Wraf Abuse!

[norvenmunky]

http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30000-1168285,00.html

Geezus, the other half must be real mingers!

[caspertheghost]

But they all love it really!:ok:

[rivetjoint]

An excellent reply there...just what the service needs to help win public sympathy for all the defence cuts.

[Trumpet_trousers]

It's a man's life in the RAF

..says the caption on the photo - nice to see they appear to have used a photo of a bunch of space cadets though! :ok:

[pohm1]

The report fails to mention that it was the half that was not abused that complained!;) ;)

[Cambridge Crash]

Is there a non sequiter in the argument to revise the system? Had the respondants in the survey attempted to use the extant system, or did they choose not to complain because of other concerns (fear of career reprisals, ineffectiveness of the 'system', or a perception that the incident did not warrant reporting?). It is, nonetheless, a chilling report which will have far-reaching consequences on personnel management within the Services in general and the RAF in particular.

I can hear the usual calls of 'this is PC gone too for!' Grow up guys - we are in the 21st Century and anyone in the Services, and elsewhere, for that matter, should have the right to work and enjoy their life without fear of harrasment (a tenet of the UN Charter (1946), by the way). Let's drop the sad crew-room banter and think how you would feel if it was your wife/girlfriend (if, that is, you have one) that was subjected to such abuse. Not so funny, is it?

CC

[the_grand_dad]

Looks like redress policy will soon be challenged in the high courts

http://www.websitetoolbox.com/tool/post/yone_manning/vpost?id=277373

It is worthy of note that whilst people experience unacceptable behaviour, the majority tolerate it and do not complain especially because they feel it will not be taken seriously or will effect their career.
That factor is about to be tested in the court, with members of the Armed Foerces planning to appeal for a judicial review of the MoD redress procedures, which they claim have allowed a culture of bullying and abuse to take hold in all three services. One member of the paratroop regiment is to make a catalogue of claims that he was abused and bullied into leaving the Army.
Butt the crux of his complaint to be served in legal papers this week will say that his real problems began when he complained

[An Teallach]

Norvenmunky, casper and pohm

Sexual harassment rarely has anything to do with sexual attraction and everything to do with the abuse of a power relationship and bullying. The bully merely uses matters sexual as the weapon rather than violence or the threat of violence.

It does the RAF no credit whatsoever and the need to be rid of it has sod all to do with being PC and everything to do with civilized respect for colleagues.

As to 'mingers', I suggest you grow up. You will eventually learn that beauty is indeed in the eye of the beholder. After all, one of the sexiest women in the world is a 67 year old granny: http://www.askmen.com/women/singer/27c_tina_turner.html just as the reputedly sexiest man in the world is also a senior citizen (Shir Shean Connery).

[Training Risky]

What a load of pious, uptight nonsense!

I think some on this thread are taking themselves too seriously. I have been in the military (full-time) for approx 5 years, and I have seen no scope for harassment of any kind.

NOBODY tolerates it, I repeat NOBODY. EVERYONE knows their rights these days, from the hairiest chiefs right down to the spotty 16 year-old school leavers.

If you can't have a little black humour here and there, what can you have?

[the_grand_dad]

I have been in full time for over 17 years. I have seen good honest humour but I have also seen huge amounts of abuse of rank, mainly by Officers. and then the abuse of power to cover it up. so lets not think we live in the a world where It never happens.

[DK338]

Interesting views here.

I have just completed 22 years in the RAF and believe me I have witnessed in my time some unspeakable acts of bullying and harrassment.

As a young LAC I witnessed females sexually harrassed by lecherous SNCOs and work colleagues; these young girls didn't know who to turn to half the time, were scared sh!tless of the perceived repurcussions, and so simply left. Even in my basic training our Flight JNCO used to roll into the block sh!tfaced after the NAAFI shut and throw his weight around. Nobody said anything because it was all too difficult and after all we were just trainees so who would believe us anyway?

Organisations like the Armed Forces have always unwittingly allowed some of the misfits of society to hide and wreak whatever emotional havoc they can on the vulnerable by virtue of their superiority in rank. Yes things are changing and people do know their rights better but astonishingly there are still large numbers of people in authority who pay lip service to the whole EO/E&D thing. You only have to read some of the bleatings on these fora to see that, and disgustingly it seems that the majority of posters are currently serving commissioned officers!

I myself have been victim of an officers 'wit', he regretted it very quickly when I redressed him and won. However I know it stuffed up my career and the whole nasty experience altered my outlook on the Service permanently, it changed my perspective and destroyed any enthusiasm and loyalty I once had so I have now gone.

Yes things are improving but remember what may be black humour or banter to one may be something very different to an other. Get with the programme gentlemen, this is serious stuff and not for flippancy. Some of the comments here have no place in a modern RAF.

[littleme]

Seriously agree with An Teallach, it seems a fair few people need to grow up around here. :*

Great advertisement to any females out there thinking of joining the RAF in particular, doubt there'd be any at all if they read the original article! Makes my blood boil! :mad:

[joe2812]

People think Tina Turner is one of the sexiest women in the world? :yuk:

[SRENNAPS]

I think a lot of people need to grow up around here.
PC Harassment has be come a Convenient excuse for those that cant hack banter. AND MARK MY WORDS THATs ALL IT IS: BANTER, JOKES, TAKING THE PISS, HAVING A LAUGH. We all do it, females, coloured, disabled. Its those that cant take it that moan.

Message for you DK388 - I would love to know where you have be stationed - "lecherous SNCOs", "officers 'wit', he regretted it very quickly when I redressed him and won".
Come on, have you been serving in the IRAQI air force for the last 22 years. You make it sound like a regime that i certainly have not witnessed.
It sounds like to me that you really could not join in the banter and you hated everybody else that did.

I have been in the RAF for 28 years, I have been around the world several times, been to war twice (In two different countries) and spent a total of 12 years away from my wife and family.
In that time i have serverd with females and coloureds of all ranks and i have found them totally enthusiastic and not full of the harrassment hatred that some would like us to believe.

My daughter is joining the mob soon and I am really proud that she is doing so. I also know that she has a wit and a humour that will carry her through with no problems. If I was scared that she would be abused, harrassed or what ever, do you think I would let her join.

On a final note, I am a Welsh man and constantly have to put up with the "BANTER" of English men taking the P??SS out of me.
Is that harrassment or PC acceptable at this moment in time.

The minute I get serious about somebody taking the mickey out of me and my sheep mates, is the minute that I will get quite worried.
The military have to be full of black humour and banter - its what gets us through the hard times in life. And we are all in it together. (except those that dont play their part of course).
.

[An Teallach]

Srennaps

Believe me, I would be the first to rage against the PC brigade. However, I would suggest that there is a huge gulf between banter or 'avin' a larf and sexual harassment.

This thread is about the latter. Calling a Taff (or, indeed a Jock - yes, it has happened to me too, many times) a sheepshagger is one thing. Sexual harassment is quite another.

[bird99]

Hey, for what it's worth banter's what makes the air force. creeping PC-isms drive me up the wall. I can banter as well as most (although obviosuly hindered by learning some of my worst banter from the Marines!). I think we need to be able to take more than the average girlie - we might be anywhere in the world alongside other services and other people and we might be being shot at (I have been).

No problem.

I have also had one flt cdr attempt to rape me twice and had one sqn cdr rape me. I was younger and less wise, and didn't report anything because I (misguidedly) thought my career mattered more. All water under the bridge - thankfully - now but don't you ever confuse banter with nasty violent sexual abuse which is still a feature of the RAF (no it's not just the Army). If you don't understand the difference, you need to have a long hard think.

[caspertheghost]

I think this article should be taken with a pinch of salt, as should most articles written by those "in the know" about HM Forces. It all depends on what you call sexual harrassment, for example is telling a blonde joke harrassment? I would say no, but to whoever made the survey it probably counts as such.
Despite my light hearted comment above I would hate to think that anyone in the forces is subject to real harrassment, though I'm not so naive to pretend that people aren't bullied somewhere in their jobs. I've shown this article to a couple of girls I work with and they both laughed and dismissed it as sensationalist propaganda.
But then again, an article on the forces just getting on with their jobs in a professional manner just doesn't make headline news these days.

[SRENNAPS]

Ah Teallach

WHY???? is it different.

20 years ago it was totally acceptable to watch "Love Thy Neighbour" now it is not.
In another 20 years I will be able to take an english man to court for harrassing me.
Think man, and think further than the PC world that we live in.

If sexual harracement was a real problem I am pretty sure that you would not see all the female RAF personnel enjoying themselves in the NAFFI, Skyways, SGts and Officers Mess. And from where I sit they still do. LETS PUT THIS PROBLEM INTO PERSPECTIVE.

[An Teallach]

Srennaps

See above post from bird99. That's why it's different.

'Nuff said.

[BigginAgain]

bird99. You have my deepest sympathy but it saddens me to think you felt unable to take the appropriate steps.

WRT the 'survey' I wonder what sort of results would be obtained if it had been carried out in another male-dominated section of society such as a large bank, newspaper, or a football club? I am also intrigued by the general nature of the statement from Sky News. In typically vague manner, the original article stated that

Out of a survey of 2500, over 1000 were 'sexually harassed':

Most of them were said to have been groped or subjected to sexually explicit remarks or gestures
So over 500 were:

subjected to sexually explicit remarks or gestures


Once? Twice? Degree of seriousness? What is a sexually explicit remark? What constitutes harassment "Would you like to come out for a drink with me?"?

There is also no mention of the time period to which the survey applied. Ask an SAC if they have been shouted at unfairly in the last 5 years, the answer is probably going to be yes; haven't we all had group bollockings?

Now I am not suggesting that sexual harassment or bullying is acceptable, but I work in very close proximity with men and women from LAC up to wg cdr, and I genuinely do not believe that the problem is endemic in my part of the Service, despite what the article implies.

It is easier now than ever before to talk to someone about a problem you are having with an individual or group of individuals if you believe you are being bullied or harassed, but this brings me on to another point:

WE ARE AN ARMED SERVICE.

Being told to do something you don't want to do or don't like doing does not constitute harassment or bullying. Being punished informally for a misdemeanour (eg turn up late for work, your 'turn' to hoover the crewroom). Being shouted at for being somewhere you shouldn't be (or not being somewhere you should), is not bullying.

Some of our people are joining the RAF (and I dare say the other Services) with completely the wrong impression of what to expect, and I don't believe that the initial trg they get helps.

[Now a 'J' Bloke!!]

This thread is about the latter. Calling a Taff (or, indeed a Jock - yes, it has happened to me too, many times) a sheepshagger is one thing. Sexual harassment is quite another.

Hi Gang;

Now that is as racist as the obvious ones...and I'm a Jock too an I can laugh it all off...

We have a female in the office..we appreciate her professionalism an treat her as such...doesn't stop the banter...and it is reciprocated too....

Banter is fine...bullying is not..99% of us banter just like we do on PPrune...

Regards to Most;
'J' Bloke:ok:

[SRENNAPS]

An Teallach

Quote: I have also had one flt cdr attempt to rape me twice and had one sqn cdr rape me

If this is true report it to the police!!!!!

Somehow I find it hard to beleive that bird99 has been raped by the SENGO and JENGO of a sqn and the lads of the Sqn have done nothing about it.

If I am wrong I apologe tyo you personally Bird99, but these are serious alegations.

If true I will eat my hat and leave the life I love with discust. If False - well wot can I say!!!!!

[An Teallach]

Srennaps

Time to put the whisky bottle down and go to bed, old chap.

Bird99

I'm so sorry that you will have read some of the comments on here.

[SRENNAPS]

An Teallach

Thanks for that mate, nice responce.
Look forward to meeting you one day on detachment.
Lots of rgds

[joe2812]

Not being in the services I can't comment (only an 18-year old wannabe), but this thread has deteriorated into a war of words between two people who would happily accept the same idea.

Sexual harrassment will never be right, in any place under any circumstances. The more PC things become, the more likely you are to get in the sh!t for some harmless comment.

Times have changed, get over it... offer support to those who have the balls to tell you if their being picked on, and think before you speak. Whats funny to you isn't necessarily funny to the person it's being aimed at.

Being someone who was bullied when younger (and who is unfortunately half Welsh), it's not always easy to see the funny side, not when everyone around you is singling you out.

[bird99]

SRENNAPS

No offence - what I said was true (it's well below me to make anything like that up). Some very good people did try to encourage me to take things further but, as I said, I didn't feel I could at the time. I wish your daughter all the best - I'm certainly not trying to scaremonger - but maybe remember that any workplace has its problems and assuming she'll be fine doesn't give her much room to tell you if it's not.

An Teallach

Thanks.

PS Please don't imagine I'm some delicate type who can't take banter - believe me I'm all for it.

[SRENNAPS]

Bird99
Thanks for that, i appreciate your thoughts a great deal.
The RAF is a wonderful place to be in with the opportunities it offers. I relish the thought of my daughter joining and the oppurtunities of life and fun that she will enjoy.
And you are right - all workplaces have their problems, but I do believe that my daughter will have a greater life of fun in the RAF then a job elewhere.
We are not a bunch of sexuaul harrassing morons (even when we have drunk out of the whiskey bottle) - we just enjoy what we have got and have a good laugh.

[keepin it in trim]

I worked with female personnel throughout my career in the service and never found that either they or the vast majority of those working with them had any problem identifying the boundary between banter and inappropriate behaviour. Quite often if there was a problem they were quite prepared to resolve it themselves.

I therefore had the somewhat naive view that this problem didn't exist in this day and age. This was destroyed when one of my female personnel made allegations of serious sexual assault, by an officer, to me. Despite initial reluctance on her part, after speaking with female officers, she was persuaded to allow a formal investigation to go forward. The opinion of P&SS, which I completely believed, was that they felt her story was genuine.

The outcome of this was probably less than satisfactory for everyone involved, what it did do was shake me from the cosy view that "this can't happen now". Believe me, it does happen and when you encounter it, it shocks you to the core.

[Capt.KAOS]

Secret report shows shocking scale of bullying and abuse. Urgent call for Hoon to act on scandals in the services
By Francis Elliott, Deputy Political Editor

23 January 2005

Almost half of all women serving in the Royal Air Force have been sexually harassed, according to an internal report obtained by The Independent on Sunday.

The official research, carried out last year but kept secret, indicates that more than 1,000 women are currently enduring or have suffered sexual harassment in the past 12 months.

Victims are typically harassed by two or more male servicemen of a senior rank, the survey found. Most of the victims had been groped or subjected to sexually explicit remarks or gestures, but only half of them complained.

Most worrying for service chiefs is that the survey found that sexual harassment had increased since a similar report three years ago.

It concluded that "whilst people experience unacceptable behaviour, the majority tolerate it and do not complain especially because they feel it will not be taken seriously or will affect their career".

The secret research is revealed after a week in which the conduct of the British Army has been under intense scrutiny as three soldiers face a court martial for allegedly abusing Iraqi detainees.

The survey shows that bullying of both sexes is also widespread in the service: the RAF's own figures suggest more than 3,000 of its staff have been targeted within the past 12 months. The RAF has a total staff of 46,350, of whom 6,300 are women.

The findings of the survey mirror those of a similar report carried out in the Army. That survey found that nearly 90 per cent of soldiers believed bullying was taking place in the ranks.

The extent of bullying in Britain's armed forces came to light recently after a series of investigations into the suspicious deaths of four recruits at the Deepcut army barracks.

Geoff Hoon, the Secretary of State for Defence, was called on last night to take urgent action to force the armed forces to institute "fundamental reform" of its complaints system to protect victims.

Paul Keetch, the Liberal Democrats' defence spokes-man, whose questioning forced the Ministry of Defence to release its research, said: "These figures raise grave questions about the level of bullying and sexual harassment in the service. The RAF must urgently institute fundamental reform of the complaints system, which is profoundly inadequate."

Speaking to The Independent on Sunday yesterday, one superior officer. "My complaint was investigated by a man who was in effect our boss, and the strong impression was that this was a case of senior ranks protecting themselves. I was transferred to another unit where I was ostracised to the extent that I eventually had to leave the base.

"The RAF is a small world and I knew that this would follow me wherever I went. So after 11 years I was forced to leave, while the sergeant about whom I had complained was promoted."

Ms Brumfitt, backed by the Equal Opportunities Commission (EOC), was eventually awarded £30,000 after an industrial tribunal found that she had been victimised for making her complaint.

In a second case backed by the EOC, Flight Lieutenant Padraigin Byard won damages after a tribunal heard evidence that her male crew had placed a bounty on her head for the first to have sex with her.

In a scathing judgment in the 31-year-old's favour, the tribunal stated: "We heard too many instances of senior officers with sexist views which have no place in an organisation committed to equal opportunities and which are quite frankly illegal."

The figures for the number of women suffering sexual harassment over the past 12 months were extrapolated from responses to a survey stated in the document, A Summary of Extended Analysis of 2003 Sexual Harassment, Sexual Discrimination and Bullying Survey.

An MoD spokesman said: "Part of the reason for carrying out these surveys is to establish the extent of any problems and what needs to be done to address them."



LINK (http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/legal/story.jsp?story=603793)

[Training Risky]

Flight Lieutenant Padraigin Byard won damages after a tribunal heard evidence that her male crew had placed a bounty on her head for the first to have sex with her

This seems familiar! Is this is the person who left ISK and the kipper fleet under a cloud. I have heard a few rumours: Got chopped for capacity....didn't like it....claimed sexual harassment....marrried a sqn ldr....who happened to be PTC Equal Ops coordinator (or something like that)....AOC makes a badly timed joke at a dining-in night..........................................HEY PRESTO = tribunal + damages!

Can anyone confirm or deny the ravings of this madman?

[allan907]

From today’s paper:

She might have a French movie star on her arm but that doesn’t stop Kylie Minogue from having a perve at other blokes.

The pint-sized pipette told a Melbourne radio station that if a good-looking sort “walks into your vision” she can’t help but notice.

“When something catches your eye, you just happen to be looking that way and someone walks into your vision, it’s not that you look at them, they have gatecrashed your vision, your frame of focus”, she said.

From a mythical RAF disciplinary report:

I strenuously deny any allegations of sexual harassment. SACW Bloggs merely walked into my vision and I couldn’t help but notice.


Spot the harassment and double standard.

Seems that there has to be a system to stop the vexatious reporting for those that confuse good natured banter with genuine sexual harassment. As the previous poster has pointed out "hell hath no fury like a woman scorned" and there may well be more to the story than at first seems. However, by the time that the facts are out somebody's career/life has been well and truly done over.

Bird99 2 attempted rapes by a flt cdr and one actual rape by a sqn cdr??? And you didn't report it??? Whilst you have my utmost sympathies if true, one would have to severely question your judgement by a willingness to let 2 rapists remain at large in a tight knit organisation that relies on teamwork.

[crossbow]

Being punished informally for a misdemeanour (eg turn up late for work, your 'turn' to hoover the crewroom). Being shouted at for being somewhere you shouldn't be (or not being somewhere you should), is not bullying.

Good God man. What sort of beast are you. "Being Punished informally" what on earth is informal punishment....sounds like bullying at its most horrid to me... How do you informally punish someone?

[BEagle]

Hmmm - "Being Punished informally"... Not too dissimilar to those other kangaroo courts of 'administrative action' which, even though making false, slanderous and libellous allegations and using trumped-up evidence which would frankly make the Stasi blush, still perpetuate in the military? 'Evidence' which those involved may be allowed to read, but are strictly forbidden to copy in order to assist with their own defence? 'Evidence' which, even disproven, will not dissuade the martinets from their chosen paths - "Don't tell me things that are inconvenient for me - even if they are true".

Still, perhaps I'll catch Kylie's eye. So long as she doesn't mind me discretely admiring her bum!

[BigginAgain]

Crossbow

I am not suggesting kangaroo courts or anything of the sort!!!!!

If someone comes in late for work there are officially 2 options:

1. Charge them. On the record. Commented on in ACR. Puts promotion back x years. Costs masses of money to administer, and costs the individual £000s.

2. Do nothing.

How about, when it comes to having to go and grit the paths in the cold or go and empty the bins, the person who is chosen is the one who couldn't get out of their pit. Someone's got to do it, why not the one who missed part of the shift and had other members of the team cover for them?

If I was late for work, I sure know which I'd prefer, and my own experience suggests that this is what most people prefer. It is important, though, to realise that persistent 'offenders' do need to be dealt with more formally.

.

[glum]

"Informal punishment"

To me means a punishment administered locally which doesn't blot your copy book - something for a cock up not worthy of a charge. Been on the receiving end of a couple and they did their job. (I took tools and forgot to tag them, 'volunteering' for a Christmas guard duty taught me the lesson, and stopped me being tech charged - the other alternative on offer.)

As a SNCO now though, I cannot punish anyone - and they know it. So, no matter how small the transgression (late, rude, lazy, etc) I have nothing below a chage to reprimand the offender. Daft.

[hyd3failure]

How about, when it comes to having to go and grit the paths in the cold or go and empty the bins

That sounds awfully like bullying and harrassment to me. You have to rememer that you need to treat everyone fairly and equally. So, if one guy is late and you send them out to mow the lawn as an "informal punishment" then the next day if someone else is late you also have to send them out to mow the lawn !!! But, the lawn is already cut and so instead you send them out in the cold and wet to grit the road.

Thats where the problem starts. You have discriminated. You have had two people commit similar offences but they have been given different punishments. Thats why you cannot conduct your own "informal punishments".

:ok:

[BEagle]

Having a sly look at the bottom of Miss Minogue is one thing - blame the hormones. Same goes for the pin ups of Tom Jones in the cleaner's batcave!

But if what bird99 says is true - and I've no reason whatsoever to doubt her - then that is an ENTIRELY different thing. She must speak to someone URGENTLY as these perverted bullies may still be at large.

I fervently hope that she has been able to overcome the awful trauma she must have experienced.

[hyd3failure]

Whilst my experience of Bullying and intimidation is nowhere near the experience of Bird99, when I joined it was "normal" procedure to organise an initiation ceremony. I was stripped naked, tied to a desk and my body was painted with food colouring whilst the rest of the team cheered and laughed. That was a long time ago but was considered perfectly normal.

[glum]

Hyd3 says:

'You have had two people commit similar offences but they have been given different punishments. Thats why you cannot conduct your own "informal punishments".'

Are you taking the pith? Would you have had them both charged then? Bit severe! Why can't the SNCO, with the experience he has and the training given, use his loaf to administer a small punishment? Are we so PC these days that someone of 20 years experience is not qualified to make a judgement call, yet a brand new Officer with just Cranwell behind him is? The spineless lSNCO who defers everything to his boss just in case he can't dish out fair admonishment will have loads of respect from his troops I'm sure.

If you fcuk up, expect a punishment. If you don't like what you're given off the record, opt for a formal punishment instead. Might make emptying the bins seem a good idea though eh?

Blimey.

[hyd3failure]

Why can't the SNCO, with the experience he has and the training given, use his loaf to administer a small punishment?

Because its against the law. The end.


Employment Relations act 1999

[glum]

Then the law is an ass.

What year did we loose the ability to decide for ourselves a course of action appropriate to the matter at hand?

How would you deal with a person who arrived late?

[allan907]

hyd3failure Please read and note what glum has written.

Whilst I really don't want to get personal if you are an example of what the RAF is today then thank God I left in 1993.

PC, whilst in the main having very laudable aims, has unforeseen consequences. Glum has pointed out some. Your path will lead to everyone being charged no matter how trivial. And while my nickname at Wittering was "Charge the bastard H......." I really wouldn't wish your course on anyone.

[hyd3failure]

Hey hey hey....this isn't my fault. I don't write the law. Im sorry guys but thats the way it is. Seeing as you left in 1993 you won't have had the pleasure of being subjected to brief after brief on Equal Opportunities, diversity, equality etc etc etc.


Now, what would I do? Well the one thing I would not do and that is to administer my own form of "informal punishment".
I would use my leadership and management skills to ascertain WHY the chap was late. I would counsel him/her and find out what the problem was. I would then explain why we have to rely on the punctuality of our team in order to get the work done. I would explain that he/her had let the side down and then I would explain that provided I received an assurance that it was a one off event then I would allow them to return to work and forget the matter. Should the person be late again then there would have to be a charge to show them that there is a real need for punctuality.

[althenick]

My old man was a chief in FAA in the 70's. He told me some good advice about punishment when I got my hook up in the RNR, and in summary it was this...

1/ Praise in public - rebuke in private:ok:
2/ If a bloke does something to cause discord amonst his oppo's then let them sort it out:E
3/ If a bloke on your team ain't pulling his wieght then make him SLJR - he can't complain if those tasks are part of the section's remit can he?:ok:

BTW as for lateness - I did a weekend cruise back in 1990. Had a good run ashore Saturday Night (Rothesay!) all of us happy in the knowlege that we were less than 3 hours staeming from the home port. One fella decided to make a night of it and got in tow with one of the local Gargoyles :uhoh: Needless to say said chap turned to the next morning 1 HOUR LATE :ooh: And his punishment was this....

a/ Fined 2 days pay - he'd just worked his weekend for nothing.

b/ a severe picturising from the rest of the crew - Thanks to ship movements on the clyde we were 4 HOURS LATE :mad:

c/ A dose of the RAF from said Gargoyle :D

How that for punishment!

[allan907]

Hyd3failure Thank God.

"Now then chaps... let's all join hands and skip off into the sunset to meet the fairies - tallyho!"

[hyd3failure]

Glad you agree.

[TurbineTooHot]

Hyd3,

I didn't leave in 1993, am still receiving the queen's shilling and have also been to EO, diversity etc briefs ad nauseum.

I however still believe we need the minerals to dish out the odd bo!!ocking and, when called for, administer informal punishment.

Have you never heard of the term "keeping things in house."

Also, your last post does seem fairly binary in its response to incidents. Council - Charge.

Where does the Axminster Shuffle, Severe Listening Too, Hairdrier enter into it? Surely this is another stage in a graduated level of disipline, as reponses befitting the crimes.

Personally would take a cr@p shift or good old 50 push ups/10 laps over charge/1021. I'm sure most of the members of the services would.

Those that wouldn't shouldn't be in the business!

Turbs

[hyd3failure]

welcome to the thread Turbine. Glad to see you agree and are on side.

[opso]

Hyd3; you forgot to mention that it is in your best interests to minute the counselling conversation in the individual's file. A second stage is then open to you - you can write down a bollocking (sorry, direct and succinct counselling), haul them in to your office, read it verbatim to them, hand them a copy, get them to leave and place a copy on their file. You now have an established audit trail for any further disciplinary action in the event they reoffend and, frankly, it shakes them up more than any amount of appealling to their better side about teamwork and focusses their mind on the fact that the behaviour will not be tolerated. After that, you are in to informal and formal warnings and charging them! Just make sure that you have your system and apply it equally to all subordinates, without any hint of favouritism.

[TurbineTooHot]

Hyd3.

Chap, which way are you actually standing on this little side arguement.

I must be too simple to spot if and where the irony lays in your last couple of threads.

Just wondered,

Turbs:hmm:

[4fitter]

Ladies & Gentlemen

Have been in Aunty Betty's flying club rather a long time and am pleased that I have never had to charge anybody. I have, however, heard rather a lot. A large number of the charges I heard could have been avoided through the appropriate use of good leadership or minor sanctions. When I was a lad I was offered extra duties and was grateful that my record remained clean.

The Army have recognised this and from Jan this year they have introduced the ability for NCOs upwards to award minor sanctions to juniors. The new system appears to be well regulated with checks and balances in place. However, the sanctions are administrative and do not blight an individual's record. Offences deemed worthy of minor sanctions include absence from place of duty up to 48hrs, lateness etc etc. If you check the MOD web and search for AGAI 67 you'll find it in Annex C.

As a parting thought you may wish to know that at certain establishments, RAF personnel are subject to giving and receiving minor sanctions under this AGAI.

Time will tell if it will work.

[joe2812]

I would use my leadership and management skills to ascertain WHY the chap was late. I would counsel him/her and find out what the problem was. I would then explain why we have to rely on the punctuality of our team in order to get the work done. I would explain that he/her had let the side down and then I would explain that provided I received an assurance that it was a one off event then I would allow them to return to work and forget the matter. Should the person be late again then there would have to be a charge to show them that there is a real need for punctuality.

Sounds like a waste of alot of man hours to me. Do these 'beastings' and 'bo**ockings' no longer exist in the modern military?

Would someone who was late due to a hangover receive your counselling? Christ... the underlying thing about the military (jn my opinion) is discipline, without it you cannot function effectively. Don't counsel them, rollock them and send 'em out to do something particular nasty to act as a deterrent for next time! If the worst they're going to get is a '...Ok, and you pwomise not to do it again?' then wheres the motivation to be on time a month down the line??

Whilst I understand the point you're trying to make, it also sounds like some people have a very unusual idea of logic.

[buoy15]

Crossbow my Bonny Lad

Don't get too excited, even though you may be on your way to a Burns Supper tonight.

In the good old days, if you made a complete arse of yourself by fighting in the NAFFI, being late for work or getting caught out of bounds, ( or all of them) you were offered the choice of a weeks Key Orderly or being charged with 3 days jankers on your slop chit.

I always chose the former! (informal punishment)

There again, under todays rules, I could elect ( foolishly) for a Court Martial, which I might win, and screw the MOD for some compensation

What do you want - summary punishment - hang them at dawn?

Diplomacy and Tact cost nothing - sadlly today, it's missing, particularly in middle management

Love many. Trust a few, Always paddle your own canoe!

And don't get caught - that's the problem for todays youngsters:ok: