Runups on the runway?

[Horatio Leafblower]

Several times in the past week I have watched as a multi-engine IFR aircraft has entered and backtracked at a regional airport after a super-spreading aircraft has joined the circuit.

The pilot of the twin backtracks niiiiice and steady, then sits on the end of the runway as the turbine fletcher goes round, and round, and round... three go-rounds in one effort last week!

This is not an isolated incident but has happened three times in the last fortnight.

Surely there is ample time to do all your run-ups etc on the apron before the scheduled depature time....!?! :ooh:

[Sunfish]

Skygods I've seen at YMMB seem to do it all while they are rolling. They call "ready" about 50 metres from the holding point, and are usually cleared without stopping.

[im-a-pirate2]

Well sending another AC around is no good, but provided theres no other traffic at the time I don't see any problem with runups on the rwy. Used to do it at my last operator all the time in both singles and twins.

[kimwestt]

:mad: What about the basic tenets of airmanship and good manners? As a recently retired CP of a largish GA mob, any pilot doing runups on the rwy would have a big pls explain. That is what the runup bay is for. When you line up you are supposed to be ready, don't pass the holding point until you are. And as for causing other a/c to go round, it occurs to me that there is something in the AIP's about landing a/c having priority.
That pilot would definitely be encouraged to keep flying - on the other side of oz.
Attitude is not restricted to an a/c.

[Chief galah]

Broadcast intentions then land long over the top would get his attention.

[OzExpat]

I don't see a problem in delaying the runups if taxying is prolonged. Of course, it's something else if it ends up causing an approaching aircraft to go around.

[Ultralights]

if you have a long taxi, why not do the runups while taxiing? rather than while on the active runway? i was taught the only reason you should be on the active side of a holding point is to line up and take off, or on roll out after landing, and exit at the next available exit, unless cleared for a rollthrough.

[404 Titan]

I too use to be the chief pilot of a large all twin charter company up north until 2000 and if I found any of my pilots doing run ups with the park brake on I would send him down to the hanger afterwards with a file in hand to remove the nicks out of the props under the supervision of a LAME. Most aerodromes in Australia don’t have run up bays. That’s a trait of Primary airports, GAAP’s and larger regional aerodromes. Most have gravel or have very poor sealed surfaces with loose stones. Very few have full length taxiways either. Almost all have very small parking areas which leaves the pilot with very few options. Do the run ups in the parking bay and risk damaging the props from loose gravel or worse injuring someone nearby or doing them on the move. Brake pads are a small cost compared to props and the risk of injuring someone or damaging someone else’s property. It was just too high a risk hence the requirement to do run ups on the move with the exception of Cairns and Townsville where bays were provided. It is also worth mentioning that almost all POH that I have come across recommend run ups on the move if the airport is covered in loose gravel or clearing the area under the props to avoid chipping the props.

My experience with agricultural aircraft and their idea of a circuit is also greatly different. They regularly did very abbreviated circuits and on almost all occasions were operating no coms into and out of CTAFS. I lost count of the times I found myself backtracking Mareeba to find a duster turning a very close final at about 100 ft from a very close downwind. I had done all the required broadcasts and additional ones prior to entering the active. If they didn’t have radios surely they must have seen me backtracking the runway. I’m not saying this is what happened here but for the aircraft to have done three missed approaches before the twin departed seems excessive to say the least. Something here doesn’t add up.

[VRB03KT CAVOK]

Run-ups on the run are all good and well as long as the owner or CP doesn't catch you cooking the brakes as you taxi slowly running the engine(s) up to 2000RPM....

[Pinky the pilot]

I was taught that if there is a run up bay on a good sealed surface then for the first flight of the day that is where you do run ups. If not available then they are done 'on the run'.
For the remaining flights of the day 'one the run' was SOP, and woe betide any pilot who did any runups stationary on a non sealed surface.
I remember the above being especially enforced when I was with DZ and Simbu in PNG.

You only live twice. Once when
you're born. Once when
you've looked death in the face.

[Horatio Leafblower]

404,

just to remove the variables you raise from this particular argument ;)

While there is no runup bay at this airport there is an adequate apron area free of loose stones. The points you raise about props etc are valid but in 10 years of operating at this airport - yes me too as Chief Pilot of a CHTR org - in twins and other types, some with wooden props, I have not had prop damage issues.

Similarly, the AG operator is very professional with radio procedures and while he doesn't fly 747 circuits he has on each occasion given more than enough time to backtrack, line up, maybe quickly check DI/HSI alignment and roll.

I just don't understand. Is this protracted procedure an operational requirement for an Aerocommander?

[404 Titan]

In the 14 years I spent in GA I never saw brake temperatures being a problem from doing run ups on the move. If it was the manufacturers would prohibit it in their POH’s. They get no hotter than they would after land and having to apply them to stop. This isn’t to say you shouldn’t consider how long you are using them for. Pro-longed run ups on the move should be avoided at all cost, just as much as taxiing in long grass should be avoided after landing.

Horatio Leafblower

I have a photo around of two C404 props that were destroyed by loose stones on a sealed apron because the pilot elected to do his run ups at the holding point in complete violation of SOP’s. I have seen more damage done to aircraft in my time due to static run ups than anything else. Lateral thinking is needed here, not following something blindly because that is the way I was taught.

[triadic]

So long as good airmanship is displayed, doing the run-ups on the go is and should be the norm.

In large twins such as the 404 etc the first flight of the day should be done prior to pax boarding and in a suitable location. After that on the run should be more than acceptable.

An old operator that I did some work for once upon a time told me that brake pads were cheaper than engine mounts and for that reason the bit single that he operated should be operated at a high (and smooth) idle during taxi, even if that means using the brakes to keep the speed under control. Same applies to run ups on the run.

There is no excuse for entering the runway when not ready and making someone go around.

[Ibex]

Well the best place for runups is on the takeoff roll, quick flick of the mags and props as you apply full power for the first flight of the day. Any noticeable problems just abort the takeoff! That was always the way I operated the 404.

[Capt Fathom]

I have a photo around of two C404 props that were destroyed by loose stones on a sealed apron because the pilot elected to do his run ups at the holding point in complete violation of SOP’s. I'd be having a quiet chat to the airport operator if this was the case!

[404 Titan]

I believe our insurance company made a claim to the relevant council who owned the strip. I was surprised though that after forking out $50K + nothing was done about this strip.

[Onan the Clumsy]

but provided theres no other traffic at the time I don't see any problem with runups on the rwy. Used to do it at my last operator all the time in both singles and twins Personal choice, but I don't like sitting on the runway. I don't like "into position and hold" as I feel very exposed. A little like standing in the middle of an empty road.

Not saying you're wrong, just that I don't like it.

[GAYouth111]

Is it standard procedure to do run-ups before every flight?

I used to fly of a light twin, six sectors a day, four days a week along side another twin/single (depending on the weather). Two of these sectors were very early in the morning and the other four were in the evening.

In the morning, it was common practice to backtrack on the runway and carry out the run-ups either on the backtrack (but only after the engines had been given sufficient time to warm up) or once we had lined up. For the second sector of the morning we would not do any run-ups just the pre-takeoffs and line-ups.

For the evening run, the run-ups were carried out prior to the loading of the pax and freight. We would then complete the remaining four sectors without any run-ups.

I logged some 1200 hours and 2 1/2 years on this operation and never once got told to do it differently. Was I doing it wrong the whole time?

[Utradar]

It's not usually standard to run up an engine before every flight.
Up north, we used to complete runups before pax boarding on the first flight of the day stationary and on a sealed surface and we then did subsequent mag checks just after applying power on takeoff to ensure not fouled.

Just a couple of points, usually common sense prevails.

Where the surface is sealed, we used to do runups with the aircraft stationary, noting the clear area behind. We have never had any prop nick problems doing it this way. This allows 100% concentration on runups rather than the problem occuring of running off the runway or overrunning the end during a backtrack. With single engine a/c you can get away with runups on the run as there is no assymetric problems to worry about and the shorter time taken to complete.
Another thought, what happens to brake effectiveness as they heat up. I'm sure brake pads build up heat when trying to hold back 600 horses at 2200rpm (moving aircraft). What happens if a rejected takeoff be required?
On a non sealed aerodrome though, discression is of course necessary.

[ITCZ]

I noticed a difference when I moved from 'down south' to the Top End.

In the Top End, run-ups for the first flight of the day is something you do before you loaded pax and freight.

Partly because it is bloody hot and their was only three piston engined charter planes in the whole top end that had airconditioners (!) and secondly, it removed the temptation to say 'ahh, bugger it' if you actually found something wrong during the run up with pax on board.

The big problem with the argument we are having here though, is not which is the best single way to do things.

The problem is that too many pilots are just doing what they were taught, shown by someone who was just doing what THEY were taught!

Most of the suggestions above are the best answer, in a certain situation.

F'rinstance, mates who did dingo baiting in C206's out at Halls Creek used to do their runups rolling up and down the strip first thing in the morning. There was no hardstand, no stone free area, just lots of red gravel. There were also no aggies, and very few no-radio itinerants arriving at 7am!

Transfer the situation to Ngukurr, a sealed strip with half a hectare of asphalt as a parking area, with Kingairs and C402s arriving at all times of the day and night -- there was no reason to do runups on the runway. Arrive there to find someone doing runups on the threshold in their Chieftain and you come to the conclusion that they are either too dumb to realise it isn't necessary or too lazy to sweep the area under their props on the hardstand. By the way, how the hell are ya, H.E?

A third situation might be a gravel parking area with a sealed runway. Well, provided it is not a busy area or time of day, the threshold is the one place that can be relied on to have had all the loose stones blown away. But why not put yourself on said threshold at an angle perhaps into wind (!) that allows you to keep an eye on downwind, base and final, just in case?

Use your head! Prioritize!
(1) don't put yourself in the path of a landing aircraft
(2) don't inconvenience an inbound aircraft, broadcast, listen, and vacate if necessary,
(3) then start thinking about taking care of your prop, etc.

[Super Cecil]

Impulse used to be bad for sitting on the runway for up to 5 minutes, they also used to call downwind 15 miles out. Bad airmanship is not good for aviation.

You never see Dash 8's sitting on the end of a runway doing checks, they turn around and roll. You never hear Dash 8 blokes wingeing about an AG machine doing a legal low level circuit. I'd rather see the Aircraft in the circuit than the approaching Aircraft fly 5 miles out call downwind then not turn on to final for 5 minutes.

It's all a matter of working in with others, if your going to be in the road then stretch a bit and let others in. If your flying a 5 mile circuit don't get too upset if somebody cuts inside you and is on the ground and shut down by the time you turn onto final.

The last thing somebody who has just done 10 hours for the day wants is some clown backtracking at a walking pace then sitting on the runway doing runups. It's good for you blokes who need hours to prolong every minute in the Aircraft so you can log that extra .1, professionals who consider other aviators don't.:8

[3RAR]

I cant say that I have any problem with anything said here. It seems that I am in the midst of some practical thinking people that apply common sense to operating different types of A/C. Just allow me to throw a spanner in the works, just for a sec.

I grew up around c180's, 182's and 185 operators, mostly in the ag industry. Some of the operators were private operators in 182's flying for business reasons. I was brought up to get a clip under the ear every time I allowed the elevator to drop 1/4 inch from full back whenever on the ground, and rightly so. Operating costs reduced by such a simple method of operation, why the hell would you not do it. It really erks me to see supposed instructors, mostly at GAAP ad's considering them selves above such menial habits that make a good pilot. "Just get em past the test"

Enough qualifying.

I was a fairly low time pilot on a long trip over two weeks. Departing early one morning with a deadline for the day, I followed the same principals as I would for any A/C. No other traffic around, runnups on the runway after waiting for Cyl Hd Temp in the idle position. Both engines in the runup speed and through the checks, then both engines back to idle for the rest of the taxi. Just then I lost all back pressure on the LHS. Odd but still in control I heard a passenger say, "Hey the wheel is on fire".


Immediate action; Shut down and evacuate. Extinguish fire.

Pondering what to do, we pushed the AC off the RW. Being MBZ my luck would not hold out with having the AP to my self for too long. After some time I taxied back to the apron and PX walked happily behind. On inspection, the Break calliper piston had actually popped out of position and allowed the hyd. oil to flow over the hot disk and catch fire. The oil also set fire to the tyre so it was then US. I spent the next days going over the incident in my head. I didn't feel that I was excessive on the breaks with regard to pressure or time. Perhaps other would argue, but I did the checks as fast as possible because break pad wear was also an important consideration in my upbringing.

Now in hind sight, is see the incident as tuition. I was lucky for several reasons. Had I been alone the wheel would have burnt away after TO with me none the wiser until it blew out. Had I been in a low wing, no one would have noticed the problem but me (I hope I would have aborted the TO when breaks were lost, I think I would have but, I was very low time when this happened, I will never know). And had I not aborted, or not noticed the full effect on the break peddle. lastly, if it were a retractable AC, I well may have put a burning wheel assembly away after TO.

Now days, it is runnups in the bay, or one at a time on the move for the first flight. I know they say it is hard on the nose wheel but I would rather it collapse in the absolute worst case, than find a wing on fire just near the fuel tanks in flight. Subsequent flights, it is easy enough to do a mag check at idle. If they work they work. If they are fowled then abort the TO. If the csu is us on one of the subsequent flight I don't feel that it is life threatening to come back and land when you find out at 500".

I still don't have a lot of hours and I would love to hear from some of you CP's ex CP's and very experienced people what you think about the reasons for my procedures at this time.

OBJ.

[VH-Cheer Up]

IMO entering an active runway without being prepared for an immediate takeoff is not only bad airmanship, it's rude to others in the circuit.

Even in small airfields you can find someplace safe to perform run-ups and final checks.

That's why it's called a runway, not a runupway.


VHCU

[3RAR]

I take it then you are all for static run ups? Most of the other contributions in this thread seem to disagree. I see no problem with run ups while back tracking and many I know agree.

There is no delay to other AC. There is also no prop damage.

If you believe there is always a clear place to do runups at every strip, then you just go on teaching that at what ever academic institution you are lecturing at.

Reguards TMX.

[bushy]

When brake pads wear too much you often get leakeage of hydraulic fluid. Look for dripping brakes on tour preflight.

[Super Cecil]

Worn pads usually just mean brakes not much chop, worn discs can give you crap brakes as well as pistons coming out too far allowing leakage.

Nothing wrong with doing runup's backtracking, gives the oil a bit more time to warm on those frosty mornings.