Am I getting ripped off?

[pastadolla]

Can someone tell me if my flying training organisation is ripping me off?

Our course makes us do four hours in a simulator and 2 hours of taxiing a Warrior around the tarmac BEFORE we even get airborne!!! BTW the taxi is charged at the dual rate.

I thought this was the norm, until I spoke to an instructor from another flying school. When I told him he nearly p!ssed his pants laughing. He reckons the sim is a waste of time at my stage in training and the taxxi is just bull sht.

Any thoughts?

[Howard Hughes]

When I told him he nearly p!ssed his pants laughing.

Now let me say I am not an instructor, which means I am not current on the most recent instructional techniques, however this does sound like a CROCK to me.

I too am pissing my pants with laughter!!;)

Cheers, HH.

:ok:

PS: I am not lughing at you, but at the person who came up with this ludicrous idea....

[wigga]

Good god.
:mad:
Definately a CROCK!!!

[Chimbu chuckles]

Dude...run, do not walk, to the nearest exit.

Please tell me you haven't paid up front and you haven't actually already done the sim and taxiing BS?

Seriously mate...CHANGE SCHOOLS!!!!!

[NZLeardriver]

This has got to be a wind-up.

If not HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH AHA
I can give you a good rate on taxi practice on my MS FlightSim. You will have to pay a bit more if you want to use the professional version tho.

[Bula]

I know of schools who have dedicated 30 mintue taxiing lessons but quite frankly how many times do you spend .2 taxiing prior to your first solo with an instructor, and between each solo with an instructor... quite frankly just dont do it mate... absolutle of no benefit and will hurt your flying until you have adapted some visual skills... exactly why flight sim jockies have such trouble adapting to visual flight when you cover up some of the six pack.

As for the Sim time..... good to see this schools focus is on the visual aspect of flying :(

If they dont send you solo because you ride the brakes a little... welll to be honest anything with a fair size donk in it you need to otherwise you accelerate when taxiing..... its how much you ride them versus power being used which is the problem..... especially in a piston.

What a load.........:mad: It just doesn't surprise me however.... anything for a buck

[gaunty]

Every now and then I get a really good belly laugh outa PPRuNe and this has been one.:D :D :D :{

pastadolla mate I'm sorry and if what you say is not a wind up I apologise most sincerely for laughing AND for the organisation that is masquerading as a flight school.

Now if the flight school was based at Heathrow, O'Hare or maybe Sydney Mascot ?????:confused:

[Puchatek]

If only it were a windup...... I heard of this the other week and thought it couldn't be true but alas I was proven wrong.

It's bad enough if the school is implementing this to make a bit of extra cash but even worse if they think it as actually a good idea and beneficial to a students' progress through flying training!

Somehow me thinks that the instructors will end up wondering why their student never looks out the cockpit while "actually" flying and then go back and supervise another one in the Sim!

:yuk:

[troppo]

And for today's wind up...

I wouldn't feel too hard done by given the quality of some instructors out there...I'd feel safer on the ground than in the air :p

[pastadolla]

No this is not a wind up!!

I would like to change flying schools but the problem is the flying component is part of my degree.

I just wanted to hear what your thoughts are on the matter as i am seriously considering whether or not to continue the course. I haven't done much flying before but i can even see that the taxiing and sim time is not going to help me one iota, just drain me of my money for no real reason...........

Thanks for your replies.

[NZLeardriver]

If your flight school is making you do 4 hours in the sim, and 2 hours taxiing before you begin anything else, then they are just trying to fleece more money off you. Welcome to Aviation - they dont care about you, they just want your money.
I would change schools straight away. At least other schools might be a bit more subtle about ripping you off.

[The Messiah]

If the average to go solo is around 15 hours, that is 15 opportunities to learn to taxi before you are on your own.

Change schools.

[Counter-rotation]

I've been in a similar situation...

I'm not right up with the exact details of YOUR situation, but don't think that because it is a component of a degree programme, you can't tell them to F*** O**. That is the most unbelievable rip-off I have heard of. As others have said, RUN, DON"T WALK!
Tell them you want your $$$ back, or you'll make them pay in ways that cost more. If you need some ideas, send me a PM.


(If this is a wind up, get a life and do something useful with it. If not, disregard this bit at the end!)

CR.

[flyby_kiwi]

Short answer - your getting ripped off and there is no doubt to it!

You are not alone - i have heard of this type of going on before.
As the previous posters have mentioned youll only go solo between 10-15hrs by which stage you will have a good hours worth taxiing - without being gods gift to aviation youll be able to taxi fine after just a few lessons. As far as the sim - how much are u paying? In anycase its too much - there is nothing a GA sim is good for apart from procedural IFR flying which you wont need to worry about until after your CPL.

My advice would be to either take your money and run or at least ask for a GOOD explanation from the powers that be.

[7gcbc]

Is this in Ad-Dull-ade ? , Frankly I'm not surprised one bit.

[DeltaSix]

Mate,

I'd ask for a refund.............. seriously. Tell them if they don't refund your money for this BS, you'll tell the other students what a bunch of crooks they are. Then change school because if they have started ripping you off even before you leave the ground, I can't just imagine what other stupid schemes to get your money they have in their bag of tricks. You'll be broke before you even finish your PPL.


D6

[OCTA]

Looks like nothing has changed even with the new "Academy" title.
Just do as most other people do after they work out how they are getting shafted, walk! Tell JO you want your money back and don't give up until you get it all back!
Don't believe anything they say about not passing the degree if you don't fly there it’s the only way they keep there students!
Go visit the shop over the road of even better forskin aviation they'll look after you and train you to a real world standard not into a clone.

OCTA

[Natit]

Uni SA Flying School sunk to new all time lows??

[LocoDriver]

What a rip off!

get a refund or change schools fast, or at the very least get an avaition lawyer (who is a pilot) to look at the situation.

Sounds like a very strange training scheme to me.Good luck!

:8

[dude65]

Pastadolla

I think it's been established that these people aren't doing the right thing by you.The question that now needs to be asked is how will your attitude towards this organisation affect your training.

Most people get ticked off when they find out that the garage down the road has fuel 2 cents a litre cheaper than the one they just filled up at.
How will you feel at the end of your training knowing your 1000's out of pocket? I think the resentment from this episode will be in the back of you mind every time you hop into one of their aircraft.

MOVE ON

[Transition Layer]

The sim time is definitely a crock and I would be very suspicious of that sort of nonsense.

However, I'm going to go out on a limb and go against what everyone else has said - I believe a 0.5 sortie in ground ops and taxiing is not such a bad idea! The institution I used to work at implemented this and whilst it sounds ridiculous it does serve a purpose.

The main reason is that it gives the student a chance to consolidate checklists (which previously they had just been learning by sitting in the aircraft), without the added pressure of actually getting airborne. They get familiar with taxiways, where to do run ups, the run up and pre-take off procedure itself. The actual art of taxiing isn't that hard of course, we all know that, but that's not the aim of the lesson.

There's nothing worse than getting in an aircraft with a student who is really struggling with checklists, where the hell they are taxiing (a common thing at places like BK), general SOPs etc. They have used all of their learning capacity for that lesson already, you may as well just turn around and go back when you get to the holding point. A short sortie in ground ops goes some way to alleviating this.

So yeah, a taxiing lesson may seem ridiculous, but provided the intent is there it's not such a bad idea. If it looks like they're trying to just scam soime cash (and 2hrs worth would suggest that!) then run as far as you can.

Cheers,
TL

[Captain Muff Diver]

I have heard of this outrage and can confirm it is all true.

TL I agree that say .5 of an hour to teach taxiing may be of some benifit. However two hours would be a crock. Can you imagin the condition of the spark plugs after idling around on the ground for hours on end?

I wont even get started on the sim.

Pastadola Run...

[Erin Brockovich]

Yeah, I’d agree that 0.5 taxiing as part of your first flight would be of benefit. It seems to me that the sim is just a money spinner with the added benefit of teaching the student bat habits from the start. Then the student would take longer to train to the required standard airborne and spend more money. Find a school that emphasizes attitude flying.

Mention Consumer Affairs when asking for your money back. If that doesn’t help, which I doubt then just get them involved. Don’t let this episode affect your interest or motivation with flying. There are some good flying schools out there I’m sure.

The funny thing is you get trained by the sharks, then go looking for your first job and go swimming with them. :hmm:

[7gcbc]

.5 for sure, even say a few fast tail up taxis on a tailwheel would be useful, but 2 hours on a bloody warrior ? and the sim time so early on? c'mon, thats just taking the :mad: piss.

I wonder how much they pay for their uniforms, bet thats also a rip off.

who sets the Syllabus there ? if it is ADL, then it just justifies what I always thought about the place.

[scrambler]

"Uniforms", is this another one of those schools that believes that you need a uniform to do your CPL training. W@nkers. its your dollar, get out of there

[LewC]

Pastadolla,if they've ripped you off for 6 hours worth before you've even been off the ground imagine how much they will be able screw out of you before you get anywhere near a licence test.Leave now!

[mattyj]

As I understand it, you cannot log any time in an aircraft unless it was started for the purposes of a flight, therefore, this time is useless to you and your instructor..plus the school will be using the standard maintenence proceedure of only using airtime to calculate time between inspections..

ie you are not benifiting, your instructor is not benifiting, and the school is making pure profit minus idle speed fuel burn...their accountant has gotta love this one!!!

[COLLIE]

My suggestion is;
If they want you to do 2.0 hours taxiing, do it in a real taxi and get the hell outa there! :E

[Susheel]

Pastadolla,


U got your choices, talk to Albie or Steve Thatcher and see what they say. The lectures at UNISA are great all of them including Terry Keen and very experienced.

By the way who is your flying instructor out there?

Till then, happy landings!

Susheel

[185skywagon]

7gc,
would have to agree with you with tailwheels, but trikes......
i reckon everyone would be better off doing to first part of their licence at a quiet contry airfield, so your focus can be on actually learning to fly without all the other stuff. you also don't waste the 10-20 minutes taxying every hour.

pastadolla,
find somwhere else.

185.

[Onewordanswer]

Am I getting ripped off?

Short answer............Yes

Longer answer..........Don't worry you have plenty of company, Welcome to the wonderful world of those magnificent men and their flying machines:E

[Iva Biggin]

Susheel

U got your choices, talk to Albie or Steve Thatcher and see what they say. The lectures at UNISA are great all of them including Terry Keen and very experienced.

Experienced !! You have got to be joking.

TK is not a pilot.
AF is very very ex pilot.

How many of your instructors have ever flown a charter or even worked in the industry? Have they flown anything other than a warrior?

The CFI is the only person with the credentials. His hands are tied with all the bureaucracy that comes from the Uni.

Pastadola run fast!

[Natit]

TK and AF both great blokes, but they haven't flown for quite some time I believe.

Stay away! Tell the academy to stick it and go to Forsyth's.

[Woomera]

Taxi time charged at the dual rate = no Maintenance Release time recorded!

Nice little money maker!!!

[Susheel]

Iva,

Terry does or did hold a cpl and did some charter jobs ( cant be sure of the jobs he did but quite sure he held a CPL) . As much as Albie has been out....he still knows whats going on in the industry.

Well from personal experience, i did not fly at the academy but ST did give me an exelent mark for Flight Planing !

As for the others i cant say much as i have not had much contact with.

All i said was for that guy to speak to them for alternatives.

Cheers

[Wizofoz]

The taxying crock has been well covered.

Regarding doing 2 hour Sim before getting in an Aircraft- Does this sim have decent visuals? Where you being taught to fly by primary visual reference and was look-out stressed?

If they are starting you out in an instrument procedual trainer, giving primacy to head-down IF flying, they are not just rip-off artists, they are lousy teachers as well!

[maxgrad]

ask the powers that be there for a space shuttle endorsement.
If you stay there you might as well get ripped off totally.

taxy prac...do it as part of training flight, if problems, then address them with practice or other form.

Sim...like getting into a burner and told to set up the FMC at ab initio stage, waste of time.

All the previous posts,(including mine) say the same thing.



runrunrunrunrunrunrunrunrunrunrunrunrunrunrunrun

[Tempo]

People relax. This is quite obviously a wind up!!!!
And its gone to 3 pages.....amazing.

[NZLeardriver]

So, any update from Pastadolla ?

[Chadzat]

People relax. This is quite obviously a wind up!!!!

Unfortunately you are incorrect.

The sim is very capable and has great graphics.

While I don't necissarily agree with the whole 2 hrs taxi time, I think those of you that are drawing conclusions about other things completely unrelated to this should get your facts straight before you go posting.

[Onewordanswer]

Do you have anyone to wobble the chair?

[pastadolla]

So, any update from Pastadolla ?

It seems my question of whether I was being ripped off was unanimously(sp?) answered long ago. I have since decided there is no way that I am going to be doing my flying component at the Academy and am in the process of looking around for a suitable school (any suggestions on a good school at Parafield would be appreciated!).


I hope this is indeed a windup because as Tempo incorrectly pointed out my post is not. I guess i will find out eventually and will be pretty angry if this is the case. In all honesty I am starting to lose faith and wonder whether I should continue my course at all or whether i should just self study and fly at a reputable school..........

Thanks for the replies.

[maxgrad]

Don't let this situation cloud your ideals on the aviation scene.

This is an isolated happening.

Unfortunately at near on every airport in the country you may find acts along the same line.

I still fail to see how these uni courses ultimately help in your progression in the industry. Why not learn to fly through a GOOD school which suits your req's and do a degree in business management or the like?

[Centaurus]

Two or three hours of basic instrument panel familiarisation, throttle and mixture handling and even basic radio procedures on a synthetic trainer is a good cost saving measure. Effects of controls, climbing, straight and level and descending in the synthetic trainer can be of great value and you don't get airsick. Providing you are being taught by an experienced and good flying instructor in the synthetic trainer, it can save you at least three hours of expensive airborne time.

You should be able to go solo in the real aeroplane under 10 hours with previous synthetic trainer instruction. Providing you have a grade one instructor teaching you the whole time, an average student should solo by 8 hours.

It is when a grade 3 inexperienced new instructor is teaching you, is when the time to solo escalates significantly along with the commensurate costs. I have seen it happen many times.

The beauty of it is that if the weather is unsuitable for actual flying, you can practice in the trainer and enjoy a coffee break. Makes for relaxed and enjoyable instruction

Although the synthetic trainer is flying on instruments, nevertheless, the "engine handling" prepares you for the real thing. Disregard the point of view that use of the trainer will cause a problem with looking outside the cockpit in the real aircraft. It simply doesn't happen.

If you are a couple of hundred feet too high, or IAS too fast for the configuration during visual flight in the real thing, you have to keep an eye on the flight instruments to regain the desired state of flight. That does not mean to say you are "locked " on to those instruments simply because you had previously "flown" a synthetic trainer.

As far as dual taxiing practice is concerned prior to your first flight, well there is no doubt that not only is this entirely unnecessary - but it is a total rip-off and a waste of your money. Interesting to see if the instructor who does this taxiing "practice" with you, logs the time in his log book - even though the aircraft is not going to actually take off.

Seems to me that CASA should look closely at the practices of the particular flying school operator.

[Sunfish]

Pasta, for a start, a warrior taxis like a dream compared to a Cessna 150 - which is what I started learning in. My only Taxi "practice" was being asked not to hit the lights in the middle of the taxiway with the nosewheel.

Translation: Unless this is a wind - up, you are being ripped off, unless you have mindbogglingly tight taxiways and the school has a stack of broken wingtips to prove its students need the instruction.

[Natit]

Pastadolla,

Walk down the road and go see Dave at Forsyth Aviation.

Great bloke and knows his stuff - will not stuff you around.

[Roger Standby]

I must have had the same instructor as Sunfish. My instructors taxiing training was simply "for every taxi way centreline light you hit, you owe me a longneck":ok:

R_S.

[Towering Q]

A longneck for every taxiway light? That's a bit much. Now a longneck for every threshold light on those undershoot landings would be a better deal.:uhoh: