Is there a light at the end of the tunnel?

[forwardassist]

Ladies and Gentlemen
We live in a military world where we are constantly asked to do more with less, equipment is procured late and therefore not up to requirement and more often at greater cost, and we are seen as a burden on the taxpayer for daring to have some time off when we should be obviously confined to barracks every night whilst on detachment. We are employed as a world police force with no real support from either our lords and masters or the public, with less notice taken when we are killed than when we commit a faux pas.

Where do you feel the Armed Forces going to be in a few years time and does anyone have a sensible answer as to the way ahead? Is there an answer or shall we continue until the last few serviceable aircraft are grounded in the UK since military aircraft make too much noise for horse riders?
I ask as one who spends half the year away and half the day when he is back at work trying to keep on top of the next detachment/days work/duty/reports/knee jerk reaction etc etc.

I'm bu99ered if I know the answer and as a result becoming more and more attracted to taking the walk at IPP in a couple of years, as, no doubt, are others. I am a long time member of this forum, but am posting under another name due to rumours of participation being frowned upon by hierarchy and affecting promotion and postings (another reason to NOT be cheerful - we cant even complain anymore!)!

I'm sure all you wags drool at the chance to share your wit on threads like this, and I await your usual venting, but before you let fly with your pearls, if anyone has a genuinely good idea, now's the time.

[sweep complete]

Forward Assist,

Seems like this could become a good thread, and will be interesting to see what others make of your comments. I can only agree with you - I have become more and more disheartened over the years and really can't see anything making me want to stay in for longer trhan I have to. I think it will be a struggle to make it to pension point!

Look forward to someone coming up with a realistic way forward - I can't!!

[RADAR SCRATCHPAD]

Typed your question into my computer ...

... computer says "No"

[flipster]

If there is light at the end of the tunnel..........

........... then it is likely to be the 8:15 from Paddington!


sorry - that was an obvious comment - but it has parallels with the future of our great Service.

[opso]

........... then it is likely to be the 8:15 from Paddington! Given how bad our rail service is, that train will have been cancelled as well.

[ZH875]

Doesn't matter if it is the 8:15 from Paddington, the Duke of York will be well on his way to the golf course, in one of HMs finest hired helicopters.

[Now a 'J' Bloke!!]

Given how bad our rail service is, that train will have been cancelled as well

Hi Gang;

Given that the rail service gets about a 90% success rate on trips (missions?)....who are we to talk???

Regards to Most;
'J' Bloke

Canx twice last week!!!

[TurbineTooHot]

Morning chaps,

As one who is fairly new to the melting pot, but has grown up around the services, I have watched the steady decline in not only the size and shape of the Force, but the spirit and morale of those within. And things are getting bleaker and bleaker.

There is, as we all know, a mindset in the UK armed forces of making do, ie getting the job done reasonably well with the consistently sh!!ty hand we've been dealt by our lords and masters.

Our success has been our undoing. This has come up in threads past, but this seems like the best place to pop it in again.

THE ARMED FORCES WILL ONLY SURVIVE IF WE FAIL.

We are coming to the breaking point, the point in the graph where the "product" (God, I hate calling it that), can no longer be sustained by the meagre funding.

Actually being at home to mister cock-up on a grand scale might jog the purse-string holders into taking politically risky decisions that will benifit everyone in the long run, and not just get them re-elected because they've cut taxes or given a few more million asylum seekers council houses.


Rant 1 over. 2 may follow shortly with ideas of how to not be at home to mister cockup.

[forwardassist]

Sweep Complete & TTH
Thank you for the input. I can only guess that everyone else are happy, have no answer, or are upset that others made the train jokes before them. I look forward to your second, and anyone else's, rant.

[hyd3failure]

whats the question?

[jockspice]

The give away is the question marks in the first post. :rolleyes:

[SVK]

TTH
THE ARMED FORCES WILL ONLY SURVIVE IF WE FAIL.

I've heard the same thing said but in a different manner.

"The Armed Forces are the UK's most comprehensive Insurance Policy"

I've no problem with that, but what is the Government going to do when it finally realises it's cashed it in?

To be effective we need boots on the ground for the Army; ships at sea for the RN and I don't really care how smart Storm Shadow is it won't dish out First Aid at an RTA or put the fires out in Op Fresco 2. Or rescue trapped civilians in Carlisle, or Boscastle or the Ivory Coast.......the list goes on.

Technology and investment in it is a v. good thing but what happens when there's no-one left to operate it?

The problem is of course (and I don't know the exact figure but someone will no doubt correct me) but the majority of the money going to the Forces is paid out in wages.

Which seems strange coz' I never seem to see much of those either............

Edited because in my rant I forgot to spell check!

[glum]

The newspapers today stated that the RAF would be down to 300 FJ pilots by 2020. So how come we've ordered 232 Typhoon, and 150 JSF? Who's gonna fly them?

Maybe the FJ folk will get leaned, and go into a joint FJ / truckie / Rotary central Squadron, much as the groundcrew have been forced to. Today a Typhoon bombing run, tomorrow a bit of Aerial Delivery, and Friday some Air Sea Rescue. Marvellous!

[Snakecharmer]

Most probable answer is 'no'.

You hit the nail on the head in the original post... the culture of our once great nation is moving inexorably away from one where the state's role is to provide external security (us) and internal security (police). These functions are both expensive and decreasingly valued. However, retrain as a social worker, social housing co-ordinator, asylum seekers' friend etc and you'll be fine. It's probably not worth getting worked up about... we're in irreversible decline.

On a positive note, the civil air transport sector isn't in a permanent state of decline! More to the point, you can work to a number of airlines' rosters from pretty much anywhere... the South of France appeals to me!

[hyd3failure]

GLUM - Maybe some of the pilots will be in the Navy ?

Snakecharmer - A friend of mine Works for BA out of Southampton and lives in the S France. He commutes daily.

[charliegolf]

Doesn't every generation of serviceman think the RAF/Army/Navy etc is going to hell in a handcart?

The shape will change (over and over), but some things won't.

There will be no shortage of aircrew candidates. It's a **** hot way to work every day; the pay's great (don't think it's not!), and no-one has to join or stay.

This site will still be home to career whingers, eternal optimists and wind-up merchants in the same proportion.

Newbies won't know any better, until they know enough to know better, and they still won't have to stay.

Now, where's my pipe n slippers?

[Melchett01]

Hmmmm an interesting issue that unfortunately raises more questions than I'm sure anybody has answers for. But my first point would be

Doesn't every generation of serviceman think the RAF/Army/Navy etc is going to hell in a handcart?

Yes CG, I think you're right about that - and it's not just confined to the Armed Forces. However, in this case, I do think that ForwardAssist has a very valid point - we are going to hell in a handcart. Actually I think we're almost there - it's the next exit just after Bliar-town and Buffoon-ville.

Whilst not exactly an old timer, I have been in for 7 years and the drop in everything connected with the military - other than our output has been quicker than a slapper's drawers on a Friday night in Peterhead (not that I have any experience of that point).

1. We can no longer do anything that costs more than we can scrape together from the loose change down the back of the sofa.

2. Any form of fun that 20 years ago would have been described as building team spirit or morale is instantly spread over pages 1-12 of those items that can only be described as 'newspapers' in the loosest sense of the word (even my dog now objects to the Mirror and Sun in his dog basket), having mortally offended some 57 year old do-gooder called Norman from Little Snoring on the Wold.

3. We have a morally bankrupt government that doesn't give a damn about the armed forces, even though we are used in all sorts of roles from steely-eyed dealers of death (what we're supposed to do), to firemen, nannies, politically correct adverts for HMG's questionable 'inclusivity' policies and instruments of Tony's attempt to get the Nobel Prize for hypocracy (what we're not supposed to do).

4. We have a procurement system that leaves me gasping for breath and incandescent with rage at it's sheer general uselessness and incompetence coupled, which is often coupled with point 3 and HMG's moral vacuum that refuses to get rid of organisations that can't provide the goods because it might cost a few votes here and there. The end result being that we go off on ops without the kit we are supposed to have or if we are lucky with defective kit - albeit not enough of it.

5. We have a bunch of airships that by and large appear to be weaker than a soggy kit-kat, who are unwilling to stand up to the politicians and defend the interests of the service and the people underneath them; just because it might get them the sack or they won't get their next stripe or their 'K'. Where are the Dowdings of today who are prepared to stand up and tell the politicians no, this can't be done and trying to force it through will end in disaster. Well I've had a good hard look, and as far as I can see, the last one was the Navy-chappy Boyce who was CDS a few years back who was asked to leave early becuase he stood up for what he believed in. Back bone???? Not something the current lot appear to have heard much about - or that's the way it appears from my end of the trench.

6. We have got to the point that the RAF has been contracted out so much, that we are losing the can-do spirit to be replaced by can-do, as long as it isn't between 1000-1030, 1500-1530 or after 1615 (1530 on Fridays); won't stop me going on leave even though there is a war on; I can still get my round of golf in every Tuesday afternoon and nobody writes anything nasty about my being an oxygen thief on my annual civil service report. Civilianizing has meant that so much of our service ethos has gone for good that if we ever tried to get it back, we'd fail dismally only finding it dead under a pile of red tape, petty bureacracy and cost cutting measures.

And to my mind, this list of woe has it's roots in one place and one place only - the concept of treating the Armed Forces like it is a business. Whilst I'm all for financial responsibility, we have gone way too far and given the accountants and management consultants way too much sway. The really annoying thing is, we pay millions each year to employ these people and the end result of their £5.3M cost saving study is that they tell us we can't afford to pay their fees, so we'll just have to axe another hospital/ship/sqn/regiment :\ This all stems from having things (I won't use the term leaders :E) that have never served and cannot see the damage they have done to the forces by treating them like a business.

We do not operate in a world of profit and loss, instead our books balance when the same number of aircraft/tanks/people come home from a deployment that went out, having been successful in their mission. Defence is inherently expensive but it's output is often intangible - what do the politicians have to show for pumping billions our way each year. We would probably all point out that sleeping safe in your beds and watching your kids grow up happy and safe are probably tangible enough benefits of what we do, but that isn't enough for the politicians. They want that and they want everything else that goes with trying to buy the electorate - yes we have noticed Mr Bliar, and no we're not stupid.

So how do you fix it? Well I have to say that right now, we're bollocksed. I don't think we can fix it for the current generation. It has been said that we need to fail, to show them that we can't do everything with nothing, and then hopefully we'll get some cash. Whilst I see the logic, my personal pride will not allow me to that - not if there is a chance that I can do what I need to do successfully, no matter how meager the resources given to me to do it. Of course if I fail unintentionally, then that's a different matter. I think we need to make people realise that we are not a business and that you can't measure what we do in terms of profit and loss, and the sooner the airships (and tankships and ermm shipships??) force this point through so much the better. When they succeed there, we might get the accountants off our backs, which might ease the pressure a little to stop doing everything with nothing until you disappear in an ever decreasing circle up your own arse. I also think that part of the job specs for PM/ SoS Def should have been a spell in the forces, including time on ops, so they do actually appreciate what we are about and what the impact of slowly bleeding us to death is.

Alternatively, we call their bluffs - issue shares in the RAF and then sack the board of directors!!!!!!:ok:

[SVK]

Melchett01,


Everything I would wish to say - and in a far more eloquent way than I could put it myself.

Regards

SVK

[insty66]

Melchett01,

Very well said indeed, I wish I could express my thoughts and ideas half as well.
A brilliant post that should get a far wider readership than this forum.

[FJJP]

Melchy, in a full Service career I've seen some pretty jazzy reports and papers, but I have to doff my cap at you - that's just about the finest, most succinct that it has ever been my pleasure to read. Pity that the subject caused it in the first place...

[Gainesy]

Melchett01

Outstanding post!!!

:ok:

[Training Risky]

Good stuff Melchett, you sound to be rather different to your namesake!

[TurbineTooHot]

Melchett:

Mate, get youself promoted! That is a view shared by many, but few could have espoused so well. Nice one! :ok:

And to my mind, this list of woe has it's roots in one place and one place only - the concept of treating the Armed Forces like it is a business.

I've got it. Corporate sponsorship! Yes, yes, that's it. Solve all the money problems!

VC10s and Timmy Tristar Tankers could be flying adverts for Viagra: "Keeps you up longer!"

The StormShadow missile, brought to your bunker in association is Wella Shockwaves.

This needs a new thread as this one's quite serious.

[Roland Pulfrew]

Melchy

Spot on.:ok: Perhaps you could send a copy to CAS for inclusion in the next issue of that yoof magazine "U Need 2 No", and see if you get a reply to all the issues raised.:ooh:

[An Teallach]

If God reads Pprune, Melchie, he should resurrect Speckled Jim for you as a reward.

I fear, however that the RAF is destined to have the leadership it has for some time to come. It's ingrained in the system. Our potential Airship must be singled out by the age of 30 so we start out with a very small gene pool of male, white, heterosexual (or, at least, have the 'right' sort of wife) aviators (probably Anglo-Saxon Protestants as well) since the people who wrote those first couple of ACRs that got our hero selected for the first rung of Jacob's Ladder were probably at the lower end of the RAF intellectual food chain. He (bugger diversity) must finish Flying Training and seriously impress on his first couple of tours (all you long term holders, forget it!).

He will then be pushed through the requisite command and staff tours in the full knowledge that he is on the ladder to the stars. By the time he is a Wg Cdr (35 - 40 ish) he knows that the rungs of the ladder are very shaky and it is very easy to fall off. Add to this even just a slight authoritarian personality and already, a lot of people underneath his overweening ambition are suffering.

To complete all the requisite tours, our hero barely has time to get his feet under one desk before he is moved on to the next. Doing anything novel, showing initiative or, in fact, doing anything at all are very, very risky activities. If you do nothing, by definition you can't cock it up, and with his fear of failure motivation (which is what got him noticed in the first place and is essential in moderation in junior avaiators), our hero never really gets the chance to achieve anything.

However, at each stage of the game, the gene pool is getting smaller: The good guys who actually want to achieve something with their lives other than scrambled egg, laughable Ruritanian imperial baubles and fawning subordinates move on to where they get the chance to actually do something and really achieve. Some die and some are persuaded by wives sick of packing every 18-24 months that there's a better life outside.

A few will have even committed career suicide by displaying integrity and pointing out that the Emperor is, indeed, bollock naked, silly boys!

The ones that reach the top are essentially the ones that are left in the gene pool. And they are the greatest and the system was intelligent enough to 'select' them so why change it?

And nothing ever happens, nothing happens at all. The odd war comes along and our hero may think he's got the chance to achieve, but all those above him must also stick their oar in - try changing doctrine in the middle of a campaign.

So you young guns, if you are 28-30 and have a couple of tours under your belt, get the 'right' sort of wife and jump on the escalator. It's not so much a climb as a ride, just don't be tempted to do anything, keep your trousers and your mouth zipped!

[TurbineTooHot]

Oh An Teallach,

A wise one, who hath beeneth around ye blocke.

Here's a thought.

Military aviators, especially those in the FJ world, are inherently self centred. I should know.... This is not critisism, just observation, thus:

- Unlike our army bretherin, the young fg/plt off entering the training system has one thing and one thing one his/her mind. Passing the course and getting the aircraft type they want to fly. This, in the end is down to individual performance. The only way they look is up.
Thinks: "If I please my instructor/flt cdr/boss, then I'll get an good report/recommend to the streaming board."

-Skip ahead to frontline 2nd tourist. Once again, the ambitious JO's eyes are angled up. "Fly like a god, push MYSELF to the front of the que for everything, do a decent secondary duty, and the boss/flt cdr/poster will notice and I'll get promoted". There is no thought of those below, for there is no-one below.

- Few years later, our JO is now S/L flt cdr. Finally some reponsibility, aged 32-3+. Still, these flt members were until recently peers of their cdr.....

Still we the little people are surprised that our lords and masters seem only to be interested in pleasing their bosses in Whitehall and Westminster, with seeming little regard for those below.

The fact is that those who make it to those heady heights will have had no command experience for the first 10 formative years of their careers! What hope then, when they are given a station, then a Air rank and a command.

This is a sweeping generalisation, and I have had the privilege to have served under some fantasic bosses/staishes, and the misfortune to have been afflicted by the bad.

Still, there may be an answer, albeit not a popular one within our community.

Command experience for JO aircrew. Not just in a secondary duty capacity such as block OIC, but a full tour as a flt cdr, administering budgets and pastoral care to troops. Would not only instill management skills that are really not touched upon usually for aircrew before JOCC/ISS, it may also sort out some of the manpower blockages in the system.

Whoever may be listening,

Let me know what you think.

Turbs

[Lee Jung]

If there is a light on at the end of the tunnel, would the last man/woman out of the armed forces please turn it off.

Thank you.

[Push To Test]

I cannot see that the military is going to hell in a hand cart anymore than it ever has in peace time.

By peace time I mean a time when our country is not directly under threat as percived by the voting public.

It has been seen time and again that when the public percives no risk to themselves questions begin to get asked about military spending...hence the government cuts military spending to appease the voting public (for voting public's opinion read "Trashy Tabloids").

After all how can you justify millions on tanks, planes etc when we can't even keep the hospitals clean. All well and good 'till they need us.

What we need is a good old war, or preferably the threat of a big one, bring back the cold war!!!

Ahh what do I know I'm fresh fish

[JessTheDog]

And to my mind, this list of woe has it's roots in one place and one place only - the concept of treating the Armed Forces like it is a business.

How very true - the crux of an excellent post!

It works the other way as well. The business sector has embraced what it sees as a quasi-military leadership ethos, grounded in "targets" and a dynamic results-now leadership science that is viewed as the most important discovery since the spherical nature of the Earth was established.

It's all cobblers! Military leadership calls for a significant investment in terms of trust, time and resources that is completely contrary to the short-term climate embraced by the business sectorand now by the military. Witness the collapse of organisations such as the Post Office. The military is heading the same way. Ironically, the skewed image of a military ethos that never really existed has now come full circle!

Melchett - I think I visited the "Blue Toun" in your time frame. Do you have any recollections of that fine place - like the infamous alcohol-fuelled Children in Need night?

[LoeyDaFrog]

Melch,
Others have said it much better than I, but top post nonetheless.

[LoeyDaFrog]

Melch,
Others have said it much better than I, but top post nonetheless.

[trap one]

Melchett
For too long this festering sore that has been corrupting the forces has sat with just a few people seeming to recognise it and voicing their opinion about it, being ignored.
Sadly I too believe that we’ve gone too far and that there is no top cover from our lordships, and don't expect any of them resign in protest over anything in the foreseeable future.
I think that a corporate image is OK but prefer tradition and values that hold our people as our second priority after winning the war. Winces, as Dark Blue and Brown types tell us that we haven't been around long enough.

Hate to be classed as old git stuck in the past, but when you see lads and lasses doing 9-5 and not willing to do anything but what the TOR's tell them to. Then compare them to the same lads and lasses, who are put down in the middle of a sand tray with a 12x12 and left to get on with it. It demonstrates that the sprit of "Can Do" and "We will not be defeated" is still part of the UK forces. It just seems a shame, that we then bring them back to UK we shaft them with extra duties because the war/police action/NATO Peace Keeping, was only a det and we haven't got the man power to keep it going any other way. Also we seem as a nation to want to shaft the forces in other ways. There is a thread about 5 star hotels and fleets staying in them, going on at the moment.
We experience this type of money and financial miss management daily. For example the RAAF exchange peeps on my fleet used to get the full $65 a day when they flew in support of UN Ops over BH. We as a fleet in N Italy got more money than the guys in S Italy, the Guys and Gals in CAOC got even more than we did. Lets stop individual peeps stopping money or giving extra money. You go to a theatre and you get this money, stop the phone cards, get phones in that are free to the UK and local rate after that to who ever and when ever. Don't argue about numbers of phones and numbs of peeps, just put in extra phones. While I'm at it ask BT to do it for free, how many people would stay with BT if they supported us in the field.

I ramble, but my belief is that as a service, we no longer have people giving orders to make things happen. We have to work inside PC, HSE and Political limitations that include Geneva Convention and legal nightmares of ROE (Good if it means if I end up the wrong side of the line, I'll get my little pink body back home at the end of it). Bad if I get court-martialled for killing some nasty type, who was about to kill somebody by driving a car at them and I had only a split second to figure out if they could get away, or I could stop them by shooting the nasty.

We have people at the top saying I want this to happen and all the way down to the front line we have people saying "you can't do that according to the rules/book" rather than trying to find a clause that says there is a way to do something. Same as the station Budgets, a good idea if the staish could spend the money as he needed it, how many times has the budget manager had to spend loads at the last minute to prevent losing money next year. Therefore the managers can't let the troops get on with the job after a comprehensive brief, they have to stand there and most times long screw driver or micro manage everything because to c)&k up will ruin their career.

No I don't believe the light is any where near the end of the tunnel, in fact it probably is a Git with a torch bring more work. So I am leaving and I will miss the Tradition, some people (high and low) and the challenge of doing such a demanding job in sometimes great living conditions and some time a right p hole, but not the PC HSE and rest.

So therefore Melchett I remove my hat and bow to you you've hit the nail right square on its head.

Turbs

How about this, every O starts as an AC and experiences the life/job, then if they meet the qualities and standards not just as Aircrew/ATC/Admin/Rock but as supervisor, man manager or LEADER etc they are made NCO and when they have got CR or equivalent then we make them an Officer. But if they fail then we keep them in the job not set age ceilings, and if the guy or gal wants to stay in the job then make them permenant NCO, i.e SNCO pilots etc.

Bring back Squadrons commanded by SL's groups led by Gp Cpts and a cut back in *'s to 1 each for commands, and 1 at the top. Seem to remember that the IAF is commanded by a 2*.

An Teallach

I believe that you have something as we haven't been up against a serious threat since the end of the Cold War and the last threat the UK faced in the air that was serious abut fighting IMHO was Korea. But, and this is a big but should we loose then a lot of boys and galls aren't going to be coming home and that will not be nice. "Train as you mean to fight" remember that one "the object of war is to get the other countries men to die for their country not our men" with apologies to the people concerned to the jumbling of their quotes. I don't want to see UK forces in the situation that the lack of money and hence equipment or training has allowed people to die. Even if it does prove that they were wrong and we were right.

[truckiebloke]

not sure if anyone else has said this, but we always keep saying yes to every job, every ask, with our hierachy seemingly not telling the whole truth up the chain. Maybe this is for their own promotion - but i think everyone knows what i am talking about - when we get visits from high rankers, the cracks are covered and they are told that everyone loves their job and that they are happy. Our boss for example told a certain air rank that '' the boys cant get enough and want more!!'' i'm certain we dont.

Our equipment is substandard in many areas due to lack of money, with us lacking DAS on certain airframes(i shall say no more) or what we get doesnt work how it is meant to.

i feel that it is only when we start saying no that questions will be asked. There are alot of unhappy people around, and the simple answer is to walk with your feet... however not so simple to do, as we all know.

oh and nicely put melchett!

[practicepan]

Apparently the light at the end of the tunnel has been switched off due to budget cuts!!!

A cheap gag I know but its the way we all feel right??

[BEagle]

Second row up, first on the left is a key labelled 'Shift'. Do have a go with it when you're not rotting in your tent, Truckiebloke....

[LoeyDaFrog]

I remember chewing the fat once with my Wg Cdr boss (who knew that Wg Cdr was as far as he was going, because he had pissed off those that did the promoting by actually standing up and shouting when he had to) about the sense of an upcoming operational sqn deployment, since many of the crews had serious concerns about the 'new and improved' version that british waste of space were so chuffed about (like the HUD turning itself off 1/2 a second or so after rotate). My comment was alone the lines of 'I guess the only way someone will listen to the crews is if the worst happens and they are brought home in bags' His reply was simply 'True. Shameful, but true'
Many people have given views and sentiments that I share, I can see what is going on around me, and I despair! But I shall not allow myself to be the one to let it break, because my mum and dad taught me about professional pride and the SNCOs I have been lucky enough to work with taught me about esprit de corps.
No-one, be they Joe Public or Politician / Minister will really care about us until it all goes wrong or people in uniform are killed. It leaves a nasty taste of realism in the mouth that I find very hard to stomach, but like my Wg Cdr said - True

[WE Branch Fanatic]

Perhaps this might be of interest?

An older thread (http://pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=111156&highlight=media)

There has to be a way of educating the public.....

[buoy15]

Melch my bonny lad - what a beauty!

Perhaps you should write Bliars appraisal report for last year - come to think of it, who does write his report?:hmm:

Love many, Trust a few, Always paddle your own canoe!

[LoeyDaFrog]

WEBF,
Nice reminder old boy, shame we seem to go round and round in ever shrinking circles. When was this from again DEC 03!!! Alos looks like a few prunners out there saw the writing on the wall for what it really was - a chance to take another axe to an already weakened and overstretched organisation

[4Greens]

The most important way to achieve some results in this arena is for all Services to bury their own differences and put a single case forward. The political machine is greatly assisted by "divide and rule".

[Ali Barber]

Many years ago, when station budgets first reared their ugly head,I questioned how the performance indicators were ever going to work. The main performance indicator for an armed service is "how many people did you kill last year?" So if we don't have a decent war we will not have performed well and our budgets will be cut.

Ah, now I see what happened!

[hyd3failure]

Does anyone here think that the future is bright? (Not orange) Certainly in the RN we are looking forward to the future.

Future Navy is a very exciting programme which will see the RN blend our capibilities and will be optimised for mission success across the full range of military tasks.
Future Navy will provide task configured maritime capabilities to contribute to the differing scales of effort defined in policy guidance.
We are also working towards delivering global reach and presence with afloat and shore-based sustainability, generating persistence to operate in a decisive manner or make a significant contribution to campaign success.

OK, that may all be management speak but the things that matter to me on the front line is equipment and people.

As far as equipment goes, we recently brought into service the worlds best ASW helicopter which is certainly proving its worth. As for Fixed wing, well we have started to select the pilots of the future who will fly the JSF. The introduction into service of HMS Queen Elizabeth and HMS Prince of Wales are major events for this country. It will have been well over 40 years since this country has operated Aircraft Carriers which will have the ability to fly continuously for weeks rather than days.
As for the secret world, well HMS Astute, HMS Ambush and HMS Artful, all new Astute class SSN's are being built in Barrow. Amphibiosity (how do you spell that?) is important and we have recently accepted HMS Bulwark and Albion and these all form part of a great plan which includes the new Bay class landing ships.
HMS Mersey is here which is the 3rd of the new river class. Not forgetting of course what will undoubtedly be the worlds most advanced Destroyer. The Type 45 is a world beater and will significantly enhance the war fighting capibilities of the RN.

So, whats the problem? Well we are desperately short of manpower. My squadron is gapped about 35% which is why we are keeping the FRI. But, the manpower problem is being addressed and with luck and some good planning we will be back to normal soon. So, all in all the future of the RN is bright. I like being in the RN. Its a great job, the people are great, the kit is good and I wake up in the morning and look forward to going to work and flying. For those of you who don't have that feeling when they wake up, perhaps you should have another look at your needs and aspirations. If you don't like the services then please leave, BUT don't harp on about how bad it is when actually its great.

woooops, nearly fell orf me soapbox there.

[BEagle]

"And that speech can be heard again later tonight on BBC2."

[hyd3failure]

Do you think I should sell it to them?

[bluntie]

I haven't looked at this site in 12 months and it's good to see nothing has changed.

The RAF is going down the pan, ever faster, and the only real answer is to realise that we mere mortals can do nothing about it.

I, for one, have had enough of dets, time away from family etc and, after 22 years, me and my pension are out of here. It's a sad day as I never thought I'd see the day when I PVR'd, but I can't do this anymore. My family comes first.

There never was any light at the end of the tunnel. That was just a rumour!

[glum]

Have these new ships been bought properly? Are they on time and within budget? Are they decked out with the full kit you need, or have bits been removed for cost saving?

I'd be interested to know if it's just us that can't buy things without bending over a barrel...

[airborne_artist]

Have these new ships been bought properly? Are they on time and within budget?

The Government was accused last night (25 Jan 05) of trying to keep secret an £84m
cash lifeline to a troubled shipyard which sits near the constituencies of
Prime Minister Tony Blair and other senior Cabinet ministers.

The timing, coming just months before the
expected election in May, was described by the Tories as "suspicious".

The Ministry of Defence said the money was made available to Swan Hunter so
it could complete a £160m contract for two Royal Fleet Auxiliary vessels
after the yard found it needed more money to complete the job. The MoD also
allowed Swan Hunter to deliver the first ship one year later than planned
in 2006.

An MoD spokesman said: "They [Swan Hunter] under-estimated the engineering
requirement in the design and construction of the ships. We agreed an £84m
contract amendment for the revised programme to fill the technical
deficiencies of the company to take forward the project." He added that the
extra money provided the best value for money for taxpayers.

Jaap Kroese, the yard's owner,
blamed the need for the cash call on late design changes by the MoD. "The
MoD changed the design. The original offer was for entirely different
ships." This was denied by the MoD.

Gerald Howarth, the Conservatives' defence procurement spokesman,
said: "The
Government has won Olympic gold for manipulating conditions for elections
and it is the duty of the Opposition to be suspicious and I am suspicious."

The news was greeted with frustration by defence industry sources. One
said: "Because of the region where Swan Hunter is based, some would argue
that the move has been made for political reasons.

[WE Branch Fanatic]

Funny, because they did nothing to help Appledore Shipyard - although it isn't in (or likely to be in) a Labour constituency. Neither is the constituency next to it, which I live in. Back to Appledore, a few months ago they were competing for the replacement for the Castle class patrol vesels. ONE will supoosedly do the same job as two, despite one being UK based and the other one in the Falklands. How can one ship be in two places at once?

On that note, regardless of how good T45/Astute are, the fact is the numbers of frigates/destroyers/SSNs is being cut. Most of the activities of our Forces are not high intensity warfighting, yet our ability to do lower intensity stuff is being reduced. Additionally the level of protection for high value assets in high intensity ops is reduced. What good are the LPD(R) if they can't be protected by frigates/destroyers/aircraft?

This recent session (http://www.parliament.the-stationery-office.co.uk/pa/cm200405/cmselect/cmdfence/uc45-i/uc4502.htm) at the defence select commitee might help make my point.

And the other Services are experiencing the Governments "small sword. no armour" policy. Consider air defence reductions, GBAD, personnel cuts so they are less people for guard duties, FRES, etc etc etc.

I know of people who on the first night of Telic found themelves driving into Iraq unescorted in unarmoured vehicles, with no radios, no ammunition for their weapons, no body armour......

It's very easy for Blair or Hoon to boost about our offesnsive assets but it's not them taking the risks. Nor are they the ones waiting for bad news, fearing the worst with every phone call, every knock at the door.

Incidentally, how many troops wounded in Iraq have been visited by Blair? None!

[timex]

Would you really want Bliar and his gang visiting you in Hospital?

DON'T THINK SO.

[Lee Jung]

Have these new ships been bought properly? Are they on time and within budget? Are they decked out with the full kit you need, or have bits been removed for cost saving?

The answer to glum's questions is no.

The LPDs have been brought into service having had the hangar and 2 decks of accommodation and office spaces cut. Funding for NVG compatible flight deck removed (T23s done first - BARKING!)

The LSD(A)s had the hangar taken out of the original design as a cost reduction measure.

Result: Ocean is the only amphib platform with hangar and therefore full maintenance facilities, last time I looked we only had one, so what happens if she's in refit etc? Major OC reduction for a paltry cost saving.

However it's lucky we don't have enough helos to operate off shipping at the moment.

No, there is not enough money in the pot and therefore the salami slicing goes on. This is never going to change.

I wish I had an answer but I can't find one, the only way is to stop buying the gold plated solutions for every bit of kit we purchase and to get more savvy when dealing with defence contractors and suppliers. Not easy when so many senior offciers and civil servants join said contractors quickly after leaving the MOD.....

[hyd3failure]

But this is not new is it? In fact those who will remember the 1960's will recall the reaction to having contracts cancelled and by having to make cost cutting measures.

Making cost cuts doesn't make things bad. It has always happened and it will always happen. Thats the nature of the business we are in. If we want to spend a lot of money on 2 new Carriers we have to expect a lot of change to the spec, the costs, the requirement.

Example. When the requirement for a new all dancing, all singing ASW helicopter was written we were still in the habit of chasing the Russians all over the Atlantic. By the time the aircraft entered service the Russians were our friends and indeed some of them had became NATO partners. But change is good, change makes us sharp and keen.

And whilst the requirement changes then so does the spec and so does the cost. Thats not anyones fault. It happens and it will always happen. The only time that cost isn't driven is when procuring COTS. One last example.


The LSD(A)s had the hangar taken out of the original design as a cost reduction measure

OK, the Hangar was removed because we couldn't afford it. We had budgetted £ x and the ships plus Hangars would cost £ x plus z. so something had to go. Options are scrap the whole thing OR go for a cheaper option. So whats wrong wioth that? Thats basic economics. And as for the NVG option....why was it cut. Because there wasn't a requirement. If there isn't a requirement then it doesn't get costed.

[fawkes]

Let me first state that I am a rubber desk johnny, and too cavkhanded and shortsighted to be an aviator - but someone has to stack the blankets.

I am glad that you are so optimistic hyd3. From where I sit I have very little faith that we will ever see the carriers (or the aircraft to fly from them). With borrowing already running to nearly twice the entire annual budget for all government departments, there are no votes in them and they will quietly evaporate after the election.

The lean manning of the new DARING Class frigates may warm the heart of the bean counters but we are going to be very hard pressed indeed to get people way for courses, leave and AT when in home waters and disater relief may be quite tricky when you can land half the ship's company and find that you have fewer than 50 hands. There are pennypinching and politically correct assumptions being made about the ASTUTE class which need not be aired here that also give rise to concern.

The oceans of the world upon which this country still depends so much for trade have become no smaller, but we have ever fewer hulls.

We do still have some of the best trained and best motivated sailors in the world, but we are unmistakably an organisation in decline, and the priorities which determine how decisions are made are frankly unhinged. We are mortgaging our future in dubious PFI deals with industry which ties us into long agreements and laughs all the way to the bank, and at the same time acceping hidden cuts in the form of charges under RAB for "assets"

The chorus about the unclad nature of the Emperor is not whingeing by folk who liked things better inm the good old days, but the anxious murmur of people who think that the driver is asleep at the wheel.

The very best of all three Services is the "can do" attitude demonstrated daily worldwide but nicely summed up by the exchange of signals when HMS AMETHYST escaped the Chinese guns after have been shelled and bottled up in the Yangtse River, limping along oin one shaft at 4 knots:

ADMIRALTY TO AMETHYST

Can you make it to Singapore?

AMETHYST TO ADMIRALTY

Could make it to Portsmouth if ordered.

This is also our greatest weakness. In George Orwell's 1984 the constant refrain of Boxer the carthorse was "I must work harder" The same fate awaits us at the hands of this spendthrift, cynical and illiberal regime - the knacker's van.

[hyd3failure]

Good post and some pertinent points, particularly wrt lean manning. However, they are just management issues and like you say, we'll make it work and it will work just fine. Fortunately we are used to lean manning particularly with the experiences of the T23 and of course Ocean.

I’m sure anyone who has served on a T23 will initially have been taken aback at the level of “chipping in” that has to be done. Store ship, TOW, RAS are all “whole ship” evolutions, which (for the RAF readers) includes Officers – yes guys, the Officers have to store ship…OMG.

But I can say from experience that the level of camaraderie on T23’s is the best I have ever witnessed. Despite its lean manning I would willingly serve on a T23 again (and again) if required.

[Lee Jung]

Hyd3,

I think you finished off the answer to the question:

Have these new ships been bought properly? Are they on time and within budget? Are they decked out with the full kit you need, or have bits been removed for cost saving?

Capability removed
Late
Over budget (plus another 84 mil!)

Your comment about no requirement for an NVG capability on an amphibious platform in both ill-informed and indicative of the lack of knowledge of amphibiosity which pervades 'Fleet'. Tell that to 849 post Telic.

I am scared for the aviation capability of the UK amphib forces, and what would happen if Ocean was unavailable. Especially as the days of the 'available CVS' come to an end.

So where is the light at the end of the tunnel? Our equipment grows ever older (Sea King to 2040 mooted), we are asked to work increasingly harder for a salary which declines in real terms year on year.

As has already been stated, there in not enough money in the pot and defence in not a vote winner and until the Chinese begin to flex their muscles will not be. By then it will be far too late to regenerate UK defence capability.

In the last 4 years I have gradually lost the desire to work for promotion to the upper echelons, believing I could do some good on the way, there is no good to be done, just minimising the decay on a daily basis.

The UK has lost all focus and identity, the future is far from rosy and I fear sharp decline is no more than 5 years away, with increasing borrowing now and the demands of an aging population beginning to tell.

When the rights of the fox are greater than the rights of the individual, something has to change.

[4Greens]

Reference my previous entry of a united stand against the politicians.

A good start would be to agree on a policy of all floating things to be operated by the Navy, all flying to be done by the RAF, and all soldier type things to be done by the Army.

This would mean, inter alia, any carriers would be Navy but its aircraft flown by the RAF. Bye Bye RAF Regiment and Royal Marines - Army specialists to do this. Millions saved and a united service front!

[hyd3failure]

It seems sad that life over at Zulu is as poor as that. Certainly, life at Yankee is upbeat, bright and we are looking forward to the future. Maybe you should bite the bullet and cross the road to utopia.

Wuld you do me the honour of responding to each point seperately.



Your comment about no requirement for an NVG capability on an amphibious platform in both ill-informed and indicative of the lack of knowledge of amphibiosity which pervades 'Fleet'. Tell that to 849 post Telic. Apologies I didn't see the requirement. Do you have a copy of the paperwork? Nope. Thats because an SOR hasn't been raised. And why not? because there isn't a requirement.

I am scared for the aviation capability of the UK amphib forces, and what would happen if Ocean was unavailable. Especially as the days of the 'available CVS' come to an end.

What about Albion and Bulwark? What about Largs Bay, Lyme Bay, Mounts Bay, Cardigan Bay. What with thiose and Ocean that must amount to a very expensive and capable amphibious force.... So what do we do without Ocean...? Well, we do exactly what we did prior to 1999. How did we cope without Ocean? The RN haven't operate4d an LPH for some considerable time prior to 1999 so how did we cope prior to that?



So where is the light at the end of the tunnel? Our equipment grows ever older (Sea King to 2040 mooted), we are asked to work increasingly harder for a salary which declines in real terms year on year.

Our equipment grows older????? What about Merlin? Apache ? MRA4 ? Ruler class, river class....do I need to go on..?



As has already been stated, there in not enough money in the pot and defence in not a vote winner and until the Chinese begin to flex their muscles will not be. By then it will be far too late to regenerate UK defence capability. Concur. But I think the chances of the UK having to take on the might of China singlehandledly is remote.
In the last 4 years I have gradually lost the desire to work for promotion to the upper echelons, believing I could do some good on the way, there is no good to be done, just minimising the decay on a daily basis. Your'e not trying hard enough. The UK has lost all focus and identity, the future is far from rosy and I fear sharp decline is no more than 5 years away, with increasing borrowing now and the demands of an aging population beginning to tell. Rubbish. You watch, as soon as England win Euro06 the feel good factor will regenerate this country

[Maxallup-Master]

Melch,

Spot on! :ok:

[insty66]

h3f

As an aside it was euro 2004. In 2006 it will be the world cup (football)and is in Germany "der weltmeistershaft" I think, and even as an Englishman I don't think that a home nation winning it would send waves of euphoria sweeping the British isles.
Now please put your fishing gear away and go and enjoy a tot of pussers:ok:


edited because wine affects my spooling

[Dr Unken B Ligerant]

Melch, absolutely spot on; couldn't agree more.

Fawkes, don't have any experience of what life is like for you in dark blue, but seems it can't be great either.
By the way, I think Boxer was in Animal Farm; 1984 was the novel when Big Brother was always watching you.... well, either him or some pedantic t**t like me!!;)