Loadsheet original-who keeps it???

[quarefellah]

Hi All!
We have just been told that the commander's copy of the loadsheet (which (s)he retains) will be the carbon copy and not the original. The original is kept at the dep. station.

In some 17 years of airline flying I have never come across this before. Is it only me that thinks this ludicrous??? Because here, the governing authority and my employer are practically one and the same, I don't see it changing back to the old (originals on board) system. Does anyone have any legal/tech input???

[Rainboe]

You don't say what or where you're from, even in your profile....go on! Just a clue what continent?

What you describe is pretty well standard in many places. A legal copy has to be kept- this is easiest if it the retained ground copy. Nowadays, in BA, all flight deck paperwork is disposed of if not required for further examination. Original legal copies of loadsheets would only get lost with all the other gumpf anyway- better they retain the original on the ground? What do you see is the problem?

[quarefellah]

Hi Rainboe,
OK, well that's news to me. I understood that the originals are kept on board so that the Captain always can refer to AND present the original documents should (s)he be required to do so. Other examples of this principle include the NOTOC, Tech Log etc. Perhaps like your nickname this has become obsolete. It's worth pointing out that all the major carriers (incl. BA), operating from our home base, get ACARS loadsheets using the same aircraft types but ours are still brought to the aircraft. Wonder why that is? Wouldn't be people protecting their jobs would it?

I work in the ME for a major Gulf carrier but you'll have to 'keep on discovering' who that is. :)

[Rainboe]

OK, now we know where, others in the region could step in with local knowledge.
BA does not keep original loadsheets or NOTOCs on the aeroplane- they are handed back after signing. To be honest, it's nice now not to have to try and find these things after the flight, and if they are required by somebody, they can go to the airline. All other paperwork also is not required unless an ASR is raised. Tech log original is required onboard, so copies passed over with the original loadsheet/NOTOC.
Once used to them, ACARs loadsheets work pretty well, but the groundstaff have to be educated well with them. You should still sign a Provisional loadsheet by -20, but that frequently gets bypassed, and you get the everything at the last minute with barely enough time for checking. IF they follow procedures, it works. But then of course,it depends on the whole centralised Load Control getting the ACARS out within a reasonable time after pushback. BA seems to be poor sometimes, with ACARS loadsheets not coming from 4000 miles away until +20 sometimes, causing embarrassing refusals to line up 'awaiting the figures'. It makes crews incandescent sometimes.

[Maude Charlee]

I think the original posting relates to who retains which copy of loadsheets printed/prepared on carbon paper.

Usually the top copy with all the original writing/signatures in ink is kept by the flight deck crew, with the subsequent carbon copies kept by other interested parties (ground handler, senior CC etc). Presumably this is to prevent amendments being made to copies held by other parties, although it doesn't take a genius to figure out how to do that.

[Rainboe]

You see, turn that upside down and you have the situation in BA and many other airlines! Better to keep for posterity the original on the ground! The crew only needs copies! If you're going to say how it's done, you have to say which airline! BA don't do it your way!

[Engineer]

For aircraft operated under the JAR umbrella it is documented as follows

JAR-OPS 1.135
Additional information and forms to be carried
(a) An operator shall ensure that, in addition to the documents and manuals prescribed in JAR-OPS 1.125 and JAR-OPS 1.130, the following information and forms, relevant to the type and area of operation, are carried on each flight:
(1) Operational Flight Plan containing at least the information required in JAR-OPS 1.1060;
(2) Aeroplane Technical Log containing at least the information required in JAR-OPS 1.915(a);
(3) Details of the filed ATS flight plan;
(4) Appropriate NOTAM/AIS briefing documentation;
(5) Appropriate meteorological information;
(6) Mass and balance documentation as specified in Subpart J;
(7) Notification of special categories of passenger such as security personnel, if not
considered as crew, handicapped persons, inadmissible passengers, deportees and persons in custody;
(8) Notification of special loads including dangerous goods including written information to the commander as prescribed in JAR-OPS 1.1215(d);
(9) Current maps and charts and associated documents as prescribed in JAR-OPS 1.290(b)(7);
(10)Any other documentation which may be required by the States concerned with this flight, such as cargo manifest, passenger manifest etc; and
(11) Forms to comply with the reporting requirements of the Authority and the operator.

(b)The Authority may permit the information detailed in sub-paragraph (a) above, or parts thereof, to be presented in a form other than on printed paper. An acceptable standard of accessibility, usability and reliability must be assured.

As JARs complies with the ICAO standards maybe one can assume that operators outside the EU have smiliar requirements.

[Rainboe]

So it's irrelevant whether originals or copies are used. Down to local procedures then.

[Yaw String]

Some bright spark once pointed out to me that most legible copy i.e. top copy should be left with ground station. During the post accident investigation it would be more easy to reference.
Makes sense to me but life will go on whichever copy you leave behind. I can think of more pressing issues of flight safety to pursue though!.
Cheers,
Yaw String, mostly over Afghanistan this month.

[Faire d'income]

Some bright spark once pointed out to me that most legible copy i.e. top copy should be left with ground station. During the post accident investigation it would be more easy to reference.

What if an illegible loadsheet had contributed to said accident?

You can dispatch without a CVR but it would not be wise to dispatch without the best copy of the loadsheet. It doesn't matter whether that is the original or the copy.

The only place I ever encounted a conflict on the matter was in EGKK with a very unpleasant female redcap who told be incorrectly that it was DOTT regulations that she should have the original. I said that's fine but go back and get me another. :ok:

[Rainboe]

What if an illegible loadsheet had contributed to said accident?

Most of British aviation operates on copy loadsheets quite satisfactorily! You will always find people who look for ways against going with the status quo, but the fact remains the vast majority of British aviation has a status quo which is perfectly reasonable and has not been implicated in any accidents- leaving the original on the ground! Either way, it really isn't much odds, is it? There are far more important things to be thrashed to death in pprune rather than who has the bloody original loadsheet! Let's move on, shall we?