Air cadet instructors with civil licence

[642vgs]

Its always nice to get a confirmation regarding questions about licencing from someone who has first hand experience so here is my contribution.

I am a 'C' category Civilian Instructor with 642 VGS at Linton on Ouse. I have a UK PPL and a JAR CPL and was very keen for the hours flown with the ATC to count towards the revalidation of these civil licences.

I sent off my Licence and log book to the CAA with a cheque for £100 (don't get me started on that!) and a covering letter that read as follows:


Dear Sir/Madam

Addition of TMG rating to professional licence

Please find enclosed a cheque for £100 as per the scheme of charges on your web site, for the inclusion of a TMG rating on my commercial licence.

For clarification, note that the following requirements have been met:

Number of hours (TMG) flown is in excess of the minimum requirement of 70.

The aircraft flown was the military VIGILANT, not the Grob 109.

All logged hours are under powered flight as per Air Cadet Ops procedures.

I wish to add this rating to my licence in order that the hours flown will count towards my annual flying requirement. If there are any issues requiring further clarification, please contact me at the above E-mail address.

Enclosed: Log book, CPL No *****, Cheque £100, Current certificate of experience for Single engine piston aircraft.

Yours .....


I have just received my CPL back with TMG validation and had a verbal confirmation on the telephone that all hours flown on the Vigilant count towards my annual requirement.

So there you go.... Hope this may be of interest to some one.

Fly safe.

[BEagle]

Quite correct - the requirements to add a TMG Rating to a Pilot's Licence are spelled out quite clearly in LASORS 2005. If you then have both SEP and TMG Class Ratings on a Pilot's Licence, hours on either count towards re-validation of both Ratings as stated in LASORS 2005.

But hardly anyone seems to know that!

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Excellent. They counted all my Vigilant hours towards issue of a BCPL/CPL/Unfreezing ATPL and heavily discounted my FI course hours requirement on the strength of a C Cat rating. So they can be generous when they want to.

WWW

[Jinkster]

I have about 6hours in a Vigilant from air cadet days and the CAA didnt mind me adding the hours when I applied for my PPL.

Jinkster

[buster172]

I have been told I can use a maximum of 30 hours toward my CPL from the Vigilant. It would have been fantastic to use all the hours toward it but keeping my PPL ticking over is great.

C Cat is later this year so fingers crossed it helps with the FI rating like in WWW's case.

Best regards,

Buster

[642vgs]

Blimey

I didn't realise that so many of the esteemed ppruners had gone down the ATC route. What good company I keep!

I personnaly can't believe my good fortune that I got involved with the organisation and every weekend I am paid (petrol money) to drive to an RAF base and fly the queens aeroplanes for free.

FANTASTIC.

[ILLUC IVI ILLUD FECI]

Should anyone wish to find out more about this free flying in aid of a good cause (ie teaching Air Cadets to fly) have a read through

http://www.aircadets.org/civilian%20gliding%20instructor.htm

or call HQ Air Cadets on 01400 261 201 Ext 7612

They are currently in the middle of a recruiting drive!

[cavortingcheetah]

:) What Ho, not paid and not sent to a plunder zone. Where's the fun:confused:

[acw350]

Hi all fellow viggie drivers how are you all doing. I have had a long hard struggle with the CAA and know of quite a few others in simlar positions across our fleet. I am a B Cat (shortly to expire) as i am on my last module of ground school for the ATPL an currently no time for weekend fun :(.

I got good dispensation for my PPL like many others but like many of us when we approach the subject of the CPL hours we get 30 hours max. Which aint so good. I have been asking lots of questions along with several others from other schools regarding the Vig when it was pre jar a SEP and now because there is no vigilant on the civil register the nearest thing to it is a Grob 109b. So we only get 30 hours TMG credit towards the hours for a CPL. I was glad to see that when i have finally gained my cpl i can keep it current using tmg as like the ppl using tmg to remain current.

Its just a pity we will get no backing from top brass to get the Vig on the civil register as a SEP.

So anyway after my exmas im off to USA to waste money on hour building which is pointless really with 750 hours on the VIG in my log book.

Regards

ACW 350

[BEagle]

The Vigilant would need to be submitted for formal categorisation under JARs for it to be re-classified as a SEP Class aeroplane. There is no benefit to the operators of the a/c in going through that process; hence it remains a TMG Class aeroplane.

[blagger]

At the risk of being disloyal (as a current Vig A2), I think the Vig should never be a SEP. It doesn't have flaps, no double ignition system, no real fuel management to do and doesn't even have a DI! When you look at the kind of flying that we do (i.e. all local area, no real navs/landaways, little RT, no powered approaches etc..) I would be surprised if the CAA ever let more hours count towards a CPL. I fly SEP as well, and I would bet anybody would struggle to get to CPL standard in a SEP without a good grounding and some decent SEP hours post PPL issue.

[youngskywalker]

Can i ask a silly question? What does TMG stand for? :O

P.S VGS flying great fun, I used to be instructor on the viking. None of that counted towards my cpl funnily enough! ;)

[BEagle]

TMG = Touring Motor Glider.

[Onan the Clumsy]

I was going to ask as well.

So SEP=Single Engine erm... something begining with P? :(

[BEagle]

SEP = Single Engine Piston (JAR-FCL term)

SSEA = Simple Single Engined Aeroplane (NPPL term)

SLMG = Self Launching Motor Glider (NPPL term)

There is NO SUCH THING as a 'Group A' aeroplane any more - and hasn't been for over 5 years. Unfortunately some unprofessional organisations still persist in using the term though.

[Onan the Clumsy]

Ok thx. I thought of P being Power, but that would be redundant (again).

Almost all my flying has been stateside, where we have:

SEL - Single Engine Land
SES - Single Engine Sea
MEL - Multi Engine Land
MES - I suppose there are a few

I have to admit I don't know what they use for gliders, rotorcraft, lighter than air and I'm not even sure what "Lifting Bodies" are.

[PhilM]

WWW etc;

As a Civilian Instructor on an ATC unit (Bris & Glos wing ;)), I am wondering how does one go about volenteering for Staff duties at a VGS?

I missed out on doing my GS as a cadet due to an admin cockup and the paperwork never got sent off before my time was up.

Ive since left as a cadet, gone to uni and am a CI on the squadron.

Can CI's do a GS and then go on to instruct?

My squadrons local VGS is 625 at Hullavington. Though I live about a mile from St Athan (for uni), which has a Vigilant VGS i believe.

Anyone know much about this?

[Genghis the Engineer]

There is NO SUCH THING as a 'Group A' aeroplane any more - and hasn't been for over 5 years. Unfortunately some unprofessional organisations still persist in using the term though.
Oh for crying out loud Beagle, will you stop. Nobody used the term group A, but yet again you choose to bang on about it for no good reason.

And to describe people or organisations who happen to use a particular shorthand term instead of this week's preferred jargon (I assume you refer to organisations like BMAA and PFA, where I know it's commonly used) to describe powered light aviation as "unprofessional" for that reason is petty and, put bluntly, incorrect.

If you want to call people like Francis Donaldson, Guy Gratton, Graham Newby or Chris Finnigan (all of whom I've heard use the term) unprofessional, do it to their face and justify yourself, don't make snide comments from behind a semi-anonymous identity on Pprune - you are bigger and more professional than that.

G

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

PhilM - just write a letter to the CO of the St Athan VGS expressing your desire to become involved and your background.

You'll very likely get asked along on a trial basis to make sure you are not a knob and as long as you have no problems with washing aircraft, a bit of sweeping and a lot of tea making you'll be in within 6 months.

My experience with the CAA was just before JAR implementation back in 1999. They then took a rather more pragmatic view of things and counted all my Vigilant time as Group A (as was :) ) and told my FIC course provider to give me just as much tuition as they thought necessary before sending me for test.

To be honest the high CFS checked standards of the Vigilant world couple to holding a PPL for 5 years was enough to make the CPL and FI modules a combine 5 week doddle.

But it probably ain't under JARs any more!

Cheers

WWW

[BEagle]

Geng' the Eng', well, I work with some of those folk and we normally manage to use the correct terminology. Others, however, simply cannot or do not wish to use correct terms. My explanation of SEP, SSEA and SLMG was to clarify matters - hence I took the opportunity to remind everyone that, despite some dozy dinosaurs who still persist in using wrong terminology, there is no such thing as 'Group A' anymore.

I was not a great fan of the Eurocracy of JARs; however, we're stuck with it and people need to use the correct terminology to avoid error.

Just as in engineering.....

[Genghis the Engineer]

I recall getting several questions wrong on some JAR technical paper because I didn't have the approved terminology on how a particular type of gyro worked. Since I have studied and tested the things quite a lot, and left to my own devices for a few days could design and probably build one - I found this quite irritating. So, when I discussed it with him, did the examiner who was quite happy with my explanations.

Correct terminology is virtually impossible to achieve in Engineering - every country and discipline has it's own slant on it. For example nobody but aeronautical engineers distinguish between "static" and "dynamic" stabilities; whilst helicopter aerodynamicists in the UK and US define aerodynamic coefficients differently (we divide by ½_Rho_V², whilst the yanks just divide by Rho_V²); the UK and US again routinely define all the co-ordinate systems differently for aircraft motion... the list is endless.

Similarly, I have a UK licence that says "Aeroplanes", a JAA licence that says "SEP", an FAA licence that says "SEL", they are all correct within their context - which is individual nations PILOT licencing rules only.

So, it's important when using terminology in any context to be self-consistent, and where necessary explain it - but to accuse somebody of being "unprofessional" or a "dozy dinosaur" because they find last years, or a different organisations terminology more convenient or appropriate isn't on. "SEP" is a pilot licencing definition only; in my own line of work we split fixed wing aircraft between "SLA/Microlight", "VLA", "part 23", "part 22" and "part 25", those are legally defined terms within JAR-1 - but I personally find it convenient to group "VLA" and "part 23" as "group A", and everybody knows what I mean - they are totally separate to the pilot's licencing definitions.

After all, we are not flying Bombardier Chipmunks, and I've never been to an airshow to watch a BAE Systems Spitfire!

G

[642vgs]

WWW

I was interested to read your experiences of gaining your CPL and FI with your ATC background. As I mentioned in the original post I already have my CPL and I am now considering the FI rating.

I have been with the VGS unit for about 3 years but have been a C cat for less than a year so I dont have a huge amount of instuctional hours.

I appreciate that your experience was under the CAA but is there any kind of dispensation granted from the FI course (perhaps in terms of minimum course hours or specific sections ommited) as a result of the C cat qualification?

I understand from LASORS that as a B cat one could 'claim' an FI(R) outright.

Thanks.

[BEagle]

The LASORS accreditation for military instructors is for CFS trained QFIs only, not for gliding instructors.

As far as I am aware, there is no credit whatsover for ATC gliding instructors towards JAR-FCL FI Ratings.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Things were different in them days, see.

1999 that is. Before all this JAR nonsense was invented. When a chap with hundreds of hours teaching 16 yr olds to fly a highly unwieldly 46ft wide tailwheel aircraft with more oomph and weight than a C150 - could quite reasonably be exempted from being taught to suck eggs in some rusty spamcan at little piddlington in the marsh by some sad looser of a FI(I) who for some mysterious reason decided never to take his career into the airlines and preferred to instead "specialise" in 'proper flying not button pushing' etc. etc.

Hark at me. Barely out of short trousers and already harking back to the good old days when I was a lad!

:)

WWW

[ACW996]

Not quite true, the A2 qualification is awarded by CFS, and there is a dispenstation for A2 instructors.

[blagger]

Intrigued by the last comment - I know the A2 is awarded by CFS as I have one , but has anyone actually got any kind of dispensation from FI ratings with a Vigilant A2?

I think the difference is that in the VGS world we are all QGI's and not QFI's. Some kind of hours allowance off the FI course would be nice, but I would think that is the best we could hope for.

[G-MANN]

I completed my AGT2 on the Vigilant in 1997 and gained a total of 18hrs.

Since then I have flown c150/pa28 put with friends so obviously no time has been logged in those however i think I would only need the minimum hours required for a pass in the GST.

1) Do you think the caa will allow me to credit these hrs towards a ppl bearing in mind they were logged in 1997?

2) If anyone here flies at 635vgs Salmersbury can you pm me please?

Thanks

G-MANN

[BEagle]

You may receive credit for 10% of any P1 time in gliders up to a maximum of 10 hours' credit.

Unless flown with authorised Flight Instructors as part of a JAR-FCL course at an approved RF/FTO, your SEP time with your friends will receive no credit whatsoever.

[Human Factor]

Ok, similar question in reverse. I (just about) have a FI(R) rating and have been invited by the local VGS to go along and chat to them about instructing there.

If they want me, I'll do it anyway but will hours instructing on a Vigilant count towards derestricting the FI(R)?

[BEagle]

HF, you would need to hold a TMG Class Rating in order to exercise the privileges of your FI(R) Rating on TMG Class aircraft such as the Vigilant under JAR-FCL 1. Only those instructional flights supervised by a nominated JAR-FCL FI at a RF/FTO would count - and as far as I understand it, they would have to be flights conducted towards the JAR-FCL PPL(A) with TMG Class Rating....

Alternatively you might try adding a MGIR to your licence - see LASORS H9.

[Human Factor]

Thanks BEagle, will look into it.

[642vgs]

Just as a short footnote to this thread, I went to the London Flyer exhibition this month and managed to speak to one of the staff at the CAA stand.

As this thread established the hours flown will keep my civil licences current but I asked about the revalidation of the licence with regard to the check flight requirement and who can sign the revalidation sheet.

Basically the 3 monthly checks that we have in the ATC count as the flight with an instructor requirement. All you have to do then is produce the logbook and licence to any authorised (CAA) examiner to get the signature.

[J.A.F.O.]

Simple question from a simple soul who finds LASORS confusing:

If I had an NPPL with SSEA and SLMG ratings would time in the SLMG count towards re-validation of SSEA and vice versa?

Thanks in advance.

[BEagle]

Not at the moment.

We have asked the CAA for another NPPL Policy and Steering Committee meeting and this is one subject which will be raised YET AGAIN!!

[J.A.F.O.]

Thanks Beags - Keep asking, if it'll help I can send the boys round.

All you ATC types - do any of you have lying around anything to do with the Venture? Pilot's notes, checklists, notes, training syllabus, anything at all? If so and you'd be happy to part with it, either out of pity or for a small donation to either the PPrune fund or your chosen charity, send me a PM or an email.

Thanks.