Turbo prop job with Jet time

[Meeb]

Just wondering if having jet time would be a hinderance to someone wanting to move back to Turbo Props?

I know here in the UK its no big deal, but whats the situation in Australia with this scenario? Best not to mention it or would it be an asset?

:confused:

[DeltaSix]

Meeb,

Our Chief Pilot was a C&T captain for the B777 when he moved back to turbo-props..... I would be very surprised if they look at it as a hindrance........ I guess it depends on the company.

But, I'll let the others speak for their companies.


DeltaSix

[redsnail]

Hey Meeb, you wanna go back to the MOB? :E Mad!!!

[Like This - Do That]

Meeb, sorry this doesn't really answer your query, but .....

A mate who lost his job when British World went t1ts up in 2001 landed a Super King Air spot in Scotland not long after. He thought that the UK turboprop operators weren't picking up jet pilots as it was thought they'd be straight out the door as soon as 737 LCCs started recruiting....

Perhaps it's changed in the 3 years since....

[Meeb]

Reddo... no way... :{

I would like to sound out the situation in Australia, like I said I know the situation in the UK.

In Oz, would someone with a 737 rating be knocked back for a Metro job... :confused:

PS Thanks for the replies so far... any more...?

[Metro man]

As there are too many pilots here, getting a turboprop job in Oz is the equivalent of getting a jet job overseas in terms of qualifications and experience required. Though not in salary paid :{

[DeltaSix]

Metro Man, I agree.......... why on earth as we so disadvantaged here ? :{

D6

[MOR]

Oh no not another Scottish immigrant... ;)

Bloody foreigners taking Aussie jobs... shouldn't be allowed... etc etc etc...

[NoseGear]

MOR, a phrase springs to mind, people in glass houses etc etc etc;) :E

Nosey

[MOR]

Ah but I'm not... passport proves it...:}

Besides I have no intention of setting foot in Ozmateland... :p

[NoseGear]

MOR, could not find the "tongue in cheek" smilie, enjoy the Deep South.:p

Nosey

[MOR]

Thought as much.

Wilco.

:D

[turbinejunkie]

Gidday Meeb,

not sure why you would want to go from 737 to turboprop (why anyone would for that matter! :p) but I would think you would be most welcome if you could demonstrate your willingness to do the job.

I know my company has taken at least one heavy jet qualified pilot. That person is now flying with a Queensland Regional and was not with the company very long - that may affect your employment chances somewhat possibly, but as far as having jet experience, I think that would be a big plus.

Cheers,

TJ:ok:

[ROKAPE]

Huh?
There are plenty of blokes / sheilas you have contributed to the Australian aviation industry by doing their training here in Australia, are residents and paying taxes. The same pilots are now currently sweating their rings out in Maningrida flying a 30 year old C206 for a shot at a metro R/H seat and we are inviting our good Scottish colleague to come on down with his jet time? :hmm:

[redsnail]

Our Scottish friend used to work in Australia teaching said pilots how to fly. He's got right of abode in Australia so he has every right to a position in Australia.
He's never passed judgement on Aussies flying in the UK.

[MOR]

... of which there are large numbers.

Send all the Ozmate immigrants home, and then see how long it takes you to get that job flying the 30-year-old 206! :rolleyes:

[Capt Snooze]

And if you send home all the Poms, Kiwis and assorted others, there'd probably be enough jobs for the Ozmates to come home to .............................

Sheesh!!!!!!!!!!!!

The foreign pilots in Oz are working legally, as are the Ozmates in Europe and other places. If the locals on either side of the fence have a beef about it, talk to your elected representatives and get the immigration laws in your respective countries changed!

Until then it's simply bs.


Snooze
(My apologies to the Kiwis, who haven't yet bought into this one)

[ITCZ]

Getting back to the original question...

Speaking to a couple of fellas who have returned to jet flying after a couple of years or more in GA, there is a common thread.

When these guys were looking for jobs and were happy to accept any regular flying, potential employers were wary of the possibility that these possessor's of the magic 'jet time' would be off at the first opportunity.

Or perceived to no longer be interested in 'doing what needs to be done' to get the job done :rolleyes:

This made it frustrating for the fellows concerned, most of whom thought the next jet opportunity would be a long time away, perhaps never, and just wanted a job flying aeroplanes, please!

Classic situation in oz GA. You NEVER have the right experience matrix! "Not enough total time/No twin time/Too much single engine time/No instructional experience/Too much instructional experience....

It is more of a comment on the poor quality of management in oz GA. Most aviation 'businesspeople' in oz GA would have a hard time holding similar positions in other businesses, imho.

Anyone considering joining our good selves in australian aviation should be ready to deal with self important dunderheads that have a variety of implicit theories on what makes a good pilot employee, none of them founded on anything more than bar talk, jealousy, and basic prejudice! Just remember to smile politely at the interview :)

[ROKAPE]

"Our Scottish friend used to work in Australia teaching said pilots how to fly. He's got right of abode in Australia so he has every right to a position in Australia.
He's never passed judgement on Aussies flying in the UK."

Well maybe he should have? Then he might not be looking 'down under' for turboprop time.
Because he has right of abode, does he have "every right" to take a position from an Australian citizen? I don't think he should have.

He was "in Australia teaching said pilots how to fly", so?
If he was here doing it for charity then I applaud him.
When we have a skilled pilot shortage in Australia, then let's give our good Scottish colleague all the help in the world to get a job here. :ok:
Rather than trying to get your M.P. to change the immigration laws, let your manager/recruitment guru/chief pilot know that a local pilot would be better for that metro job!

[yowie]

:cool: ROKAPE
You have a biiiigg problem MUTTTE:}

[ROKAPE]

:cool: yowie...great to see your 'sweetbread' out and about

:E

[Flintstone]

ROKAPE.

Maybe if you stopped whinging you'd get on and not be so bitter.

I hold a CASA ATPL, flew in Australia for five years and may well come back again. If I decide to there's nothing you can do to stop me.

Know the funny part? When I came back to the UK everyone thought I was Australian and gave me a hard time for taking their jobs. Unlike when I arrived in Australia and was welcomed with open arms and friendly p!ss taking. Good job I never met you, eh?

I got on because I got stuck in and didn't complain, just like lots of other people there. But not everyone it would seem?

[ROKAPE]

Flintstone

That was a confusing little rant?

I'm not bitter about anything and I am 'getting on' in aviation.
I'm trying to promote Australians for Australian jobs, just like your fellow British pilots were when you returned to the UK.

With your attitude it's a very good thing you didn't meet me over here sir.

[redsnail]

Rokape,
Have another read of what Flinstone wrote.
He's English, came to Australia (legally) and got requalified (already had UK licenses) and got a job. He wrote that he was made welcome in Australia with open arms and a gentle piss take.

When he returned to the UK, he was rubbished because the poms thought he was Australian (remember, he's English...) and was ridiculed for trying to take a British pilots' job....

Also regarding your rant about foreigners coming down to Australia and "taking" a job from a local. Guess what? The rest of the world is chock full of Australians taking jobs from the locals. Actually, it's better described as "the more appropriately experienced" person getting the job. The top man in BA is Rod Eddington (about to leave though), he's Australian. The top man in easyJet is Ray Webster, he's a Kiwi.

The industry is global and getting more so every day.

[Meeb]

Thanks folks for making this thread lively... :p

Reddo, thanks for that, as the only contributor who actually knows me, your thoughts are as always most welcome, hope the new gig is going well... ;)

MOR, DeltaSix, Metro man, turbinejunkie, ITCZ, thanks guys for your reasoned unbiased input.

Now I turn to ROKAPE...

There are plenty of blokes / sheilas you have contributed to the Australian aviation industry by doing their training here in Australia, are residents and paying taxes

and:

He was "in Australia teaching said pilots how to fly", so?
If he was here doing it for charity then I applaud him.

I worked in Australia, paying taxes, and my position was directly resposible for providing local instructors with jobs... is that good enough for you? You do not need to applaud me though... no need for all that... :O

Well maybe he should have? Then he might not be looking 'down under' for turboprop time.

I am not looking 'down under' for turbo prop time, I was looking for a job, there is a difference!

Rather than trying to get your M.P. to change the immigration laws, let your manager/recruitment guru/chief pilot know that a local pilot would be better for that metro job!

Why? Only because he/she is an Australian? That is very dangerous talk for the future of your country! Just ask MOR why his previous employer recruited so many kiwis... yes, because they were most suitable for the job, nothing to do with nationality... your narrow mindednes is stagering!

As for Aussies getting a hard time in the UK, I have never seen it myself, and whilst I do not doubt Flintstones experience, I think it is very rare, and would certainly never happen in Scotland!

PS By the way ROKAPE, guess what nationality the first chief pilot of Qantas was? I will leave that one with you... mate! :p

[Flintstone]

ROKAPE

No matter how many times I read your post I can't help but hear a high-pitched whining noise in the background.

You sure you're not a pom?

[druglord]

He was "in Australia teaching said pilots how to fly", so?
If he was here doing it for charity then I applaud him.

I hope you wouldn't applaud him rokape. That's called working for free. Where I come from that's not too cool. In fact that could easily be the greatest cardinal sin of aviation. yes and if every national had to return to their respective countries I don't think you'd be flying a 206 in the next 10 years.

[ROKAPE]

redsnail

Re read my post. I am saying that like myself some British pilots promote local pilots for local jobs. (regardless of Flintstones perceived nationality)

Also regarding your rant about foreigners coming down to Australia and "taking" a job from a local. Guess what? The rest of the world is chock full of Australians taking jobs from the locals. Actually, it's better described as "the more appropriately experienced" person getting the job. The top man in BA is Rod Eddington (about to leave though), he's Australian. The top man in easyJet is Ray Webster, he's a Kiwi.

'Chock full of Australians', well that's the 'rest of the worlds' issue to resolve, may I suggest a trap similar to the Cane Toad Buster trap, they are very effective. The rest of the world 'chock full' of Australians.... In countries that have no GA, small military forces, inexperienced pilot body and where the occupation of professional pilot is not a career aspiration i.e. Hong Kong S.A.R. , PRoC, United Arab Emirates, Taiwan, Singapore etc. Then I guess it's every pilot nationality for themselves! Come one come all. I can see those countries being chock full of Australians, however which are the other countries to which you refer? U.K. , U.S.A. , Canada , N.Z. ,R.S.A.? Are they really 'chock full'? I stand corrected on this, as unlike yourself I am not an expat "taking jobs from the locals".


Flintstone

:zzz: Enjoying the English weather? No matter how many times I read your post I can't help but hear a high-pitched whining noise in the background.

You sure you're not a pom? You are right, some poms do make a "high-pitched whining noise".


Meeb

I worked in Australia, paying taxes, and my position was directly resposible for providing local instructors with jobs... is that good enough for you? You do not need to applaud me though... no need for all that...

OK you worked and lived in Australia ,gained experience and were payed a salary and I'm presuming enjoyed the country and our facilities. You should have been paying taxes. I'm sure an Australian in your said position would have also been 'directly responsible' for providing jobs. Now it seems you want to return to Australia and fill a turbo prop job the same instructors/students you 'directly' employed are going for.

I am not looking 'down under' for turbo prop time, I was looking for a job, there is a difference!


My apologies. However there are plenty of appropriately qualified local pilots looking for a turbo prop job .

I wrote

"Rather than trying to get your M.P. to change the immigration laws, let your manager/recruitment guru/chief pilot know that a local pilot would be better for that metro job!"

You replied


Why? Only because he/she is an Australian? That is very dangerous talk for the future of your country! Just ask MOR why his previous employer recruited so many kiwis... yes, because they were most suitable for the job, nothing to do with nationality... your narrow mindednes is stagering!

Yes because he/she is an Australian. In the majority of situations I would try to employ, from the 1000's available, a suitably qualified local pilot first. Very dangerous talk? As an Australian I think I can write my opinions regarding the industry in this country. Very dangerous talk? For who? Yourself and Flintstone? The Taliban? I think the future of Australia will be OK, brus. Although we are suffering a skilled worker shortage at the moment, but not for pilots. As I wrote When we have a skilled pilot shortage in Australia, then let's give our good Scottish colleague all the help in the world to get a job here.


druglord

No I don't advocate working for free. It was a 'tongue in cheek' remark to redsnail.

[Flintstone]

ROKAPE

Weather is weather. It varies the world over according to climatology, seasons, local influences and stuff. Why you should feel the need to bring it into this baffles me unless it's to infer that I'm somehow worse off for being here. If so, how curious.

Now where would I rather be? Scrubbing around the bush in pursuit of twin, turbine or just any old time (no thanks, been there done that)? Plotting and schemeing in an industry with some of the oldest GA aircraft in the world? Having to pay for a type rating or compete with the silvertails and pay to fly? Or do what I'm doing now? Take a guess, mate.

As for 'dangerous talk' none of it bothers me. I've dual nationality and can return to live and work in Australia any time I like. Truth is it's a shaky old business there and I like the aircraft, destinations and pay I have now. So what if it rains a bit? I just look at the exchange rate and watch my savings going into ANZ.

The point that there are many more Australians working overseas than there are foreigners working in Australia was well made. As long as the Australian expats remain just that those struggling to make their way up in Australian aviation will have less competition. Just imagine all those ex-Ansett/Emirates/Cathay/Singapore/easyJet pilots suddenly coming home.

PS. I'm well aware some poms whine (I made the point first) but so, it seems, do some Australians. Mention no names, follow my eyes ;)

[ROKAPE]

Flintstone

Point taken. I agree with you regarding the ex-Ansett/Emirates/Cathay/Singapore/easyJet pilots returning to Australia. However they are in countries that require their skills apart from easyjet (I presume). Incidentally, when ex-Ansett pilots were 'suddenly' on the job hunt again, bush bashers were still being employed by the airlines.
Australia does not/should not have a requirement for foreign turbo prop pilots. You have dual nationality, so you can pick and choose where you like to live, depending on the weather and the jobs available. Some Australians don't have that luxury, and as I have written, local pilots are the ones who should be considered first for that metro job. How many expat Aussies working in the UK have dual citizenship? Are they then really expats? Does this make you an expat Aussie or Brit? ;)

[MOR]

ROKAPE

You just don't get it, do you?

If the UK took the attitude that you are advocating, hundreds of Aussie pilots, currently employed in the UK instead of British pilots, would return home and effectively kill any chance of low-time Aussie pilots ever getting a job. There would be no new jobs in Oz for a good ten years. Bloody lucky for you that the Brits take a slightly more expansive view of the world.

Now, it is true that expats having dual citizenship could be construed as being citizens of the country they choose to live in. No problem there. But our friend Meeb has that right too, as does any other expat coming to Oz, or any immigrant who jumps through the hoops to become a citizen. He has the same rights you do, so what is your problem? Oh, and while you are thinking about that, how long is it since your family emigrated to Oz, taking, in the process, a job belonging to an Australian?

Wake up. A job in Australia does not belong to an Australian. It belongs to person chosen by the employer, who is best qualified for the job, and who can satisfy immigration requirements.

I am not sure which is sadder, seeing Aussie pilots squabbling over jobs flying 20-year-old Aztecs, or listening to Aussies whine on about anyone who doesn't speak Strine working in Australia.

You sound worse than a bloody Pom, and they whine like a Dart at high idle...

Oh, and by the way, I am just in the process of getting my Oz licence, so before you know it I will be across there using my 10K hours and piles of jet time to beat you to a nice job. Thanks, CASA, for making it so easy... ;)

[Flintstone]

How many expat Aussies working in the UK have dual citizenship?

They ALL have either dual citzenship or a UK or other european passport. Without those they wouldn't have the right to work here.

Good luck to them I say.

ROKAPE. Everyone except you acknowledges that there are more Australian pilots working overseas than there are filthy, job grabbing, foreign pilots stealing bread from the mouths of hard working Australians in God's own country. The facts support this. This is deemed 'A Good Thing' for those seeking work in Australian aviation.

Now would be a good time for you to admit to this too. Have you noticed how you are the only one arguing your corner? Everyone else is either saying nothing or trying to explain to you, slowly and in words of few syllables, that you are wrong.

If you're not adult enough to admit this just stop posting. Either way, you're just making yourself look silly.

[MOR]

He's just another wannabe driving a lighty, all bent out of shape 'cos he can't get a decent job and needs somebody to blame for his lack of career progression...

[Flintstone]

That'd be right.

[Ivor Biggin]

Wake up. A job in Australia does not belong to an Australian. It belongs to person chosen by the employer, who is best qualified for the job, and who can satisfy immigration requirements.

You fool MOR....... FOOL. A job in australia most certainly belongs to an Australian. When it becomes detrimental to industry and there are no other options, then, and only then should an expat get a look in (for a defined period). Dual citizanship or not. We'll let you know when that becomes the case in the turbo prop market (or any other for that matter), but don't hold you breath. Actually do hold it.

[Flintstone]

Ivor.

If Australian employers are taking on foreign employees in aviation, basket weaving, banking, whatever then it seems they are the ones deciding who the jobs got to, no?

Who would you have sitting at the front of the aircraft your loved ones travel on, a suitably qualified and experienced foreign pilot or one who jagged the job on the basis of his/her place of birth?

And I didn't see MOR being abusive so how about an apology?

[MOR]

lol... ANOTHER wannabe driving a lighty, all bent out of shape 'cos he can't get a decent job and needs somebody to blame for his lack of career progression...

Now why do you think Oz airlines would hire foreigners over Aussies? Could it be... gasp... that the foreigners are more qualified? That they actually have some solid airline experience, rather than 20,000 hours banging around the outback in 20-year-old Aztecs? Time, by the way, that is virtually worthless to an airline?

If you want to blame somebody, try blaming your government, because they make the rules... not the foreigners that are invited to take advantage of them.

[Pin Head]

It s called fair trade. check out all the ozzies working around covent garden london. there is a pub in london that accepts no one other tha an ozzie, the place to go for a visa.

[ROKAPE]

MOR

If the UK took the attitude that you are advocating, hundreds of Aussie pilots, currently employed in the UK instead of British pilots, would return home and effectively kill any chance of low-time Aussie pilots ever getting a job.

Australia has a smaller airline industry than the UK. If the UK didn't require Australian pilots, then they wouldn't be employed. If they are a dual citizen of the UK and Australia, then they have the right to be considered for a UK position. Some Australian pilots are working in the UK because they couldn't get a job in Australia (for whatever reason), are they going to suddenly return and walk into an airline job? No. I keep referring to the airlines as yourself and Flintstone describe myself and Ivor as "wannabes" and "driving lighties". As soon as you fail to make your point you degenerate to 'my aeroplane is bigger than yours', pathetic. If Meeb is an Australian citizen then good luck to him, he hasn't written that he is. What I have written is
Australia does not/should not have a requirement for foreign turbo prop pilots.

You wrote
Wake up. A job in Australia does not belong to an Australian. It belongs to person chosen by the employer, who is best qualified for the job, and who can satisfy immigration requirements
Yes a job does belong to an Australian, until we have a pilot shortage. If there is no way to train an Australian or the position requires someone immediately, then a foreigner can get a look in, after he passes working visa requirements.
I am not sure which is sadder, seeing Aussie pilots squabbling over jobs flying 20-year-old Aztecs, or listening to Aussies whine on about anyone who doesn't speak Strine working in Australia
An Englishman dumping on Australian pilots, our lovely old Aztecs and our accents THEN wanting to come and work here...I'm not sure which is sadder either
You sound worse than a bloody Pom, and they whine like a Dart at high idle... Then dumping on his 'own' mob as well. You are a champ, when can we expect you?


Oh, and by the way, I am just in the process of getting my Oz licence, so before you know it I will be across there using my 10K hours and piles of jet time to beat you to a nice job. Thanks, CASA, for making it so easy
Hehehehe too late.......then followed by, twice
He's just another wannabe driving a lighty, all bent out of shape 'cos he can't get a decent job and needs somebody to blame for his lack of career progression... but wait there's more

Now why do you think Oz airlines would hire foreigners over Aussies? Could it be... gasp... that the foreigners are more qualified? That they actually have some solid airline experience, rather than 20,000 hours banging around the outback in 20-year-old Aztecs? Time, by the way, that is virtually worthless to an airline?
...but myself and Ivor are the ones 'bent out of shape cos we can't a decent job'? You are a true aviation hero. The crews at Channel Express must be ready to 'wop' you, no wonder your trying to escape down under. 'Lack of career progression' for you up there?

'Solid' European airline time. Seeing as your making assumptions on flying experience and airline requirements in Australia.... Did you get the job with 300 hrs and an MCC course from Oxford flight school old chap? Or because you had Radar, VHF, CatIII ILS, a captain/FO holding your hand and all that ferocious strato-cu cloud everywhere you went? Hate to tell you but the Australian airlines you are coming down to 'beat' me to, value those '20,000 hrs banging around the outback in a 20 year old Aztec'. If your solid European experience was so valued I wonder why there are any Australian flying down here at all.
'You just don't get it'

Flintstone


ROKAPE. Everyone except you acknowledges that there are more Australian pilots working overseas than there are filthy, job grabbing, foreign pilots stealing bread from the mouths of hard working Australians in God's own country. The facts support this.
Wrong.
I wrote to redsnail
In countries that have no GA, small military forces, inexperienced pilot body and where the occupation of professional pilot is not a career aspiration i.e. Hong Kong S.A.R. , PRoC, United Arab Emirates, Taiwan, Singapore etc. Then I guess it's every pilot nationality for themselves! Come one come all. I can see those countries being chock full of Australians, however which are the other countries to which you refer? U.K. , U.S.A. , Canada , N.Z. ,R.S.A.? Are they really 'chock full'? I stand corrected on this, as unlike yourself I am not an expat "taking jobs from the locals".

You wrote

Now would be a good time for you to admit to this too. Have you noticed how you are the only one arguing your corner? Everyone else is either saying nothing or trying to explain to you, slowly and in words of few syllables, that you are wrong.
I am having a argument with two Englishman, a Scotsman and an expat Australian regarding jobs for Australians in Australia! Sorry old chap but you are wrong about me being the only one in my corner. Why don't you trawl through your own part of PPRUNE.

If you're not adult enough to admit this just stop posting. Either way, you're just making yourself look silly.
..but then you agree with MOR's pathetic post regarding 'wannabes', 'lighties' etc. Then you get all emotive with this one
Who would you have sitting at the front of the aircraft your loved ones travel on, a suitably qualified and experienced foreign pilot or one who jagged the job on the basis of his/her place of birth?
You are making yourself look silly.
And I didn't see MOR being abusive so how about an apology? Is this British sarcasm? Everybody else kept it civil until MOR decided to crashland with his moronic comments.

Pin Head

Check out all the Brits(Pop 58.7 million) working in Australia (Pop 20 million) i.e. Sydney, Melbourne, Brisbane, Cairns, Adelaide, Perth, Broome,Darwin, Alice Springs, Hobart etc etc. We are talking about pilot positions, and until recently turbo-prop positions.

[MOR]

If the UK didn't require Australian pilots, then they wouldn't be employed.

Wrong. There are plenty of unemployed CPL holders in the UK who would jump at the jobs held by Aussies. I know, I used to be tasked with trawling through the 50-60 CV's we received every week from British pilots looking for employment.

If they are a dual citizen of the UK and Australia, then they have the right to be considered for a UK position.

...in the same way that Brits with Aussie citizenship, or right of abode, have the right to be considered for an Australian position... jeez...

yourself and Flintstone describe myself and Ivor as "wannabes" and "driving lighties".

Well Mr Biggin is certainly driving a lighty, unless a PC12 is a "heavy" in your estimation. What do you fly? You may also care to note that he was calling me a fool, which rather blunts your point.

Yes a job does belong to an Australian, until we have a pilot shortage.

Sadly for you, your government, and Australian law, say differently.

An Englishman dumping on Australian pilots, our lovely old Aztecs and our accents THEN wanting to come and work here...I'm not sure which is sadder either

Not nearly as sad as you not working out that I'm not a pom... ah well, keep trying... :rolleyes:

The crews at Channel Express must be ready to 'wop' you,

You really are having comprehension problems! Never worked for Chanex. Or are you trying to make some other obscure point?

'Lack of career progression' for you up there?

Well, my last UK job was as a training captain on a nice jet, so.... no. Nice try, though.

Did you get the job with 300 hrs and an MCC course from Oxford flight school old chap?

Well I started long before MCC, but I did get my first UK airline job with 710 hours in my logbook. Most of that was instructing (and not in the UK either).

Hate to tell you but the Australian airlines you are coming down to 'beat' me to, value those '20,000 hrs banging around the outback in a 20 year old Aztec'. If your solid European experience was so valued I wonder why there are any Australian flying down here at all.

Well, there aren't many. But, to the point: if you knew your arse from your elbow, you would know that lots of single-pilot time is in fact a major training impediment when flying multi-crew aircraft. All the relevant studies show a dramatically increased conversion time for long-time, single-pilot crew members. The longer you do it, the harder it is.

Now it is possible that Oz airlines have their collective heads so firmly rooted in the sand that they haven't figured this out yet, but everybody else has. Do some research.

In my last company, we deliberately did not hire people with lots of single-pilot time, it took too long to get them thinking multi-crew and we ended up chopping a lot of them from the sim course.

I am having a argument with two Englishman, a Scotsman and an expat Australian

No... you aren't.

Luckily for us, your quaint colonial attitudes are not shared by the majority of your countrymen, your laws, or your government...

[fruitbatflyer]

Putting aside the Pom versus Ozzie slanging for a minute, the reason various airlines require certain command hours, turbine hours or whatever, is because they can. It's their train set.
Also, a lot of operators in Oz have contracts with mining or oil companies and those companies dictate the minimum experience level of pilots on their contract, flying their staff. Again, their train set.
The reason command time, even in bugsmashers, is so valued in Oz is because it provides a sort of Darwinist evolution thing. The useless ones crash and burn, literally sometimes. Then the night freight turbine operators pick up the 2000 hour survivors. Later the airlines pick up the 3000 hour survivors out of that lot. When there is a relative shortage the 2000 hours may drop to 1500, or even 1200, but most chief pilots want some evidence of an ability to survive and make decisions.
It is a nonsense to suggest that a pilot used to single crew ops can't learn to be a good co-pilot. Any good training system will soon beat some CRM and SOP into anyone willing to learn. Then a few years as a co-pilot and the necessary skills for command are acquired by most. The only problem is the single pilot who thinks he/she should be captain on day two after getting into a two pilot cockpit. That tends to be more of a problem with some military jocks who do have superior skills in some areas and so assume that they know it all. Again, a good training system beats that notion out of all but the most stubborn.
Other countries, where there is no real G.A. industry do it different because they have no choice but to take pilots with virtually no command time. If it works for them, fine. Doesn't mean we have to.

[MOR]

The trouble with your theory, is that no modern airline thinks like that. Airline training departments work to budgets, and nothing stretches the budget as much as getting bad single-pilot habits out of pilots, and replacing them with multi-crew skills. The problem is that the very resourcefulness and survival instinct that works so well in GA, tends to lead these pilots to think that they have superior skills. It is often the re-conditioning of that mindset that takes all the time. I have sat in the simulator time and time again, and watched ex-air taxi guys simply refuse to use their partner in the flight deck. It isn't usually deliberate, it is mostly a result of ingrained habit, and if the habit has been ingrained over many years, it is very hard to shift.

Most airlines budget a finite number of sim sessions for each new pilot. Hopefully the candidates who are training risks are screened out at interview, but some always get through. Few airlines will allow more than one or two extra sessions in the sim; in one airline I worked for, new F/O's got 11 sim sessions and no more. If they hadn't reached the standard by then, they were chopped. We chopped a lot of single-pilot people. It was harsh, but it was budget-driven.

Of course CRM is assessable on every check in Europe, and is a fail item if not carried out properly.

[fruitbatflyer]

MOR, early in this thread you stated that you had ' no intention of setting foot in Ozmateland ' so whether or not airlines here won't recruit 300 to 800 hour pilots should be of no concern to you personally. However other pilots in this experience range need to know that they are wasting their time and money buying jet ratings in the hopes that this will fast track them to an airline job in Oz. Not unless we get a real shortage, and elsewhere that has been dismissed as unlikely this side of hell freezing over.
Every pilot likes to justify their qualifications and experience as being the best or most suitable for the jobs up for grabs.
All I'm saying is that the normal progression expected in this country is 1000 to 1500 on single pilot singles and twins and maybe another 1000 or so either left or right seat on turbo props, if you can get it. THEN you are in the ballpark come recruiting time at Big Jet Airlines. Simply because that kind of experience IS available here. Although the airlines are not allowed to discriminate on an age basis, you can bet that their selection processes would identify those who have been in a single pilot role so long as to be difficult to train, and they would not get hired. Of course there are exceptions to all the above, like being closely related to the boss, or the occasional political minority appointment made to appease Canberra, but that has been beaten to death elsewhere.
Any 'modern airline thinking' should include appropriate training in the classroom and simulator to iron out any CRM issues, and any pilot who does not display an understanding of the two crew concept on say, the second day of sim, should be scrubbed right there, because it ain't rocket science. Airlines and pilots have to accept the occasional failure as part of the business they are in.
Sadly, with the move towards pilots paying for their own ratings, there is a reluctance by some training outfits, who make their money from young hopefuls, to tell them to go away and get some real time before putting their cash into a jet endorsement.
There is also a real concern at some levels about the degradation in basic flying skills in today's jet pilots. Do a search on the UK CAA's website for a very good paper on loss of skills as a result of automation. At the risk of provoking MOR further, dare I say the 300 to 800 hour pilot would be unlikely to acquire real stick and rudder skills in the first place, so could hardly suffer a degradation?

[MOR]

so whether or not airlines here won't recruit 300 to 800 hour pilots should be of no concern to you personally.

Quite right... doesn't concern me in the slightest. Not sure why you think it does. I'm simply stating modern thinking on the subject of training pilots.

Agreed that buying a speculative rating in OZ is a waste of time. However, over in NZ, it is not unusual for a job offer to be made on the basis of a completed type rating, and I expect that approach to become common in Oz too.

All I'm saying is that the normal progression expected in this country is 1000 to 1500 on single pilot singles and twins and maybe another 1000 or so either left or right seat on turbo props, if you can get it. THEN you are in the ballpark come recruiting time at Big Jet Airlines.

Sure. That is common elsewhere too, and in any case is not what I am talking about. It is the people who have been flying, say, five years or so in a single-pilot environment that are usually the biggest risks. Such people are relatively common in Oz.

Any 'modern airline thinking' should include appropriate training in the classroom and simulator to iron out any CRM issues

It does, but it is the time it takes to sort out CRM issues, before getting to the main training, that causes the problems. Very little of it is effectively taught as theory, you have to do it.

any pilot who does not display an understanding of the two crew concept on say, the second day of sim, should be scrubbed right there, because it ain't rocket science.

It is very, very rare for a pilot with no multi-crew and tons of single-crew experience, to be even close to working effectively after two sim sessions. More like session six before you really start to see the ones that aren't adapting. Even then, the tendency is to give them more time to get it sorted, and you then end up having to chop them at the end of the course. This is seriously expensive for the airlines and totally screws the training program.

It isn't rocket science, but it is a series of complex, learned behaviours. These behaviours are amongst the hardest to instil in a new candidiate, and the evidence of that is the large number who revert to a familiar (single pilot) behaviour when under stress. The commonest note I write in training flies is "failed to use other crew member".

dare I say the 300 to 800 hour pilot would be unlikely to acquire real stick and rudder skills in the first place, so could hardly suffer a degradation?

Stick and rudder skills are not the issue here, however you are correct, and it is a very real concern. When I did my UK instrument rating, the guy who did my sim work said "the best thing you can do is not turn on the autopilot for the first 5000 hours of your career". A little extreme, perhaps, but then he used to fly a Comet without the autopilot...

We encourage our crews to fly manually for the first and last 5000' of the flight, at least one or two flights per week. Personally, I always fly the SID manually, and the approach manually when time (and fatigue levels) permit. Call me old-fashioned, but I never have any trouble on sim checks!

[yowie]

What was the question again?:cool: Hey Biggun,didnt know you had been demoted to the PC:ok:

[Ivor Biggin]

Yes- news to me too yowie. Best hit the books.

Mor wrote:
Quite right... doesn't concern me in the slightest. Not sure why you think it does. I'm simply stating modern thinking on the subject of training pilots.

There's very little that falls into the modern category regarding your thinking Mor. In fact, I doubt there much thinking going on at all.

[ROKAPE]

MOR

...in the same way that Brits with Aussie citizenship, or right of abode, have the right to be considered for an Australian position... jeez...

Ahhh at no stage have I written that an Australian citizen isn't eligible for a position in Australia?


Well Mr Biggin is certainly driving a lighty, unless a PC12 is a "heavy" in your estimation. What do you fly? You may also care to note that he was calling me a fool, which rather blunts your point.

At no stage did I write that a PC12 was a heavy. Unlike yourself I have an aircraft type on my profile. Did you quickly check my profile to back up your 'I fly a bigger aeroplane than you therefore I am right on this subject' theory?

Not nearly as sad as you not working out that I'm not a pom... ah well, keep trying...

Well where are you from 'world's greatest aviation hero'? Once again you have nothing on your profile. From your other ramblings your either from NZ, the US or Lithuania? Please fill us in.

You really are having comprehension problems! Never worked for Chanex. Or are you trying to make some other obscure point?
Just wondering where your 'solid' European airline time has come from...Flybe. perhaps?

Well, there aren't many. But, to the point: if you knew your arse from your elbow, you would know that lots of single-pilot time is in fact a major training impediment when flying multi-crew aircraft.
The trouble with your theory, is that no modern airline thinks like that. Airline training departments work to budgets, and nothing stretches the budget as much as getting bad single-pilot habits out of pilots, and replacing them with multi-crew skills. etc etc

Well unlike you MOR, I didn't get my airline start with 710 hours 'heavy' multi crew instructing time. I didn't realise a PA28 was considered that in Europe, USA or NZ or where ever it is you come from. My single pilot time has been of no hindrance.

Fruitbatflyer wrote

MOR, early in this thread you stated that you had ' no intention of setting foot in Ozmateland ' so whether or not airlines here won't recruit 300 to 800 hour pilots should be of no concern to you personally

YOU wrote

Quite right... doesn't concern me in the slightest. Not sure why you think it does. I'm simply stating modern thinking on the subject of training pilots

Yet earlier you wrote

Oh, and by the way, I am just in the process of getting my Oz licence, so before you know it I will be across there using my 10K hours and piles of jet time to beat you to a nice job. Thanks, CASA, for making it so easy
"please explain?"

As for your rantings on single pilot flying, airline recruitment and airline training policies...:hmm:

MORon

[MOR]

Ivor Littleun

There's very little that falls into the modern category regarding your thinking Mor

Try doing some research on the subject. You might then like to come back and apologise. You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

ROKAPE

Ahhh at no stage have I written that an Australian citizen isn't eligible for a position in Australia?

Go back to page one. You were railing against Meeb working in Oz, despite the fact that he has right of abode. Look at the part of my post you refer to... three words... right of abode.

Unlike yourself I have an aircraft type on my profile. Did you quickly check my profile to back up your 'I fly a bigger aeroplane than you therefore I am right on this subject' theory?

Who the f**k cares? Unlike you, I don't feel the need to dazzle the world with the aircraft I fly. Tell you what, though, my one has two engines and weighs more than 50 tonnes.

Please fill us in.

Nah, it's more fun watching you try to figure it out.:rolleyes:

Just wondering where your 'solid' European airline time has come from

The larger ones were British Midland and Sabena.

Well unlike you MOR, I didn't get my airline start with 710 hours 'heavy' multi crew instructing time.

Nor did I, and if you could read big words, you would know that was exactly my point.

"please explain?"

You really do need everything explaining to you, don't you?

You were being "wound up", but you are simply too dim to recognise it. Let me give you a hint. An Oz licence is useful for reasons other than flying in Oz. Think about that for a week or so, then let me know if you still haven't figured it out...

As for your rantings on single pilot flying, airline recruitment and airline training policies...


Lol... coming from someone with no multi-crew experience, no airline experience, and no recruiting experience... we should really take your word for it.... NOT! Better get back to sending out CV's laddie... :p

[ROKAPE]

MOR

I'm referring to the 'Australian citizen' part, as I wrote.
You were the one so interested in PC12's, what aircraft Ivor flys, wannabes and lighties. Now it's 'who cares' what aircraft type?
Yes, you did write that you got your first job with 710 hrs, mostly instructing. Your still clinging to the my aeroplanes bigger therefore I'm right argument. Now it's all getting too hard it's a 'wind up'. I'm not ranting about airline training, untrainable single crew pilots and airlines recruitment, you are. You are getting really boring, have another glass of red MORon.

[MOR]

LOL

Well everybody else gets it, pity you can't figure it out.

It's got nothing to do with the size of aircraft. It has to do with experience and achievement. You have little of either, and yet you go on and on about topics you have no experience or knowledge of.

The thread started with you voicing your opposition to our friend Meeb, who has the Right of Abode in Australia, coming to Oz to work. You asserted that those jobs belong to Australians, when this is patently not so. You were wrong about that, and you have been wrong about pretty much everything else since then.

I'm glad you are happy flying your PC12, maybe you will see Meeb down in Oz as he flies past in whatever airline-class aircraft he ends up flying...

[Woomera]

Now, now kiddies...

If you can't play nicely we'll have to take your toys away:E

**Click**

Woomera (Eastern States)