Night Rating

[My names Turkish]

I put this in this forum rather than the Student Pilot section as I was hoping on more fctual information here.

I Have an FAA PPL/IR, and a JAA PPL. I have passed the CPL and IR flight tests but have not sent in the paperwork. I ma now in the process of doing so, but the problem I am having is working out the night rating. Because I did the FAA PPL first I have done and did plenty of night flying. I did no formal JAA night rating as such, but I did the night flying at a US based JAA approved school.

This is what the Lasors says:

E4 THE NIGHT QUALIFICATION (AEROPLANE)
This section offers information as a basic guide to obtaining a JAR-FCL Night Qualification (Aeroplane)
Rating as follows:-
E4.1 NIGHT QUALIFICATION (AEROPLANE)
GENERAL INFORMATION
Training for the Night Qualification must be in
accordance with JAR-FCL 1. Training may be
undertaken in a non-JAA state provided that the
organisation is fully approved in accordance with
JAR-FCL 1 by the UK Civil Aviation Authority.
Training for the Night Qualification (Aeroplanes) may
be completed during the training for a JAR-FCL
PPL(A).
Privileges
Details of rating privileges can be found in Schedule 8
of the Air Navigation Order (please refer to Section A,
Appendix F).
E4.2 NIGHT QUALIFICATION (AEROPLANE)
FLYING TRAINING/EXPERIENCE
REQUIREMENTS
When applying for a Night Qualification you must
produce evidence of having met the following flying
requirements:-
a. 5 hours overall night training in aeroplanes to
include (b) and (c),
b. (i) 3 hours dual night training to include (ii);
(ii) 1 hour dual night navigation;
c. 5 Take-off and full stop landings at night as PIC of
aeroplanes.
Validity
The holder of a licence that does not include a valid
instrument rating (aeroplane) shall not act as
pilot-in-command of an aeroplane carrying passengers
at night unless, during the previous 90 days, at least
one take-off and landing has been completed at night.
E4.3 TRANSFERRING NIGHT RATINGS/
QUALIFICATIONS (AEROPLANE)
FROM NON-JAR-FCL LICENCES
Any previous night flying training completed in an ICAO
Contracting State may be credited towards the
JAR-FCL Night Qualification (Aeroplane) flying training
requirements.
Where an applicant holds a night rating/qualification (or
a logbook entry if that is the method of endorsement
required by the National Aviation Authority) issued by
an ICAO Contracting State, they may apply for the
Night Qualification (Aeroplane) endorsement onto their
UK or JAR-FCL licence providing the requirements of
E4.2 have been met. Logbook evidence of the night
flying training completed will be required together with
evidence of licence/logbook endorsement.
Where an applicant has completed night training
towards a night rating/qualification in an ICAO
Contracting State and has met the requirements of
E4.2 but do not hold any licence/logbook endorsement
from the National Aviation Authority, they will be
required to complete discretional night training with a
JAA Registered Facility or Approved FTO.
Where an applicant has only completed partial night
flying training towards a night rating/qualification in an
ICAO Contracting State but does not meet the
requirements of E4.2, they will be required to complete
sufficient training with a JAA Registered Facility or
Approved FTO and meet the minimum requirements.
Qualified Service Pilots (QSP)
For the issue of a night qualification (aeroplanes), a
QSP who is qualified on aeroplanes is required to
submit logbook evidence that he meets the experience
requirements as per the full night rating syllabus.
A QSP on helicopters is required to complete the full
night qualification syllabus on aeroplanes - night flying
in helicopters may not be counted towards the
experience requirements.
E4.1 Night Qualification (Aeroplane) General Information
E4.2 Night Qualification (Aeroplane) Flying Training/Experience Requirements
E4.3 Transferring Night Ratings/Qualifications (Aeroplane) From Non-JAR-FCL Licence
LAS SECTION E

This is the night rating Form:

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/FORSRG1126.PDF

My Questions are this:

1. On the Basis of my FAA PPL, which has in essence a "built in" Night rating. Can I just fill the form out and send it in.

2. May my instructor an FAA only licenced instructor sign it, or does it have to go back to the School.

3. My logbook does not have any endorsements for night flying, will the CAA look for those.

Thanks in advance.

[thereceiver2004]

this is a tricky one and please do not take what i say as gospel

firstly are you applying for a UK (JAA) issued CPL/IR ?

if you are, i stand corrected, BUT one of the pre-requisites for the IR is a night rating, a JAA issued rating not an ICAO rating. You will need to investigate whether or not the IR training and indeed IR flight test can be completed without this rating having been endorsed by the campaign, i am unsure. I suggest you return to your school you did the IR and find out.

LASORS says all applicants must hold a PPL(A) endorsed with a night rating or a CPL(A) and a flight radiotelephony operators licence.

i know for my IR i HAD to have a night rating before starting the course, despite having a JAA CPL and FI rating.

check it out, might save you the pain of the campaign returning your licence.

i am away from base just now so can't do anymore

be interested to know
TR

[My names Turkish]

Right this is where it gets interesting.

I have passed and completed a UK JAA CPL.

I have passed and completed a Spanish JAA IR.

I Have a UK RT licence issued.

As the Uk is the only one that bothers with this stoopid night rating, the Spanish authorities had no interest in a night rating, and let me do my IR.

I don't really want or need the rating, it is my understanding that I needed it before CPL issue?

So where does this leave me? I want to make sure all the I's are dotted and the T's crossed before sending them into that lot in Gatwick rather than have it all spat back at me.

[thereceiver2004]

i cannot say as i am unsure but try calling gatwick tomorrow morning and asking them.. do not want to give the wrong idea to you... seeing as it a Spanish IR (JAA) should not make any difference... who knows, please post the answer you get as i would be interested to here
TR

[Whopity]

JAR-FCL 1.165 (b)

The applicant shall have completed at least 5 hours flight time in aerplanes at night comprising at least 3 hours of dual instruction, including at least 1 hour of cross country navigation, and 5 solo take offs and 5 full stop landings.

If you have that then it needs to be endorsed in your log book or licence. If its not endorsed get it endorsed before you apply for the CPL.

[My names Turkish]

Whopity, thats what I would make of it. I am not sure it is an FAA requirement though, does anyone know for certain? The Lasors confuse me with the "evidence of licence/logbook endorsement" The Licence is the evidence of the permit to fly at night, are they just covering for all angles by saying endorsement too?

Whopity, if this was the case and I had the endorsement, how do I fill the form? Do i need the instructor to sign this too? Can he do that being FAA licenced only?

[DFC]

Since you did not hold a night qualification at the start of the CPL modular training then as far as I am aware JAR-FCL requires that the CPL flight training include 5 hours night training.

Thus I believe that you need to show having completed this training for the CPL application. Perhaps the school at which you trained in the US would certify that the night training they completed was in accordance with their CAA approval and complied with JAR-FCL. If you can do that but the PPL night training was completed some time ago, you may be required to repeat the 5 solo take-off and landings again - no problem if you are already night current!

PS every JAA country requires the night training for CPL issue unless you already hold a PPL with night qualification so the CAA are not any different.

Regards,

DFC

[Whopity]

Turkish,

If you have a licence that shows the night rating/qualification there is no problem. As not all States show it on the licence then the logbook endorsement is required as proof that you have received the training. Overseas FTOs should check these items when you train with them, it should all be listed in their Training Manual! Any signatures should come from the Head of Training or his nominated representitive.