the following Farnborough! It's useful having a rogue like RFK as a co-pilot in such circumstances as he can charm birds from trees and knickers from nuns!

Yes, MiG 29s. Silly typo!