raf becoming army!

[truckiebloke]

so now it is decided in basra that there is a lack of standards and discipline being displayed so what does the hierachy decide?

no salutes to officers as it is a tactical enviroment, but you have to brace up/firm up and 'pass the time of day'

police/do gooders making sure the two can limit is strictly observed.

headress to be worn at all times(except in living area)

1021's threatened for not wearing proper headress

guards cant sit down on their duty.

what is happenening in this place?too much attention being paid to making up new rules and getting your name known for doing so, and not enough attention paid to more pressing matters.. i just think that the whole balance of priorities is so wrong.

:ok: :{ :{ :yuk:

[BEagle]

Shades of the Chevette-set at ASI after the Malvinas war..

Or that stupid prick of an Army RSM at RAF Mount Pleasant who told people waiting for the inbound TriShaw to wear headgear on the ASP in the usual 30-40 kt wind. So I had great delight, as S/L Air and SFSO, in giving him a polite chat about FOD awareness.

Keep idiots away from aeroplanes - please!

[Governormalfunction]

'guards cant sit down on their duty'

Have I missed something?? Should you be sat down on duty?? (Assuming you're not in the 'guardtent' as the guard commander that is).

Battle bowler at the ready, waiting for the incoming!!!

[truckiebloke]

well, assuming that you might have been to basra, the guards on gate duty close to living area dont really have too much to do, to say the least! so generally, one would stand, one sit.... but now both have to stand, full kit and of course head dress,not forgetting to brace and pass the time of day with officers... and you HAVE to walk up the path now and not on the road that has been good since we have been there.... new rule.

[Governormalfunction]

"what is happenening in this place?too much attention being paid to making up new rules and getting your name known for doing so, and not enough attention paid to more pressing matters.. i just think that the whole balance of priorities is so wrong".

So what do you suggest then???

Surely the whole point of being on guard, wherever you are, is to remain alert and spookily.....guard the place. You must see that!
Don't you think the bad guys consider 'Time spent in recce is never wasted?' Surely a target with 1 guy sat around is likely to be an easier target than one with 2 alert peeps on guard fully prepared for any eventuality? Even passing the time of day???

Chin strap on bowler tightened up!!

[P-T-Gamekeeper]

GMalf

I would like to see you stand up on guard for 12-24 hrs straight in the Basra heat, paying compliments to every army HQ a*****e in his personal airconned LR Disco driving the 200m to lunch, all this between 24 hr shifts on the line. Obviously, all whilst wearing full webbing.

The army are trained to man VCP's and shoot people. My techies are trained to fix a/c and I would rather they were rested and fit to do their job.

[Governormalfunction]

I get the feeling this is more of an Army v RAF issue as opposed to whether you should be alert on guard or not. Try putting more blokes on guard, that might work, it's a bit of a cunning plan, but you never know. Don't tell me you haven't got enough peeps.....

The chaps in DPM generally seem to cope, why not you?

It's a genuine question, NOT a wind up.

Strap ever tighter.....

[ZH875]

Or Better still, get the Occifers on guard, that might get either more people, or the rules relaxed.

But watch out for flying Pig Poo.

[difar69]

Couldn't agree more P-T-G! As somebody who regularly operates out there I would rather my groundcrew are as rested as they can be. I don't know about other fleets but our guys work incredibly hard in pretty unpleasant temps. In answer to your question Governor we generally have enough techies for 2 x 12 hr shifts and that is it, and they work damn hard for the whole shift. Then they rest,eat etc. and are back on. There are NO spare bods for VCP etc. The lives of my crew are in their hands, turning them into part time soldiers is dangerous and may be hazardous to my health in the long run.

[Governormalfunction]

d-69,
I can accept that, so why are they there then? Do you have peeps dressed in the wrong rank? Not enough balls to say no? The biggest problem we face is we always MAKE it work, instead of saying NO.....WE CANNOT do that job with this level of manpower. When will we ever learn???

Strap still secure....

[P-T-Gamekeeper]

A lot of hot air here from people who dont seem to have been to the desert much recently.

We could have more people on guard, we could get them from the bottomless pit of manpower we have back in the uk. The aircrew officers could all do guard, obviously in their rest periods, because we all have nothing better to do.

There are a lot of guys who have been doing long periods of time away in the desert for a few years now, and it has changed big style out there. The whole place is being turned into a UK style camp, with SRO's, mess rules, and bucket loads of needless trivia - eg you cannot wear sunglasses on your head in the mess tent.

The army seem to cope quite well, because it is their job. We should be allowed to get on with ours.

[Mikehegland]

whats wrong with wearing Beret's on the ASP ? As the good rule book states...

"Headgear may be worn"

[Mosspigs]

Tell you what. Why don't you…

A. Either stop whinging behind an anonymous title and go and stand up for you and your kin, by talking face to face with someone, rather than bleating on the internet, hoping a grown up will sort out the problems for you.

Or

B. Accept that being disciplined, not presenting yourself as an easy target whilst on guard, or getting pi**ed in a operational environment is part of all military life, not just the Army.

Who knows, perhaps the perceived anal way of doing business is a tried and tested way of keeping people alive. Just a thought.

[PTT]

On the Psychology of Military Incompetence. (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0712658890/qid=1105365034/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl/202-6789024-9078244)

Chapter 16, entitled "Bullsh!t", covers this wonderfully. It is more important that the job is done properly than you look good doing it. Sideburns, sunglasses, wearing of headdress, not supplying chairs (and, more importantly, shade) for guards and having the guard "brace up/firm up" are endemic of the "bull**** ethos" which many in the military (NOT just the Army) fall prey to.
Operational effectiveness must be emphasised over looking "good" in the eyes of one's superiors.

[Prop-Ed]

MossPigs,

A. As aircrew, our level of representation is desperately inadequate when it comes to facing down the policy makers out there. The upper echelons simply do not understand, let alone seem to care about our various concerns and grievances. I think truckiebloke's original post is a venting of frustration rather than a call to grown ups to sort out the problems. I for one have complete sympathy with him!

B. There is grown up discipline and there is Army discipline. The RAF have currently survived without loss to enemy action in Basra just fine for the last 2 years without the threat of 1021s for not wearing headress hanging over them!

Rules are for the guidance of wise men……..

[JessTheDog]

I have to confess a sneaking sympathy for the complaints on this thread. Good order and discipline is a necessary component of military life and unavoidable, but there is often a tendency to overpromote this when all else is going to r@t**** on the grounds that sorting real problems costs money but discipline costs nothing. It is this juxtaposition that p!ssed me off the most whilst in a blue suit - the emphasis on minor detail and the wilful ignorance of major problems. So I handed my kit back in and am now a happy civvie! :D

[Lee Jung]

A novel suggestion I know, but what about RAF Regiment/RAF Police to guard the gate.

I'm standing by for the arguments from Rockapes and Snowdrops stating they are far too war-like or busy rifling through baggage to do anything remotely operational, but it is no more out of trade than an aircraft maintainer doing it.

Once again this is not a wind-up, I'm just curious.......

[Maple 01]

Nothing new under the sun. As BEags says a carbon copy of the goings-on at RAF Mount Pleasant in 86/87, 'normalisation,' bring regular uniform, salute in corridors etc. Did it improve morale? Did it improve efficiency? Or did it boost the egos of CBFFI and his chums (Army both times)

I remember a letter posted to RAF Pravda during the first gulf from some SWO complaining the linies and plumbers in a photo feature looked 'unmilitary' because they mixed and matched clothing to suit the conditions - some 'old boy' wrote in to say he'd been SENGO on one of the Desert Airforce squadrons back in 1943, and his guys looked like pirates too – and no-one give a t*ss as long as the job got done.

RAF discipline and the Army type are totally different by the very nature of the services, don't confuse the lack of the niceties of the second with a lack of professionalism.

Edited to compliment Lee Jung on the perceptiveness of his/her post - but why stop there? Why not get the army to perform one of their primary roles?

[P-T-Gamekeeper]

MossPigs - if you hate hiding behind anonymous ID's, why don't you fill in some detail on your profile - or would that reveal too much??

[StopStart]

Not getting pissed in an operational environment??? Part of military life?? Which military??
Can I be excused dets with Mosspigs please?

Remember kids: hats on, shirts tucked in and no running with scissors!

:ok:

[Vortex what...ouch!]

I didn't think one of the Army's primary roles was to protect the RAF, I thought that was what the RAF Regiment was there for. Why are they not doing it?:rolleyes:

[glum]

They're all stuck in the UK teaching us how to live in tents and not get bitten by desert spiders...

[Door Slider]

A couple of briefs points.
As per usual we are deployed in very small numbers. The techies on my unit do guard duties but in between shifts on the line. This is a flight safety hazard. Its not a case of sending more guys out to theatre, we dont have them.
The SH force are more lined with the army than the RAF these days and we seem to manage with their rules.
If your on guard its for a reason, do the job stop whinging. Some rules are trivial but you have to draw a line somewhere, keep the bloody bar open though!!

[HOODED]

Hey ho! and with the Techies taking huge cuts at the moment who's going to do the guard duties then? Maybe we could stop em having to work on those stupid flying things! Oh we might as well call ourselves the Army then.

[LoeyDaFrog]

... Try putting more blokes on guard...

That is a really, really good idea. Only snag, we don't seem to have any left now TCH decided that we can all do everything with only 40ish thousand blue suits.

ummmm, retires to the corner of the bar and doesn't really care anymore!!:(

[Vortex what...ouch!]

I have to ask again why is the RAF Regiment not in theatre providing for the defence of RAF assets? This is the sole reason they exist. To say they are all in the UK is to say they are no longer needed. I will be suggesting to my MP that if they cannot guard the RAF on ops then perhaps they should be at the top of the list of defence cuts as there is clearly no need for them.

[Door Slider]

Vortex,
A Sqn of RAF Reg is at BAS and its duties are to provide force protection to the perimeter and outside the wire also provide an ARF. The internal guard posts are manned by other station chaps and girls.

[Mad_Mark]

I am amazed at the number of posters here that don't seem to have a clue about todays RAF manning and who and what people are doing in BAS :rolleyes: Many must surely be either not in the RAF, never been to BAS or just sit around on their fat ar$es all day without a clue what the coalface are up to (i.e. their Airships!).

As has been said, the RAF Regiment ARE in theatre, with an area of several thousand square miles to patrol securing the perimeter and the countryside around the airfield - and they do a bloody good job too!! The internal guardforce is made up from those deployed there to do other primary tasks. Taking someone away from their primary task increases the workload on those left to carry out that task. Getting more people out there to do the extra duties that are needed - who? This bunch of Muppetts that call themselves our Government have cut the forces to the bare bone, with more reductions still to take effect! We are stretched already and it will only get worse when all the announced reduncies are made :sad:

MadMark!!! :mad:

[I_stood_in_the_door]

Mad Mark,

And who did you vote for in the elections since '97?

All,

As ever, when your Airships start to impose petty (but sometimes appropriate) regulations it is the first signs that they are bored with nothing to do all day but kick morale in the slats.

Therefore, as my experience of other secret airbases in the desert in the past few years proves, this is an early indication that the job has been done and surely it is time to go home?

Sadly not in this case. One guesses that Mr Bliar must hang on to Mr Blushes coat tails a wee while longer.

Work hard troops and play hard. Whilst the jobs you do in the desert go unseen by the masses (Mssrs Public et al), the few who know the score take off our caps and doff them in your hard working direction.

ISITD

:}

[The Burning Bush]

Vortex what...ouch! - I have to ask again why is the RAF Regiment not in theatre providing for the defence of RAF assets? This is the sole reason they exist. To say they are all in the UK is to say they are no longer needed.
Vortex what...ouch!, I have to say that you obviously don't have a clue what you are talking about. As some previously enlightened posters have already pointed out the RAF Regt is already in theatre and have been right from the start. If fact, during the war fighting phase around 90% of the Regt was deployed.
You obviously have another axe to grind, if so come out and say it, don't try and hide it by posting misleading information.

Vortex what...ouch! - I will be suggesting to my MP that if they cannot guard the RAF on ops then perhaps they should be at the top of the list of defence cuts as there is clearly no need for them.


Vortex what...ouch! - I am living in Sydney and need to renew my UK medical. Does anyone know of a medical examiner in Sydney who can do it for me. Its only a class 2.

Thanks


Go ahead and write to your MP :rolleyes: I would suggest that if you are, as you state, living in Sydney, Australia, your MP might seem a little confused.

Vortex what...ouch!........... seems to me that your name was well chosen. :E

[Vortex what...ouch!]

Go ahead and write to your MP I would suggest that if you are, as you state, living in Sydney, Australia, your MP might seem a little confused.
Indeed I will and the fact I live in Sydney for the moment will not impact on the fact I hold a British passport and have as much influence as you. A thing called the postal ballot might have something to do with it….Maybe you’ve heard of it…..
Vortex what...ouch!, I have to say that you obviously don't have a clue what you are talking about. As some previously enlightened posters have already pointed out the RAF Regt is already in theatre and have been right from the start.
A whole Sqn……….Well done.
If fact, during the war fighting phase (so what is going on now) around 90% of the Regt was deployed. \
If there was 90% deployed then there clearly is not enough available to do the job. But that does not fit in with the above. Where are the rest?
You obviously have another axe to grind, if so come out and say it, don't try and hide it by posting misleading information.
No axe, I was army after all :) And, of course, by inference, superior :)

Vortex what...ouch! - I am living in Sydney and need to renew my UK medical. Does anyone know of a medical examiner in Sydney who can do it for me. Its only a class 2.
Only need a class 2 these days.

I do indeed live in Sydney these days, very good it is too. And my medical requirements have nothing to do with the fact that the RAF Regt seem to be failing to do the job they were created to do. Move over need a little empire.......

Feeling inadequate or something?

Vortex what...ouch!........... seems to me that your name was well chosen.
Nearly forgot, vortex ring state. I didn't listen and very nearly came to grief. You are right on something, my name was well chosen........:E

Edited because I am as precocious as the guy before……

[The Burning Bush]

I shouldn't would think 'your' MP would pay much notice to a letter from an overseas voter, so you'll forgive me if I don't start queuing for my P45 just yet.

Anyway, there is actually much more than a whole sqn in that particular theatre, but this is not the place to discuss that, and obviously there is a little thing called roulement, unless of course you are suggesting we all just stay out there?

You are right about one thing though, there are not enough VHR field sqns at the moment to fill current commitments. But we are aiming at changing that.

The aim of the Sydney post was merely to highlight your location, not to cause you any embarrassment. Perhaps I shouldn't have included the whole of your post, but I don't know what a 'class 2' medical is, so wouldn't have known it would touch a nerve.

Aaah, you were in the Army, had I known that I probably wouldn't have bitten at your orginal posts, as the 'axe' angle would have been clear to see:}

So, I think we have cleared up your misapprehension that all of us Regiment types just sit in the UK and drink tea. Like many other branches in the RAF, we go where we are sent and do the best that we can when we get there. Toodle Pip.

[potcivvy]

Having read this whole thread I am now just curling up in a ball and hoping the ground will swallow me up. How embarrassing; knowing full well that many people from around the world read this we act like spoilt children in a playground.
Get a grip and do the job. Yes, we all know how hard done by HM Forces are with this government but we have to work with what we are given. If you don't like it then walk - simple.
And as for the whole Army/RAF rivalry, well that is just getting a teeny bit tedious now so give it up.

As an ex-forces man myself now living abroad I like to look at this site to keep abreast of developments and all I get is this trash. Grow up people.

[P-T-Gamekeeper]

If you don't like it, why bother reading the whole thread.

If you are not mil any more, then stop whingeing on a mil site on a subject you have no recent experience of.

P.S. Nottingham doesn't sound very overseas . . . . . .

[BEagle]

A lot of people have indeed walked - and many others would if only they could, potcivvy.

[JessTheDog]

I walked! This shower in power are shafting the armed forces and it is galling to see the focus on trivia (passing the "time of day" - what gratification it would have caused me as an officer) juxtaposed with the collossal stupidity of many major decisions taken in Whitehall or at command level.

The public need to know of military dissatisfaction.

[thelynxeffect]

Hope you don't mind me quoting you, 'The lives of my crew are in their hands, turning them into part time soldiers is dangerous and may be hazardous to my health in the long run.'

These people you are talking about are in the HM Forces (RAF) , if you don't want to play soldiers now and then, go and work for BA!

[juliet]

thelynxeffect - as a pilot i dont want to play at soldiers at all, i am however happy to play at being aircrew. people are leaving to join BA, amongst others, as fast as they can. unfortunately some of us are tied in for a little while yet and so cant get out. in the mean time we have to put up with all the bolleaux that more often than not simply degrades our operational effectiveness.

[C130 Techie]

These people you are talking about are in the HM Forces (RAF) , if you don't want to play soldiers now and then, go and work for BA!

I assume you are miltary as your profile is blank

Granted we are in HM Forces (RAF). However some of us are heavily tasked to fly or maintain complex aircraft, some of which carry lots of people or things that go bang.

If they want us to play soldiers as well fine but we cannot do both at the same time.

I suggest that the next time you have the pleasure to fly in one of her majesties finest fat alberts or shiny fleet aircraft just consider the possible consequences if one of the crew or groundcrew is seriously fatigued due to being p****d about or guarding during his rest periods...........

:(

This sentiment also goes for the other non aircraft trades who have an equally important job to do in equally difficult conditions.

Ultimately Bliars desire to be a world statesman on a shoestring is to blame.

Oh and some of us are proud of what we do and are dedicated despite everything so BA is NOT an option!!

[Pontius Navigator]

Just found this thread.

Back in 1974, a Maj Keck, USAF Police, equivalent to the RAF Regt. He told how USAF guards used to stand until the new college grads said how they could do a better job, in a deck chair, under a shade, with shades and a cool pack. They could see UNDER the aircraft they were supposed to be guarding rather than standing with their backs to the kite.

By proper deployment they covered their 6 and stayed more alert. Needless to say he didn't take their word for it but tried it out. It worked.

In Malaya in 1964 the RMAux Police used to 'hide' too. Very effective.

Standing up as a target is a very good early warning of attack but not necessarily very bright.

As for ASI, as Beagle said, I had a Chevette but only CBFASI, OC Admn and Slops wore caps, oh an SLATS, SNO, and BASI.

[timex]

This thread sounds a lot like the thread about crew duty. If you or your crew/maintainers are not up to doing the job because you are doing other duties then I suggest you run up the Flt Safety flag. We all get tired and thats what it's their for.


Most Military people need discipline because of the job they do, if it needs to be slacker in the RAF again fine., but just remember some of the recent attacks on bases have come from within and if your only defence is a tradesman with a gun, well so be it.

[Amateur Aviator]

Yes, I've had a few to drink tonight (to celebrate first wednesday of the week), but my head hurts from reading all these posts.

However, I am going to contribute to this whole mess;

Any organization can be joint right up until the point the army become involved, at which point, they take over and are the most inflexible bunch since cast iron was discovered. The only way is the army way.

Flexibility is the key to air power?

I think not.

Whilst on det, I expect sqn techies to do techie sh1t. Aircrew do aircrew sh1t. Army do army sh1t. The moment that these responsibilities get messed up, problems will inevitably occur. Areas of specialisation are there for a reason, and others should not interfere.

For general information, I am now stepping off my soap box and retiring to my quarters with my flak vest on.

AA

[sandbagger]

.
.
During WW2 Sir Winston Churchill said something pertinent about the RAF and it's ability to defend it'self, including it's bases. :* Amounted to DIY :hmm:
.
.

[Blacksheep]

I had an interesting chat with the Garrison Sergeant Major over a few beers in the Garrison Sergeants' Mess at Aldershot one night. He didn't think the average RAF airman was up to keeping an area secure and shooting people while being shot at. They were meant for other things, like mending aeroplanes, running stores and communication centres and the like. He also said there were lots of soldiers - in the REME and the Royal Corps of Signals for example - doing similar work, and he thought that the same applied to them too. The majority of the army were soldiers who weren't much good for anything else but fighting or patrolling about, looking for trouble; As an RSM he had spent most of his career imposing very strict discipline on his charges simply to stop them bashing each others brains out for the fun of it.

To put it bluntly the army don't think the RAF should be standing guard duties either, because they are no bloody good at it.

[glum]

Well put. I didn't join up to shoot at people, I joined up to fix things, see the world, do MY bit for the country. If people start shooting at me I'll run away. If things need fixing I'll fix them.

[FJJP]

Glum, you really fill me full of confidence. I agree with the general sentiment of this thread that there is an unacceptable situation where maintainers off shift are employed on guard duty instead of resting - it is a safety issue - and that discip trivia detract from the task at hand. However, if shooting breaks out, a rapid re-prioritisation takes place and EVERYBODY around should take cover and return fire.

Although aircrew, I knew that at any time I could be involved as above - running away was not an option.

You join the Forces to KILL people when ordered. You take the Queen's shilling, so get any ideas out of your head that you are employed to do a specific job and nothing else. In all recent wars, some of those who ran away ended up with bullets - in the back...

[ImageGear]

In a hot & sticky place many moons ago, we two RAF fitters were told to maintain & guard a box about a mile from the main jungle camp.

We sandbagged, trip wired, flared and trenched the place and then we were given "AMMUNITION" :eek: for our normally empty mags and virginal SLR's, and told to authenticate anyone incoming or let off one or two of our limited supply in the general direction. This would supposedly bring the cavalry over the hill. (We knew then that we were deep in the proverbial).

Later the OC brought around a Captain from 2Bn Grenadier Guards to inspect his "defensive force". Said Captain scanning the jungle clearing, evaluated the two steely-eyed (Quivering) fitters and announced to everyone present. If you two gentlemen hear, smell or see anything, friend, enemy, children dogs or monkeys - run like your a**e is on fire back to the main camp.

No one will ever get to you before you are badly wasted.

He then promptly left with a polite - "Good day gentlemen"

Minutes later, we all pulled out with a "well if they want it they can have it"

They do what they do, and we (RAF) do what we do, and neither of us do the other very well. (my opinion)

Imagegear

[glum]

FJJP

I hear what you're saying, and hope that in the circumstances I would be able to return fire whilst simultaneously peeing in my boots, but to be honest I doubt I'd be much good. Sticking around to get shot is daft, when running bravely away to come back later and recover the situation when the proper soldiers have done their bit is better.

As aircrew, you have a mighty good chance of being shot down, and therefor must be prepared to fight your way home again.

As a maintainer, I do my bit in the (relative) safety of an airbase. I do a day a year down the regiment section. And shoot at a computer screen. So in 18 years, I've done 18 days training. Is that enough to fight off the bad guys?

Now if the hoards of evil were actually coming ashore in Blighty, I'm sure the resolve to protect my own country would be much much higher...

[rafloo]

"unacceptable situation where maintainers off shift are employed on guard duty instead of resting" what on earth is wrong with that???? why is that unacceptable? How about maintainers being required to stay up most of the night cleaning the heads and bathrooms? Or the aircrew having to be up all night as they are Officer of the Day and required for SPO duties, watch change overs, small arms checks, Crypto musters etc etc etc and on and on...

We are in the military and are expected to do as we are told. Sadly there are members of the air Farce who believe us just to be pilots and nothnig else. Sorry guys, 'fraid you are Air Farce Officers first and foremost and piloting aircraft is not your primary remit.

[juliet]

so rafloo, are you saying that officer stuff takes priority over flying stuff even when detached to an operational theatre? when faced with the option of orderly officer type duty in basrah that will impact on my crew rest, or telling the powers that be that they can shove it cause of the afore mentioned crew rest, i should do the orderly officer as that is my real job. get real fella. no pilot joins up to be an officer first, we join to fly. doing anything that comes under the remit of 'officer duties' is generally done begrudgingly when it takes us away from flying. to be told that we should be doing that cr*p out in theatre as well is ridiculous.

[Al-Berr]

Rafloo,

I'm afraid you have your wires crossed. I agree that all officers in the Air Force as supposed to be officers first:rolleyes:. However, the "remit" of aircrew IS piloting. Just like the "remit" of OC Supply is blanket stacking and SATCO is air traffic controlling, etc.

The primary duty for aircrew and associated trades in Basrah is to get the aircraft from a to b on time and safely. Since April 2003 the detachment I have been involved with has done exceptionally well at this and has received praise from all over. This was achieved with the help of flexibility. The army is eating away at our flexibility by, amongst other things, making the poorly represented lower rank engineers work 24/7.

From the army point of view, having everybody working like this is probably a good use of manpower. Doesn't work in the aircrew environment. Imagine the fallout if a herc full of squadies crashed in to a civilian airliner in the Gulf because the crew/engineers had fcuked up whilst on their 23rd hour working. I know for sure that if I was piloting that aircraft my wife would get a knock at the door and be informed that the crash was the crew's fault for not adhering to rules - you have 90 days to get out of your quarter.

People are using this forum to voice flight safety concerns because all the ones we have voiced out in theatre have fallen on deaf ears. I want to continue doing my job and do it well. Perhaps the obscene amount of paperwork generators in Basrah could do guard while not sitting in their air-conditioned offices typing the minutes of the toucan bar committee meeting:yuk: .

[C130 Techie]

RAFLOO - Once again you demonstrate your narrow minded idotic and uninformed view of military air operations.

Undermanning and overworking = unecessary pressure=flight safety hazard=huge potential for disaster.

Every flight safety film I have seen or brief I have attended in the last 27 years has preached this first and foremost.

As I previously posted think on it the next time you fly!!!!!!!

[Stax]

Oh Dear, Oh Dear, Oh Dear.

Once again we come up against the Army V RAF and the "I'm not a soldier I'm a fixer/stacker/scribbly" etc.
Whilst I do agree with the posts pointing out that the Army tend to take over when we go "joint", if you get an occifer with the balls to talk to them and explain things like Flight Safety etc they will listen and adapt! They did for me in Bosnia (and I'm not an occifer)
As to guard duty, how about "Producer Guards" where SNCO's (you know those blokes that are paid to be in charge of other blokes) ensure that their AOR is covered by personnel not actually on task during their 12 hr shift pattern (and yes I agree, keep your gaurds in protected and cammed positions with good arcs and all round vision not standing around).
Aircrew doing anything but flying? No thanks I have met aircrew who can't even put CBA into it's cover without f*****g it up!
Are those naughty Army men stopping you from drinking more than 2 cans a day in an operational theatre! Tough, get a life, if you can't go without getting pi55ed for a few months maybe you have a problem.
By the way, the gentleman who had a pop at the Gunners, they are losing 4 Rapier Sqn's by 2008, these were Sqn's who have all re-roled over the last 3 years and carried out field duties, another
pool of manpower that won't be available in the future.
Bottom line people is, as the CDS recently said of the RAF "I want warfighters first, tradesmen second". I'm sure many of you thank the lord for redundancy!
As to the original comments about bracing up etc, get it in perspective, there are people being shot out there, so if you brace up for an occifer it marks him as a target!

[C130 Techie]

As to guard duty, how about "Producer Guards" where SNCO's (you know those blokes that are paid to be in charge of other blokes) ensure that their AOR is covered by personnel not actually on task during their 12 hr shift pattern

And we get these people from where exactly? Deployments have barely sufficient manpower to operate as it is.

We are man managers not magicians

[fatter albert]

Oi ZH875

As an Officer out in BAS I spent more time on guard (albeit guard commander) than any of the airmen on our Det.

Effective guarding in a place like that is all about credibility; if the guard is standing up looking alert, the would-be terrorist decides to go for the target down the road where the guard is sitting on his arse eating pizza and watching a DVD (which does happen). You know as well as I do the guard only spends half his time on guard on his feet. The rest he gets to sit in the hut.

Also, BAS SSOs (which in themselves are an indication that too many people out there have too much time on their hands) stipulate a minimum amount of rest before and after the guard period.

I see no reason why military technicians shouldn't take their fair share of guard duties. What does p!$$ me off in BAS though is having guys poached constantly just to flatter some admin desk jockey's ego. In the rest of the world, admin supports everything else. At BAS, everyone supports admin. The arrivals and clearance processes are needlessly more complex and time consuming than any other Stn I've ever been to, and not because of the security aspects. If people have got time to write SROs and organise Stn Cdr's inspections, then they've got more time to do more guard, as far as I'm concerned.

RAF Police with speed guns? Don't get me started.

[truckiebloke]

and of course lets not forget the latest rule..... no t-shirts with any sqn markings on them at all!! only, its not til you get to theatre that thay make this up and you've brought your finest collection along with you!!

and rafloo, its nice to know that my 6 months of officer training make me an officer first, over my 4 years of flying training making me a pilot second!!

[Safeware]

I want warfighters first, tradesmen second

That'll be fine, right up to the point where he needs a good tradesman

sw

[A good headin]

The CAS and every senior officer I know has stated "Warfighter first,Specialist second"

That applies to all ranks/branch/trade.

Sorry techies,aircrew,rocks,pigs,stackers,squippers,air tragic,scopies etc.

If you don't like this concept, then its time to leave:sad:

[Safety_Helmut]

Hey, call me naive, (go on someone will, or worse), but what is the 'warfighting' role of the RAF ? Please don't just quote the blurb and doctrine, let's be realistic about it ?

Certainly, guarding and all the other stuff we hate is a part of it, but if we don't get those aircraft in the air, in a reasonably servicable and airworthy, safe state, then we've failed.

So yes, let's fill the RAF with warfighters, but let's recognise what that truly means for us.

Safety_Helmut

[exleckie]

For the doubters out there, I would like to explain something.

Put a techie on guard for a twelve hour shift.
Then call him in to rectify a flight safety critical problem.

He is tired from his stag and is not thinking clearly.

He is satisfied that the aircraft is servicable and sends it on it's way.That a/c could have gone down because tired techie who was doing guard couldn't do his job.

Aircraft goes u/s albeit safely at next base. Could have been worse. Tired techie could have been responsible for many deaths.

Remember, when you fly out on your nice, well earned holiday with your wife and kids in tow, would you trust a tired engineer to make sure all is well? On your holiday flight? I don't think so.

The RAF have quality groundcrew who make sure that the fast jets, AT fleet, Support helicopters etc fly safely.

Tire them out and accidents both in the air and on the ground, will happen.

It's called flight safety and I am sorry, but the army ( other than AAC) the navy ( other than FAA ), will never understand.

Air force technicians do what they do best and that is fix, maintain and ensure aircraft are fit to fly.

Not only for the crew that fly them, but for the PAX that fly in them

Do you want to fly in a botched job aircraft because the army have taken control of a technician and done " army things with them"

Or do you wish to fly safe??????????

The choice is yours.

Exleckie

[timex]

So who is going to the Guarding? Every arm of the services are down to the bare bones, do you really think if the Army had the man power they would give your guys these jobs?

Bear in mind that while you are on guard "inside" the wire your "Rocks" or Army guys are outside and not able to do both.

FWIW the Junglie maintainers, service the aircraft and protect the locations, the pilots and crewman all pitch in too.

Just put it down to overstretch like the rest of us and get on with it. Can't see things changing.

[P-T-Gamekeeper]

Perhps if we limited ourselves to the operations we said we would under Options for Change, then we could afford the manpower to do it properly.

A man cannot guard/fix/sleep all at the same time.

In the style of T Blair, the three main problems are:

OVERSTRETCH, OVERSTRETCH, OVERSTRETCH.

[Canary Boy]

A Good headin said:The CAS and every senior officer I know has stated "Warfighter first,Specialist second"
Well that's porked the credibility of that then... He went on:That applies to all ranks/branch/trade. Sorry techies,aircrew,rocks,pigs,stackers,squippers,air tragic,scopies etc. If you don't like this concept, then its time to leave
Apart from being terrifyingly simplistic, it's a stupid generalisation. The arguments put forward by those disappointed with the so-called 'man-management' on dets are all no brainers. You can't compromise flight safety for whatever reason. The only astute observation comes at the end - yup, it's time to go. :{

[Safeware]

AGH,
That applies to all ranks/branch/trade. Sorry techies,aircrew,rocks,pigs,stackers,squippers,air tragic,scopies etc. If you don't like this concept, then its time to leave

I don't think it's the concept of having a 'war' role and mucking in on deployed ops that is the problem. What is (IMHO) going to drive people out is the relentless nature of deployed ops, coupled with reduced quality of life back in the UK and a lack of a career path for those that valued the variety of different jobs rather than same job, different location.

All this forward and depth stuff is ok, but where are people going to get the breadth of experience in the future to prepare them for more senior management (branch or trade)? The IPT's are also having to cut back their military manpower but still need the jobs done and are likely to go out to contractors to do this. It is difficult to recruit civil servantsto do the jobs because of salary and expereince needed but contractor support is a different cost - more expensive, but different budget.

Therefore, in 5 - 10 years time there will be no depth in the knowledge of 'the management', and that can't be good.

sw

[Blacksheep]

Time to go? Yep! That's what drove me out at the end of my first twelve. I didn't mind the daily grind down on the flight line, the sixty hour week keeping our aircraft airborne (safely) The CDS even called up a round in the squadron bar for us, when he noticed the same guys seeing him in as saw him out, in the wee small hours of a Sunday morning. Top man, he was.

No, it was the crappy jobs like Orderly Sergeant (SHQ Clerical staff were excused, as were squadron SNCO aircrew) or Gate Guard Commander (no weapons - we'd beat them to death with a rolled up copy of Station Standing Orders) that made me wonder what the fcuk I was doing in my blue suit.

Now I'm not averse to doing my share, but on a station with an establishment of nearly a thousand, were there really only fifty SNCOs on the unit to do "Station Duties"? How did (do they still?)the shiny-arses get away with calling their daily jobs "Station Duties"? I suppose fixing helicopters wasn't anything to do with the Station's role...

So, if they really wanted me to guard the gate, I'd have appreciated a stack of sandbags to hide behind, with a heavy machine gun or two, perhaps even an armoured vehicle with a 20 mm on top. Looking mean and military might have discouraged anyone with evil intent from trying to get onto the unit. Otherwise, I'm quite content out here in my jungle paradise, surrounded by the communist hordes, thank you.

[The Helpful Stacker]

not forgetting to brace and pass the time of day with officers...

Shouldn't guards be paying attention to their arcs rather than trying to spot DPM rank slides on an oxygen thief in a Landcruiser?


As for the flight saftey implications of tradesmen doing guards I fully agree, but its not just 'techies' that can cause flight safety problems if they do their job wrong whilst tired. Suppliers, ATC, Caterers and many others all have their part to play.

[glum]

Too right. We are once again our own worst enemies, and have always just got on with it, no matter how many extra burdens are added to our primary role.

Trouble is, we really do seem to have reached the bottom of the barrel. You only have to see that we now deploy reserves regularly - permanently even - because we do not have enough regular forces.

Any of the top brass looked up the definition of 'reserve'?

Wonder how long before they head off to Marshalls and get some reserve aircraft techies?

Or pop along to the AA for some reserve MT fitters?

Maybe tap up BP for some of their tanker drivers?

I'm paid a lot of money to do my job, and do it well. Chipping away at my morale, concentration and self respect by belittling my skills does not help.

Nor does it help recruit and keep the next generation.

[timex]

Gents welcome to the real world, this is what the Army and Navy have had to put up with for years. your manning levels have always been high (large numbers of Sp staff and Engineers on deployments). Now your numbers are reducing its all hands to the pumps.
Sorry guys "live with it or leave seems to be the hierachy 's answer"

[engineer(retard)]

Timex

"this is what the Army and Navy have had to put up with for years"

and if you do nothing about it, you will have to put up with it forever.

Regards

retard

[Stax]

Gents

I was a bit full on during my earlier post but make no apologies for my opinions.

However the point I am making is, whether you like it or not, we are in the military and therefore may have to carry out tasks outside of our trade. This includes guarding places, at home and abroad.

Exleckie.

Producer guards dont get tired, as their time on stag is included in the normal shift pattern, Guins on Regt Sqn's have done it for years, succesfully.

I agree with the post with ref to "exempt duties" personnel. I have never been on that position, I have always carried out Sqn and Station duties. Worse than that IMHO are the oxygen theives exempt OOA. In my trade at the moment only 48% of my rank are eligible for deployment!

I would also hazard a guess that most (not all) of the whinging on this thread come from people who don't do full length OOA tours, tend to use well found bases and live in hotels.
(CBA and Kevlar on)

[The Helpful Stacker]

I would also hazard a guess that most (not all) of the whinging on this thread come from people who don't do full length OOA tours, tend to use well found bases and live in hotels.

As someone who spent 6 years on TSW I can safely say that doesn't apply to me.

I never had the benefit of a 'well found' base to operate from, never had the advantage of RAF Regt personnel to assist if not do all the guarding for us and as for hotels, who wants a load of lads that stink of AVTUR wandering through their lobby?

As for
Gents welcome to the real world, this is what the Army and Navy have had to put up with for years. your manning levels have always been high (large numbers of Sp staff and Engineers on deployments). Now your numbers are reducing its all hands to the pumps.

What a load of cods.

Unlike the Army (and the Navy to a lesser extent) the RAF does not have a large amount of redundancy in the system to make up for personnel losses, be that through death, injury or secondment to non-primary duties.

Here's an example relevant to me.

In the Army if a deployed logistics base is being set up the RLC will send out fuels specialists, supply controllers, supply specialists, plant ops and many others whereas in the RAF many of those RLC tasks can be carried out by one Supplier, so thats all we send. As a Supplier I can work in many of the 'parts' that the RLC has but an equivalent RLC storeman can only do part of my trade.

I don't intend for this to be an 'us and them' comment (I'm ex-RGJ myself) but rather I post it to show its not al balck and white. We are different branches of the forces for a reason and we operate in different ways. The sooner we all realise this and stop trying to make every the same (green?) the better

[Stax]

Helpful

When were you on the wing?

I was at Lipa in 98 and I know what you mean about the Pet Ops guys. There was two of us to do tankers and helo's 24/7 (it was a break when winter came and there was no night flying) The Army had at least 18 to do tankers only!

However my point is that a lot of the whining in this thread come's from people who don't (due to the nature of their jobs) have to do the kind of thing we constantly get on with.

I've also recently spent 4 years with the Regt during which you not only do your job, but defend yourself as well (hence producer guards)

Truckie bloke, do you have to do a guard stint in Basra?

[The Helpful Stacker]

I was at Lipa in 98 and I know what you mean about the Pet Ops guys.

I was at GV in '98, with Bev.

[Stax]

Helpful

I took over from Shug in the August. Knoecker was the A/FS in split. You must have had Gino? Bewie was my bitch (he's back on the wing)

[C130 Techie]

Its amazing every time this thread turns a corner we have a new p*****g contest. Now it's who stayed in the best/worst hotels or deployed locations.

Some facts:

1. The RAF is about flying aeroplanes and the support associated with that. No flying = No need for RAF. Therefore our primary roles should be easily defined (as war fighters). Its many many years since war fighting was restricted to shooting each other on the ground.

2. Everyone in the RAF has a primary trade role in support of the above.

3. However, everyone should provide support to the additional duties, like guard etc both at home and deployed. Its a fact of life.

4. This must be done whilst maintaining good flight safety practices. This applys to all trades.

5. We are overstretched and there is a potential for a human failing to cause a major flight safety problem. To manage the current tasking levels more people are needed.

All this has little to do with who we think we are, how important we think we are or where we think we fit in. It has a lot to do with preventing a smoking hole in the ground!! We all likely to have to fly at some point. Think on it.

[Stax]

C130 techie

Hear Hear! At last a voice of reason, someone who realises we are all in the same team and all have to look after each other, I bow to you!

[Safety_Helmut]

Techie

I agree with you totally, and I think one of my earlier posts reflected the same sentiments.

But why, oh why, did you have to stop those two hoarders swapping stories about where they've stacked blankets and fluffed duvets ?

Maybe they could start their own thread:

"WORST location you've ever refused to issue kit, because someone else might need it........"

"BEST location you've ever refused to issue kit, because someone else might need it........"

Safety_Helmut

[The Helpful Stacker]

But why, oh why, did you have to stop those two hoarders swapping stories about where they've stacked blankets and fluffed duvets ?

http://www.tannerscouncilict.org/perspective/handbag.gif

Meooow.

Blankets are a bit more of an MOB thing really and I wouldn't know much about that.:p

[Stax]

Ah at last the abuse, been looking forward to that, it really makes my day.

Just remember, "a nice stacker is like a talking dog, very rare!"

Helpful,

Well spoken!

[engineer(retard)]

And like buses you wait for ages then 2 of them come together.

[The Helpful Stacker]

And like buses you wait for ages then 2 of them come together.

Well, we were out of stock at the depot.....

[Safety_Helmut]

And like buses you wait for ages then 2 of them come together.
so which one gets the trade brain cell then ?

The old ones are the best !

SH

[glum]

And yet another thread descends into a slanging match...

[Stax]

Glum

Yes but what fun. We members of the logistics trade are happy to be the butt of a slagging, always remember, you can always buy your own batteries for your jack stereo/kids toys etc Hee Hee (chuckles maniacally into the dusk)

[engineer(retard)]

Manning is going down but they're opening up new trades. Used to be Supply in my day. Eng and Logistics Wing just doesn't have the same ring.

[The Helpful Stacker]

And yet another thread descends into a slanging match...

Funny old thing, it always seems to be the same bitter and twisted piece of head gear that starts the decent.

Bless:rolleyes:

[truckiebloke]

stax.... not done guard in basra.. once again the issue of flight safety comes into play i think... not sure if its best to have the front enders up til late guarding, then up flying too... also, after spending so long training, with so much cost involved, is it the most efficient thing to do?

no trade that contributes to gettting the a/c in the air should do guard. To not insult anyone( i hope) there are those of us who are good at flying/engineering/ATC etc and those of us with a few less brain cells (i.e the army guys who ripped the terminal apart,shi***d everywhere, ripped up lights etc) who can do guard...

however, because none of our bosses have the balls to say different, the techies,amongst others are shafted to do a duty that stretches us BEYOND the limit and it will only be a matter of time before an accident occurs which is directly linked to this.

[The Helpful Stacker]

no trade that contributes to getting the a/c in the air should do guard.

So that'll be the entire RAF then would it? We all have our part to play.

I agree that stick jockeys and the talking ballast shouldn't be doing guards, as you say, there is a hell of a lot of money spent every year making you good for flying not for guarding, but everyone else should take their turn.

The words of Winston Churchill all those years ago are as apt now as they were when he said them. We may be tradesmen first but when called upon we must be prepared to defend our 'home'. The days of the Cold War "let someone else do the running around, I'm staying in my air conditioned HAS" are long gone, wake up folks.

ps, As for the looking down your collective noses at Infantry types just remember techies folk, they get paid exactly the same as you for a reason. Whilst it may not be as technically demanding as removing a black box to send back to BAe its a damn sight more dangerous.

THS, Ex-RGJ and current socks and shirt maestro.

[Maple 01]

I love it when that old quote rears it's ugly head. the user conveniently forgetting time and subject. Do I have to give a list of 'stupid' Chirchillian quotes? I believe it was made before the Regiment was formed......and what was the purpose of the formation of the Regiment? Couldn't be airfield defence could it?

I much prefer a Gp Cpt of my acquaintance saying 'I will NOT have my people's time wasted doing a job that the army are more suited to'. Unfortunately she ended up PVRing because no-one higher up the food chain would listen

[juliet]

people just dont get this do they! seems like most have managed to agree that aircrew shouldnt be doing guard, fantastic. taking it the next step and saying that techies shouldnt be guarding either seems to be just too much for some to comprehend however.

techie numbers are very limited with guys doing multiple dets per year, often in total more than the 3/4 months that other RAF do. the result is that we have the absolute min out in theatre. now that doesnt mean the min to do techie stuff plus naff station secondary duties, it means the bare min to be able to cover the shifts for the ops that we carry out. when we take these guys and force them to do extra duties such as guarding it reduces their rest periods so that they are often fatigued beyond a satisfactory level. this leads to flight safety implications, of which many it seems are unable to understand.

now i understand that we have to make do with what we have which in this case is limited numbers. what we should be doing is applying our people in a sensible manner that takes into account the end result of putting extra burden on our troops. heres a thought, instead of guard being divvied out equally amongst all people on camp we instead hand it out according to what other jobs they have to do. there are many trades out at basrah that work 9-5 jobs in air con environments. these people should be taking on the extra duties to free up trades such as technicians. the 9-5 types are not terribly stressed when doing their primary duty and so i would suggest they can better absorb a bit of fatigue. our techies primary duty involves working outside in temps anywhere up to 55-60c and so spend their det always outside and always fatigued. why cant people see that this is not a sensible way to operate when we are dealing with very complicated machines that require the maintainers to be on top of their game.

as for all the 'harden up' comments, well what do you say. these people are either idiots, which i doubt as in general our forces are pretty good thinkers, or they have become institutionalised by operating in crappy conditions for so long. everyone knows that there are always those worse off, and to those in the army our moaning on here must look quite petty. however, what is wrong with trying to improve your lot? do we have to keep operating in a backward way because that is the way it has always been done? just because one service operates in a certain way doesn't make it the best way for all services to operate. why cant those in different situations look on others who are trying to improve themselves as an impetus to improve their conditions as well?

[The Helpful Stacker]

I much prefer a Gp Cpt of my acquaintance saying 'I will NOT have my people's time wasted doing a job that the army are more suited to'

What? Standing on a gate?

Gees, you'd think that standing on a gate would be a piece of p!ss to a bunch of highly trained RAF types, especially as those lowly bullet catchers can do it.

So what 'that' Churchill quote was made in a time when the hun was coming over the channel, its a relevant today as it ever was.

Unless you've had you head somewhere near that sandwich you ate earlier you'll know that there are currently less troops in Iraq than there is in NI at the mo, an apparently peaceful place if the government is to be believed. On top of this Iraq is a much larger place than NI, even the little bit we control (you can check in your Ladybird big book of the world if you want). So with this small number of Army troops patrolling the towns, clearing old minefields, protecting convoys, winning hearts and minds and God knows how many other tasks where do you propose the MoD gets these extra squaddies from to guard us whilst we take a dunk in the plunge pool and have a few beers?

I'm off to Basrah in the near future and have no problem with going on the gate even though I'm also going to be on shift and having to do convoy work, I have to do the gate in the UK (as do techies) so whats the problem? Yes I agree that the tempo of work is a higher in Iraq but hey, thats why you get the X-factor and why you get a nice little bit of tin on your return to hang on you uniform next to the QGJM.

I hate to break it to people but you are a member of the Armed Forces, not a uniformed extension of the civil service. Get a grip or get out.

:rolleyes:

And no, before anyone says it, I'm not some sort of NATO potato who loves guard, I'd rather not do it but in the short term nothing is going to change, not until some jelly spined folk with all the scrambled egg on their hats say no to the Whitehall Warriors. I just get on with it, a strange concept I know but hey, us stackers are used to being shat on by everyone, eventually you get used to it.

[truckiebloke]

yes , helpful stacker that is exactly the point!! get some extra guys out to do the gate, so those that are involved in getting a/c into the air (yes, if you like that does mean everyone,if we all want to have a cuddle) can do their job that they are trained for.

Maybe when you go out there, you will see the reality. Nobody is saying that the army dont do a good job patrolling etc, but there are those that are directly linked to flying that are being affected by the multiple shifts and heat etc..

There are guys out there in life designed to do guarding, and there are those who are skilled in other ways... whats so wrong about that?

juliet has it spot on.

[The Helpful Stacker]

But it doesn't work like that truckiebloke (as much as I'd like it too).

When Mr Junior Defence Minster visits the troops in theatre to see how things are going we are our own worst enemies. The world smells of fresh paint and its "every things great Sir, but could we have more money", whilst all the time tired troops are running around covering over the cracks. We need leaders who will stand up to the Civil Service and say "no, it won't happen", but until that time Mr Junior Defence Minister is going to keep saying "you managed alright last time with 6 lads to run a sqn and do guard".

We need leaders with balls, not one eye on the pension.

[Maple 01]

So what 'that' Churchill quote was made in a time when the hun was coming over the channel, its a relevant today as it ever was.

It was made before the Regiment were raised whose remit (during WW2) was to defend airfields - Unless you think Churchill specifically was thinking 50 years in advance - it was no longer valid by 1942 - unless you also subscribe to the view that there still is an Iron curtain that extends from Trieste in the Adriatic........you'll accept that quotes are only relavent in their time. The quote's time has passed – it’s just used to legitimise a crap situation rather than dealing with the real problem - someone else shold be doing the guarding

[Safeware]

THS,

I'd rather not do it but in the short term nothing is going to change, not until some jelly spined folk with all the scrambled egg on their hats say no to the Whitehall Warriors. I just get on with it

One of the biggest dangers in life is when the hazardous becomes the norm and everyone 'just gets on with it'. Perceptions of risk fade, everyone becomes jaded and management 'just get on with it'. As I said before, I don't think people object to mucking in, it's the piling on of pressure whilst reducing resources that seeps into everything. eg cut manpower - those that are left 'just get on with it' and cope under the additional stress, 'oh look, they didn't need that much manpower in the first place, so obviously the squealing was fake, lets take some more'. again 'just get on with it', back round the circle until eventually 'boom'

Out of interest, are many CONDORs coming out these days (or does nobody have time to raise one?:) )

sw

[A good headin]

Canary Boy said

Apart from being terrifyingly simplistic, it's a stupid generalisation. The arguments put forward by those disappointed with the so-called 'man-management' on dets are all no brainers. You can't compromise flight safety for whatever reason. The only astute observation comes at the end - yup, it's time to go.

My comments while being simplistic were in general making a valid point and aimed at the masses as well as the military. I wholeheartedly agree that flight safety should NEVER be comprimised. Indeed, you will find that it is not just out in the sand this is happening but also closer to home.

There are a number of Stations in the UK where, due to cutbacks, people are working their butts off to cover for people who are deployed. I know of RAF air traffickers (at fast jet units) who work shift for 12 days in a row.

It's an accident waiting to happen and unless the individuals concerned and their SATCOS say 'no sir we can't fly anymore because we are knackered' then someone will die. SATCOs throughout the RAF appear to lack the balls to stand up and say 'hey my team are whacked sir'. This must also apply across the air force.

I would suggest that if you get a chance to talk to the CAS/CDS/AOC/ or any visiting MP, for God's sake give them the truth, because the officers above you are not.

Maybe as The Helpful Stacker says


We need leaders with balls, not one eye on the pension.

[Pontius Navigator]

Earlier someone said they had done one day's pongo trainng, per year, for 18 years.

At school we did more than that. We did section in attack, section in defence etc. We learnt the composition of a platoon down to the number of bullets carried by each member - 30 rnds .303 and 2 x 28 rnd .303 for the Bren. Given a 30 man platoon we had 2,700 rnds. Sounds like nivarnah compared with what goes for ammo now.

We also learnt the defensive pattern, two sections forward, one rear, two plattoons forward, one rear etc. So much for 2 men on stag. At school even we had one on stag in each slit trench.

I learnt, and remembered, all that after just over a year before I transfered to the RAF cadets. We needed to pass the Army part 1 and 2 first!

We might be brilliant aviators but ground pounders? Not a prayer. I quite agree with that Captain earlier, run like hell.

[16 blades]

Some posters here seem to think that techies are being asked to do guard in Basrah just in their 'spare time' - this simply is not the case. A situation where a techie shift is an entire trade down due to poaching for guard is simply unacceptable - this occurred several times during the stints I did. So far (to my knowledge) an ac hasn't been grounded due to no sooties being available to fix an engine snag (for example), but it's bound to happen sooner or later.

So, who should be doing the guarding? It is noteworthy that a phone call from the DWO for a beer raid on accommodation summoned TEN coppers within 5 minutes. Go figure.

16B

[Blacksheep]

Ten Coppers?

So, now at last we know who guards the guards. :E

That brings up a good idea. While the techies are guarding the gate we could get a few coppers and a couple of infantrymen with time on their hands to pop down the flight line and give a hand with the less technical bits such as refuelling, towing, marshalling and the like. Maybe some pilots could lend a hand with the more technical bits.

No? I thought not. Every man to his own job, it seems... We just need more people.

Conscription? Now there's an idea. There isn't another election for a few years yet and Tony still has a workable majority. We could spin it easily.

[JessTheDog]

Unless you've had you head somewhere near that sandwich you ate earlier you'll know that there are currently less troops in Iraq than there is in NI at the mo, an apparently peaceful place if the government is to be believed. On top of this Iraq is a much larger place than NI, even the little bit we control (you can check in your Ladybird big book of the world if you want). So with this small number of Army troops patrolling the towns, clearing old minefields, protecting convoys, winning hearts and minds and God knows how many other tasks where do you propose the MoD gets these extra squaddies from to guard us whilst we take a dunk in the plunge pool and have a few beers.

The can-do attitude can be a massive handicap. It enables difficult decisions to be avoided because the hard-working men and women in uniform pick up yet more slack.

A task should be properly resourced. If it can't be, the task should not be done. The command chain should have the moral courage to challenge the slipshod and head-in-sand attitude of the hierarchy. Someone with a couple (or more) blue-and-black rings should go into print on behalf of their troops.

Perhaps some regiments should not be scrapped? Perhaps the Iraq task should be handed over - at least in part? Political decisions are avoided whilst everyone pretends everything is all right, and the troops pick up the pieces.

I can say this with a pleasant sense of "detachment" (not that kind) on a beautiful sunny day in civviedom, with my blue suit mothballed for posterity! Am I sorry to have left? :mad:

[Stan Bydike]

And I wonder why I went for redundancy. I'm afraid that my comment could be tacked on to just about any thread these days. I've given thirty odd years to the RAF, the spineless chimps who can't stand up for us have finally got to me and I quit.

I had a lot of respect for Brian Burridge, having served under him in various roles and having watched how he conducted himself in Qatar. But now, the crap that comes from STC or whatever Strike is known as these days is unbelievable. Its all in his name and having attended one of his lectures! he believes it too.

The RAF as exemplified by the days of the 40's through to the 70's has gone, done and dusted. I would expect everyone joining to have an eye on their next job.

Sorry for the rant, just finally had to say how p~ssed of I am and why I am leaving but knowing that no-one upstairs will take any notice.

[BEagle]

Which is why my FIIQ-meter hit the red line in 2002 and I pulled the B&Y as soon as I could (with a bit of careful tactical calculation over such things as leave and tax years).

[The Helpful Stacker]

Sorry for the rant, just finally had to say how p~ssed of I am and why I am leaving but knowing that no-one upstairs will take any notice.

I know how you feel.

I'm seeing out my current engagement (due out 2007) so at least I'll come out with something for the effort I've put in over the years rather than PVR now.

To be honest if it was financially viable for me to come out the RAF now I would, I've had enough and I'm definitely not the only one.

[Green Bottle 2]

A good Heading,

a little unfair to bunch all SATCOs together. I know of at least one SATCO who has forced the Sqn planners to take ATC into account in the planning of their flying programmes. He indeed stood up and said we can't do this safetly and more importantly was listened to and it was acted upon.

GB2

I'm not the SATCO mentioned or one of his staff!

[Snapdragon]

Its all well and good saying the hierarchy should grow a set and stand up to the BO**OCKS that goes on, however who do they stand up to... the senior, senior officers just tell the ministers what they want to hear, Sqn Ldr So&So or Wg Cdr So& So will tell the truth and then be SH*T Canned for the rest of Eternity. Its the Government that need to wake up and see that there is massive overstretch in all branches and trades, officers and airmen alike. Yes people make do and "Rise to the Challenge" however if that puts a single life on the line whether he be a pilot or a gate guard then heads should roll at the highest level.

Rant over, Mr V.V. Overstretched

[Tourist]

Snapdragon.
Putting your life on the line is what the military is expected to do when ordered. Get over it. Thats why we get well paid. You dont get to choose the orders you like and the ones you dont. The choice we are lucky enough to have since we are not conscripts is the right to leave at any time. If you truly believed your life was at risk due to a stupid order you would leave. That suggests to me that you are just wingeing.:yuk:

[Stan Bydike]

Tourist,

Funny old thing. a lot of us are leaving.

[Snapdragon]

Tourist, you seem to think I am some Chicken Sh*t that doesnt like military life and wants to whinge and moan all the time. I have been on many active service dets and did not whinge in the least as I am a member of a can-do/ get the job done organisation, with 5 * hotels etc. All I am saying is that if there is a policy of giving more money to berieved black lesbian groups because they shout louder to the civil service than to the military because we shut the fu*k up and get the job done then there is something seriously wrong.

[timex]

In the Army if a deployed logistics base is being set up the RLC will send out fuels specialists, supply controllers, supply specialists, plant ops and many others whereas in the RAF many of those RLC tasks can be carried out by one Supplier, so thats all we send. As a Supplier I can work in many of the 'parts' that the RLC has but an equivalent RLC storeman can only do part of my trade.

Helpfull Stacker, quite right, however the point being made is that they also do guard duties and all sorts of niff naff and triv. I see TSW guys on a daily basis and know how hard they work.

[Stan Bydike]

Snapdragon,

Rest my case surely.

[Snapdragon]

SB Absolutely, I'm leaving soon, Too much devotion not enough top cover!! P.S. Anyone going CFS.. Career suicide despite what they say. Unless you are a flyer!

[The Helpful Stacker]

Helpfull Stacker, quite right, however the point being made is that they also do guard duties and all sorts of niff naff and triv. I see TSW guys on a daily basis and know how hard they work.

Timex - The piece you quoted has nothing to do with TSW. I gave the example as 'deployed logistics base' or DSG as its known in the RAF and it appears the point has sailed well over your head.

The point is the Army has redundancy built into it because so many people are required to do the tasks that in the light blue world we have one person doing.

The Army have Plant Ops for driving forklifts - A Supplier can do this.
The Army have Supply Controllers to handle demands and issues - That same Supplier can also do that.
The Army has Pet Ops for issuing POL - There's that one Supplier on det again.
The Army has Supply Specialists for doing R&D duties - Guess what, that 1 Supplier can do that too.

So already you can see that for every 4 RLC storemen deployed to theatre we may have one RAF Supplier doing the same job for us. Of course many Suppliers (and other trades) also have LGV licences so that another bit of multi-trading by us whereas the Army would have one 'specialist' for that function.

As for,
I see TSW guys on a daily basis and know how hard they work

I'm not quite sure how relevant that is. If you see them on a daily basis then I assume you are at Stafford which I'm sure you realise is not where the majority of TSW work is performed, hence their 'lodger' status.

I can assure you that although I am no longer on TSW I know from experience that when deployed away unlike the other lodger units at Stafford (2MT, 5001Sqn, MCSU) TSW very rarely fulfil a MOB function with all the 'luxuries' that go with it, showers, fresh cooked food, air conditioned tents etc. More often than not they are deployed in small dets very near the FEBA, operating FARP's with no 1st line security other than that they provide themselves. As I'm sure some of the SH crews will confirm, they wouldn't really want to stop the night at most of the delightful spots they pick up fuel from.

[Pontius Navigator]

Tourist you must have different T&Cs from the rest of us. You do NOT have the right to leave. You have the right to request to leave and you have a right to leave after a given period of time. For the old and bold it is 6 months. Played properly this really means just about immediately.

For the younger element it could be as much as 3 years with plenty of dirty and sticky jobs twixted pen and bowler.

[timex]

Helpful Stacker


I'm not quite sure how relevant that is. If you see them on a daily basis then I assume you are at Stafford which I'm sure you realise is not where the majority of TSW work is performed, hence their 'lodger' status.

Wrong......Operational elsewhere nothing to do with the RAF. We'll just have to disagree on manning levels for storemen.

[Tourist]

Snapdragon,

"I am a member of a can-do/ get the job done organisation"

please accept my humblest apologies, I thought you were a crab

[The Helpful Stacker]

We'll just have to disagree on manning levels for storemen.

What has that got to do with TSW?

'Storemen' are civilians, Suppliers are service personnel. This is why 9 times out of 10 its a right git getting stuff out of Clothing Stores as its usually a 'storeman' running the place.




(Yes, I know, an obvious bite but hey ho).

[Door Slider]

Stacker,
Your right fella, there is no way I would like to spend the night at G40, going back to BBK was always a pleasure!!

Sipovo would be nice though, no 2 can rule unlike the Army Barmy Metal Factory.

[limbangmogul]

So wearing headress and having to stand in a position where, when fired upon you can retaliate with out having to shoot the sangar wall to create a hole. Sarcasm i know do apologise but come on is this all we really need to woory about. Yep police out there are anal two can's smells i know. Although i would admit in the sense of being the RAF and becoming Army, not even the really dumb pongo officers are dull enough to say you can only get in the bar if you have meal ticket, to only then be served beer with your beer card, yet never validate either when entering the mess. Must be for the force protection guys to understand eh. The only thing I found strange while being on det there was the amount of whinging about the Air assets and crews out there, seems strange as being an Air station, surely all trades establishments and smoking areas are actually only there to support such assets and crews. We all no we work better, when pissed and love to lie in bed til we have bed sores, alas some people like you say are just there for a career boost, whether that be dining with the right people or messing around the peole that really matter mainly those below them. So having said this on the subject of RAF becoming Army, give over having spent along time in service on Army establishments, and various dets, even there arne't as anal as the bandits running basra micro management at its finest......good show boys you really have done it again another nail in the coffin and the reputation thats not always the best even further down the swanny. Toodle pip no offence to anyone on this site you all know who aour threads are aimed at in the end the powers of the puppet masters. Any spelling is lack of schooling

[L1011GE]

While the techies are guarding the gate we could get a few coppers and a couple of infantrymen with time on their hands to pop down the flight line and give a hand with the less technical bits such as refuelling, towing, marshalling and the like. Maybe some pilots could lend a hand with the more technical bits.

I would like to know what your chosen trade is if you think that refueling, marshalling and towing are not technical???

And pilots doing the more technical stuff!!! now I know you are having a laugh...

[Tourist]

Please tell me you don't think refuelling, marshalling and towing are technical!

Refueling:- Remove cap. Attach Hose. Fill. Repeat first two in Reverse.

Marshalling:- Stand still (usually in the wrong place re prevailing wind) Wave arms. (actual motion unimportant, the pilot is ignoring you so he can get it on the right spot.)

Towing:- Like formation flying except really slow and attached.

:E

[HOODED]

Toutist, knew that would happen and you didn't dissapoint. Love to see you in a tractor trying to put a Tornado on a detuner or 18 Harriers into a small hangar. I've done both and some formation flying as well. Guess what the flyings easy in comparison or then again maybe I chose the wrong path! Still is the RAF becoming Army? well I'm off so maybe that tells you my thoughts on the subject though my decision invoved the Navy more than the Army. The RAF is still full of good eggs but the fun has long gone. All a bit sad really, still the Armadillo vid made me smile.:ok:

[Tourist]

To be fair, it was asking for banter, and I notice that you didn't try to defend the "technical nature" of refueling:ok:

[exleckie]

Tourist,

Please tell me you don't think refuelling, marshalling and towing are technical!

Depends. What happens if you have an indication problem during fuelling. What happens if you can't refuel a certain group, what about discrepancies from bowser reading to A/C reading, who will sort that out?
Pilots think that they should ignore marshallers? Perhaps that is why there are so many tip strike incidents etc where marshallers are ignored.

Have you ever tried towing an A/C? Have you ever tried pushing one into the dispersal? Have you ever had to fishtail A/C together?

Refueling:- Remove cap. Attach Hose. Fill. Repeat first two in Reverse.

See above, but to you it's just like filling up your car. Well it isn't.

Marshalling:- Stand still (usually in the wrong place re prevailing wind) Wave arms. (actual motion unimportant, the pilot is ignoring you so he can get it on the right spot.)



You have obviously never worked in an environment where aircrew HAVE to rely on what they are being told via hand signals.
Would you ignore the "arm waving" saying that #2 engine is on fire while taxying into the wrong slot because you are ignoring your marshaller?

Towing:- Like formation flying except really slow and attached.

.

It is slow for a reason and it is attached for a reason. Perhaps we should stop towing aircraft around and get you to come and move them at silly o'clock in the morning by starting up and taxying into the wrong place. I would really love to see you push an aircraft into position and watch you make a hash of it.

[timex]

Anyway, shouldn't you lot be on Guard duty or something...........

[L1011GE]

Refueling:- Remove cap. Attach Hose. Fill. Repeat first two in Reverse.

guess you are a chipmunk man or an mt driver...

[Blacksheep]

Irony L1011GE, its called irony...:rolleyes:

Apart from being a mender these past 39 years, I can also shoot a man's eyeball out his head at 500 metres. But what's that got to do with guard duty? Benders for bending, menders for mending and guards for guarding, thats how it should be. When a full infantry attack comes in, I'd be more than willing to grab a weapon and start shootong back, but standing by the gate stiffening up and passing the time of day with zobbitts when I could be off somewhere else doing a bit of mending, is simply an unjustified waste of the tax payers' money.

[Tourist]

Well, lets face it, I'm only a pilot because I failed the marshalling, fueling and towing aptitudes at Biggin Hill:rolleyes:

[timex]

Just a simple question, but why are you on Guard?

Could it possibly be because no-one else is available?

Its your part of the camp?

Your "supposed" to be protecting your mates. your A/C and ultimately yourselves.

As for two beers, good idea. Why should you be p****d on Ops. also drinking beer in those temps isn't big or clever especially if you are on a shift system.

Wearing hats, well if you havent got the sense to keep a floppy hat on in temps over 40 c then maybe you do have to be told.


If this offends anyone then so be it, its not meant to.

IF you can't do the job tell someone it is Flight Safety.

[JessTheDog]

Is someone going to tell those Armadillo lads that they should have been waring hats (and pretty much everything else)?!?!?

The Army tend to know when to apply the rules and when to ease them. The RAF do not.

[L1011GE]

Well, lets face it, I'm only a pilot because I failed the marshalling, fueling and towing aptitudes at Biggin Hill

So you are a Pilot, tourist ?? obviously one of the very few who does not appreciate the technical abilities of "his" groundcrew.

[Tourist]

To be honest there's loads of us who don't. Some just pretend out of politeness. We know that you're sensitive souls. Need to keep the talent happy and all that. I mean, where would we find anyone else who can hold a hosepipe if we lose you guys?

[Pontius Navigator]

Pigs:

Was it aircrew or groundcrew that got the Vulcan at Akrotiri or the VC10 sitting on their arses? I don't know of any Vulcan refuelling pigs perpetrated by the aircrew who were responsible for all landaway refuels.

Ever tried towing a taildragger? The brakeman can see the tug in a Shack. This explains why the tail of the Shack in Manchester science Museum never flew on that airframe. It was pulled off one at Lossie.:D

[truckiebloke]

jess the dog quote ''The Army tend to know when to apply the rules and when to ease them. The RAF do not.''

ITS THE ARMY MAKING UP THESE STUPID RULES IN BASRAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[The Helpful Stacker]

ITS THE ARMY MAKING UP THESE STUPID RULES IN BASRAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yep, same as they do everywhere.

Unfortunately they have to make these rules for the benefit of the lowest common denominator, junior officers with access to too much Slidovich (as was the case in Bosnia).

I wonder if anyone has started drinking a shot of AL11 mixed with half a litre of coke yet? It wouldn't be the first time its happened.

:rolleyes:

[exleckie]

Well, lets face it, I'm only a pilot because I failed the marshalling, fueling and towing aptitudes at Biggin Hill



:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:



To be honest there's loads of us who don't. Some just pretend out of politeness. We know that you're sensitive souls. Need to keep the talent happy and all that. I mean, where would we find anyone else who can hold a hosepipe if we lose you guys?


I think loads of us should actually read, " the small minded minority of us"

Lets face it, WE rule your world, you don't rule ours. Without us you do not fly. UAVs don't need pilots but they still need engineers. With JSF the last manned fighter project, survival of the fittest shall dictate that the techies will continue to rule the skies. Pilots are an endangered species so you have every right to be bitter about your lot in life.

We are polite to you because we are polite people, not arrogant unlike some of your brethren.

You wouldn't survive a week on a flight line. Why don't you apply for some work experience and then slate everyone afterwards.

Didn't think so.

[WE Branch Fanatic]

Tourist

You'll soon need a bigger reel at this rate.

:}

[Tourist]

I'll stop now. Its just cruelty to taunt the afflicted

"techies will continue to rule the skies"
Just beautiful

[Maple 01]

he's spot-on about the UAVs though, I'm looking at the last generation of 'meat pilots' - looks like Sandys was right after all

[Spotting Bad Guys]

When UAVs come batting through my airspace I would rather there was a pilot at the controls.....:D

SBG

[BEagle]

The UK CAA’s CAP 722 which covers UAVs is quite interesting. For example, under ‘Operator Qualifications’, we find:

Policy

In anticipation of wider operations of UAVs in Groups 3-5 (see Chapter 1), DAP is considering using the word 'crew' to mean flight crew, that is, the UAV Commander and the UAV-p, each of whom is a crew member.

UAV Commander Every flight of a UAV must be under the command of a UAV Commander. The UAV Commander is a qualified person who is in overall charge of, and responsible for, a particular UAV flight or flights.
The UAV Commander can:
• be in direct control of the vehicle by remote controls; or
• co-located with the UAV-p; or
• monitoring the state and progress of the vehicle at the flight deck location in the GCS.

UAV-p The UAV-p is a qualified person who is actively exercising remote control of a non-autonomous UAV flight, or monitoring an autonomous UAV flight. The UAV-p may or may not be the UAV Commander.
The UAV-p must meet the training, qualifications, proficiency and currency requirements stated in the approved Flight Operations Manual of the operating organisation.

The UAV Commander is tasked with overall responsibility for the operation and safety of the vehicle in flight and must be fully trained and qualified to assume these responsibilities. The UAV Commander therefore assumes the same operational and safety responsibilities as those of the captain or pilot-in-command of a piloted aircraft performing a similar mission in similar airspace. A UAV Commander may simultaneously assume the prescribed responsibilities for more than one UAV when this can be accomplished safely by directing activities of one or more UAV-p.

For all flights in Groups 3-5, the UAV Commander must be licensed and appropriately rated according to airspace classification and meteorological conditions/flight rules.

This may mean an instrument rating appropriately endorsed 'UAV'.

*that is, outside segregated airspace

[The Helpful Stacker]

techies will continue to rule the skies

Only for as long as the parts last, then you all come crawling to Supply....

;)

[glum]

Crawling?

Don't think so, we learned how to walk upright well before initial training!

Is it true suppliers aren't allowed more than a week's leave or they need re-training?

[The Helpful Stacker]

Is it true suppliers aren't allowed more than a week's leave or they need re-training?

Seems to be the case with the high quality, NFI in doing any work LAC's coming out of Halton at the mo.

:rolleyes:

Next time you go into Supply ask for one of the bitter and twisted Suppliers, you should get a bit better service once the moaning stops.

;)

[teeteringhead]

A question for all of those who believe that UAVs can/will replace manned aircraft:

"Would you and/or your family be prepared to fly off on holiday in an aircraft without a pilot?"


... and if not...... why not??

[Maple 01]

Looks like I've got a bite now!

When the MoD finally figures out they can replace High maint Officer pilots that cost millions to train with SACs that only need a PC and 'Combat Flight Sim 3’ you’ll all be out of a job and you know it! Knock-on effect is that if there is no need for aircrew officers there are no need for anyone to be commissioned. Station Commander post re-ranked to WO level

Massive savings across the three services, closure of Messes and no need to pay retention bonuses. Sell off surplus OMQ. Transfer Cranwell to the private sector as a business school

I feel a GEMs coming on………

[The Helpful Stacker]

Maple 01 - Oh no you've got it all wrong, we'll always need commissioned officers.

Someone needs to stand at the front with a sword on Freedom Parades.

[Climebear]

Sell off surplus OMQ.

All ready done - we dont' own any of them anymore.

That wonderful Tory government utilised a concept of mathematics that must have originated in H2G2 and somehow concluded that we could sell off all our quarters, then rent them back and still pay for the maintenance ourselves and this would be cost effective! doh!

Any profits from sale go straight into the Japanese economy!

[The Helpful Stacker]

That wonderful Tory government utilised a concept of mathematics that must have originated in H2G2 and somehow concluded that we could sell off all our quarters, then rent them back and still pay for the maintenance ourselves and this would be cost effective! doh!

Of course a Labour Government would never do that, or would they?

Snatch wagons, sold to civvy company for £3000 a piece, brought back for £6000 a piece.

Hmmmmmm

Lets not make this a party politics thing eh? Its a government thing or more specifically a Civil Service thing.

[Tourist]

Ok, I have to ask since nobody else has. Whats a "snatch wagon"?
Where can I buy one?

[exleckie]

Tourist,

it isn't a wagon full of sn@tch, It's a vehicle which has been..............

Well you should know this because all of the refuellers, marshallers and aircraft towers I have spoken to know.

Did you fail your "Bigger picture about the way the forces work and their associated equipment test?":E

[Tourist]

If a fail saved me from becoming one of them, then long may I continue to fail.
You have to admit, the moniker snatch wagon does conjure up a great image

[exleckie]

Absolutely.

Despite you being an SSIU, can't knock your humour.:ok:

[The Helpful Stacker]

A 'Snatch Wagon' is one of those armoured Land Rovers that has been used for years in Ulster and are now found in Iraq.

They get their name from a task which they are commonly used for which is driving into a crowd of trouble makers to allow the soldiers in the back to snatch a ring leader or suspect that has been pointed out by top cover surveillance.

[Chalkstripe]

My apologies if this has alrady been addressed, and I'm not trying to be clever/facetious etc.

I thought that the RAF Regiment had been formed to guard airfields - I know that there job has evolved somewhat but isn't that what they are there for? Or are they unavailable because they are being utilised in a n other role.

As stated earlier would like to know

Cheers (ignorant) CS

[The Helpful Stacker]

I thought that the RAF Regiment had been formed to guard airfields....

Yes they are there to guard the airfield, but not 1st line defence (on the wire, so to speak), that has always been the responsibility of us 'guins'.

The RAF Regiment perform a role akin to the infantry when guarding MOB's, roving patrols in depth, base plate checks and stop and search away from the base. They are also supposed to support FARP's (though I can't say I've ever seen any RAF Regt hanging around TSW sites).

Obviously at the moment they also perform the air defence role but this is soon to be relinquished to the RA with the units re-rolling as field sqns.

[Maple 01]

During the 'Cold War' the plan at a top secret radar site somewhere in East Anglia was for the station personnel to hold the site for the first 12 hours - guard force to consist mainly of 'the expendable' admin types with a few tecs and operators to raise the tone in the guard-hut. After that it was the problem of the TA or Army - and proper order too, we had better things to do than 'stagging on in sangars' whatever that might mean.

So either way, historically, Rocks or Army, guarding was an SEP