9/11 Not as it seems??

[k1rb5]

Take a look at this..........

http://www.pentagonstrike.co.uk/flash.htm#Main

[SASless]

I have a dear friend that was involved in the crime scene search there....did some of the bagging and tagging of body parts and other evidence. I will forward this to him for his comment....and let you know what he has to say about it.

He has never said anything to suggest other than the account as published in the 911 commission report.

Nice video though that raises good questions.

One question I ask.....if buildings do not eat airplanes as they suggest...we have video of the two airplanes striking the WTC buildings...particularly the second aircraft. Did not the WTC building eat those two as well?

The Pentagon burned for two days....seems like a pretty hot and large fire....could it have been caused by the missing 5300 gallons of fuel?

If you are suicidal....would you be able to "fly" an airplane in a manner that non-suicidal pilots would not? Even if you were not a true pilot?

Conspiracies.....I love'em!

[XV277]

Oh god, not that again. Obviously written by someone who hasn't seen what happens when you crash an aluminium tube into the ground at high speed

[Navaleye]

Its really quite simple, if it wasn't the 757 as explained by the report, where is that a/c and the people on it? It must be low on fuel by now. IIRC it hit a helo on a landing pad killing a general and its crew who had just touched down.

[The Rocket]

This video of an F4 being propelled into a concrete wall at the Sandia National Laboratories test site will give you conspiracy thoerists some idea of what happens to an aircraft when it hits something solid at high speed.

How strange. A concrete wall EATS a plane?! (http://www.big-boys.com/articles/concreteplane.html)

[Talking Radalt]

Conspiracies.....I love'em!

So does Elvis. Told me so only the other day.

[BEagle]

Uh-huh............................

[exleckie]

K1rb5 and The Rocket

Two very good links there. Even Mrs Exleckie thought so.

Conspiracy theories are great. Like the plane crash at Boscombe Down in the 90s.
Yeah right!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Makes you wonder though:ooh:

[SilsoeSid]

What can we expect from a country where 95% of those surveyed thought that Joan of Arc was Noahs wife!


Boscombe! Now why was it that I was diverted to 'top cover' the incident, whilst on a GH sortie on the plain?

I wonder how a conspiracy starts?

:suspect: :confused:
SS

[exleckie]

Hmmmmmmmmm, conspiracy, conspiracy.

I was based at Boscombe when said incident occurred. Okay, I was deployed at the the time and the first I knew of this "incident" was an article in the Times.

Having spoken to many people who were on duty at the time of said "incident", there does appear to be many factors which point to nothing more than normal activities / events which when put together in a 2x2=5 fashion do make an interesting story indeed.

Some of the conspiracy theory websites do come up with some great theories but quite honestly, are complete and utter nonsense.

But then again Silsoe, if you were called to provide top cover................................................

Is the truth really out there????????

[Roguedent]

Nice theory, I will just go ask R2D2 and Chewbacca if they have seen the Millenium Falcon recently!!

I hear all those people on the jet all now live on the moon.

[Zoom]

I haven't studied the walls of the Pentagon but I doubt that they are as solid as the one that the F-4 crashed into, and I doubt that they would 'eat' a B757 as effectively.

[SASless]

One of the flukes of this incident....is the portion of the Pentagon that got hit had just recently been given an upgrade to the structure and exterior to enhance its ability to withstand an attack. The windows were blast proof and the exterior wall had been improved to withstand bomb blasts.

[Selac66]

Nice video though that raises good questions.

One of the flukes of this incident....

You'll get there SASless - keep researching and you'll get there.

[SASless]

http://911research.wtc7.net/pentagon/evidence/photos/index.html

Shows the rest of the photos that were left out of the video....clearly shows aircraft parts inside and outside the building.

[Tigs2]

All of you with the 'yeah right' approach make me laugh. You seem to come to a conclusion without examining the evidence. The angle of impact, the trajectory through the building, the lack of any witness marks and the lack of any public viewing of the camera tapes (thought they would make prime time viewing to whip up the coilition into a frenzy of retaliation), wake up folks! Some of you who have said 'yeah right' probably dont believe in Jesus and God because there is no proof. Or maybe those of you that did say 'yeah right' do believe in Jesus and God because its ok for faith to be blind and you believe it because you were all told it was so. er! oh oh! middle America mm! wonder which side you belong to?

Fact is would an ambitious administration orchestrate something that would result in almost absolute power with the main player's private companies making hundreds of millions of dollars each? mmm, need to ponder on this for a while.

They fooled us into thinking man was sent to the moon, why do you think, they think, they cant pull this one off?

Not a conspiracy theorist, i just like empirical data. There is no aircraft accident investigator out there that would come to the conclusion that an aircraft (certainly a 757) impacted with that building. Handy how the well informed terrorist went for the relitively empty part of the building (section 1) that was being refurbished, or was it a 1 in 5 chance they hit that part and not one of the busier sections?? God rest all the souls of those who perished and i hope if there is a god he punishes those responsible.

SASless
but which type of aircraft parts?? are they 757 parts??

[wishtobflying]

... deleted after reading the info on the link provided by SASless.

[Selac66]

This is worth a look.

This thread may be stopped for lack of aviation relevance because this building wasn't hit by an aircraft.

http://www.911research.com/wtc/evidence/videos/docs/wtc_7_cbs.mpg

[SASless]

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/pages/911_pentagon_757_plane_evidence.html

Convinces me that it was a 757......

[Selac66]

There's plenty of stuff out there. Everyone should have a look and make up their own minds.

http://www.cosmicpenguin.com/911/bradm/911index/pentagon.html
http://www.freedomfiles.org/war/pentagon.htm
http://77debris.batcave.net/AA.html

[WhatsaLizad?]

A Northwest Airlines MD-80/DC-9 hit a 1930's style railroad bridge when it crashed on takeoff in the late 1980's. I flew a news crew in hours later and got a good look at the site from 100' up on landing. It stunned me that no large parts were left, just small pieces of debris. A year later I rode by the same bridge. It wasn't even scratched, maybe just the graffiti burned off.

Flash forward a few years. After spending a few years flying the exact same 757 that hit the Pentagon, I can tell you that not much of it would survive a high speed impact with the reinforced concrete and steel of any structure, let alone one design to withstand impacts like the Pentagon.

Reading this regurgitated bile doesn't get any easier over time after watching the planes you've flown used in an unprecedented slaughter after spending so many happy days in them in the past. While it is still the internet, one can always hope that when some of these delusional posters realize they're wrong, they walk out in front of a speeding train or truck.

[Yozzer]

Some good questioms raised here. FWIW I believe that in virtually every airliner crash, the tail survives as testiment. I have seen the F4 into a wall image yet struggle to accept that nothing from a 757 would survive.

However I also know that we will never know the full truth, and that for sure is fact.

[Mad_Mark]

yet struggle to accept that nothing from a 757 would survive.

Suggest you take a look at some of the photos in the links posted above then :rolleyes: You will clearly see several aircraft parts that fit both type (757 parts) and airline (coloured panels).

Strange how there are lots of photos around that do clearly show aircraft wreckage, both big bits and small debris, yet all the conspiracy sites somehow fail to use them :rolleyes:

To all the conspiracists out there, if it wasn't American Airlines flight 77 that hit the Pentagon, where did AAA77 and all the crew and pax go?

MadMark!!! :mad:

[BEagle]

Ah well, what really happened was that they were abducted by aliens and are now listening to an Elvis concert along with the 'Lost Flight' crews from the Bermuda Triangle and the crew of the Marie Celeste.

Oh - and the ever-present 'cammo dudes' and 'greys' sprinkled a large quantity of aircraft crash wreckage around the Pentagon site following the orders of the CIA.

These conspiracy theorists do make you laugh - barking mad the lot of 'em!

[Hilife]

Tigs2

There are many things in life that appear unbelievable and we are right to question accepted beliefs.

However, on your point regarding man walking on the moon - or the lack of it. Do you honestly believe that all 18 astronauts that flew to the moon and the 12 that actually walked on it, not to mention the 1000’s of employees working for NASA ALL manufactured a lie that to this day they stick too.

Independent of NASA the British tracked Apollo 11 right to the point of touchdown, even observing the last minute change of landing site from Parkes Science Laboratory in Australia.

Every piece of evidence that conspiracy theorists use to prove the hoax can be disproved with science, waiving flags, non-parallel shadows, lack of stars etc…

You don’t believe it because you don’t want to believe it, not because it didn’t happen.

[Widger]

This is an automated message.

K1RB5,


You are too close to the truth, the military mainframe has spidered you and they know where you live. The next knock on your door will be their operatives. Get out. get out now! Run to the hills and hide!

[wg13_dummy]

I believe it was stated that it would have been harder not to go to the moon!

As for the conspiracy side of life. The conspiracists have more to make on it being a conspiracy than not. What else would an entire industry of bearded goatblowers from Alabama called 'Chuck' do?
It does make me laugh when they connect over 40 or 50 years of 'cover ups' and brush it off as being 'the administration'. It's not the blinkin Dark Side of the Empire. Surely a following, opposing administration would score points from its predecessors by 'outting' their cover ups?

Banjo's at dawn.

Who remembers the old online Chemtrail war from a few years ago? Now that was a hoot! No doubt the chemtrailers are the same sorts who love this kind of thing too.

[Talking Radalt]

Errrrr, while we're at it, anyone know who The Stig is? :uhoh:

[wg13_dummy]

Well, it's NOT Damon Hill (this time!) :ok:

This might help to answer a couple of Q's.

Who is The Stig? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Stig)

We need to know the answer. I think it's a cover up. Why are they not telling us? Something to hide???

[SilsoeSid]

Who is The Stig?
He is none other than the Chief Constable of North Wales, Richard Brunstrom.

Since he took over the top post at North Wales Police in January 2001, he has perhaps become best known for his determination to crack down on speeding drivers.

That's why his identity as the Stig is such a closely guarded secret!

:suspect:
SS

[Selac66]

Mad_Mark,

Strange how there are lots of photos around that do clearly show aircraft wreckage, both big bits and small debris, yet all the conspiracy sites somehow fail to use them

All? What about this one;

http://77debris.batcave.net/AA.html

With only the official NTSB report to work on;

The terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001 are under the jurisdiction of the Federal Bureau of Investigation. The Safety Board provided requested technical assistance to the FBI, and this material generated by the NTSB is under the control of the FBI. The Safety Board does not plan to issue a report or open a public docket.

It is understandable that we are seeing a mix of amateurism, 'technical' investigation and ... sweeping generalisations.

A standard, unobstructed and professional NTSB investigation would do us all a favour.

[SASless]

The idiots that try to suggest the WTC aircraft were holographically disguised missles are the ones that tickle me. They suggest explosives were in the building and all the folks that like Kosher Dills were warned the day ahead of time......or is it the ones that try to convince us the hijackers were CIA double agents......it sure makes one wonder what they are smoking when they come up with and try to maintain these ideas.

[Mad_Mark]

Selac66, Ooops sorry, I missed one :rolleyes: Though reading the sites argument it is full of bull! Paper thin metal that is really light and shadow caused by a bent panel, trying to fit the panel into some of the possible positions on a photo of an intact a/c, but not all positions. These are really, really sad people :(

MadMark!!! :mad:

[Green Meat]

Tigs2

If you're so keen on empirical data, the evidence and reconstruction in the Channel 5 documentary (yes, I know, I've studied media comms and psy ops too) has far more 'empirical' data than any of the so-called evidence from the moon-landing detractors.

[Bob Viking]

I, for one, find it amazing that after such an immense and unprecedented attack such as this the US government managed to employ someone to construct fake pieces of aircraft wreckage and scatter them around on the Pentagon lawn so quickly that they were there before the news crews turned up.
I usually defend people like train/aircraft spotters and these weirdo conspiracy theorists and explain that everyone has to have a hobby, but Jesus Christ these people are beyond belief.
Hope I don't ever have to meet any of these people and endure a conversation with any of them. I think I'd be tempted to rip off my own leg just so I had something to beat myself to death with!
BV

[An Teallach]

Rather more worrying and certainly more plausible; having followed the original link and then disappeared up my own jacksie in 9/11 conspiracy links, alien abductions, bilderbergers etc, one link pointed to this article from the New Statesman of 21 Jul 03:

So were the Tories right after all? - Feaures - British Prime Minister Tony Blair provides fodder for psychologists (http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0FQP/is_4647_132/ai_106058998)

At the risk of waking the sleeping Kraakens that are Proone et al, I found myself agreeing that the smiling one is, indeed, as they say in Edinburgh medical circles, certifiably off his tattie!

[L Peacock]

Green Meat

Agree completely. I must admit, I have, over the years, been fascinated by the possibility of the moon landings having been a huge deception. However, after watching the C5 prog and its detailed dismissal of each and every conspiracy argument, I feel, frankly, a bit silly!
TIGS2 on the other hand strikes me as being a pratt.

[Scud-U-Like]

Here's a detailed explanation debunking the conspiracy bollox surrounding the 9/11 Pentagon attack:

http://www.snopes.com/rumors/pentagon.htm

[Beeayeate]

Who is The Stig?

Andy McNish, an Audi Sports Car driver (Le Mans, Sebring, etc).

[L Peacock]

Has the stig set a time in a reasonably priced car and was it faster than Damon Hill?

[SilsoeSid]

Beeayeate,

Don't you mean Allan (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sport/motorsport/794070.stm) McNish?

I believe Andy (http://www.ukg-tournaments.co.uk/reports.htm) McNish is a UK 'Yu-Gi-Oh!' Card Gaming Champion!

:ok:
SS

[OFBSLF]

One of my colleagues was on AA11. Every time I think about 9/11, I think about her, on that airplane.

These conspiracy theorist fools really tick me off.

Fortunately I don't know any of these theorists. I'd be sorely tempted to do something I might enjoy, but would regret later.

[supermario]

Friend of mine was looking out of his window opposite the Pentagon and watched the ac inpact. There is no doubt in my mind that he was telling the truth. I served with him on ops and would trust him with my life.

[GeeRam]

I haven't studied the walls of the Pentagon but I doubt that they are as solid as the one that the F-4 crashed into, and I doubt that they would 'eat' a B757 as effectively.

The Institution of Civil Engineers and the Institution of Structural Engineers have, and the results of this and the WTC collapse will have an effect on the worldwide future of fire-engineering design.

The wonderfully 'old-fashioned' over-designed structure of the Pentagon behaved more or less exactly as expected structually IIRC, and did comprehensivly 'eat' the 757 and at the same time contain the conflagration in a relatively small area, with consequently higher temps than in an 'open' impact site. Possibly that's why there's not an awful lot left of the ally a/c structure?

[Beeayeate]

SilsoeSid
Don't you mean Allan McNish?

Good Lord. Yes I do.! :ok: :ok:

.

[SilsoeSid]

Crikey, with all this conspiracy stuff going on, I hope this thread gets moved to Jet Blast, " Stay out if you are faint hearted " where perhaps for a short while at least, some might like to verify the numbers from 60yrs ago.

Cat pigeons....GO!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/1830000/images/_1831240_150pigpa.jpg

SS

p.s. Small issue of the 9/11 black boxes???

[Navaleye]

I've met "Buzz" Aldrin and heard his personal account of what happened. I don't think anyone could talk with such passion about something which was made-up. Just my 2c.

[TEEEJ]

To the conspiracy theory nutters. Was this C-130 crew part of the conspiracy theory? To TIGs, yes those are Boeing 757 parts.


http://news.minnesota.publicradio.org/features/2004/05/31_catlinb_airguardmuseum/

TJ

The undercarriage hub imaged at the Pentagon:

http://www.christian-patriots.us/images/Img51.gif

757 hub:


http://www.kiwiaircraftimages.com/images/main/02_rukuhia/SAM9319.JPG

TJ

[Tigs2]

TEEJ Thank you for clarifying that.

L Peacock, no need to get personal here i was just having a bit fun, stirring a few things up.

[zorrotfb]

I've met "Buzz" Aldrin and heard his personal account of what happened. I don't think anyone could talk with such passion about something which was made-up. Just my 2c.

Well finally here is compelling proof that the moon landings were indeed hoaxed. Left Click (http://www.dc8p.com/html/moonhoax.html) Needs sound.


Just don't confront Buzz with this info...Left Click (http://www.putfile.com/media.php?n=buzz22)

[k1rb5]

supermario

good enough for me

[SASless]

A coward, a liar, and a cheat.....also a very poor right jab too! Should have gone for the Ghoolie Punt!

[TEEEJ]

Mike,

Well spotted. The image I posted was from a C-32A - obviously a different hub. Thanks for posting a correct image.

TJ

[SilsoeSid]

All this moon hoax malarky could be sorted out once and for all so easily with photos of the LM descent stage on the moon with associated footprints, flags, etc.

After all, its a big box covered with gold foil;
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/b/b6/Apollo_16_LM.jpg/285px-Apollo_16_LM.jpg
Here seen with the ascent stage attached.





"Its too small to see with a telescope or lunar orbiter lens", I hear you cry, echoing the excuses given in the past. Well, if that still is the argument, how come NASA think they have seen and photographed the 'Vicking 2' lander on Mars!
Source (http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewsr.html?pid=16493)

http://nssdc.gsfc.nasa.gov/thumbnail/spacecraft/viking_lander_model.gifreference pic

and also the 'Mars Polar Lander'http://mars.jpl.nasa.gov/msp98/gif/m9815.jpgreference pic


Mind you, the other morning I'm sure that we could see Elvis on the moon in that red double decker bus, through the FLIR camera. ;)


:ooh:
SS

[SASless]

SS,

You guys need to wash out that Teapot a bit more often.....Elvis ain't on the Moon....I seen him in Vegas last week....doing a wedding gig.

[Selac66]

TEEJ

I certainly wouldn't argue that the C-130 crew didn't see an aircraft crash into the pentagon.

At the same time the witness doesn't say it was a 757. More importantly he doesn't say it was flight 77 - merely a target he had been vectored onto.

The same radar target that appeared 36 minutes after all radar contact with 77 had been lost . His evidence is only a piece of evidence, not irrefutable proof that flight 77 hit the Pentagon.

[SASless]

Awright.....lets cut to the chase....just who/what crashed into the Pentagon? Lets quit saying what didn't....lets say what did? And prove your statement besides merely offering up an opinion. Or are we going to say nothing happened at the Pentagon or the WTC....it was all done with holographics and sound effects.....and alien spaceships carried away all of the alledged victims.

Maybe it was a Men in Black thing.....one big flash over the world....and God spoke from the heavens telling us to think we saw what we did.....

[wiggy]

SiloeSid
The beauty of the "Moon Hoax" is that the conspiracy theorists are in a "win/win" situation....since NASA haven't produced an image the Landings must be a hoax, and when NASA do produce an image the theorists will claim that the image itself is a hoax.......
BTW I think you will find the reason there is no such image is that NASA has had nothing in Lunar Orbit for years with the equipment capable of "taking" such an picture - the Mars images you refer to were taken relatively recently.

[SilsoeSid]

I guess all will be clear in 2008 when NASA launch the Lunar Reconnaissance Orbiter.

I agree that it is a win/win situation or the theorists, but if;

a. The launch 'fails'.
b. The equipment goes 'faulty'.
c. The program doesn't allow for the photography of the Apollo landing sites.

Perhaps they will have a few more arrows added to their quiver.


:suspect:
SS


Anything is possible. I have just, minutes ago, been with GEN11, (Chitty Chitty Bang Bang), in my local pubs car park. Who'd believe that?
I have pics, but as is said, who'd believe a digi photo, apart from the children when they get home!

[Tigs2]

I thought the Japanese were launching some sort of Lunar Recce/mapping device this year. Anybody know anything about that?

I'm not really into conspiracy theories but the science of the moon landings is a bit questionable. Take the radiation levels for example. The guys were in an aluminum can wearing suits made of special nylon stuff(im sure there is a correct name for the material!). During their trip to the moon they had to go through the Van Allen radiation belt TWICE, AND there were over 230 solar flares (enough gamma radiation to power KFC for 200 years) during the time of the journey. The clothing they were wearing would stop Alpha particles, the aluminum can would stop a percentage of Beta particles, but Gamma particles - No. Never did see the channel 5 documentary, did it address these issues.

And fellow pilots, imagine landing the lunar module, no window to look out of that would give any decent references. where/how do you reference any gyros to know you are exactly perpendicular to the moons surface? a few degrees out and its curtains. They had a 100% success rate with their landings, pretty amazing stuff. The photos can be doctored but the points above leave me with an uneasy feeling about the whole thing.

[Selac66]

SASless,

And prove your statement besides merely offering up an opinion.

That's all that I think anyone can ask for from the people who know. Three million dollars was reluctantly allocated to investigate the crashing of four aeroplanes, destruction of three skyscrapers, the damage to the Pentagon and, most importantly, the loss of thousands of lives.

Few people in the whole world have remained untouched by the day - surely everyone deserves a more thorough investigation and presentation of the facts than we have received to date?

[SASless]

If we spent 50,000 Million dollars and come up with the same answer would you be satisfied....or as in the Lunar landings...would you challenge the information because it could have been fabricated? How many Million people watched the second airplane hit the WTC.....is there any doubt in a sane persons mind that it happened? But yet we have moron's that say it was a holographically disguised missile....come on now get real!

There are those on the "left" and on the fringes of sanity that will challenge anything and more importantly everything the government has to say. The one is right and proper the other is not worthy of comment.

The Flight Attendant I knew that died was a real person...had a real family...and is gone.....I want to know how this wonderful young woman was recruited into a conspiracy and create such pain with her leaving.....I would guess that makes her a suicide bomber then. I assure you anyone making that assertion best make it anonymously on the internet because it will not be received well if done in person....I will gladly kick some sense into that person at that point.

Just what are we supposed to investigate better.....we know it happened...we have Osama Been Running on video tape claiming it was his work. In my book....that is all we need to know....beyond where to find the sorry devil and send him to meet his maker with all this blood on his hands. If he is wrong about the reward for Jihad....he'll burn for eternity for his miscalculations.

[Selac66]

SASless,

I hear you. It is exactly because of the people who were lost that we need to know the truth.

You say that OBL admitted to it and so we don't need to investigate any more deeply.

Do you know of the story that OBL was treated in the American hospital in Dubai in July 2001? The Commission could have interviewed the American surgeon who was supposed to have treated him (Dr. Terry Callaway) or the local CIA man who reportedly visited him (Larry Mitchell).

I'd like to have that cleared up.

[SASless]

Sealac....why don't you strike up a relationship with Ward Churchill....you two seem to be on the same wave length when it comes to these matters. You might find his theory about the WTC attack a refreshing change to the fare of which you have been partaking. He suggests the victims of the WTC attack were all "little Eichmann's" and thus were legitimate targets thus no wrong was done.

Heck not to worry about Dubai....

Sudan offered Osama Been Hiding to Bill Clinton....he did not wish to deal with a difficult issue so they were rebuffed. I would rather see that investigated.....and have another trial of the bugger for that if true.

[Selac66]

SASless,
Sudan offered Osama Been Hiding to Bill Clinton
I totally agree that this should be investigated. I'm not sitting on any side except that of a complete investigation of this and other matters.

Like the report that Pakistan's ISI wired $100 000 to Atta before the attacks.

No mention of this in the Commission findings. I'd like to know more about that.

[Tigs2]

SASless
thats not what Sealac was saying. He has asked your opinion on a difficult issue and like most people faced with a difficult question you have ignored it and answered it with another question, going off on another tangent. All the questions that are being raised are proof that there is not enough public information on exactly what happened and why it happened, and thats when, faced with a little information people will make assumptions, fill in the gaps and Rumour is born. This is not the Professional Pilots Fact Network, a lot of us want answers to some pretty important questions.

[ORAC]

Tigs2,

The facts are easy to find. If, of course, you were actually interested in the facts.

Van Allen Belts (http://spider.ipac.caltech.edu/staff/waw/mad/mad19.html)

Management of Apollo Radiation (http://www.lunaranomalies.com/rad.htm)

[OFBSLF]

I will gladly kick some sense into that person at that point.Only if I don't get to them first...

My colleague was one of the happiest persons I've met. She laughed in the face of the typical Dilbertisms common in large US corporations. No matter how bad it was, she was always smiling.

She was a passenger on AA 11.

To the idiot conspiracy theorists: you should not have stopped taking your meds.

[SASless]

Tigs.....

There is no requirement for me to answer any question....those that doubt the official version of events have the right to pose questions all they want....but if they doubt the official account...get out there and prove the official account incorrect.

I will ask you the "difficult" question....what evidence, facts, data, documents, photos, witness accounts do you have to challenge anything published by the government regarding the 911 account. If you march up something, be able to validate the accrucacy of what you report. Bugger a bunch of finger pointing....make your case partner.

[Tigs2]

SASless
fair point, elequently made and well argued , nuff said. You did make me smile though!

validate the accrucacy of what you report


OFBSLF
I agree with your last sentence exactly. I think the majority of people here were questioning the impact at the pentagon, not as some nutters want us to believe the conspiracy concerning impacts at the WTC.

[henry crun]

Tifgs2: You say you are not into conspiracy theories and then go on to disprove your own statement.

"imagine landing the lunar module, no window to look out of that would give any decent references."

Am I to assume that you do not believe Neil Armstrong took over manual control because he could see the planned landing site was unsuitable ?

Do you really believe the rubbish spouted by the conspiracy nutters ?

[normally right blank]

Fake moon landing?

And NASA fooled the USSR too? :D
(or were they part of the cover-up?)

[Selac66]

SASless,

I will ask you the "difficult" question....what evidence, facts, data, documents, photos, witness accounts do you have to challenge anything published by the government regarding the 911 account.

Commission: 19 men identified as the hijackers.

Evidence: At least six of these men reportedly turned up alive. e.g. Al-Omari (identified as the pilot of Flight 11) working as a pilot for Saudi Airlines walked into the US Consulate in Jeddah to verify his existence. Independent, 17 September 2001.

Just as important as the errors in the official story are the bits they left out.

Building 7 - a 47 storey skyscraper - collapses in seconds. No mention in the official account. If they are going to leave this out, what else has been overlooked?

[SASless]

Sel.....

As I said before....run your facts and back them up....lay out your case Bubba....don't ask a question...provide data and provide corroborating evidence. A single newspaper article dated four years ago while the investigation was on-going doesn't hack it. The article was written six days after the attack....how much investigation had been done at that time? What information has been surfaced in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Saudi and other places by capture and killing of terrorists and Taliban fighters since then? How much of that information is posted on the open web do you think? Are you going to try to make us believe an article written six days after that attack is the definitive data? What was the sources of information for that account anyway?

[Selac66]

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/article216142.ece

As requested here is evidence to 'challenge anything published by the government'. If his name appeared on a passenger list (none of the hijacker's names appear on the manifests which have been released), or there was securty camera footage of him getting on the flight I would be satisfied, but... all we've got is a report that he is alive.
Worth clearing up?

The article was written six days after the attack....how much investigation had been done at that time?

Eighteen of the hijacker\'s names were announced two days after the event. The nineteenth a day later. How much investigation indeed?

[SilsoeSid]

Here's one that struck me this morning whilst flicking through this months edition of BALPAs, 'The Log'.

Page13, part of the 'When in Washington' article.

Notice the space suit?

Why, when space is so limited, was the need felt to bring Armstrongs and Aldrins space suits back to Earth when getting man on the Moon was the ultimate goal.
A big bit of kit and although perhaps stowed in the CM on the way there, once they had been inflated they would have been a bit of a pain to repack into the limited space given. Later missions had the suits left in the ascent stage.

The storage area for the helmets was on the LEM which meant that the helmets had to be specially brought into the Command module for the trip home. Why weren't they left in the LEM ascent stage before discarding it? (The helmets worn for launch were just the 'goldfish bowls' and not the visored type!)


There was no reason to keep the extra suits and helmets(x2) on board for the trip home, so was someone really looking at the future commercial value of the suits back then?

Or was it just another little oversight?

Thousands were indeed involved with the missions, but ever heard of plausible deniability ?

:suspect:
SS

[The Gorilla]

Personally if I was one of you lot left in what we laughingly refer to as the military,
I would be far more worried about the result of the recent Iranian election.

Isn't it amazing how the outside hardliner (who may or may not have been the ringleader of the US hostage crisis) came to be victorious.

I wonder if the CIA may have been involved in it? Gives our modern day heroes Bush and his brit gooner an excuse to go into Iran as well perhaps?

Conspiracy theory? Not as far fetched as the 9/11 or Apollo ones me thinks..

:ok:

[wiggy]

Siloesid


They did not carry two suits or helmets for the Moonwalkers.

Armstrong and Aldrin's suits came back because they would have been pretty poorly placed if the CM had lost hull pressure on the three day return from the Moon (Remember the later Soyuz mission where exactly that happend on deorbit?) Where is your source/reference to the fact that later crews left their (only) suits behind in the LM Ascent Stage?

All three crew members did indeed have the goldfish bowl helmets...indeed Armstrong and Aldrin were wearing these very same helmets on the Surface, covered by an extra, lightweight outer helmet that provided extra thermal and optical protection ( beta cloth covering, a transparent impact resistant visor and the gold optical visor....but they only took ( and brought back) one pressure helmet - the goldfish bowl one. Doubling up on suits and full helmets just wouldn't make sense from a weight saving point of view.

Guess you now think I'm just another part of the conspiracy?

[SilsoeSid]

They did not carry two suits or helmets for the Moonwalkers.What did Neil and Buzz wear then?

On Apollo 13, why didn't the crew put on their suits, if they were meant to be carried in case of de-pressurisation?
Surely not because they didn't think of it!

If they were as you say saving weight with the helmets and if they were brought back just in case of de-pressurisation, why bring back the outer visor assembly? As no EVA would have been possible, there would have been no need for it.
The NASM (http://www.nasm.si.edu/) display the full helmet, visor assembly et al, for both Neil and Buzz.

Can you fly a CM with pressurised gloves?

How do 3 people, in 2 minutes, in a CM, put on full sets of pressure suits??

"The only times when a puncture was at all plausible was during landing and during launch and rendezvous; and, at these times, the astronauts always wore their suits, albeit unpressurized so that they could move their arms with relative ease. Consequently, in the event of a puncture the astronauts would only need cabin pressure maintained for long enough that they could get their suits inflated. Two minutes gave plenty of margin."
Source (http://www.solarviews.com/eng/apoengin.htm)

Guess you now think I'm just another part of the conspiracy?
Perhaps you are wiggy, perhaps you are! :suspect:

If not, explain this leaked picture!!

http://grin.hq.nasa.gov/IMAGES/SMALL/GPN-2002-000021.jpg

"Right, who forgot to pack the helmets??!!"

:ok:
SS

I refer to my previous question!

[Darth Nigel]

That picture is clearly a fake -- I recognize Skegness "Beach" anywhere.

[SASless]

I guess souvenir tee-shirts are a novelty around the world. Why not bring back keep sakes of one of Man's greatest achievements? After all...they loaded up with boxes of rocks and dust samples. Maybe it was a CofG matter....needed to keep the trim as near possible to that they started with.

[wiggy]

SilsoeSid

- Ops, grammer, what I meant was that they did not double up on suits and helmets, each man had 1X spacesuit and 1X helmet, and those items went to the Moon and back.

Suits and Apollo 13 - there was no pressure loss, so why put suits on?

Fly CM in gloves..err yes, the whole spacecraft was designed to be operated depressurised.

Suits on in three minutes from cold ....doubt it, but you might have more than that? Who knows why you might have lost the pressure or what the leak rate is...so carry the suits, and if that means bringing them back from the Moon, so be it.....

The leaked picture...ah Irwin, Young and Mattingley (he of Apollo 13 German measles fame),...............................

[SASless]

Apollo 13....no pressure loss....but no heat....they were freezing to death.

[Craggenmore]

I was wondering if anyone knows why the US have delayed the public issue of the 'official' file on JFK for another 50 years...

...thus rendering anyone involved during the assisignation dead and out of harms way when the papers are (if) finally released.

:confused:

[SASless]

When the classification was extended , the comment was made by the president...."Who would really want to read them anyway...?"

My immediate response was...."I do....every last word of them!"

As part of my training as a criminal investigator for a federal agency...we used the Warren Report as a source of information....and exactly like the film "JFK"....we came up with a laundry list of questions (leads in investigator speak) that would need to be answered before we could close a case.

The Warren Report was designed to close the book....not answer the questions....


Track some of the members of that commission....

Gerald Ford, Arlan Spector.....to name two.

[Craggenmore]

SASless

Do you know if they will ever be released? As you say, the majority of the western would be fascinated to know if the truth, (if what they actually do release will be the truth!)

I've visited the Book Depositry and was impressed with the accuracy of the assassin from that range to a 20mph moving target with 2 direct hits causing that amount of head damage that was released in the Zapruda film.

[Darth Nigel]

Apollo 13...

I think that the problem with the pressure suits is that the astronauts would have been too hot in them. The pressure suit provides really good insulation, so good that the astronauts own body heat will cause them to sweat and become dehydrated. Apollo-era suits had a water-cooled undergarment which circulated cool liquid through a heat-exchanger to maintain an even comfortable environment inside the suit.

Apollo 13 was short of power and water, and the astronauts were very tired. I believe that Mission Control considered and rejected the idea of having the astronauts get into and out of the suits because:
- just sitting in the suit could cause the astronaut to become dehydrated
- running the suit circulation pump would take power from somewhere (initially the suit batteries, but then from a recharge point on the ship itself)
- getting into and out of the suits would have exhausted the crew more quickly
- chance of damaging the pressure suits, which might have been bad had the cabin vented.
(I'm sure I read it somewhere; might have been in Jim Lovell's book ("Lost Moon", now "Apollo 13") or the Chalkin book)


I heard Fred Haise talk in Orlando back in '99 (irrelevant to supporting my position, but still really fascinating to hear him talk). Man got a standing ovation at the end of his talk on Quality! Really nice chap.

[SilsoeSid]

Wallace and Gromits trip to the moon in 'A Grand Day Out' showed a glimpse of what really happened up there!!

http://www.toonhound.com/grandday-2.jpg

http://www.bbc.co.uk/herefordandworcester/content/images/2005/03/02/spaceman_420x284.jpg

:)
SS

[Selac66]

SASless,

As part of my training as a criminal investigator for a federal agency

And you have no problem with the investigation of 911?

[SASless]

Sealac....you may have missed a previous post.....NO!

One of the reasons....a good friend from those days found himself inside the crash site at the Pentagon picking up pieces of airplane and people....putting them into plastic or paper bags as appropriate and tagging them for analysis. His account of what transpired there and knowing of his ability and character.....I accept what happened there for what it was. A terrorist act that murdered a lot of very nice people just like you and me....folks going about their ordinary...common lives.

Bluntly....I don't care one whit what was in that report....I have not read it. I do not have any interest in reading it. I know the report is just a piece of paper that summarizes a very complex situation and that no piece of paper....will ever tell the whole, complete, perfect account of what happened on that day. I do not care about that....again...not in the least do I care.

What I care about is the information that resulted from that investigation....and all of the investigations that were not reported....nor will be. I care about the information that was gleaned from material that has been obtained by military action in Afghanistan, Iraq, and other places you have not heard about and will not.

What I care about is that information being effectively used to hunt down and render combat ineffective every single terrorist, terrorist group, and every piece and person involved in the support infrastructure of those terrorist groups and terrorists.

I don't care how it is done....so long as it gets done effectively and completely. I don't care how long it takes...how much it costs or where we have to go to do it.

Now Sealac.....do you have any question what I think about the 911 Attack, the people and organizations that did the attack, the people and groups that supported them then and continue to do so today?

I don't care about the higher moral ground...being "Right" or any of that liberal mantra that gets thrown out everytime something like this happens.

We are engaged in an old fashioned rat killing.....I pray our forces good hunting.

Any other questions I can answer for you Sealac....just ask away.

[wiggy]

SiloeSid
Wow...great pic.
Must go, time to suit up and head out on another mission ........
Keep up the good work, the truth is out there.
Rgds
Wiggy..

[Tigs2]

SASless
do you not care as an investigator, that the Bush administration allowed free passage for all of the Bin Laden family members to leave the US the day after 9/11. Why didnt the FBI have the opportunity to say 'do you know where your big brother/ uncle/ cousin/ Osama is to all of those members of the immediate family. Incidentally they were flown out in one of the very few flights permitted to take place in the US on 10/11. WHY??

Do you not care as an investigator that the WMD and the technology were supplied by the US and UK.

Do you not care as an investigator that out of the 19 high jackers, 16 were from Saudi Arabia, non from Iraq yet we used that as an excuse to kill 150 000 iraquis?


murdered a lot of very nice people just like you and me....folks going about their ordinary...common lives.

And do you not wonder why as an investigator we have suddenly gone on this world crusade against terror, when for 25 years people within the United States openly funded a terrorist organisation called the IRA through a group in the US called Noraid, to the tune of at least $25 million a year. The IRA was responsible for the murder of as many people in the UK as in the WTC. We bombed Afghanistan and Iraq because we believe they supported terrorism. The US openly supported the IRA terrorist organisation, did that give the Brits the right to bomb the s**t out of the USA (not that we could have done!).

What really worries me is what is going to happen when we have killed all the terrorists. The US economy is totally reliant on the defence industry. No war is bad for business.

Nobody is doubting that on 9/11 a lot of very good American citizens died, and the tragic consequences that this has had on thousands of families and friends. What i want to know is WHO murdered them and WHY they were murdered, and as an investigator you must realise that the answers to those questions have not been answered in any where near what might be described as a satisfactoy manner. The conspiracy theorists who talk about holographic images of aircraft are a sandwich short of a picnic. A lot of people were murdered, WHY and WHO, the US government has not answered those questions, nor in my opinion have the perpitrators been brought to justice for 9/11. Shooting from the hip and killing over 200000 people in Iraq and Afghanistan in the hope we might get a few terrorists in the process is not the way a civilised, democratic society should conduct itself - in my opinion.

Over the last 200 years both the Brits and the US have been responsible for a lot of good, we have also been responsible for a LOT of bad. Facing those particular things make many of us feel uneasy and uncomfortable. We need to take a strong look at ourselves before we endevour to become world policemen.

[SASless]

When I can get my information from the original source...and not the mainstream media....with their known lack of credibility...down to 23% now is it.....I will be glad to read something and form an opinion. If you read the BBC link above, you will see the article is quotes the female reporter who plainly is lying as her account contradicts both the American forces version and the Italian Intelligence officers account. Even the Intelligence officer said he was in a panic after hearing some shots and thus was driving fast in the dark.

Things happen in combat....mistakes were made on both sides probably....sources quoted in the article from both sides agree to that. It is only some that continue to paint it as a black hearted scheme by the Americans.

All some want to talk about is WMD.....but if you do a review of everything said leading up to the war....WMD was but one of the issues. It was the drum that was beat the most while other issues remained less publicized but the other issues remain valid.

Some of us are unalterably opposed to the war....nothing said by anyone else is going to change those minds. There are others of us that support the war....and again...nothing is going to change our minds. Thus arguing about this and that and every little thing is pointless. George Bush could have put the Bin Laden's on the airplane himself....I don't care. Hell...there are those that think that anyway....maybe being a pilot he flew the airplane....again....one can believe what every you want....some do never mind how implausible it is....then proclaim it as the truth to all and sundry.

The one real fact that has to be faced....we are in a war. We cannot change that. The only way to see some good come out of this is to ensure the success of the troops on the ground....establish a free Iraqi government....stick with them until they are on their feet and secure then leave them to their business.

Anyone that cannot see the good that comes to the Iraqi people after all of this ugliness is over is blind to reality. Saddam's thugs were killing Iraqi's without the war....they continue to do so in an attempt to regain power. The Iraqi infrastructure was allowed to decay while Saddam built palaces and underground bunkers....and maintained his military might.

In time the insurgency will be defeated by the Iraqi people....it will come by political means more than military means. Just as in Northern Ireland....at some point the people grow tired of death, mayhem, and violence and that will be the end of the insurgency.

In time....peace will return to Iraq....and the Iraqi people will enjoy their freedom . If that is bad for the Iraqi people....explain what was good about the Saddam Regime please?

The questions to be asked....could we have stopped with Afghanistan? If we had only gone to Afghanistan.....would that have destroyed Al Qaeda? If we had stayed out of Iraq, would Syria have pulled out of Lebanon? Would Libya have renounced all efforts to obtain nuclear weapons? Would Egypt be moving towards free elections? Would we be in a better position to address Iran's efforts to obtain nuclear weapons? Would the Palestinians and Israeli's be doing as they are...moving in the direction of a more peaceful situation? Would the Iraqi people be forming their own democratic government or would Saddam's thugs still be murdering and torturing the Iraqi people?

The war in Iraq is just piece of the mosaic.....open your eyes and look at the entire situation....not just a part of it.

[Tigs2]

SASless

It was the drum that was beat the most while other issues remained less publicized but the other issues remain valid.

What other issues?? And are they a valid - LEGAL reason for going to war? WE (in the UK) were told we were justified (legally) in going to war because he had WMD. Now we know they dont exist we are coming out with lots of other c**p excuses.

Saddam murdered 10 000 kurds with chemical weapons some of which were provided by the US and UK, he tortured people. So he is the bad guy. So we go in and murder 150 000 iraquis and torture them.

The world is not a safer place since Saddam was moved from power, it is decidedly unsafer. And dont mention all this rubbish about peole being murdered as an excuse to invade Iraq. Why have we (The Coillition) not moved into Africa to prevent te slaughter of 100s of thousands of men women and children at the hands of ruthless dictators. A need far more urgent than anything Saddam was doing. Call me an old Cynic but the reason is Africa has nothing we want. It has nothing the worlds largest consumer of oil wants.

In time the insurgency will be defeated by the Iraqi people....it will come by political means more than military means. Just as in Northern Ireland....at some point the people grow tired of death, mayhem, and violence and that will be the end of the insurgency.

You are wrong with this one pard-ner. The reason the troubles stopped in Northern Ireland is the US decided it was against its own political interests to continue giving public support to the IRA. So the financial heart was ripped out of the organisation overnight. You never did comment from my previous post, how do you feel about supporting a terrorist organisation that killed as many people in the UK as died on 9/11. Do we have right of retribution??

You have know concept of how the Middle East works. There will never be Peace in the Middle East. If Russia the great soviet union had moved in to impose its will on the people of the US, you would all to a man and woman have continued your struggle till death to get them out of the country.

Pandoras Box has been opened.

The war in Iraq is just piece of the mosaic

God help us all.

[Selac66]

SASless,

Thus arguing about this and that and every little thing is pointless. George Bush could have put the Bin Laden's on the airplane himself....I don't care.

This may cut it in some parts of the US but countries which value the rule of law are starting to distance themselves from this 'loose and fast with the truth' routine. We'll have to agree to differ SASless - good luck.

[Tigs2]

SASless

The questions to be asked....could we have stopped with Afghanistan?

Further to Selacs comments and my last post.
You make some fairly bold statements. Why dont you justify them?? Do you really think we could have stopped with Afghanistan? The truth is Afghanistan is nowhere near over. We went in and kicked ass and have created a worse mess than existed there in the first place. The women are back to being oppressed, no one is going to school, we have just let a different bunch of thugs in. All our well intended actions are in these countries are to go in, kill loads of people, let loads of our soldiers die, for what?? for nothing because we just let them revert back to what they were doing because we are not interested in them, we are interested in short term political, fnancial and military gain. Wake up SASless. The only reason we forget about the countries is that we pull the media out to go somewhere else. No media, the world forgets - simple. Afghanistan is a mess, do you think iraq will be any different?

[Tigs2]

SASless
i hate hate hate doing double messages. However you made some really strong statements and dont seem to have the Kuhoonas to answer the responses to your replies. You have been on line many times and seem to be ignoring your obligation to answer replies to your statements.

[SASless]

Tiggsy.....hate to rain on your rant....have been gone working my hay farm....the sun was shining and it needed doing. The absence was due to good old fashioned manual labor...you know the kind with greasy hands....sweaty clothes.....the kind of thing the commoners do. You should give it a go....good exercise...helps clear the mind.

You seem to have run up a lot of questions....see few answers to them in your posts. Explain your solution to all these problems....lets see how they fly?

If this is not a big mosaic....what is it?

Did you consider the change in the US Federal law about financing Terrorist Organizations.....I posted a copy of that law's list of organizations....amongst which are a couple of Irish groups....it was in a different thread probably....but that is the law now....maybe that escaped your notice.

You suggest it was the cutting of funds that did in the IRA....and US law made that funding illegal....are you suggesting we may have had more effect in putting that insurgency down than all the other efforts put together?

[Tigs2]

SASless
Thanks for the reply. Your right, to many unanswered questions, i guess thats the problem.

Bye the way If ever you want anyone to help out on the hayfarm, there is nothing i would love more, wont even charge you for labour. Sounds like pure utopia compared to lifes busy busy hustle and bustle.
Tigs

[Darth Nigel]

So SAless, you're admitting then that once the US stopped funding the IRA, things got better?

Hmm, maybe a tactic to try to bring peace to other parts of the world, like that country whose name shall not be mentioned on PPruNe.

[SASless]

Darth,

As I recall....George the Anti-Christ gave the other side 600 million US dollars in direct aid very recently. Should we cut that financial support also?

[Tigs2]

Darth
its a sad sign of the times that we cant mention that countries name on PPRUNE.

Remember the only difference between an Apache helicopter armed with hellfire missiles and a suicide bomber is the packaging!