Flying Instructors using the title Captain

[Hopeful Harry]

I've noticed at a few flying schools that some instructors use the title
Captain xxxxx and like to be addressed by that title. I find it pretentious and nauseous, it doesnot sit right when you then see Capt xxxxx climb into a C152. There is nothing wrong in being a C152 instructor but calling yourself Captain xxxxx seems rather arrogant and would put me off if I was a student.
What does everyone else think?

[Say again s l o w l y]

To be honest anyone who insists on being called Captain needs a dose of reality. Ego problems I reckon.

Anyway I much prefer my title of Grand High Poo-Bah. Conveys the right message I think.

Captain! Honestly....... You'll be telling me they wear 4 gold bars next! Oh ......

[Whirlybird]

At the school I'm at, trial lesson students get a certificate saying that Captain Whirlybird took them flying, and though nobody's commented on the fact that I don't wear four gold bars, I'm sure they'd be delighted if I did. I'm told that helicopter trial lesson students like it - it's often a one off, a big day, and the more razmatazz the better. I remain unconvinced, but like I said on another thread somwhere, if the the school wanted me to wear a teddy bear outfit I'd probably comply. :)

And actually I don't think I'd be that surprised either,

[foxmoth]

You may also find some instructors are actually Airline Captains instructing in their spare time and entitled to the rank (Though I suspect most of these are not the ones that insist on it being used:p ):hmm:

[hugh flung_dung]

This raises a couple of questions: is the term "Captain" a position or a title? what makes a Captain a Captain?

[md 600 driver]

too many years ago i was on my solo cross country from sherburn to donnington [east midlands ] when i arrived there i heard a announcement on the pa systems that Will the captain of the cessna 150 reg XXX that has just landed please report to the tower


i walked over to the tower 6 inches taller that day

steve

[Unwell_Raptor]

There was a Jewish businessman who spent his whole life working 18 hours a day, until the day came when he could sell his business for millions of pounds.

He went down to Camper & Nicholson and ordered a state of the art yacht, teak decks, and all the toys. Some months later the boatbuilders rang to say the boat was finished. Off he went to Savile Row, where he had himself fitted out with a Captain's uniform, two rows of buttons. lots of gold, and white trousers, and of course a cap.

He turned up at his old mother's house, resplendently attired, and burst into the sitting room.

"Look Momma, your boy's a Captain".

Momma looked.

"Son" she said "By you you're a captain. By me you're a captain. But by a CAPTAIN you're a captain?

[Whirlybird]

Hugh,

I got told that once you had a CPL you were entitled to call yourself "Captain". Always found it a bit odd - I had less than 200 rotary hours and no job at the time! Come to think of it, I still find it odd. But if other people want to call me Captain, what do I care - I've been called worse.:)

Of course, this means that most fairly recent instructors - since JAR anyway - are Captains. But those with grandfather rights aren't, unless they happen to be airline Captains. it also means that most First Officers are Captains, even if they're not called that. Confusing or what??? :confused: :confused: :confused:

[Liar's Poker]

Captain in the airline sense is an honorific: something that other people call you out of respect, but it is not a title or rank. People who actually care about such things would consider it rather pompous to use an honorific to describe yourself. Most people couldn't care less :)

Traditionally, senior military officers can retain their rank as a title once they leave the services, but army Captains are not high enough rank to do this (didn't stop Captain Mark Phillips though). Navy Captains, on the other hand, are - so, formally, the only people that should call them Captain Bloggs are current Army officers or current or ex-navy Officers.

In the real world, you can call yourself anything you like as long as you don't attempt to obtain advantage through it, so if you want to call yourself Captain then why not? A CPL or ATPL has nothing to do with it (although you would be considered a real pratt if you called yourself Captain Bloggs if you weren't a Captain of any sort, and Captian of a C152 barely counts).

[youngskywalker]

Most things in aviation were copied from the Navy, airline pilots wear by tradition Naval unifroms, Captain and first officer are essentially Naval ranks. In fact lot's of names and words used in aviation stem from the old sea dogs. I suppose that anyone who is in charge of a vehicle is a Captain whether that be a ship, rowing boat, 747 or c152!

However actually using the rank Captain when your flying a little plane is perhaps a little pedantic! :yuk:

['I' in the sky]

A CAA examiner was at our school doing a series of IR tests and decided he had time to do some sampling flights - observe some of the instructors at work. So there I am afterwards reading his report on the lesson I had given. " Capt XXXXX did this, Capt XXXXX did that etc, etc" and thought the whole thing sounded pretty rediculous, made so much worse by the fact that it hall happened in a Frasca.

[RVR800]

In a multi-crew environment you have a subordinate on the flight deck to 'captain'. In GA that is not the case. Although you are the man in charge. As an FI you have a subordinate - the student - so yes thats me yes what the heck Im a captain...!

[Delta Wun-Wun]

I think "Captain" is too pompus.......I much prefere..................."His Excellency Delta Wun-Wun" BA, DSO,MBNA, CPL,PPL,MA.CSE,BISCUIT TIN and Bar:cool:...."Oi...Do you know how important I am????"

[Whirlybird]

Well, you may call me Her Royal Highness Whirlybird if you wish; I don't mind, honest! :)

[BigEndBob]

Wait till you have an accident...then you find out who's called captain!

[airpilot]

I don't call myself Captain, I prefer Vice Air Marshall myself

[African Drunk]

I believe Aer Lingus used to ask a room full of pilots attending interviews to put there hands up if they were captains. And then give a spiel about them all being captains.

When I was cfi of a school guys would phone up calling me captain x, which I hated. But when flying AOC work on PA34 I always introduced myself as captain x as it makes the punters happy.

[NotamCheck]

Why do these same threads keep popping up time after time?

Should FI's wear a tie/stripes/shoes (delete as applicable) ?
should FI's be 'allowed' to call themselves captain/commander/pilot/bob (delete as applicable) ?

The old arguement about an airline pilot has 'earned' his title and uniform for having a CPL/IR. What about the FI's who have a CPL/IR AND and FI rating. They are more qualifed and choose to teach and fly in light aircraft rather than just press buttons in an airline.

As someone has already mentioned, the Captain of a small fishing boat has the same title as the Captain of the QEII

For the record, as to what my students address me as...they don't speak unless I allow them to first :O

[Hopeful Harry]

The question maybe;
If you were sending in your cv for a job application in a different company such as an airline would you sign your name Captain xxxx or would you just use this title for the benefit of your students?
My thoughts are still that any instructor who likes to use the title Capt instead of Mr/Mrs/Miss sounds like they may have a big ego.

[NotamCheck]

The question maybe:
When you are sending in your CV for an airline position such as Captain, remember who trained you to allow you to apply in the first place!

[airborne_artist]

As someone has already mentioned, the Captain of a small fishing boat has the same title as the Captain of the QEII

In UK parlance/waters the captain of a merchant vessel (ie not a warship) is the Master, and they are normally referred to as such in the trade, on radio calls etc. In the RN the captain of the vessel can be any rank from Lieutenant upwards, but is still referred to as Lt/Lt Cdr/Commander/Captain Bloggs, the Captain of HMS Bloggstown.

[Noggin]

I recall a RAF VC10 where the CAPTAIN was a Flying Officer, the co-pilot a Squadron Leader, the engineer and navigator were both Flight Lieutenants.

The captain was the most junior member of the crew, only had one bar (not gold) and was paid the least, but he had signed for the aircraft, so had more responsibility than any of the others.

In the case of Nimrods, many CAPTAINS are not even pilots!

[NotamCheck]

Even school football teams have a captain, should that be allowed too? :D

[DRJAD]

Apropos nothing in particular, I wrote to an MSP on a GA issue, and signed myself simply by my first name, one of the middle initials, and surname, as usual.

An acknowledgement came by return of post (virtually) - amazing enough in itself. However, it was clearly addressed to Captain DRJAD - which very much impressed the postperson, and caused considerable amusement to Mrs DRJAD!

[effortless]

I know of a certain FI who is known as the "Policeman". Should we call him superintendant? :}

[Empty Cruise]

...does that mean that - if I take a trial lesson in one of these so-called "helicopters" - I can have a certificate that states:

"HRH Captain Whirlybird conducted the blah-blah-blah displaying great blah-blah above & beyond her blah-blah-blah, now never do that again you fixed-wing blah-blah tw*t" :p

Damn, that's almost worth the 400 quid you'd probably charge me - where does one sign up? :D

Empty

[Onan the Clumsy]

Interesting question.

Perhaps one place where it might be appropriate would be in one of those zero to ATP flight schools.

Setting a professional environment in the a/c etc teaching skills the way you're going to use them. Hopefully it would stop once the lesson stopped though.

In a nice relaxed chummy sort of setting I think it'd be too embarassing to even try.


I wrote cummy by mistake :p

[Hopeful Harry]

........ David Beckham is Captain of the England team but I have not heard of him being referred to as Captain Beckham.

I've heard of Captain Mark Phillips don't think he is a flying instructor

[shortstripper]

My best mate at college was brother of Pete Goss the famous sailor. When we were at college, Pete was a sail training "Captain" in the marines even though he was low ranking. His job was to teach officers to sail and work as a team. Whilst on board any rank was under his command and subject to his (wickedly humorous) discipline ... which was often dished out to bring them down to earth! :E

I think a civvie flying instructor is a bit different though, and calling one captain is a wee bit OTT :rolleyes:

SS

[MaximumPete]

I feel that as I've never held a commission the rank of Captain was something given to me by my Company. It is up to the Company to decide how it wants it's employees addressed. When I was doing my CPL course a AST Perth back in the sixties all flying instructors had to addressed as Captain.

Indeed, on retirement I received a letter from my Operation Director, signed by him, addressing me as MR.

Fine, 'cos that's what I am and always will be and I feel it deceitful to use the title Captain. If I'm trying to get a better room for me and the Mrs at a hotel I sometimes refer to myself as a former airline captain, i.e. job not title.

MP;)

[v12merlin]

What a stimulating debate!

Who gives a S##T anyway?

[Zlin526]

I've got a canoe. Can I be called Captain?:8

[Heli-Ice]

C'mon it's just a title! No big deal. :cool:

[What time is ECT?]

All who are pilot in command are captaining of some sort. These commanders all share the same airspace, and have the same responsibility as a Boeing driver.

A Captain is a measure of responsibility and maturity. I hope all pilots take the same pride in their flying.

[Scoob]

There are a lot of arrogant people in the UK who are working in entry level flying jobs. It is quite often their downfall. The place I work now hired a guy a year or so ago, he had less than 500hrs and was being trained to fly single pilot in a twin turboprop. He told everyone who would listen and I do mean everyone, that he was the captain although not for long as it was just a temporary thing until he decides which airline to work for. He wasn't even checked out yet, his attitude got him swiftly replaced. If I got an instructor who demanded to be called captain, I would call him a tosser and ask for another instructor. Even in things like 747's the Capt never asks to be called captain x. I think the reason some people in a 150 or similar want to be called capt is because they have an ego problem that is made worse because they are in a small plane. Also very strange when people wear 4 bars when they don't have to.

[DFC]

There are a lot of arrogant people in the UK who are working in entry level flying jobs

Or is it that there are other higher level operatives who are arrogant and don't want their perceived status diluted?

What people want to be called and what they wear is up to them.

Regards,

DFC

[Scoob]

Of course what people want to be called and what they wear is their decision but to insist on being called captain at any level of flying (military not included) in my opinion shows an ego problem that could be unsafe if it goes further than just the title. I may be completly wrong but if I had a flying instructor who insisted on being called captain x I would not want to fly with him becase he may be so far up his own ass that it would compromise safety should a problem arise. I have tought students who had egos and it is one of the most unsafe attitudes to have, some of them may now be instructors and I would not want them teaching me if they had a chip on their shoulder with 20hrs because by now with 250 they will probably be the best pilot in the world and want to be called captain.

[Old Smokey]

Did anyone bother to consult a dictionary? A Captain is the leader of a crew or team, e.g. Darts Captain, Football Captain, Airline Captain. No Crew, no Captain. The pilot of a single pilot aircraft with no crew is the Pilot in Command, not the Captain. A student does not qualify as being crew.

In 39 years I have never encountered an Airline Captain who insisted upon being called Captain (although I'm sure that some exist). It is a very convenient title to call them if you don't know their name.

To address a question raised many posts ago in this thread, Captain is the lowest rank in the armed forces in the British Commonwealth, which one may retain as their title upon leaving the armed services.

What's next? - First Aid certificate holders calling themselves Doctor seems reasonable.

Regards,

Old Smokey

[DFC]

A student does not qualify as being crew

The students is part of the crew - they are an essential part of an instructional flight - if an instructor was paid to carry a passenger then that would be public transport!

Did anyone bother to consult a dictionary

Not until now but here is one option from the Oxford Dictionary

"the pilot of a civil aircraft"

I am sure that of all the people who object not one are professional airline captains.........more likely as I said previously, lesser pilots who think that an ATPL (which they obtained on C150 aircraft) entitles them to be called Captain and take offence at pilots of other C150s who call them selves Captain but don't have a Cessna 150 ATPL! :D :D :D

Who cares (except the C150 ATPL holders)?

Regards,

DFC

[Scoob]

I am sure that of all the people who object not one are professional airline captains.........more likely as I said previously, lesser pilots who think that an ATPL (which they obtained on C150 aircraft) entitles them to be called Captain and take offence at pilots of other C150s who call them selves Captain but don't have a Cessna 150 ATPL!

I would think it was objectional for anyone to insist their f/o, student or anyone else unlucky enough to be sitting next to them called them captain. You are right, I am not an airline pilot and I do not fly with a crew although if the aircraft was on a G reg I would have to, that is not the point. The point is what I have said above. I do not think I am more worthy of the term captain because I fly a bigger plane than a c150 or because I have an ATP, even if I eventually get into the left seat of an airliner I would never think I am more of a captain than a c150 pilot yes I would have more responsibility and probably more experience but be no more of a captain. I would however never insist I was called captain by members of my crew at any level of aviation, I never have as I think it is a stupid thing to do.
By saying lesser pilots with an atpl above you have just launched yourself into my book of people with an ego problem. You think that because someone dosent work for an airline they are lesser pilots. You tosser, you have obviously never been out into the real world. Do you think it is more demanding to fly a 747 to japan or a Piper Chieftan from LA to Oakland single pilot at night, full of freight, in the clouds with a broken autopilot in the middle of winter. You have no idea and to make a comment like that just goes to show how sheltered your career so far has been, let me guess, integrated course and now you instruct. Never think someone is a lesser pilot going by what they fly or do. You have also hit upon the problem with lots of people, get an ATPL(frozen) and try to get a job with an airline, don't make it so they complain about how hard it is to get a job because they don't want to be a lesser pilot and fly a smaller plane.
As I said before, so many idiots out there in UK aviation.

[DFC]

You tosser, you have obviously never been out into the real world

Listen son,

I was delivering to Bagdad while you were still in Dad's bag.

Take some English lessons and read my post again - you did not understand what I was saying because in all my posts I clearly state;

who cares less........but I draw the line at "Tosser" from people with your attitude.

Regards,

DFC

[Bravo73]

Old Smokey,

Sorry to be a pedant but this is from the Collins English Dictionary:

captain (`kæpt€n) n.
1. the person in charge of and responsible for a vessel.
2. an officer of the navy who holds a rank junior to a rear admiral but senior to a commander.
3. an officer of the army, certain air forces, and the marine corps who holds a rank junior to a major but senior to a lieutenant.
4. the officer in command of a civil aircraft, usually the senior pilot.
5. the leader of a team in games.
6. a person in command over a group, organization, etc.; leader:a captain of industry.

I bring your attention to items 4 & 5. Did YOU bother to consult a dictionary? ;)


Regards,

B73

[Say again s l o w l y]

Scoob,
There is a lot more to being a good captain than just the ability to fly a crappy a/c in god-awful conditions.

A 74 skipper has an awful lot more responsibility than a freight jock (I have been one so I know a little bit about it before you call me a tosser).

Again, if you fly a 150 and insist on being called captain, then I'll be the one pointing at you and doubled up with laughter in the club house.
On the flight deck, then you are the Captain with all the responsibility and pressure that that position entails and that is 1000X greater than any Cessna. Horses for courses, for example there are many similarities between a VW Golf and an F1 car, just because I am licenced to drive the Golf, does that mean I can call myself a potential competetive F1 driver?

Whilst you are the a/c commander when you fly anything P1, the title captain is an honorific and sounds very gauche if you use it out of context.

[212man]

Old Smokey, I think you'll find your statement:

"To address a question raised many posts ago in this thread, Captain is the lowest rank in the armed forces in the British Commonwealth, which one may retain as their title upon leaving the armed services."

is not correct. Only senior officers may use their rank after retirement, and senior is Major/Sqn Ldr/Lt Cmdr and above. Captain Mark Phillips being the exception, of course!

I agree about anyone who inists on being referred to as Captain probably needs some ego reduction therapy.

[Scoob]

I am not saying someone who flys a crap plane is a better pilot I just objected to DFC saying non airline pilots were lesser pilots. I also agreed that a 747 capt has more resposibility.

[A37575]

In another life I was called "Skipper" when I flew LH seat as a lowly Sergeant Pilot in a Lincoln bomber with 10 crew looking for non-existent foreign submarines in the Arafura Sea (look it up on the map). Even the officers in my crew called me Skipper, while I called them by their position in the crew such as Nav, Sig, Rear Gunner etc. Back on the ground I was just "Sergeant" to everyone which certainly very quickly put paid to any delusions of grandeur as a pilot.

[cavortingcheetah]

;) Seems to me to be a sneakily shallow sea in which to surreptitiously sally forth as a sanguinivorous submerged
submarine skipper.:hmm: :\

[Onan the Clumsy]

S'not so. Said sea seems shallow so strong shouldered submariners sailed silently, singing songs serenading sergeant, successfully stupifying searchers.

[cavortingcheetah]

:) Brilliant.
I wish I'd thought of that.:D

[Old Smokey]

Bravo73,

This is an entirely frivolous topic, and as someone rightly said "Who cares?"

In the continuing spirit of frivolity and trivia, I'm not sure if you're agreeing with me or correcting me.

I said - "A Captain is the leader of a crew or team, e.g. Darts Captain, Football Captain, Airline Captain".

And you said -
"1. the person in charge of and responsible for a vessel.
2. an officer of the navy who holds a rank junior to a rear admiral but senior to a commander.
3. an officer of the army, certain air forces, and the marine corps who holds a rank junior to a major but senior to a lieutenant.
4. the officer in command of a civil aircraft, usually the senior pilot.
5. the leader of a team in games.
6. a person in command over a group, organization, etc.; leader:a captain of industry.

I bring your attention to items 4 & 5. Did YOU bother to consult a dictionary?"

Yes, I did consult a dictionary, with very similar results to yours.
Point 1 is very open ended, so let's take a look at 2 to 6.
Point 2 indicates someone senior to a commander, and a commander definately has a crew of subordinates.
Point 3 indicates someone senior to a lieutenant, and a commander definately has a crew of subordinates.
Point 4 (to which you bring my attention) indicates "usually the senior pilot", and as usually means 'most of the time', and senior directly implies that there are junior crew, then most of the time my statement is correct.
Point 5 (to which you bring my attention) indicates "the leader of a team in games". Did I not use 'Darts Captain, Football Captain' as examples?
Point 6 indicates "command over a group, organization, etc.", did I not mention 'A Captain is the leader of a crew or team"? Group, organization, crew, and team are very similar in their interpretation.

Having re-read this of necessity 4 to 5 times due to typing, I think that I scored a "kill" for items 2,3,5, and 6, at least half a "kill" for item 4, and God only knows for item 1. Methinks we have two pedantics pitted against each other here on a frivolous topic.:O

212man, you are absolutely positively correct, I crashed and burned on that one, Major is indeed the lowest rank that may be carried into retirement. I had "Captain" on the brain as I typed the post.

I flew for many years as Pilot in Command of single pilot aircraft, and winced when someone called me Captain. When I became a Captain (of a crew), I still winced when someone called me Captain, thinking "Oh sheeyut, he doesn't know my name".

There's no such thing as better or worse / lower pilots. When I've flown Tiger Moth through to B747 in my career, I've always thought that the most important aircraft in the sky was the one that I was in at the time. Within the fraternity of pilots, there is no rank, there's more than a few tossers though!

Regards,

Old Smokey

[excrab]

Whilst I hate to bring this thread even lower than the level to which it has already descended, I am much taken by the definition of a captain as

"the person in charge of and responsible for a vessel"

As I have a glass of lager next to my computer whilst I type this, of which I am in sole charge, and a glass is a vessel containing liquid, am I now a captain. If so, am I a captain of the lager glass or the computer.

I will quickly order four gold bars from transair.

[idle stop]

How about a new thread:
'Flying Instructors calling themselves Captain, wearing Gold Bars and Refusing to Spin' ?
Probably all the same persons!

Seriously, however, those who have worked in the air transport industry, who have been accorded the courtesy title (it is only that) of Captain by their employers and have (honorably?) moved on to (perhaps) lowlier things, may be entitled to be accorded the continued courtesy. Those same people would probably never stand on their dignity and insist on the courtesy title being acknowledged. They would probably also have the discretion to know when and when not it was appropriate for themselves to display or invoke that courtesy title. Respect has to be earned and maintained by continued professionalism. It cannot be assumed by a self-invoked title or Ruritanian uniform trappings.

[212man]

I have seen some individuals who use the title in their phone book reference. Now that is beyond the pale!

[cavortingcheetah]

;) Oh I don't know.
I quite like the sound of:

His Excellency Kommandant Cavorting Cheetah
That Tree There.
Bushberg.:p

[WrongWayCorrigan]

I used to sing in a punk band called Kaptin Phallus in the 70's. I relished that title.

Apart from that, might have some respect for a tug-boat captain.

[OpenCirrus619]

Does that mean that the pilot :cool: of the Super Cub at Edgehill is entitled to respect?? Even the title "Captain"? :O

It is, after all, our tug. :\

[WrongWayCorrigan]

don't tug it too much !

[Gerhardt]

"O captain! My captain!"

[Earthmover]

Rich American comes to Scotland every year and hires exceptionally competent gun-dog called 'Co-Pilot' for $1000 a week.

On his next visit he's told that it'll only cost him $50 because the previous week someone called him 'Captain' and all he's done since is sit on his @rse and bark! ;)

Is this thread for real?