Aircraft Commander

[rivetjoint]

In the RAF is the term "Aircraft Commander" used to describe the person in overall charge of the aicraft, its crew and its mission? Is the AC always a pilot? If you had a brand new Fl Lt Tornado pilot in the front and a Wing Co in the back with 6000 hours would the pilot still be in overall charge?

[heights good]

officially because we are all joint it should be aircraft commander, but he is always referred to as captain.

A pilot is always the captain in everything apart from nimrods (i think, dont quote me though)

[santiago15]

RJ,

The aircraft commander is the guy/girl who signs the F700.

Ref. your Tornado example, I believe the only way the Wg Cdr would be in charge would be if the jet was a twin-sticker and the Wg Cdr was an instructor (pilot) - and he'd signed for the jet.

S15

[BEagle]

Yes - it's "no stick, no vote!"

Except for the kipper fleet, that is.

[Soiled Glove]

Mind you there are quite a few senior officer navigators who like to think that they are the commander (in fleets other than the kipper fleet). I know several cases where senior officer navs were not allowed to fly with junior pilots for that very reason - cross cockpit rank gradient and CRM training don't always mix in my experience - and that's a whole new thread in itself!

[hyd3failure]

Quite different in the Senior Service though. The pilot is always the SUO and will sign the 700. However, the aircraft commander is the Officer who is the most senior.

In practice this will generally mean the guy who is the most experienced on type. The majority of our aircraft commanders are Observers and they also authorise their own sorties as well as command them.

[BEagle]

SUO = Senior Under Officer = GOD

OK - what does it mean in Jackspeak then?

So, RN Pilots have to take it from behind from the Lookers, do they?

As we always thought.........

Re. Senior Officer Navigators, I was once flying with K Rucksack esq when the FMS800 froze, needing the familiar UF21 pull-and-reset re-boot (presumably that's finally been fixed now?). "I'll do it", he said - and disappeared downstairs before we could stop him....

Obviously his competence at such a thing was in line with the rest of his competence - for the next thing I knew was the first pilot's AI failing.... Fortunately the Air Eng sorted things out and everything reset itself.

[hyd3failure]

Specialist User Officer......the guy who signs for the weapons.
So regardless of who locates, identifies, targets and fires the weapon (normally the Observer) the Pilot signs for the weapons.


Take it from behind.... ???? whilst sat next to each other.

[antipodean alligator]

So taking it from behind is too conventional for you pussers is it? Please explain to us mere crabs, how does one go about taking it from beside?:ooh:

[hyd3failure]

pusser ???? pussers are logs officers?

[foldingwings]

BEagle,

Can't agree, old boy!

"no stick, no vote!"

The guy in the back always has a vote! It comes with a black and yellow handle!

An aside. 237 OCU (Buccaneer) once had a student pilot (ex Vulcan) who insisted on opening every conversation with the man in the back with: "Captain to Navigator". Old habits die hard. Didn't last long, I'm afraid!

[BEagle]

Yes - it was first name terms for the crew in a Bucc. I rmember once saying "Nav" by mistake - only to be told that if I was too dim to know the name of the only other person in the crew, then I was probably too dim to fly a Bucc!

We used first names in the '10 until some damn ex V-farce tw@t got into high office - from then on it was crew positions only. Which put CRM back a decade or so.....

[santiago15]

We used first names in the '10 until some damn ex V-farce tw@t got into high office - from then on it was crew positions only

As an aside: Is that still the same on the '10 now? What do other RAF heavy fleets do? Do the big airlines use first names?

[Pontius Navigator]

In the kipper fleet the Captain - front or back was also the mission commander although the Tac Nav was 'in charge' of the tatic.

On teh E3 on the other hand the AC/Captain/Pilot is responsible for the safe operation of the ac but the man who makes the beast work is the MC (US/NATO) or TD (UK).

If the pilot does not do what the TD calls then he may get shot down or have a misison failure on his hands. OTOH if the TD tries to 'hazard' the ac in pursuit of the mission the AC has the casting vote. Quite democratic really.

[Soiled Glove]

'Do the big airlines use first names?'

Don't know what the RAF do, but a mate who flies for QANTAS told me that one of the 'older generation pilots' insisted on him addressing the captain as 'Sir' on the Flt Deck and then proceeded to tell him that it would be informal in the bar in the hotel and then he could call him 'Skipper'!

Allegedly, there is one airline in the Far East where the position on the Flt Deck is determined by the rank you had in the military - ie Captain (who let's say was Flt Lt equiv in Forces) would have to 'respect' the FO if he had been a Wg Cdr!

Most airlines use first names I believe, interesting to know what the RAF/RN do - 'alright Andy, sorry Wg Cdr, I mean Nav, I'll get my hat Sir'

[hyd3failure]

Not sure about the RAF but the RN are all on first name terms....be it a Commander (rare for them to fly) down to a Leading Aircrewman.... First name terms is the order of the day and pretty much has been since Ive been flying

[Dave Ishall]

Must.....keep.....off.....soapbox......

oh bu**er it:

Pilots should always, always be aircraft commanders (captains) and the Nav/AEO/Whomever fraternity should be the mission commanders.

The MR2 world has never understood a/c command and continues to balls up this important issue by endowing Navigators and AEOs with a completely misplaced sense of captaincy. They are and will always be, IMO, simply mission commanders - not aircraft commanders. The E3 manages to do this well - why not ISK?

The proof of the lunacy is in the F700 - does any non-pilot MR2 captain actually understand just what he/she is actually signing for? Similarly, do many pilot captains truly understand the ASW Doppler Loop? Of course not - let the pilots captain and the rest (if they must) command the mission.

Here endeth the soap box lesson.....

[hyd3failure]

memo.....must kick soapbox away from Dave Ishall as he clearly talks complete B****cks when he is on top of it.


Although to give him his due he is clearly talking about MR2 / MPA aircraft.....


However, in the RN fraternity it is clearly the case that the senior guy should be the aircraft commander regardless of whether he has a set of sticks between his legs.

[L1A2 discharged]

Made the mistake of saying in a brief one fine day at an expiremental establishment below the M4 the following: "so I will be in command of the aircraft, the pilot will be in control of flying it ....." said pilot put me straight, as did auth, and crew etc etc ...

[Trumpet_trousers]

......that if the Flight Deck is crewed completely by females it has to be referred to as the box office ? :E

[Strato Q]

Dave Ishall

The MR2 world has never understood a/c command and continues to balls up this important issue by endowing Navigators and AEOs with a completely misplaced sense of captaincy.
Maybe the Maritime community (MR2, RN) has it right, afterall we live in a task orientated organisation. Backend captains in the RAF date back to the 'Battle of the Atlantic' and were introduced by a pilot, Gp Capt Dickie Richardson, who realised that the pilot had minimal input to the mission and to quote:

"The pilot had been little more than a helmsman, though he carried the prestige of Captaincy".

The myth of the pilot being the only one to understand the F700 is false, by the time any Navs reach Captaincy they will have more experience than the 1st Pilot you advocate signs as Captain. They will also receive training on the F700 as part of the 'Captains Course'.

Jump off your soapbox (fall if you have to), and stop over inflating the importance of a Pilot Captain. I have worked with good Pilot Captains and some very poor ones. Let the best person for the job do it and that comes with experience not 2-wings.

As an aside, the first Nav Captain was a Flt Lt Bob Irving, who had a distinguished wartime career, earning a DFC and Bar. Post WW2 he became more famous as an orchestra conductor and film music composer - better known as Robert Augustine Irving.

Ex-Nav Captain

[swampy_lynx_puke]

Strato Q is spot on - it's task orientated.

When I was a DDFF Flt Cdr, I'd normally be captain of the a/c - and for the Light Blue, I'd also be Authoriser for disembarked sorties. However for GH and pilot s%^t sorties I'd make the Pilot captain - he understood the aims of the sortie better. On tactical or nav stuff I'd be a/c captain - same reason.
The a/c captain only has the casting vote in a good CRM crew but gets the benefit of explaining to a stroppy RAF Sgt the intricacies of the relationship between a/c captain, first pilot and authoriser when something goes awry.
"No stick, no vote" phah - I know of one looker who gave his pilot a direct order to return to the ship in order to explain to the real Captain why he was acting like a total t&((£r and contradicting the direction of the observer (and a/c captain). Funny old thing he then did what he was told!

[hyd3failure]

But when you were Flt Cdr of FF/DD and you charged up to the satellite A/F for a bit og GH or launched inot the gloop for some IF....who was the Captain/Commander then...?

[VoicesFromTheCreche]

Hyd3

To quote swampy
"However for GH and pilot s%^t sorties I'd make the Pilot captain"

That's who

Did you get out of the wrong side of bed today? You seem very grumpy on several of these threads, or maybe you aren't "flying your nutz off" today?

[kippermate]

I never had any problems as P1/Capt.

I did the flying. The Tac Nav ran the tactics, with advice from the leads. The Captain (whoever it was) had the deciding vote.

:ok:

[hyd3failure]

thats the problem...I cant believe that whilst he was the Flt Cdr then the Flight Pilot would be captain of the aircraft?

[VoicesFromTheCreche]

Hyd3

Why not? The "seniority" versus experience argument is still quite a grey area as "normally" is very hard to define. Maybe the pilot was a passed over Lt beefer with 3000 hours, but the FC was a newly promoted GL Lieutenant Commander with 500 on type. Best man for the job would be a much better rule of thumb, or even, "how would this go down at a BOI?", which I think is what most Authorisers use.

Oh and no stick no vote would also apply - I'll bet many Obs/Nav Aircraft Commanders out there have had to rein in their "over enthusiastic" Pilots when beating up mum/weddings/totty*. Make the pilot A/C Commander and he carries the can for any misdemeanours at said satellite airfield

* delete as appropriate

[hyd3failure]

Thats a very good point but at the end of the day, the Captain / Commander is (generally) the guy who is most senior. Experience doesn't count a jot. I know its wrong but thats the way it is.

[Thud_and_Blunder]

the Captain / Commander is (generally) the guy who is most senior. Experience doesn't count a jot. I know its wrong but thats the way it is.
Surprising lack of input from the Army Aviation world - the Royal Navy way probably wouldn't work with the officer/NCO combination, particularly when the latter is a beefer. Any word from our khaki friends on how it works in practice these days?

[foldingwings]

Well blow me down, Hyd3, I've just moved from Ouch to here and here you are still banging away at this drum too! Don't you ever give up!? What is your beef with officers, old boy? Tried and failed at BRNC or never tried at all? Which is it?

[hyd3failure]

I don't have a beef with Officers. Ive been one many years now. Jan76 Entry....must be the only sod who joined then still here.

[foldingwings]

Hyd3

Get some time in! Nearly served 30 years have you? Then you ought by now to know when to wind yer neck in and as has been said to you many times here and else where on this forum!

Give it a rest and grow up!

[hyd3failure]

Nope. Im not going to. And besides. Officers of my rank don't wind their neck in.. Winding your neck in is reserved for Midshipmen and subbies...

[MightyGem]

The army fly with two pilots, one of which(obviously) will be the Aircraft Commander. He/she will generally occupy the left hand seat, taking care of the navigation, mission management and weapon firing(Lynx). Unless it's changed, the Pilot can sign the 700, but then he must bring it for the AC to check, so mostly the AC signs. Not sure exactly how they do it in the Apache, but you can probably substitute front seat for left hand seat.

The AC is normally the most experienced of the crew, but not necessarily so. The AC can often be a SNCO and the Pilot a commisioned officer.

[hyd3failure]

That sounds the most sensible way to do it. The only difference is that in the RN the AC isn't a pilot and doesn't have a set of controls.
Whatever your command or service, there seems to be many ways to skin a cat here. Each command/service have their own rules to fit their own circumstances and thats probably the way it should remain.

[FJJP]

Hooray! At last we can agree on something ... harmoniously at long last.

[buoy15]

Operating the Nimrod is very much a full crew team effort -

Captain is there to take the bollocking if anything goes wrong, or the praise when you win something!

I know - my 1st sortie as Capt, I forgot to sign the auth sheet

Happy days!

[Bismark]

As far as I can see the only people who seem to get worked up about captaincy are the taxi drivers, must be an inferiority complex thing. The authoriser should decide who is best placed to be aircraft captain and so nominate at the brief. However it is never as straightforward as that so simple rules are put in place.

In the RN it is generally accepted that the senior chap will be a/c captain as he is normally the most experienced aviator. After all captaincy is about decision making not pole-ing. Captaincy type decisions are normally required when situations change eg diversons, wether changes, emergencies etc the most experienced guy is best placed to make such decisions.

As an ex-RN WAFU I would have no problem with the army situation and accept an NCO pilot as a/c captain if he was best qualified to be so.

Why does the pilot sign the 700? The person who should accept the a/c is the captain of said a/c. All crew should read it anyway.

[hyd3failure]

Good point fella but I have to disagree on one point.
In the RN it is generally accepted that the senior chap will be a/c captain as he is normally the most experienced aviator.

In the RN the a'c Commander is the most senior because of seniority. If one of the guys is a GL/Fishhead whatever you wanna call them, then they may only have a handful of hours BUT they will be the A/C because they are senior. Flying hours, Experience has nothing to do with it. Its all down to seniority.

[Soiled Glove]

Flying hours, Experience has nothing to do with it. Its all down to seniority.

What a load of tosh! flying hours and experience are everything to do with being an aircraft commander and seniority has nothing to do with it.

Using your argument, in the civilian world then the passenger paying the most for their First Class ticket should decide on where and how the aircraft lands!

My stick, my vote (with reasoned argument from others) and yes, I have done my CRM course!

[FORMER PIONEER]

Hyd 3:-
"Flying hours, Experience has nothing to do with it. Its all down to seniority."

That is soooooooo wrong. Experience has everything to do with it. Whilst they are the rules, it is true, when it comes to multi million pound aircraft and flight safety, we should put seniority on the back burner and employ the best man for the job. (Which isn't a Fishead who's only done half of a front-line tour, then swan'd off to drive a mine-hunter....)

[Mad_Mark]

Jeeze guys, read what he is writing.

Hyd3 was replying to a comment from Bismark stating In the RN it is generally accepted that the senior chap will be a/c captain as he is normally the most experienced aviator.

He was correcting a statement that the senior person has more experience, saying that is not necesarily the case. He then STATED the RN position, not necesarily his own.

I read

Flying hours, Experience has nothing to do with it. Its all down to seniority.

as...

RN policy is that flying hours, experience has nothing to do with it. Its all down to seniority.

Or was I reading it wrong :confused:

MadMark!!! :mad:

[hyd3failure]

Ok. An example.

Lieutenant A Bloggs. Fishead, ex OOW completes Flying training does a year as Flight pilot then he is Flight Commander. He has approx 400 hours.

Lieutenant Gazs hand: Joined to fly straight from school. Done 2/3 tours. 1500 hours BUT he is junior to Lt Bloggs.



Of those 2 guys the Aircraft commander would be Bloggs as he is senior. He is less experienced but experience has nothing to do with command.


That sort of scenario is not fiction. It happens all the time. and quite rightly so.

when it comes to multi million pound aircraft and flight safety, we should put seniority on the back burner and employ the best man for the job. That may well be how you feel but sadly its not going to happen. The A/C is the most senior, The End !

[VoicesFromTheCreche]

Well thanks for clearing that up, Mad_Mark!

To quote the rules "In the RN the senior aircrew officer is normally to be the Aircraft Commander"

The grey areas are "senior" and "normally"

Seniority is what Fisheads get excited about for their pecking order in the Navy List.

normally is so grey as to be almost ignorable.

In our experience, the "best person for the job at hand" is usually made the Aircraft Commander - or are we wrong?

[FORMER PIONEER]

So, lets give the responsibility to the least experienced, and let the specialised professional career aviators sit on their hands, 'cos it's not a very important task is it............?

Thank God I'm in a community with very few Fisheads.........:ok:

[VoicesFromTheCreche]

Hyd3

IMHO - claptrap. There are many, many occasions where the most Senior, is not necessarily the best placed to Command, and experience is just one of the factors which must be considered for each sortie.

[Looker]

As a FLOBS and aircraft captain I rarely had any difficulty working amicably and efficiently with the pilots I flew with.

On the rare occasion that the pilot got too confident I found that a couple of minutes of silence would do the trick as he aimlessly piloted around the skies not knowing what the f*%k was really happening.

Having left 4 years ago, done my ATPL's and got a job on a 737 I'm glad to say I've yet to encounter any difficult captains on the flight deck.

By the way we're not pussers or fishheads either :mad:

As for sexual deviation I think you'll find the largest closet located at a Kipper base up North

Looker

[hyd3failure]

Im not saying that the rules we have at the moment are correct or right. But they are the rules... I quote from an unclassifed document.

The Aircraft commander is defined as the aircrew in overall charge of and responsible for.....etc etc etc .

In the RN the senior aircrew officer is to be the aircraft commander.


Thats it. End of dit. Now, I don't always agree with the rule as I agree there are times when experience should dictate who is AC But in th RN its the senior bod who gets to do it.

By the way we're not pussers or fishheads either Yes you are

[Looker]

Might have been 4 years ago, not any more:}

[Strato Q]

As for sexual deviation I think you'll find the largest closet located at a Kipper base up North
I think you will find we cleared our 'closets' years ago.

[hyd3failure]

Once a haddock suede.....always a haddock suede

[Radar Riser]

Just a point, James T Kirk was the captain, yet we didn't see him poling the Enterprise around.

And neither does Jean Luc...........

[Lee Jung]

Haddock suede? Is that like a leather cod, surely you mean Swede sir?

Senior aircrew officer is correct, although the pilot retains the right not to place the aircraft into unnecessary danger (flight safety).

Even if the senior officer is the LHS replacement for a bag of Blue Circle......

[Radar Riser]

Just something I've noticed

James T Kirk was the captain, yet we didn't see him poling the Enterprise around.

And neither does Jean Luc...........:E

And no, I'm not sticking up for back end captains. I've had some very good back end captains. They let the pilots take charge of all the flying and aircraft bits, and they themselves got on with the aircraft's real job, but carry the can if it all goes t*ts.

That's how it works on the kipper fleet and it seems the right way to me, but then I haven't flown on any other fleets.

RR

[welshwizard]

WELL DONE Radar Riser. A note of common sense. Also ties in nicely with the concepts of CRM.

[MightyGem]

Why are the kippers called kippers?

[airborne_artist]

Why are the kippers called kippers?

Reminds me of the old messdeck saying:

"There's two things that smell of fish, and one of them's fish"

[VoicesFromTheCreche]

Hyd3

You are MISQUOTING the u/c document

Once more with feeling

"In the RN the senior aircrew officer is NORMALLY to be the Aircraft Commander"
...allowing (in the finest traditions of the service) flexibility and common sense to be applied to unusual circumstances

[santiago15]

Why are the kippers called kippers?

I believe it stems from the role the Nimrods played in fisheries protection (cod wars?) Although I'm sure the old and bold could offer more insight..........

[hyd3failure]

ok ok...NORMALLY. But what is abnormal about it? In XX years of aviation I have never known it for any one other than the most senior to be the AC.

[Bunker Mentality]

'Why are the kippers called kippers?'

.... Because if they were called 'aspirins' you might mistakenly take one for a Haddock!;)

[Splash Coxswain]

MG & Santiago

'Why are the kippers called kippers?'

Goes way back beyond Nimrod through Shackletons to the days of Flying Boats in RAF Coastal Command.

Known as the Kipper Fleet. Always has been always will!

[Bismark]

Re "A/c commander is normally the senior...."

In my time flying in the RN there were many times when the GL (career) man was senior but not a/c captain - not experienced enough, especially the post CofC guys. As I said before it is up to to the authoriser to decide who he wants to be the captain of the a/c taking the seniority issue into due consideration.

[Tourist]

Hyd3, you talk sh1t.
The RN is far more practical about A/C command than you suggest. 771 and Gannet SAR base the aicraft command entirely on experience, be that observer or pilot, in my experience, and 847 regularly puts C/Sgts in charge of Majors.
In practice, the RN generally will use seniority to decide between equally experienced aircrew, but even then most aircrew will take turns about.

[hyd3failure]

Why are 771 and Gannet making the AC the most experienced and not iaw the great rule book. Are you saying that 771 and Gannet are contravening the great rule book?

Because IMHO thats not the case. Its certainly not the case in the MHF,LHF or JHC.

In fact the only time I can say that the AC is based upon experience is with the SHAR force.

[Tourist]

Before you can be a SAR P1, you have to have done some time as a p2 to get experience. Often a year. Simple common sense.:confused:

[Trumpet_trousers]

In fact the only time I can say that the AC is based upon experience is with the SHAR force

......What does our steely-eyed killer do then, wrestle with his schizoid alter ego to decide who's going to be the AC? :ok:

[Yeller_Gait]

Radar Riser has it summed up fairly well, as far as he goes ....

Let the senior pilot (the captain in RAF speak), sign for and be responsible for the aircraft. Let someone else down the back be the mission commander, responsible for fighting the aircraft. Flight safety is paramount.

SIMPLE

It is a bonus if an experienced pilot captain can have a sensible input into the mission ( a la Nimrod) but equally, know your place (a la Sentry).

Having seen both sides, they both work equally well. The bonus of the Sentry way is that two officers get written up as Captain/TD/Leader etc, got to be good for their careers.

[crossbow]

Exactly. In the SHAR, the AC is either the pilot or his mate - George.

Before you can be a SAR P1, you have to have done some time as a p2 to get experience. Often a year. Simple common sense

My cousin (God rest him) was a SK SAR pilot and those were in the days when there was just a crew of 3. Single pilot, crewman and diver. Of course, the RN never allowed the crewman or diver to be the Captain.

[Brain Potter]

Out of interest, when the RN operated 2-seat FJs were senior back-seaters allowed to captain Phantoms/ Buccs/ Sea Vixens etc?